Because of a problem emailing Dan at Moutain Molds I had sent him my request for his ideas on a mold for .38-55, specifically for my Wesson and Harrington Target Model and Winchester Crazy Horse Commemorative, I sent a hard copy (letter) with that request. Got an email from him this morning (he sent it last night), he said I am about the fifth person to request such a mold. In his email Dan said that he will have such design on the webpage in the next week. Anyone interested should be able to find it there soon. By the way, I had asked for a mold to cast about .380 or .381 to suit the oversized Winchester, but because of Dan's computer assisted manufacturing setup, I believe he can make each design in about any size you want. I think Dan and his Mountain Molds outfit is going to be quite a resource for us.

Gotta go cast some bullets.
God save the republic. Ernie

Hi Aladin. My Target Model measures .3775, and I have been using an RCBS .378 sizer die, more to true the bullet up than for sizing. The big Lyman mold casts between .3785 and .379, depending on how soft the catch as catch can alloy is. Shooting those 340 grain bullets is a blast, but I can almost outrun them to the target.
I know that most folks seem to think very highly of RCBS products, but I think Lyman makes better sizing dies. Midway was out of the Lyman when I ordered.

Best, Ernie

Well now, I think the 38-55 barrel for your Buff Classic would be an excellent choice. I have the Lyman 378674 mold, single cavity, that they list as especially suited to single shot rifles. They are absolutely right about that. With 27 to 30 grains of Pyrodex P, and 1.7 grains Red Dot against the primer, Winchester LR primer, I'm getting ten shot hundred yard groups of 2.0 to 2.5 inches. I use a Lyman Alaskan scope with post reticle. The bullets are cast of almost pure lead and seem to turn out quite well even without added tin. I cast at about an indicated 750* on the Lyman thermometer, use a dipper from a Lee pot, and (shudder, don't tell the experts) always return the sprue's to the pot after each cast. Sometimes have to slow down casting as that big bullet makes the mold pretty hot.

The rifle has almost no throat at all, and the bullets must be seated to the crimp groove, leaving little room for powder. Using a wad between powder and bullet base works very well for me, especially using wads cut from thick styrofoam plates that I buy at a local dollar store. I would like to try some factory fiber wads someday.

Some day I would like to hunt deer with the TM, using either friend DT's RCBS 275 grain bullets, or those from the new Mountain Molds mold I hope to order soon. The RCBS bullets group about the same as those neat Lyman's, 32 grains of Reloader 12, Winchester LR's, wheelweights, no added tin, and seated to the crimp groove. Both bullets sized in the .378 RCBS sizer and lubed with NRA formula.

What do you think of brass for bullet molds, Aladin? I've never had a brass mold but sure would love to try.

God save the Republic
Ernie

Sorry, forgot to confirm that the twist is 1-18". It seems to do OK by those long 340 grain Lymans.
Ernie

Ernie IMO the brass would have the same advantages of the steel in terms of heat cycle [not cooling/heating rapidly like the aluminum-- which translates into better dimensional uniformity also] and would not require the care of the steel in terms of rust prevention. Methinks go for it.

Your bullet appears to be a baby Postell [378674]. If I may bother for some more Q's, does the nose section engrave the rifling when chambering, ie- actually ride the land tops? What kinda brass do you use and what length does it come? Been some talk about the 38/55 brass coming short in length.

That's good shooten with the low power scope. Opps another-- can you tell/measure how deep the rifling is? The Buff is only 2 thou...

Thanks for your thoughts on the brass molds, Aladin. I'm pretty sure that's what I going to order.

The nose does not engrave the lands, in fact seems to measure only .367 cast soft. I have not measured bore diameter or groove depth, but will attempt to do so this coming weekend when I have a five dayer. Is that a word? Brass is Winchester and is definately short for this chamber, trimming may never be necessary. Thought about some of Buffalo's lengthened cases and may eventually buy some, just to see if the accuracy is affected.

I sometimes refer to the 378674 as the 38 Postell. Lyman doesn't call it that as far as I can tell, so it may be a wrong or at least partially inaccurate term, but it sounds good.

If through some evil agency I was ever limited to one long gun, this one would be one of four finalists.

Adios, God save the Republic
Ernie

Gents,
I am one of those casters that emailed asking about a mould for my 38-55 as well as my 38-56.
Both have bores that slugged out at .380, well oversize due many years of service I suppose.
My 38-55 is a 1893 Marlin and my 38-56 in a 1886 Winchester. I haven't had any luck except making keyholes in targets with my Lyman mould and would be very willing to try one of Dan's efforts.
I wonder if he gives group discounts?
45nut

45Nut, which Lyman mold do you have for the 38's? Some folks say the 378674 casts about .381 with wheelweights and a bit of tin added, though I will confess not to have tried this myself. Friend DT ordered a Saeco mold from the Buffalo Arms special order section that cast .381 plus a bit from straight wheelweights that might be worth a try, though the custom from Dan at MM sounds more intrigueing, intreging, intreagin', uh, interesting to me. Group discount sounds like heaven for the kind of stuff he offers. I just hope he can make a good livin' at whatever price he has to charge.

Some folks say that Lyman 378674 is especially good for the .38-55.

Best, Ernie

Dummy. That last line is supposed to say .38-56.

Ernie

Aladin,

Above you mention "blocking the mold open".

Interesting idea! I imagine you are placing a shim of some kind between the mold block halves and casting eggs? Then sizing to fit an oversize barrel?

Tell us more!

Good evening,
Forrest

Aladin,

By the way, in consideration of rebarreling your Buff Classic, think about going to the 44/63 Ballard with a 16 twist. (Sometimes known as the 444 Marlin but without the terribly slow spin)

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest I used to use pads of aluminum foil placed next to the pins to increase as cast dia. Beagle refined the idea using that tape you buy from homecenters-- the type used on air cond ducts I think. Bullets that are uniform shoot fine, even if their a couple thou otta round.

The 444 is a good choice-- I'm inclined to stay with the 45/70. First choice a 16 twist, yet not alot of barrel makers use such.. mostly likely an 18 when it's said and done.

Gents,
I believe my Lyman is the 375228,but it is out in the shop (brrrrrr-very cold) and I am in the house(mmmmmm-tv-football & woodstove) and really have not tried shimming or lapping the mould due lack of correct tape and/or lapping compound.
It could be the Lyman375449 but I am sure it is not the 375674. I need to fire up the pot this weekend and drop some .510's for my soon to be 500A-Square from a borrowed mould so I can send it back to the gentleman that lent it to me...I bought an NEI .50 cal mould for myself so just having a hundred from his mould will do nicely for a trial. Besides a hundred fifty's ought to last a good long while out of that beast. I may commission Dan for a 700gr .510 down the road,but will give you guys time to get his production rate a little slower as it would truly be a niche mould in a niche rifle. I am way over my head at the present anyway due the various rifles/pistols camped about my abode not getting fair range time
they deserve--but don't ask me to sell any ! I have saved a few from closet goblins,a few from pawn shop hell and a few from less deserving souls that don't appreciate them for what they are...masterpieces in metal in wood. And then I have had a small number built to my specs for no reason other that "just because" like my SMLE in 45-70....that said I would much rather have more time ,money and range time but I will settle for a few less than the museum in Cody 45nut

Mountain Molds has a new 38-55 mold design created by me which will answer most all of your needs. Contact Dan, I think he will be happy to accomadate you.

I just looked at it, 45 2.1. It looks pretty much like what I had in mind. Thanks a bunch.
I'll make my final measurements this weekend and get the order off.

Where would we be without indepenent bullet designer's? Right back where we were a year or two ago.

Forrest...Take a look at castpics. I wrote up my experiments and Sundog has posted it. You can usually pick up .003-004" on a mould by shimming with alimun tape and it's semipermanent.

I first started messing with it to get .432+ bullets for the SBHs but it works on rifle moulds as well. There, you can increase the bullet diameter or nose diameter or both. I've used it on some of Lyman's old BP designs that had small noses and got good accuracy. I've also upped the diameter on the bullets for my 38/55 with good success.

Give it a try and if not satisfied, peel the tape out and go back to square one./beagle

I slugged the W&R Target Model this morning and sent off an order to Dan for one of his brass molds. I already knew the groove diameter was .3775" or thereabouts, and that's what I got again, but the bore diameter of .373-374" surprised me. That's some shallow grooves.
Asked for .380" body and .374" nose, measurements to be with wheelweight metal. That way, maybe pure or almost pure lead will still be large enough to be useable. Because of my neanderthal lack of trust in electronic security, the order went via the mails, mit money order.

Given the very large bore diameter, the accuracy I have been getting with Big Lyman and it's .367 nose is pretty surprising.

Ernie

Aladin,

you say:

I used to use pads of aluminum foil placed next to the pins to increase as cast dia..

me:

OK! As I said before, an interesting idea. Certainly no reason it shouldn't work just fine, especially with some kind of GC or filler that serves the same purpose as a check so that gasses won't pass through the undersize sides, as it were.

you;

The 444 is a good choice-- I'm inclined to stay with the 45/70. First choice a 16 twist, yet not a lot of barrel makers use such.. most likely an 18 when it's said and done.

me;

I have not researched who all makes what twist barrels. Some require special order for twists faster than what they consider "standard". I have a 16-twist 44 barrel from Bison Barrels in Spotted Horse, Wyoming on my FBW. And it is a fine item.

I have a 16 twist Montana Rifleman 45/70 barrel on the Red Willow Ballard that keeps the LONG, LONG 572 grain "Gunn Long Range" (as modified) point on right through 1000 yards. And I have just purchased another 16-twist 44 barrel from Montana this month for the CPA Stevens 44 1/2.

In other words, these barrels are available. I'm enthusiastic about the relatively fast twist as you know. I'll never go back to an 18.

Good evening,
Forrest

Beagle,

you say;

Take a look at castpics..

me;

Thanks, I'll go look!

At this time I don't have any bullets that are markedly undersize to experiment on. But I'll keep the idea for that time I do get one.

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest I checked out the barrel site. Looks fine. Do you have any experience or othewise on Green Mountain barrels? Some say their very good in BPCR calibers.

Are their 44 and 45 calibers narrow land or wide land styles? I'd guess narrow due to the button rifling.

http://www.montanarifleman.com/index.html

Aladin:

you ask;

Do you have any experience or othewise on Green Mountain barrels? ..

me;

Nope. But I have seen their ad in some of the singleshot publications and they seem quite reputable. I don't know anyone out here who has one.

Lots of the fellows I shoot with swear by Badger Barrels and they're not bad at all. However, I do think they are one of the barrel makers who consider 18 as fast enough for a 45.

you;

Are their 44 and 45 calibers narrow land or wide land styles?..

me;

Montana Rifleman barrels are rifled with (as you say) narrow riflings. I've been up there to see it done. The man runs a good shop.

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest check out the barrel twist calculator link on the Montana site. Comes back with a 1.52" 45 needing only 20.9" of twist.

Now I've looked into this issue in depth and understand those are basic calculators. Wingryo sez about the same, albeit that site does factor in alloy and ogive profile.

I do agree though-- 16 is preferable.

Forrest....Beleive it or not, the seam sides pick up a little also. Don't tell me how. Maybe the hot metal attempting to escape hits the cold air and hardens. They don't turn out bad at all.

This is aluminum tape used for air conditioning ducts with an adhesive backing....measures .002".

The same tape is used by your aircraft mechanics to prevent chaffing so that may be a source for you as you fly. A 6" square peice is enough to do 20 moulds or so./beagle

Aladin:

you say;

Check out the barrel twist calculator link on the Montana site. Comes back with a 1.52" 45 needing only 20.9" of twist..

me;

Yes, I have seen these calculations as well. Very nice too.

On the other hand I had this long, long series of tests with many different bullets, looking for actual ROUND holes. They were very tough to find.

Finally I settled on an LBT design of 350 grains as the best the barrel would stabilize and I think it was certainly due in great part to the superiour aerodynamic shape ol' Verl machined into his mold.

I was shooting a 40/65 with an 18 twist barrel, trying for the heaviest bullet it would keep point-first. I had to forget anything over about 350 grains (except the LBT). Nothing actually key-holed but those nice 400 grain Lyman and RCBS bullets were yawing well over 10 degrees at 500 meters. I was/am amazed they were as accurate as they proved to be, even so!

you;

I do agree though-- 16 is preferable..

me;

There you go!

.. Really though. This kind of shooting isn't like the fast stuff you do in 30 caliber. The "over stabilization" of bullets really doesn't seem to be a problem where as understabilized bullets take off like a covy of quail: No telling where they might land!

Good evening,
Forrest

Beagle:

you say;

Beleive it or not, the seam sides pick up a little also. Don't tell me how. Maybe the hot metal attempting to escape hits the cold air and hardens. They don't turn out bad at all.

me;

Amazing!

you;

This is aluminum tape used for air conditioning ducts with an adhesive backing....measures .002".

The same tape is used by your aircraft mechanics to prevent chaffing so that may be a source for you as you fly. A 6" square peice is enough to do 20 moulds or so..

me;

Thanks. I WILL keep it in mind. A fellow never know when a otherwise good mold might need a little help.

Good evening,
Forrest

Aladin:

Are you there?

I have been doing some checking with Dan, of Mountain Molds, as per the title of this thread.

I am very interested in getting a brass mold of some kind. The one rifle I do not have a good long range mold for at this time is the M1895 Marlin in 40/65.

I sent him a sample SAECO #640 for weight/length and a 44 caliber Mos "Postell" for nose design.

Dan received these samples but unfortunately says he cannot cut such long bullets or copy the Postell contour for nose shape.

He says further that such things will be possible in the future when tooling is more complete.

Good evening,
Forrest

Aladin,

There you are!

Sure. The future is always there.

Have I mentioned David Mos' molds to you at all?

This fellow recently moved to Cody to work with Steve and Ron Long over there at Ballard Rifles. His tools are lathe bored in iron blocks.

I have two of his tools in 44 caliber that are of such high quality that a fellow can almost justify casting with them just because they look so fine and cast so perfectly.

Fortunately, they shoot very well too.

Good morning,
Forrest

Yeup Forrest, David is on the radar screen. Is this move to Cody quite recent?

Aladin,

I believe he moved there this last summer after passing through on vacation, seeing the country and understanding that Arkansas would never match up with Wyoming for all the well-known reasons.

I have been intending to go see them all over there at the rifle factory but no trip has sent me there in recent times except for quick passenger pick-ups or drop-offs. I will have to wait for the old standby trip to come long, and it will one of these days.

I do wonder how David and Ron are doing together in the same shop. Interesting combination there.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest I dunno the two fellas-- just a phone converse with David one time. Seemed like a decent fella.

His molds-- the blocks are RCBS right? And he adds a hold down finger ala LBT right?

I sure wish I knew/understood how he cuts those molds so precise. I think he uses a lathe sans CNC right?

Aladin:

you say;

I dunno the two fellas-- just a phone converse with David one time. Seemed like a decent fella..

me;

Ah! Well, Ron Long is one of the fellows I first met down in Colorado during the 80s when Coors was giving the Scheutzenfests there in Golden. He went on to design a "Ron Long" version of the 40/65 for BPCR shooting there in the Denver area. I don't know it all but now-a-days he is deeply involved with the reproduction of Winchester High-Walls there at the Ballard Rifle Company in Cody. Ron (I think) has machined some bullet molds of his own design, made to fit the 40/65 chambers and throats of the rifles he has made for sale and used himself. He has written for some of the singleshot publications as well.

you;

His molds-- the blocks are RCBS right?

me;

Nope. They were at one time and I have one on the RCBS style blocks but he then went to making his own. I have one of these as well. It wouldn't cast due to being made for the bottom-pour croud: It had inadiquate venting grooves for ladle pouring. Instead of returning it to him I vented it myself (That is another story) and it now works just so fine I can only hope you too have such a tool to use now and then.

you;

And he adds a hold down finger ala LBT right?

Nope. He makes the sprue plates of 3/16s steel, normal pivot screws and no finger hold-fast as in the LBT design.

you;

I sure wish I knew/understood how he cuts those molds so precise. I think he uses a lathe sans CNC right?

me;

Yes! I do believe that is his method. How it is he manages to make the sizes so dead-nuts accurate is amazing; I've never heard of anyone else in the business who could even come close to his normal production tollerances.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest methinks he has some specialty tracer system made-- probably using very stiff boring bars. Maybe he uses a diamond tipped bar which negates flex? This is what I always hear about boring bars-- they flex and ruin runout.

I've given some thought on how to make a mold cutting device similar to the kind that copies keys at the hardward store? Any ideas?

Aladin:

you say:

Methinks he has some specialty tracer system made-- probably using very stiff boring bars. Maybe he uses a diamond tipped bar which negates flex? This is what I always hear about boring bars-- they flex and ruin runout.

me:

Back in my mad days of youth I used to me a "Master" machinist.. I earned my living at it anyway working for various shops from the regular local sweat-shop to Rocket Research, making parts for Mars Landers.

The tricky thing about lathe bored molds would be as stiff a bar as could be managed equipped with as sharp a cutting edge as possible to minimize flex. Taking as shallow a bite as possible would also help. I have not seen it done but in modifying molds of my own I have found that you really MUST know where your bar is in relation to the cavity when the darn thing is inside the hole with the cutting edge invisible. This demands one of the various kinds of extremely accurate, repeatable indicators for table and crossfeed movements.

you;

I've given some thought on how to make a mold cutting device similar to the kind that copies keys at the hardware store? Any ideas?

me;

This is the pantograph type lathe. They are usually operated by a hydraulic system of some kind that guides the cutter along a programmed path of some kind. These type machines have been pretty much replaced by the "MC" or numerically controlled lathes. These machines are very reliable and repeat dead-nuts. This is the kind of machine Dan has on his web-site.

And, by the way, I think his method is the only way a fellow could really make a double cavity mold by the boring bar method. Any other way would result in a two cavity mold alright but identically the same bullets would not be produced..

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest my LBT 30 cal SP1R is a two cav and about as indentical for shape as two slugs could be. Identical no, but as close as the run of slugs for dimension in a lot per the fluctuations seen from different heat ranges of the mold-- not to mention precise closing of the mold each pour. I believe Smith used a tracer lathe working off wood forms-- do you know anything about his method?

I need to reface this LBT also, say 5-8 thou. How should I have this done? I've lapped mold surfaces and tops [Lee] but this mold is too valubable for such treatment.

You say your modifing your own molds. In what regard? Do you like the bore rider to engage the land tops at chambering or clear a thou or so?

Aladin:

you say:

My LBT 30 cal SP1R is a two cav and about as identical for shape as two slugs could be..

me;

Yes, I have had a couple of Verl's molds and they are very close to identity one to the other. He did use a tracer lathe which would require a pattern of some kind to trace from, as it were. But, no, I don't know exactly what his operation looked like to any degree of detail.

you;

I need to reface this LBT also, say 5-8 thou. How should I have this done?..

me;

If it were my mold it would be a simple fix: I'd just set the blocks up in the milling machine vise, dial the cavity to assure dead-nuts on for perpendicular squareness in both axis and make the skim cut across the top using a fly cutter and fairly course feed so that the top would retain visible cutter marks, not deep you understand, but there. These would provide some venting action I have found helpful for some tools. This would not be of such major concern for a 30 caliber mold as it seems to be for the bigger bullets though.

you;

I've lapped mold surfaces and tops [Lee] but this mold is too valuable for such treatment.

me;

I understand. Lapping, in any case is hard to do accurately when the object is to remove as much material as you have mentioned.

you;

You say your modifying your own molds. In what regard?

me;

One day I bought an NEI 458-555-PB "Gunn Long Range" for my 45/70. When it arrived I was surprized to find I had ordered a design configured primarily for black powder: It had LOTS of bore rider and two lube grooves actually cut into what is normally presumed to be the nose portion of the bullet. I loaded and used the bullet for awhile and it did OK but I really didn't want all that grease out there exposed to the world and I knew I didn't need so much grease for shooting smokeless either. I decided to bore out the unnecessary grooves and make the area thus enlarged into a proper bore rider nose.

I just set up the blocks in a four-jaw chuck, dialed the cavity and face right-on, made a boring bar out of a highspeed tool bit and bored out the mold to my liking.

Now, I have only basic machine tool skills, somewhat neglected these thirty years from being a pilot and I missed my dimension by 0.0015. The enlarged portion (about 0.200 ahead of the body) is bigger than I really intended by about 0.001. Fortunately the Ballard I use for shooting 45/70 has a powerful compound leverage closure that permits me to virtually breech-seat this bullet every time I chamber a cartridge. I was fortunate in this modification and leaned a lot in a short time.

you;

Do you like the bore rider to engage the land tops at chambering or clear a thou or so?

me;

Yes. Not only in the 45/70 shooting as described above but in the 44/63 rifles I shoot. This pretty much full engagement of bullet to the rifling my not be everyone's answer but I find that if the bullets are uniform and the amount of seating pressure also uniform from shot to shot I may count on consistent performance down range right out to the limits of my ability to hold and rifles' ability to shoot.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest I have a new custom sprue plate for my LBT otta 1/4 steel. Greatly enhances fillout at the mold base and I think taking that waves finish off the top would help me.

What I am considering is reversing the mold, ie-- drilling a hole in the opposite corner for the pivot screw and taking advantage of the unused surface area per wear. I have done this to a Lee which has worked out very well.

IMO bore riders have to engage, if they don't your negating the reason for having them. I don't understand the gap the BPCR mold cutters use-- supposedly for ease of chambering, but if a BLK load is working right a thou clearance isn't needed. And if it isn't working, I fail to see how a thou makes any difference. My theory is it's a feature passed on from yrs gone by-- like so much of the myth of BPCR is. So much of what they count for fact is just old wives tales.. IMO.

Once ya close that chamber the accuracy of the round is determined. Pre-shot alignment is what accuracy is about-- even more so with a cast bullet.