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Gear, Go to your profile and then Preferences and change the time to your time in the two places noted there. The default time is Dubai time | |||
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 Just been and sorted mine out as well after that tip | |||
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Joe Read your first post starting this thread, who is bashing who............who has the "pattern here.......... I've posted far more technical data and information on what I do and have done than you and bob. The both of you just prefer bashing me to discussing or listening to anything. That's obvious to most everyone. That's what's got you booted off numerous other forums......your continual personal attacks instead of facts and technical data......your BS doesnn't fool anyone. Larry Gibson | |||
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Same ole argumentative joe.........and he can't understand why he gets banned from forums........ Larry Gibson | |||
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I can do this too Gibson....Same ole argumentive Larry.......and he can't understand why he got a 10 suspension from Castboolits......BUT BUT I can add that he can't shoot HV with accuracy from fast twist calibers. | |||
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45 2.1 Finally, been coaching a fellow through emails, he doesn't want to post online for obvious reasons plus he's not a member just lurks, that's finally connected with the sweet spot with buffer in the 6.5 Swede. He's getting very decent groups, one inch at 100 yards, and decent velocity, definitely out of the limit. He wants to get more velocity and I was telling him that perhaps you can help him further. Is that okay with you? | |||
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Yep, send him along........... | |||
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Well Larry, you should know how that happens as you've had that distinction yourself. As for that RPM theory, it appears the year is 1490 and your one of the flat earth people that says if you go too far out in the ocean, you'll fall off. Well, one guy did go too far.... and discovered a new land, with riches in it. The flat earther found he was wrong. Everyone here just loves your badgering...... get real and straighten your act up...... if you can. | |||
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I never have been banned, joe has.......it never changes with these two.......... Larry Gibson | |||
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Guys: I am not sure what your beef is with "these two" but maybe you could stick to substance and take the personal attacks elsewhere. This little feud is getting boring. Don | |||
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Quite right Don, I shall stick to the "substance" of this thread. In Joe's 1st post that starts this thread and lays out the "substance" he sates; That brings me to this part of the story. There’s a fellow from another forum that preaches cast bullets have narrow range that they can be fired in and achieve accuracy…useable accuracy. He concluded that it was the rpm of the cast bullet that was limiting its accuracy range. He had a name for his unproven theory which he called The RPM Threshold. Now I say it’s unproven because, although he could show that within his rpm threshold a bullet could be accurate, but could not definitely give a reason why a bullet outside of that threshold was inaccurate. Oh he tried with such things as “voids in the cast bullet” or “other flaws” would be acted upon by the rpm of the bullet to cause it be very unbalanced thus inaccurate. He also came up with things like double helical spirals and many other jibber dash theories….none of which he could prove. Well that "fellow" is me. I have cosistently proven I can shoot cast bullets at HV and high RPM. I've done it with the .223 in ARs and bolt guns, with the 6.5 Swede, with the "poor" 311291 mentioned by 45 2.1 in 3 different '06s, with the 150 LBT bullet and the 311466 in 10" twist .308Ws and '06s. I've explained over and over again to joe and 45 2.1 that the RPM Threshold is not a limit and it can be pushed up as they do or down, yet they refuse to believe it. I've assisted other's like Bob Wolfenheimer to push the RPM threshold up and achieve accuracy at HV and high RPM. I've also demonstrated how, by controlling the RPM through a slower twist it is quite possible to obtain excellent accuracy with cast bullets at 2600+ fps from 14" twist .223s, 22-250s, 22 Hornets and .308Ws. Yet we see in this thread a constent criticism of me that I "can't do it" when the plain truth is that I can "do it" and am willing to show how and demonstrate that to anyone. I've explained and proven the RPM Threshold is real. I can easily demonstrate the RPM threshold to anyone, most of who have already ran into it when accuracy goes south with cast bullets at a certain velocity. I have also explained how to push the RPM threhold up, over and over again but am more than willing to do so again. It encorperates all the processes that joe and bob use but they don't seem to grasp that fact, unfortunately. So Don, you are absolute correct; we should stick with the topc of this thread which should be shooting cast bullets at HV which is perhap what joe intended(?). The personal attacks should definately stop, from all here. I attempted to get back into the topic with my post: Note the similarity of design wih Von Gruffs bullet and the Eagan 6mm bullet.......both are very well suited to pushing the RPM threshold up to the levels both did. However that post and my attempt to get back to the topic was ignored. I'll profer it again to joe and bob (45 2.1) and the ohers here who are interested in an offer of us having a meaningful discussion so we all may learn. Larry Gibson | |||
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Well Don, now you have an example of what is going on. Joe and I have both explained what is happening....... his theory has been shown by us to completely go away when tolerance slack is removed. Close up the tolerances and his RPM theory disappears. That link Joe and I both posted from 11/07 basically stated that. For what it's worth, the only way to have a conversation with Larry is to agree with him........ and thats not likely to happen. | |||
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Don, Here are photos of five targets shot with a 6.5x54MS that I built on a Savage action with an 8 twist sporter stainless Lothar Walther barrel. Rifle wears a 3x9 scope. Five five shot targets were requested by Larry Gibson along with the pictures of the chronograph to show the velocity. I won't post the chronograph pictures here as not wanting to waste your bandwidth as these targets will take up a good amount of space. After I had posted these that wasn't good enough. I was called a liar and that Larry Gibson wanted to come to my home and actually see it, or have other members come watch me do it.      There is also a "sticking" of mine on Castboolets about shooting milk jugs full of water at 300 yards using a 6.5 Swede with a 135 grain cast bullet at high velocity. You make up your mind who's telling the lie here. I'm pretty fed up with it myself. I can't seem to post anywhere about high velocity cast shooting with accuracy without Mr.Gibson turning the thread into what you see demonstrated here. He may have not thought that I saved those targets after all those years but I did. | |||
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Sorry posted #4 twice. Here's #2  | |||
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I've no remarks about the targets joe. I did not call you a liar either. I questioned the results until you explained fully what and how you had done it. There is also another 6.5 thread I started in which I duplicated the loads you and bob (45 2.1) proscribed. I also used the Kurtz bullets you cast and sent to me to use. With the exact load you said was going to do it I was able to get very good accuracy at what is cosidered HV out of the 6.5 Swede. However, using 3 Oehler chronographs and a PACT chronograph I was not able to duplicate the velocities you reported though I came within 200 - 300 fps of them. I did not call you a liar about that either, I simply reported the factual results of my tests and, in fact, gave both you and bob credit for the loading technique and it's results. Yes, I would still like to come and shoot with you, I've offered numerous times. I've also offered to come and shoot with bob at his gatherings. So have several others including a much respected CBA member who posts regular articles in their published paper. All of us wanted to come and see how it (HV with cast at high RPM) is done, to learn in other words. You both have declined shooting with any of us. I really don't see how wanting come and shoot with you and observe your technique is calling you or bob a liar. I offered to bring my slow twist rifle and show how I could shoot with very good accuracy at 2600+ fps. Others have done the same yet you bot declined to shoot with us. Still, in an offer of sticking to the subject of the thread (Don; if that subject is shooting at HV. However, given the context of the last 2 posts from joe and bob the context of the trhead and reason joe posted in the 1st place does indeed seem to be just to bash me). However, ignoring the obvious, I'll again ask for comment on the similarity between the design of Von Gruffs 7mm bullet, the 6mm Eagan bullet and how/why they can be driven to HV? Larry Gibson | |||
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No Larry it's not bashing you. It's replying to the incorrect statements you have made. Did you know ask me to supply pictures back then of five 5 shot groups and also the chronograph readings of what the velocities where? The bullets I sent you, you stated where terrible and only a few bullets were useable. Do I have to go back through the archives and dig those posts up. You're trying to come off as being nice now. Tell you what Don, I'll sacrifice my membership here if you ban both me and Larry Gibson. How about that Don..both of us out of your hair forever. | |||
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Joe I don't recall if you were asked for the pictures or not, I thought you posted them to show everyone you could have won the mould that was offered as a prize.....? Does it matter? The fact that I went out of my way to duplicate the 6.5 Swede loads based on the directions you and bob gave me should indicate to everyone that I did not call you a liar and in fact vindicated your technique. No I did not attain the same accuracy or the velocity but I gave both you and bob credit for the technique and my success at using it. How is that calling you a liar? Can we get back to Von Gruff's and the Eagan bullet similarities? Larry Gibson | |||
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Don I can give you a list of names and phone numbers to call that Larry asked me for 5 five shot targets and the chronograph readings if you don't believe me...and why would Larry and other members want to come to my home and see me shoot them if none of this is true? One is 45 2.1 I'll give you his phone number in pm. Larry is not telling the truth because his ass is on the line here. My offer still goes, ban us both. I'd gladly do it to save some other poor soul the attacks of this man. | |||
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Don This is really out of hand. No need to ban anyone here. No, I don't think my ass is on the line either. You can easily go the CBA and research joe's claim if you want or call whomever joe wants you to. No need to waste your time though as I'm done with this thread and joe on this forum. PM me please if you've anything further either here or over on CBF. Good day to all. Larry Gibson | |||
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Well that's easy to fix Larry, just say you agree that I did indeed shoot all the groups I posted on CBF out of the 6.5 Grende, 6.5x54MS,5.56 Colt HBAR, and the 6.5 Swede at high velocity with accuracy all from fast twist barrels. Or do you, Wiljen, Pat I, and Idabull have to come to my house to verify that? Still want to fix it? Also admit that many of us have exceeded the rpm threshold limit by quite an amount. If that's acceptable I'll tell Don I don't want him to ban either one of us. By going to the threads, which Don won't do, he's see you're same argumentive pattern. He'll see me defending myself. We'll also see if we can find the stuff where you argued with Dutchman, an authority on Swedes. | |||
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Don, Larry just stated this in a few posts back of where we are at "I've assisted other's like Bob Wolfenheimer to push the RPM threshold up and achieve accuracy at HV and high RPM. I've also demonstrated how, by controlling the RPM through a slower twist it is quite possible to obtain excellent accuracy with cast bullets at 2600+ fps from 14" twist .223s, 22-250s, 22 Hornets and .308Ws." I email Bob and his reply is below, wouldn't you say that is a flat out lie from Mr Gibson. Bob doesn't want to become involved online. Can't say I blame him.Here's his email and I'll copy it entirely and pm it to you so you know I didn't make it up: Naw, he didn't help much, just read and commented on the things I'd done. Believe it or not, the duplex in this application was my own idea. I figured that even if I got the cannon powder to burn in the pressure range it was supposed, the AR platform would handle it. Not like putting a duplex load in a Krag where pressure is limited. Bob | |||
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Here's a target from a rifle I haven't said anything about on the forum. It's an AR 10 in 7.62 NATO that I built. Yup, it has a Lothar Walter barrel and being a 7.62 NATO it has a 10 twist as requested by ArmaLite. Not an 11, not a 12. Shooting a 180 grain cast bullet designed by 45 2.1. Load is a duplex load of a fast rifle powder and main charge of 867. This target is a cut out of the main target in which I was testing loads and I shot my last five shot group at one of the two bullets holed in the bottom right of the target. There were two holes one above the other. I drew a square around those and the group with marker pen. That is NOT the bulls eye. So that big hole you see at the bottom is six shots because remember I said I shot at the one bullet hole that was in the target. Being I scanned it the scanner lid flattened the holes out some, but there are six bullets through that bottom hole. It measures 7/16. Now the load was up in the mid 2000 fps bracket. I'm not claiming high rpm because the velocity would have to be much higher. I just put this rifle together and haven't played with many powders in it. Jacketed 180 grain loads reach about 2661 fps or so. If a cast reached that it would be only 155K rpm. Nothing to holler about for high rpm, which I'm not. I'll say though I'm very close to that velocity. Here's the ugly target:  | |||
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Larry, there are so many inaccuracies in your last few posts that I don't know where to begin. It's all part of a pattern. You obviously aren't genuinely interested in the topic of this discussion and I sincerely hope you do stay out of it. You also have no interest in improving things, only in promoting your theory with is OPPOSED to any progress in the HV accurate cast bullet department. If you were able to figure out how 45 2.1, Joe, and others do what they do, you'd have to throw your theory in the trash, and you couldn't do that, could you? Anyone who wants to see your pattern of Lure/antagonize/discredit/distort facts of rebuttal/insult can observe the patterns of behaviour here: http://www.castboolits.gunload...&highlight=rpm+swede. I had a very long discussion with you, you never answered my most critical questions about your theory and finally resorted to insults. Another member joined in and picked up where I left off, and when he took you to Ph, D. Physics school you insulted him until he recognized your pattern, explained the sickness, and left the thread in disgust as did I. The only one left was Felix, and you finally started ragging on HIM. When everyone finally quit playing your game you posted once more and it's been dead for a long time. It's a regular pattern, one I've seen go on here more than once. This isn't about shooting HV cast bullets, it's about something else for you with which none of us are qualified to help. I know your response will be something to the effect of how I don't know the full story, haven't been around long enough, how I'm picking on you, some twisted iteration of facts to back up your comments, etc. I'm really not interested. What interests me is the same thing that got me involved with these discussions years ago, and the same thing Joe posted this about: How to find ways around accurate velocity limitations with our guns, the techniques involved, and the particular little demon involved with twist rates. We KNOW fast twists cause problems, the thing is figuring out HOW. I'd like to see this thread go in the direction of identifying limiting factors and how to tame them. You know that all you've said about slow powder, hard alloy, fit, etc. isn't the whole story to success, or you'd have quit preaching the 120K-144K threshold thing a long time ago and moved on to more productive things. So, since I know your response to this is inevitable, let's at least make it productive. I have a couple of legit questions for you on topic. What are your thoughts on muzzle pressure affecting accuracy at HV with fast twists? Also, you never could explain effectively how a paper jacket allows for a 30% increase in accurate velocity, I'd like to hear your explanation again. Also, I'd like to know if you've ever been able to determine the actual relationship between chamber pressure and rifling twist, the proportion of energy expended getting the bullet spinning vs. moving forward. Gear | |||
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When I tried using a harder alloy in the 7 twist Colt 5.56 NATO it didn't seem to make a whole lot of difference. Maybe when you reach a certain pressure that is over the strength of the alloy you're using its over a certain range of harder alloys beyond what you were initially shooting with. I'm interested in seeing what the boys who are using the copper alloys will be getting for velocities and accuracy. I know is the larger bores just going to linotype or a lino type mixed alloy you can pressure the bullet to more velocity and still keep accuracy. | |||
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I'm still fascinated that only wrapping the driving bands of a cast bullet with paper, twisting the tail, deleting the gas check, and lubing the paper with paste wax will allow the bullet to be fired with equal pressure, velocity, and accuracy as copper-jacketed bullets. The paper acts only on the driving bands under compression, strengthening the surface of the lead and changing the friction characteristics as well as adding a perfect, flexible, dynamic gas seal, yet doesn't do a thing for nose support or casting imperfections. It takes a REALLY bad casting, like two grains light due to a bad internal void, to cause a flyer even at 2,650 fps out of my .30-'06. This rifle has trouble with cast bullets much above 2100 fps due to some chamber neck issues, but take the very same bullet, size it down to .303" and wrap it back up to .311" and it shoots MOA or better to nearly 2700 FPS (Load starting to get hot at that point) with air-cooled wheel weight alloy at 14 bhn. I have a pretty good idea how this is possible, and I think it has less to do with balance than some would think. Gear | |||
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I'm sure you know of course that some casters cut bearing band rings from tubing and insert them in their mold and cast their bullets with a copper bearing band. NRA has an article on this in their Cast Bullet Book. They only did the 30 caliber as copper tubing can be found in the correct size. So unlike a jacketed bullet just the copper bands protect the bullet from higher pressure and velocities. I've never tried that. Casting is a pain to start with and having to put those rings in the mold each time. | |||
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Von Gruff, What are you using for lube? | |||
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I remember that trick, they used 5/16" tubing. I don't recall just how much faster they could shoot them, but it was significant. Now somebody tell me what's going on with this. You reinforce the driving bands and suddenly can shoot a lot faster with accuracy. That has squat to do with nose slump (same as Von Gruff's 50/50 bullet nose still shoots HV) and not as much to do with balance as some would think. What if high RPM actually makes bullets shoot BETTER provided they survive the forces from the lands? 45 2.1, I can hear you laughing from here!! Gear | |||
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What I wonder is how hard would you have to push them to push the bullet through the bands leaving he bands in the bore? | |||
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You should............... | |||
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Not going to happen with decent alloy and safe pressures. | |||
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Seems then the copper bans have something in common with the paper patch in protecting the cast bullet somehow. Seems what they are protecting is at the surface of the bullet. How accurate are those banded bullets as I've never given them a try? | |||
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The Barnes bands were reported to be equal to jacketed accuracy. The test reports of the Wilke check are in Wolfe's Cast Bullet Annuals. Basically those did very well at close to jacketed velocities. | |||
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I use a 70/30 bees wax/vaseline lube for all my cast loads from plinkers right through the velocity spectrum I load for. I have given a bit of thought to why velocity, for want of a more inclusive word seems to cause some aspects of cast bullet "lore" to have certain plateaus of performance. First and formost I think bullet design and bullet fit are at the top of the page when it comes to things to get right, and this includes sizing of both the drive bands and the nose on bore riders and by how much. Next is casting ability with all that entails - good filled out mould, alloy and mould temps, sprue cutting time, and most of all - repeatability. Alloy and powder choice and after the medium velocity levels are passed then GC material and thickness have to be considered. Case prep and neck tension also come into the mix. I am not as experienced as some on the forum on the number of cartridge - rifle combinations cast and loaded for but have had a reasonably full examination of all of the above chasing what I needed for those I do load for. Any discussion of any of the points noted might iluminating and fill in gaps in our collective knowledge. That is why I am on the forum anyway. | |||
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Von, Whether you think so or not you're a very knowledgeable cast shooter. You definitely know the important points which you noted in this post. We'll touch on some of those points in the future. | |||
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Von, I forgot to ask. You mentioned gas check material. I assume you're making your own gas checks, correct? If so what material are you working with? I just recently done a test using different material. I'm still working on the test and will report later if there is an interest. | |||
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On that 7.62 NATO AR 10 shooting here's the bullet I used. No need to ask who designed it, you should know, but I'll mention it for those who aren't in the loop..45 2.1  | |||
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Origonally I used Hornady GC but then had a play with a unit I cobbled together and while it was a bit agricultural it did show the start of what might be achieved so had Charlie send me one of his checkmakers and after a bit of trial and correction he sent another one that has been excellent. I initially tried litho plate in various combinations of thickness and ply's ( from single layer .006 through .012 , .012+.006 then 2x.012) and found that 2x.012 gave me the desired results with suficient plinking ( would still be effective hunting round to about 150yds) and steel plate accuracy up to about 1900-2000fps ( about 1.5-2 moa at 100) where the shots started to open up again and nothing I could do would bring them back in again but because the majority of my CB shooting in the 7x57 is my plinking load at 1900fps over 17.2gn Blue Dot I decided that further work with the litho plate was not warranted and turned to copper. I didn't want to have to search out specialty suppliers of shimstock as this (at least here in NZ) can put the price into the Hornady GC range. Our roof suppliers here have a copper flashing material that is .021 and after annealing cuts and forms quite nicely and best of all it works on my higher velocity loads. Have had a couple of discussions as to why the litho at .024 only works to 1900-2000 fps and havent come to a census opinion as to the why of it as yet. There is no deformation of the GC shank-drive band junction with a little lube still showing in this area and even sizing a few dry without hitting the lube handle I could see no visable deformation. So gentlemen, is it velocity, pressure or rpm that limits the litho plate usage to under 2000fps? Or is it the malleability of the aluminium that limits its use and this would carry over to our discussion on the velocity of cast bullets as the harder alloy resists plastic deformation better at least in the drive area of the bullet.I wonder if the pp also has this non malleable ability and that is why it allows HV with soft aloy. | |||
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Is that a full dia nose or is it a gradual taper from bore dia to drive band dia. | |||
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You're pretty sharp. It's different diameters. | |||
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