Aladin:

you say;

I have a new custom sprue plate for my LBT otta 1/4 steel. Greatly enhances fillout at the mold base and I think taking that waves finish off the top would help me.

me;

I bought my first LBT mold and when it arrived I was amazed at the flat-bottomed sprue fill holes in the plate which had been produced as a samping.

I tried using the tool for awhile as it was but I soon got tired of it all and made a new plate with conventional fill holes.. In an exchange with Verl he indicated that pouring bullets with a ladle was so old-fashioned that he was making all his tools suitable for use with bottom pour pot pretty much exclusively!

When I ordered other tools from him I made a pointof requesting regular sprue plates, much to his amazment I still use the ladle method!

you;

What I am considering is reversing the mold, ie-- drilling a hole in the opposite corner for the pivot screw and taking advantage of the unused surface area per wear. I have done this to a Lee which has worked out very well.

me;

Sure. That should work fine. Low risk too.

you;

In my opinion bore riders have to engage, if they don't your negating the reason for having them. I don't understand the gap the BPCR mold cutters use-- supposedly for ease of chambering, but if a BLK load is working right a thou clearance isn't needed. And if it isn't working, I fail to see how a thou makes any difference. My theory is it's a feature passed on from yrs gone by-- like so much of the myth of BPCR is. So much of what they count for fact is just old wives tales..

me;

We've touched on this subject before in regard to bullets bumping up during firing. My idea like yours: the initial alignment of bullet to bore is mightly important. However, I would add that the initial resistance to bullet movement during firing also has to be as consistent as possible such that SD be reduced to as low a number as possible. This need is answered at least in part (IMO) by forcing the bullet into the orgin of rifling to some minor degree.

I have done experimental shooting with bullets of the same design but slightly smaller in size (due to poor heat management during casting for example) and compared them to "Match" quality bullets over long ranges. I found they shoot to an entirly different zero than the full size bullets. No surprize really, but important to track during the loading process.

you;

Once ya close that chamber the accuracy of the round is determined. Pre-shot alignment is what accuracy is about-- even more so with a cast bullet.

me;

Amen.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest your point about initial resistance is well taken. I've run a series of tests with a Lee 180 that I made to PB. Mold works like a custom per the polishing and additions I made, but it serves a couple purposes. Having only two lube grooves it carries only around .17 gr of lube-- which separates the concoctions of mine that work well from the not so good ones. My current batch works fine at around 1580's with not a drop of leading using Blue Dot. Then I also experiment taper sizing this bullet is a Lee push thru-- running that slug in part way and tapping it back out to acccomplish the taper I want. I put a mass of toweling in the top hole which serves as a cushion preventing nose damage. But tapering the driving surface does improve accuracy-- vs unsized and sized in a one dia dimension. I've wondered if this effect goes to unifoming the ignition sequence per the continuous engravement of the slug... or what the effect is. What do you think?

Bullet has perfect bore ride fit at 3015-- and round.. an older Lee mold.

Have considered for some time making a 'Lee Yoke' to return the slug otta the sizing die, speeding the process as the tap out method is a PITA-- but easily accomplished once I get going. I've taper sized some 457125's also.. it appears to have the same effect there also.

Aladin:

A: I've run a series of tests with a Lee 180 that I made to PB...

F: The taper procedure you're using on the modified Lee sounds very simular to the Wosika "Coaxisizer" I have in my box.

Ed Wosika made this tool for sale some years ago and I think it is a rather a nice item.

The tool uses loading press leverage to sqeeze a bullet into a tapered hole bored into a die(suitable to caliber and bore diameter). PB or GC, makes no difference. The removal procedure that Ed uses and one you could very well be interested in copying is to beat out the swagged bullet by means of a steel ramrod. This rod would hammer the bullet, nozes destroying them, except for Ed's use of pure lead wire, cut to correct length between steel and bullet noze for cushion.

I found in use that the lead wire needed about two bullets to be perfiectly formed to succeeding bullets, then it could be used indefinitely: The ideal cushion between ramrod and bullet nose, no doubt about it.

I did considerable shooting with these "Coaxisized" bullets in 30'06 mainly but some shooting was done in 8X57 as well. Since the bullets were tapered they could be seated rather sungly into the orgin of the rifling, especially if the throat was worn as is my Springfield's.

Good uniform seating and custom fit to a rifle bore could be attained easily and accuracy as you may appreciate was always just a little bit better than the same bullet before the Coaxisizing treatment.

A: I've taper sized some 457125's also.. it appears to have the same effect there also.

F: I have not done any Coaxisizing for some time now. Certainly not with the 40 - 45 calibers which do not lend themselves to the semi-breechseating closure pressures as well as do the bolt guns.. Unless you wish to get right in there and go the route of a seperate breech tool of some kind.

It could be done easily under the rules of Buffalo Rifle shooting but as I've mentioned before exact precise ultimate accuracy is not the game in long range shooting when compared to the need for dependablely low SDs.

Now, my new Stevens 44 1/2 has a long compound leverage breech block closure. I have not yet fired the rifle but when the time comes I know my bullet of choice will be seated out as far as needed to assure pretty much full bullet engravement as each round is chambered.

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest my 'cushioning' material is wood fiber-- in the form of toweling, litely moisened. It forms a precise nose using enough of the material and hasn't given me any trouble. I'm only tapering air cooled ww alloy BTW.

I hope to make a prototype yet this winter, and then I'll have rod dia turned to match the exit hole-- then using JB Weld I'll fit a precise nose punch. I think with a strong spring for return power those noses will stay in good shape.

Another feature I want to employ with this system is bumping checks to flat. I use 8mm's at times on 30 cal and need to face them in a sense-- square.

My tapering of 457125 shot very well. I'll continue to try that later on.

Aladin:

A: My 'cushioning' material is wood fiber-- in the form of toweling, litely moisened..

F: Yes, I get the picture.

A: I hope to make a prototype yet this winter, and then I'll have rod dia turned to match the exit hole-- then using JB Weld I'll fit a precise nose punch. I think with a strong spring for return power those noses will stay in good shape..

F: That should work. The main advantage of using pure lead as a cusion is that it may be reformed almost instantly for different nose configuations and never wears out.

A: Another feature I want to employ with this system is bumping checks to flat. I use 8mm's at times on 30 cal and need to face them in a sense--square.

F: Yes. The Wosika tool certainly did/does flatten and square bullet bases to the bullet centerline weather there is a gas check in place or not!

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest I got a package today, an LBT .460 500 SP1R. Two cav no less. New condition and exactly as the guy described it.

'Cept. That ogive nose is groove dia. Never occurred to me Smith woulda cut that nose all the way to groove dia. So I have around .87" of bearing surface sans any bore ride for alignment. Bullet is around the length of the 480 Lyman.

Casts nice. Taking all that space up in the case makes me think the pressure readings from a typical loading of 4759 are going to be too high. Nice mold for a gun throated out though...

Aladin:

A: I got a package today, an LBT .460 500 SP1R..

F: That sounds like a nice item.

A: 'Cept. That ogive nose is groove dia. Never occurred to me Smith woulda cut that nose all the way to groove dia..

F: The most successful 40 caliber mold I had from Verl was made exactly the same way. It is an unusual way to design a bullet, unique to LBT so far as I know.

In my 40/65, when it was on the Red Willow Ballard, the LBT 413-350-SP1R was the most stable and accurate of MANY designs tried.

I needed the outlandish oversize bullet to fit a very unusual throat cut in the Red Willow barrel.

This chamber on that rifle was a rather amazing thing in that it had a 0.200 long freebore ahead of the chamber that was 0.414 in diameter. The barrel was conventional 0.401 bore, 0.409 groove diameters. I found it needed the oversize LBT to shoot its best (no surprize in hind-sight). No problems were ever enountered from shooting such an oversize bullet through a conventional 40 caliber barrel either.

A: Nice mold for a gun throated out though..

F: Yup. It worked for me as described but in more conventional chambers things might be different.

Good morning,
Forrest

I'll tell you Forrest my first thought after measuring that 460 SP1R was getting a .452 Lee sizer and attempting to get that forward driver down to match the land dia of my barrel. They stand at .4515 ish, and if this barrel hadn't gave up the ghost I mighta tried it.

I going to try some and see if they slug in this bore. I doubt they'll help, but it's possible with all that bearig surface-- they might hold.

Aladin:

A: I'm going to try some and see if they slug in this bore. I doubt they'll help, but it's possible with all that bearig surface-- they might hold.

F: As you noted in your first post about this mold/bullet: It should work, only keeping in mind the reduction of available space in the case as compared to loads worked up for more conventional bullets.

It really should work BETTER with a properly adjusted load!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest I shot the .460 SP1R's yesterday with promising results. Loading error per uniform neck tension on the cases prevented consistency I think, but three went into 3/4" at 100-- and all of the holes were round. I'm going to get a .452 Lee push thru and size that first driver or so down to bore ride-- and see what it'll do.

Shot that Mathews tapered nose pour from Lyman from a group of bullets sent to me by DW Stiles. This bullet really surprised, dropping three in one hole, five in an inch with the sixth making 1.5"-- more from shooter technique than anything. Over 40% of this bullet was hanging free in the bore not contacting any barrel metal. And again all these holes round. I hope this holds at range..

23 grs of 4759 in Rem cases with Fed 210's was the chg in both loads. That 23 in the small remaining combustion area with the LBT's didn't produce any pressure otta the ordinary signs, but recoil was much sharper than the other loading. Need to reduce that chg and do some chrono-ing with the bullet.

Aladin:

A: I shot the .460 SP1R's yesterday with promising results..

F: I bet sizing the noses won't help or hurt the performance very much one way or the other. Let me know what results you find.

I never fiddled with the 40 caliber LBT I had at all. I just loaded them to the length required to contact the rifling WAY out there ahead of the freebore.

I avoid adding steps to the casting/loading procedure as much as possible. Not only am I lazy and short on time for "special" procedures, more procedures add more variables to an already extreamly variable game!

Not to say that I won't take the time for things that have been proven to inprove accuracy, but there are many things (although fun) that do not result in much advantage in hitting that elusive 24 inch diamond out there at 834 yards!

A: I shot that Mathews tapered nose pour from Lyman..

F: Why didn't you seat them out far enough to contact the rifling?

A: I used 23 grs of 4759 in Rem cases with Fed 210's was the chg in both loads..

F: My favorite load for the 45/70, used for bullets anywhere from 405 to 572 grains, is 21 grains SR4759. Using more shoots faster which degrades bullet performance at long range since faster bullets spend more time in the transonic trouble spot..

Yes! Run some over the clock, with and without the sizing done on the noses. Interesting shooting for sure!

Forrest that Mathews slug was all the way out to engage. Standard procedure with me for any cast first time out.

I have no DE-sire to go messing with nose sizing those .460's. But a .452 die would make a perfect bore rider. The 480 Lyman spitzer has shot the best overall at close range-- with it's BR at .450 and the largest of any bullet I've shot. Didn't get around to testing it at LR due to a low supply.

The transition to trans-sonic flight is more a function of the stability factor and how that relates to the twist etc???

Aladin:

A: That Mathews slug was all the way out to engage. Standard procedure with me for any cast first time out.

F: Amazing! Is the test rifle throat worn or tapered?

A: I have no DE-sire to go messing with nose sizing those .460's. But a .452 die would make a perfect bore rider..

F: Now, I'm not saying that I don't like the bore-rider design: I've got my share and they do very well. On the other hand, in particular with the LBT design we're talking of here, there was no need for concern: It performed better than all the bore rider designs I tried in that particular rifle as cast.

A: The transition to trans-sonic flight is more a function of the stability factor and how that relates to the twist etc???

F: As I understand these things so far as hitting targets at long range go a fellow is best off with a load that sends the bullet on its way at or just above the speed of sound. That is, unless you're able to keep it supersonic all the way to the target. (impossible in a buffalo rifle)

This is because of the increased factor of aerodynamic drag on anything spending time between about 1450 and 1150 ft/sec as compared to the decreased drag for the same projectile at subsonic speeds: Here we have to deal with the affects of "condition" at long range: The more drag a bullet expieriences in flight, the more defelection will show up at the target in a given wind.

I might point out that this is one of the reasons that the boys shooting black retain some advantage: ALL their loads are restricted to the lower side of the above velocity range.

No need to address the stability of a bullet fired from a barrel with such-and-such a twist. The drag factor is what we try to hold to a minimum. Stability at a given velocity is another subject.

In actual firing on a windy day I proved this drag factor to myself at least, shooting a 44/63 Ballard with a 19 grain load of 4759 (1250 ft/sec)and a high-test load with 45 grains WW748 (1680 ft/sec).

At 834 yards in a 20 knot wind both loads performed well. I believe that the slow load did not drift as much as the fast one. The difference was not as much as I thought it would be, BUT!

There was no question which load was better after firing 20 or 30 rounds: That fast load generated so much more "shoulder mirrage" that I never did load it again.

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest have you seen a Mathews bullet? The first driver is around .447, the second .451 and the third finally makes groove at .459. With my land height of .4515 that slug can go along ways into that bore. I'd say my 45/70 is about normal for throating, say .050 to .060 thou.

Have you experimented with any paper patching using smokeless?

Aladin:

A: Have you seen a Mathews bullet?..

F: No, can't say that I have. Thanks for the discription though.

A: Have you experimented with any paper patching using smokeless?

F: Yes. I did quite a bit of PP shooting with the 40/65 over smokeless.

I have an ajustable PP mold for the 40 caliber. I can make bullets anywhere from 420 grains to 250 grains just by changing the length of a plug inserted into the mold blocks during use.

This tool produces nose-pour bullets with a very blunt nose but they are none-the-less very accurate. I'd be using them today except for the PITA caused by the tedious patching procedures!

The smooth sides of the PP bullets improve the BC of the bullet a great deal over comparable grease groove bullets, just for starters.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

I've avoided patching for the same reason Forrest. It's enough work to cast, grade, lube and load sans cutting paper, wetting and wrapping. I'd like to shoot some but doubt I'll be doing the bullet making.

Per the Mathews bullet-- thats what I'm proposing to do with the LBT 500 gr'r using the push thru die's. Make a tapered front just to see if that shoots... The tapering I do with the Lee 180 PB appears to help a good deal.

Another thought per mold design. I have some ideas I want to try out-- one a leade angle like quality jacketed bullets have, easing the slug into the rifling. Another is a configuration on the drivers per throat entry and lube use. And a design on the check shank..

Then I'll take what I've learned from those experiments and apply it to a custom mold design.

[ 02-11-2003, 02:39: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin:

A: Another thought as per mold design. I have some ideas I want to try out..

F: That sort of thing is always interesting. Do you have a mold-maker in mind?

If not, or if you're interested in trying a tool maker I really believe in I'd like to suggest David Mos.

This fellow Mos has made two of my 44 caliber molds. Now, these tools are so finely made that the bullets that drop from them are nearly jewel-like in appearance and performance. I highly reccomend his work for any custom bullet mold you might design.

I wanted to try Dan, as is the title of this thread, but he wrote me back saying he cannot yet make bullets as long as I need for long range shooting. Soon, depending on additional tooling, but not now.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

I think Mos is the only place to get a mold cut to the dimensions I'd want..

Any place else? Not that I know of.

I know what I wanted to run by you Forrest...does any make a bottom pour pot that dispenses the same amount of melt each time it's activated?

I know Smith has one rigged and I have a schematic of it not readily discernible.

Do you see the advantages?

Aladin:

A: I know what I wanted to run by you Forrest...does any make a bottom pour pot that dispenses the same amount of melt each time it's activated?

F: Here you have more information than I do. I know little of bottom pour outfits.

A: I know Smith has one rigged and I have a schematic of it not readily discernible. Do you see the advantages?

F: Yes I do.

The ability to control of rate of flow and pressure at the spiggot is what its all about. That, combined with the bigger pot of metal would allow a man to make more bullets for the time expended.

What makes ladle pouring more precise is the way the ladle may be controlled more closely than the bottom pour outfits and that is why I favor the ladle over the bottom pour pots for everything except when running off large numbers of pistol bullets in a gang mold.

I'd be interested in seeing any such regulator for the big bottom pour pots, just for knowledge and information if nothing else. But I bet the bullets they make would STILL be dull and full of contamination as compared to the ladle-made items.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest you can make bullets free of any dross A-tall using a bottom pour. Those pots can be fluxed same as a ladle setup. And with clean alloy it makes little sense flluxing as I'm sure your aware. What people don't do enough is clean the pot before casting.

And your right-- controlling flow and making it the same for each pour is what it's about. That's the idea behind a metered pot-- a precise drop of alloy each time at the same speed etc. The less variation the better the bullet.

And the idea behind such a pot is imitating a ladle while bottom pouring.

How much weight variation do you think is acceptable for each 100 grs of bullet wt? Not to mention uniform outside dia...

[ 02-12-2003, 04:02: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin:

A: What people don't do enough is clean the pot before casting.

F: You may very well be right. I certainly NEVER clean my old 10 pounder though and it casts nice bullets year in and year out.

A: How much weight variation do you think is acceptable for each 100 grs of bullet wt? Not to mention uniform outside dia.

F: I like to see +/-0.2 grains in the 465 grain 44 bullets I shoot in the 44/63 buffalo rifle.

This is a personal preferance of my own and held primarily because I weigh bullets mostly to detect non-uniform ODs. Here, weighing is far faster than measuring each bullet with a mike.

When the bullets are initially segregated by weight I will measure for most consistent size usally +/- 0.00015. For the above mentioned 44s this is measured at the critical portion of the nose diameter, the main bullet body is less critical. This procedure is done only for "Special Match" graded bullets.

My finding is that if the weights are very uniform, so will the sizes be. A fellow should maintain carefull visual inspections as well. I started this procedure back in the old scheutzen days when I used to hold the Hoch PB 30 caliber to +/- 0.15 grain.

There are those bullets that need some extra attention at times; those which make weight but have some visual defect making weight a non-factor.

Generally I shoot bullets for normal practice that have the typical minor defects. For the Quigley, well, they've gotta be pretty good.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest do you a thermometer?

Aladin:

A: Do you (use) a thermometer?

F: Sure, for measuring outside air temperature when I'm flying mostly. The OAT is a very important item for figuring peformance of the aircraft and is of interest when icing conditions are possible as well.

Also I use a thermometer for figuring air density on the firing line. This is called Density Altitude and affects bullet performance the same way it does in aircraft. I have noted changes in sight settings as large as 0.060" during the course of a day for the same distance, just due to things heating up in the summer sun. I have a whole set of numbers I use for getting that all important first hit as temperatures change from the original setting.

For casting bullets? Nope. I've never used one.

I can tell you though that bullets cast when the OAT is -20 degrees F in my unheated casting shed the bullets always come out somewhat harder than they do when cast in August!

Good morning,
Forrest

Aladin & Forrest, may I be so rude as to jump in and add my useless 2cts. I have never cast with a ladle well not enough to really have an opinion worth listening to but have cast tons with bottom pour pots. I have found that keeping the lead level in the pots and keeping the temp. from varying as little as possible always worked to make very uniform bullets. I used to not get more than 1/10 gr variation for a 260 to 300 gr. bullet either way so I guess that would be really a 2/10 overall weight variation. I also cut down on the dross included bullets when I started covering the melt with kitty litter and I always cast with clean alloy.
One thing I never did was melt dirty alloy in my casting pots. I always melted the dirty lead in a large gas pot and fluxed the hell out of it. Then during casting I never fluxed and kept the alloy in the pot covered with the kitty litter. Even the premelt pots had a covering of kitty litter and the lead pigs fed right through it. I also always used a therm. Well sorry to intrude. Wes

hammerhead no problem-- jump right in, all welcomed.

No therm for me either. I think just a trinket to fall on the concrete and bust. Good casting is about a smooth cycle-- a rythmn if you will. For me a therm is another variable to watch-- and I'm watching enough already. More power to you guys who use'm though.

Forrest take a look at that Lee mold design if you will. I posted a link and tell me what you think.

JHmmerhead:

H: I'll jump in and add my 2cts..

F: I know that it is possible to cast good bullets with the bottom pour pots. As you say, some several procedures make for good production in your casting area.

I'm stuck with the ladle because I can make it work fairly well and once I light-off the pot I don't have to deal with cat-litter or careful maintenence of alloy level/temperature. To me (bottom line) ladle casting is just easier! And I'm sure a lazy enough fellow for that to be important.

Besides, I'm just on the pyro side of normal: Fire is my friend.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Aladin:

A: No therm for me either. I think just a trinket to fall on the concrete and bust..

F: For the figuring of DA on the firing line I use one of those little plastic hang-it-on-the-zipper thermometers, reading in C. This along with an old E6-B works out the current DA in any given condition.

As base line I use 4000 feet DA, which is the altitude of Sheridan. All initial sight settings are aquired at 41 degrees F which make pressure and denisty altitude come out to the same, or a "Standard Day" as it were.

A: Good casting is about a smooth cycle-- a rythmn if you will..

F: Sure.

A: Take a look at that Lee mold design if you will. I posted a link and tell me what you think.

F: I went there. You had by this time noted that the link didn't work..

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest if you go to the Yahoo site which is the emergency room for shooters cast the bullet is posted in the pictures section under a file with my handle.

Worth a looksee. Yahoo Cast Forum

Forrest I shot the Lee bullet yesterday. Shows alot of promise. The three shot chrono went 1220 and into 3/4" easily with 22 grs of 4759.

Aladin:

A: I shot the Lee bullet yesterday. Shows alot of promise. The three shot chrono went 1220 and into 3/4" easily with 22 grs of 4759.

F: Thanks for the site for the picture of your new bullet. I'll go there and look.

That load and the shooting done with it sounds very good. Right at the correct speed too.

What is the twist in that barrel? Any chance of shooting it at 500m or so to test for stability?

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest I'm going to shoot this load at 300 soon which is the limit of the sight setup I currently have on the gun [scope].

The barrel is a 20 twist, same one I had the problems with earlier per the oval holes. Appears the speed limit for this bore is the low 1200's now.

Aladin:

A: I'm going to shoot this load at 300 soon which is the limit of the sight setup I currently have on the gun [scope].

F: Such a short bullet should stabilize at 1230 ft/sec in the 20 twist. I'm too tired to do the numbers this evening with modified Greenhill but the longer range paper will tell for certain in any case.

Have I invited you to Quigley yet? Father's Day this June. If your rifle isn't yet suited for the match I have a fine Ballard (16 twist) that is available.. No scopes at Quigley.

Good evening,
Forrest

A question for FAsmus & Aladin-

Gentlemen- I want to thank you for the extensive exchange of information you have posted. It has proven extremely interesting reading for myself as well as others I am sure.

I am a novice as regards this long range shooting game but am much interested in giving it a whirl. I have a couple of .45-70 rifles which I believe carry a 1:18 twist and am curious just how long a bullet I might expect to stabilize in these? I recently aqcuired a beautiful mould from Rob Applegate - a long range spitzer design, nominal 525gr., 1.5 deg throat taper, that is 1.421" in length. I have looked at Greenhilll's formula and also checked the numbers when using the modified constant suggested by Mr. Mustafa Curtis in "The Fouling Shot" a few months back but having no practical experience with this - am not sure where I really stand.

Also - may I confirm that for long range application, holding velocities to the 1350fps range or below is indicated?

I have little experience with loads in this velocity range and would also like to ask about your recommendations as to suitable bullet alloy, smokeless powder chioces, and primer selection to achieve that low SD you have spoken of. I have used primarily WW + 2% Sn, air cooled up to now but suspect a bit softer alloy may be in order. Your comments would be most welcome.

Thank you-

Sky C.
Longmont, CO

Forrest that's a very generous offer-- yet one I won't be able to take up this yr. Thanks so much just the same.

I shot and chrono-d yesterday-- too much wind for any reliable grouping. I did note a variance in neck tension seating these trial runs. I partial size my cases and will have to lighten up the bullet pull next trip, hoping to make the bullet engagement with the lands the primary resistance when the hammer drops. Had decent readings for the most part with the odd low number. Backing them off .007 confirmed my thinking that engagement is best for 4759-- least ways in my gun. Those rds had the most ES variation.

Sky Forrest can answer some of those Q's better than I. I'll give a thought on the ww alloy. They have a variation of hardness per the temp cast and how they cool. And they age harden over a period of weeks to a month or so. If harder works in your gun only experience can tell. I have annealed my bullets in an experiment and can't say conclusively this is the right method-- but it did show promise in my gun. Annealing is accomplished by an hour bake in an oven just below the slump temp and then allowing them to cool in that oven overnite. At a minimun it puts all the slugs in the same hardness/hardening phase-- and uniformity is what it's about.

Got a pictute of that spitzer?

Hello Aladin-

Thanks for your comments. The Anneal treat for the bullets is something I think I'll give a try.

Re: the spitz-bullet - I will send a picture to you via e-mail. Not sure how to/If it can be posted to the site.

Best regards-

Sky C.

Sky,

S: Gentlemen- I want to thank you for the extensive exchange of information you have posted. It has proven extremely interesting reading for myself as well as others I am sure.

F: Thanks for coming on-line Sky. This is certainly interesting stuff for us all.

S: I have a couple of .45-70 rifles which I believe carry a 1:18 twist and am curious just how long a bullet I might expect to stabilize in these?

F: The 18 twist should stabilize your bullet quite well. My 16 twist barrel is unusually fast because I wanted to leave no doubt about stability when shooting really long bullets like the 572 grain Gunn bullet I use for 1000 yard shooting.

S: Also - may I confirm that for long range application, holding velocities to the 1350fps range or below is indicated?

F: This is certainly so. Shooting slower yet is indicated if you can find a load that shoots well at 1250. This is because of the time spent at transonic speeds as we have discussed above.

I would point out that this difference is not really a great or defining one: I have seen and done some good shooting with loads that performed best at speeds as high as 1400 ft/sec. You simply have to work harder at judging "condition" and you will miss a few more targets since this judgement factor is critical and nobody is perfect at it!

S: I have little experience with loads in this velocity range and would also like to ask about your recommendations as to suitable bullet alloy, smokeless powder chioces, and primer selection to achieve that low SD you have spoken of..

F: I'm not really as careful as some when it comes to selection of alloy. My material comes from the typical several sources of uncertain reliability. I make up batches of alloy in 100 pound lots, each made by mixing until I get "test" bullets of the right hardness and weight.

I shoot lots of loads in the 45/70 with 21.0 grains SR4759. I use T/P filler and an inverted gas check. I like the IGC these days but in former times the 0.050 card wad worked quite well.

Many of the shooters here in Wyoming use 27 grains 5744 in their 45/70s with bullet weights running from 405 right on up to 540 grains. This load will shoot very well and I have seen it win big matches. I have found the 4759 to deliver better SDs at lower speeds in my shooting..

S: I have used primarily WW + 2% Sn, air cooled up to now but suspect a bit softer alloy may be in order..

F: Your alloy (above) sounds just fine to me. I just wish I had 1000 pounds of WW on hand!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Aladin:

A: Forrest that's a very generous offer-- yet one I won't be able to take up this yr. Thanks so much just the same..

F: OK. Come when you can. These days the Quigley has grown so much that I find myself thinking of former days when all the shooting could be done in a single day. Now the periods between actual shooting drag on to almost two hours.

I have thought about entering myself twice in the same match: Once as myself and then again under a different name with a different rifle so I could shoot twice as much. Unfortunately I think they know me too well by now for this to work..

A: I shot and chrono-d yesterday-- too much wind for any reliable grouping..

F: One of the factors I like about using the IGC in my loads is that the unsized check, as it is forced into the case by the bullet, performs a final case preparation or expansion during that final stage of reloading. Cartridges so loaded hold the bullet with very uniform neck tension.

Some shooters around here claim (believe) that loads should be fired within about a week maximum after loading them. They think that "old" loads shoot poorly, this due to their belief that neck tension and bullets sticking (or not) within the cases causes the terrible high-low problems that result in misses at long range.

In my loading I just load the cartridges long enough that breech closure moves each bullet slightly in the case. This small difference appears to prevent the high/low troubles other shooters fight with when shooting "old" ammunition.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

"In my loading I just load the cartridges long enough that breech closure moves each bullet slightly in the case. This small difference appears to prevent the high/low troubles other shooters fight with when shooting "old" ammunition"

I thought that beared repeating-- something not often mentioned in reloading 'how to do's'.

Back when three decades ago I started cleaning my case necks-- my method is chucking an old bore brush in a hand drill, wrapping some strands of fine steel wool on and running that 'brush' in the case necks to clean and polish some. Maybe today I skip this at times with my 06 cast shooten as I normally use a .312 check dia and often a bullet base of equal dia. That hard bullet pull along with the bullet set against the lands minimizes neck tension variables, as well as the lube itself coating the neck inner wall.

But your method is another refinement of the loading routine Forrest. Now-- we might as well run the whole thang.. What alloy do you use? Do you have a lube preference and what dia to you shoot in relation to bore dia?

Inquiring minds must know...