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Just sour grapes, Larry. You still think it's BS because, like has been said, you can't or won't learn how to do it. Von Gruff and Joe weren't just "pushing" the RPM threshold, they blew it out of the water. You talk about what you can do with groups and at what speeds, but you conveniently forget to mention the RPM you're able to achieve before accuracy goes south. 1.25 MOA at 100 out of a 7mm and nearly 220,000 RPM is pretty impressive, it appears someone ELSE has learned how to shoot cast boolits too, not just Bob and Joe and a few others. I doubt you can duplicate Von Gruff's results, either. Gear | |||
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Now that the dust seems to be settling, what is the big deal about being able to shoot a cast bullet in a .22 at 2400? What do you have really? Certainly not anything I'd use for deer hunting. I have shot much faster in my .243 and it DID NOT work on deer. On the other hand 3000 fps from jacketed bullets in a .22 is simple and works great on deer. My .223 doesn't shoot cast bullets. Am I going to fret over it? NO. Would I spend any extra effort trying to make it shoot them? NO. It shoots jacketed great and my .222 and 22-250 will shoot cast. If someone knew a simple way to make my .223 shoot cast, would I try it? NO. It is just not a concern and if I did do it--SO WHAT? Is itt an olympic event or does it make you any money to be able to do it? NO. So you done it, so what what practical purpose does it have? | |||
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Here's a couple of explanations Ray. The faster they go with accuracy the more useable the range is for varmint hunting or long range target shooting. A flatter trajectory is always nice to have. Another reason is for the fun of it..to see if it can be done. Of course there are those that make the same comments that you have...why? An answer that may apply is that we all started out with the low velocity range on rifle cast shooting. It's instilled in us. To change would be abhor, but it isn't. Many know I never started cast rifle shooting with the fast pisto/shotgun powders...I started with rifle powders. My object wasn't cheap economical shooting, it was to replace the factory bullet with a cast one. I believe geargnasher started the same way as he told me so. You had an unfavorable experience using 243 cast on deer. Think about this, 22 LR rimfire have killed deer. I'm not talking about head shots only. They have also, unfortunately killed a lot of people. I'm not by any means saying it's a suitable deer cartridge, to the contrary. A suitable cast bullet tailored for deer hunting will work. Would I say it would be as good as a larger caliber cast bullet..No. I'm not trying to change your mind, you asked me why I do it. Also once you know how to do it, it's not any harder to do then lower velocity loading. | |||
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Funny how joe and bob have many times been requested by numerous experienced cast bullet shooters to "prove" their claimed accuracy shooting abilities at HV with cast. Many such accomplished cast bullet shooters, including myself, have requested to visit both joe and bob to learn "how it is done". Neither have come through in the end to show their shooting to anyone. Bob claims "others" all the time but who they are is anyone's guess. Several of us have offered more than once to go to their place at our own expence but they always have some reason why they won't shoot with us and show us how they do what they claim. Me, I'll shoot with anyone to learn or demonstrate what I say, even will shoot with joe and bob. They won't though. Yes they have lame excuses why not and Im sure we'll hear them again here. The Lyman 311291 mould was not "out of spec" and Bass did not say that. Unfortunately bob seems to remember things the way he wants, not as they were. Bass actually said the alignment pins were out of adjustment and he adjusted those. He also said the nose cast undersize to fit his '06 bore. Yet he was still able to push the RPM threshold up and got very good accuracy (2-3 moa at 100 yards) in the 2300 fps range. I am able to do the same with that 311291 using 3 different 10" twist '06s. That's because we understand the RPM threshold is not a "limit" and can indeed be pushed up just as Von Gruff did also. That is indeed a good looking NATO .22 cal bullet that 45 2.1 designed. He has designed numerous others, I have several of them. Never said bob was stupid and didn't know anything. I have said that in this thread and in others on this forum and the CBF. However, poor old joe can't retain anything he reads, if he really reads anything. Joe can't understand that I certainly don't think bob is wrong about everything and he still can't understand the RPM threshold is not a limit. Joe continues to criticise because he still thinks it is a "limit" even though he has been told otherwise so many times....... Ponder this; given the RPM threshod is not a limit but can be pushed up or down, why is it the Von Gruf isn't shooting his cast bullets to the full velocity potential of the 7mm? Why is it Bass couldn't get full velocity potential with that 311291 out of his '06? Why is it joe can't get full velocity potential with that NATO bullet or any other while maintaining the same accuracy as with jacketed? Why is it that bob says you can get "good" accuracy around 2300 fps with that NATO bllet in the 223, why not the full velocity potential of 3000 fps? The answer is they all have pushed the RPM threshold as high as they can. Any higher velocities and accuracy does goes south because they will have crossed the RPM threshold for their rifle and components. Easy enough for most everyone to understand except joe and bob. On the other hand, by controlling the RPM with a slower twist I am able to push a 160 gr cast bullet to its full velocity potential of 2650 fps. And I will gladly demonstrate that to anyone. Larry Gibson | |||
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Well gear, if YOU think it is sours grapes then why don't YOU follow thier insructions (if you can decifer them) and show us how to shoot 180 gr cast bullets above 2600 fps out of a 10 or 12" twist .308W and maintain 1 1/8 moa accuracy? Better yet, why don't YOU show us how accurate your cast bullet loads at their claimed 2400+ fps out of a 6.5 Swede M96 are. When you've exhausted all of the methods they claim and still can't do it then we'll talk about "sour grapes". Maybe they'll let you drive up to Tennessee and they can show you how they do it? Larry Gibson | |||
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No sour grapes here at all, Larry, I just follow directions, figure stuff out, and get results. I don't know why you can't do the same thing. Joe is correct about my approach to shooting cast in rifles, it never made much sense to shoot popcorn loads out of a high-powered rifle, so I always used rifle powders and sought jacketed performance. Gear | |||
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Funny how joe and bob have many times been requested by numerous experienced cast bullet shooters to "prove" their claimed accuracy shooting abilities at HV with cast. Last time you asked, Joe posted the required number of targets showing the accuracy level claimed…. You, on the other hand were speechless. Many such accomplished cast bullet shooters, including myself, Three actually, all of which were people that we wouldn’t want to be acquainted with. Boorish behavior doesn’t warrant being invited to someone’s home. have requested to visit both joe and bob to learn "how it is done". Neither have come through in the end to show their shooting to anyone. Bob claims "others" all the time but who they are is anyone's guess. Those folks were listed in the threads. That is indeed a good looking NATO .22 cal bullet that 45 2.1 designed. He has designed numerous others, I have several of them. Never said bob was stupid and didn't know anything. I have said that in this thread and in others on this forum and the CBF. However, poor old joe can't retain anything he reads, if he really reads anything. Joe can't understand that I certainly don't think bob is wrong about everything and he still can't understand the RPM threshold is not a limit. Joe continues to criticise because he still thinks it is a "limit" even though he has been told otherwise so many times....... Your “definition” has morphed a bit since you first posted it. Ponder this; given the RPM threshod is not a limit but can be pushed up or down, why is it the Von Gruf isn't shooting his cast bullets to the full velocity potential of the 7mm? Larry, you lack the basics in quite a few areas involving cast bullets. If you understood what you have just said you would already know the answer. Von Gruff used 50%WW / 50% PB alloy for the softnose alloy and linotype for the shank. For the soft nose to expand and not shear off, the velocity he stated is the ideal spot for his bullet with the alloy he used to work right. Why is it Bass couldn't get full velocity potential with that 311291 out of his '06? Why is it joe can't get full velocity potential with that NATO bullet or any other while maintaining the same accuracy as with jacketed? Why is it that bob says you can get "good" accuracy around 2300 fps with that NATO bllet in the 223, why not the full velocity potential of 3000 fps? We prefer the cast bullet to expand, not act like a fmj solid. Maybe you can understand that…….2400 fps is the velocity level where that happens with the alloy we use. You, on the other hand are completely free to pursue whatever you choose. Larry Gibson | |||
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Joe--According to the book my .243 load with the 95 grain RCBS should have been around 2400 fps. I used a guys chronograph and it said 2900 fps. His chronie seemed right on with other stuff I was shooting and he said it was right on with all his stuff. I still don't know the actual velocity--nor do I care as it failed as a hunting bullet. If it was in fact 2900 and it was accurate, does that make me think I can leap over buildings? No. Your statement that you don't shoot cast for economical shooting but to replace jacketed. You may replace jacketed velocity wise and perhaps accuracy but despite what Verbal Smith says about Jacketed performance with cast bullets--it aint gonna happen. You can train a jackass all you want but you are not going to win the Kentucky Derby with one. | |||
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Ray let me clarify my statement that I shot cast to replace jacketed bullet. I didn't mean that in the sense I replaced jacketed bullets with cast for hunting. Initially many years ago when I started shooting cast bullets I shot them for target shooting, plinking, and varmint hunting. Then years later I started using cast in hunting larger game, but so far has never been with a smaller then 30 caliber cast bullet. There's another way to look at hunting with cast bullets. In a caliber that is capable of getting a fairly high velocity I don't think replacing it with a cast bullet will result in the same as or better then the jacketed bullet. Now such calibers as 30-30, 32 special, 35 Rem, 358 Win, 375 Win, 444 Marlin, 45-70, and a whole host of others where it's easy to duplicate the original jacketed velocity they do very very well indeed. Also you don't need to have "the same exact velocity" of a jacketed load in many cast bullet loads. I've shot deer with my 32 Special that I wasn't anywhere near the factory jacketed velocity and it really performed beyond what was expected. I'd say it would be tough to get a 243 cast load to perform as well as it's jacketed counterpart. The caliber is small and too high a velocity. That's not to say that it can't be done with a properly constructed cast bullet of say a two part alloy like Von Gruff used in his 7x57 Mauser. Hell I wouldn't expect a 243 with a light weight hollow point bullet, the kind that are used for varmints, to be a very good deer load. Again not talking head shots. My brother lost a nice 8 point buck with a 243 when he slapped it in the shoulder with an 80 grain hollow point. I'm sure it didn't penetrate enough to drop it in a reasonable distance, but I'm sure it died miserably somewhere. I chewed his butt out for as I had told him not use those for deer. I reloaded for him. I made him heavier bullet deer loads and lighter weight ground hog loads. | |||
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I think I got it. Let's say those .243 bullets I shot were only going 2400 fps as the book stated, then I'd just be an average Joe. But if the book said 2400 fps but I was making them go 2900fps then I would have crossed the threshold and be a----- well be a SmokinJoe . If this is correct can I send in a box top from Cherios to someplace and be the first in my neighborhood to have a SmokinJoe badge? Eat your heart out Larry Gibson. | |||
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Ray you can do that. Send 25 targets and all chronograph readings,plus 10 box tops to: General Mills, Inc. Cherio SmokinJoe Contest P.O. Box 9452 Minneapolis, MN 55440 Post a pic of your badge when you get it. | |||
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What? They want proof to get a Smokinjoe Badge? They need targets and chronograph records? Isn't that ironic? | |||
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You all have had ample opportunity to prove your claims to witnesses on this forum and the CBF. None of you have, not much else to say. Larry Gibson | |||
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I've had at least 7 members to my house who have seen me do what i've said. We used their chronographs also. Your the guy who we never see other members confirm anything you've said. There are several problems with anything you say. You never respond to anything where your given an answer you can't contradict, you heap more requirements on after people supply evidence of having done what you wanted, you constantly attack people who don't agree with you, you foist theories that can't be proven. Basically you haven't spoken the truth about anything here..... only things to further your agenda which is to make yourself look good. | |||
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Joe I am not the sole proponent of the RPM threshold. I also am not the one who came up with the RPM threshold, I am only the one who proffered it on the CBF. You have been informed of this from the beginning but as always you pay no attention to facts. The same as you ignore my proven succes at shooting very good groups (accuracy) at HV. Many, many people have "come forth on the CBF and in the CBA where they understand the adverse effects of RPM, they understand the RPM threshold and they understand how it is pushed up or down. They also understand how Von Gruff has pushed it up. They don't come forth here because you are here. It is your and bob's BS they are sick and tired of along with your harrassment and personal attacks. That's what got ou thrown off the CBF, the 6.5 Grendel forum and probably others. Bob Those 7 members should gladly post on the CBF. Numerous members there have asked for witnesses to what you do, like sub 1" groups at 300 yards with a factory BOSS equiped Browning/Winchester (from several such rifles no less). Such heady claims should be witnessed. They aren't and you wonder why you've no credibility with such claims there? You've both had ample opportunity to have your claims verified but you have not. Your personal attacks here on me will not change that fact nor give either of your HV accuracy claims credibility. You both need to substantiate your claims, it's that simple. Larry Gibson | |||
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[/b]Larry.... gee, how can I say this. Your not an authority to prove anything to. Your just another fellow on a keyboard. Nothing more than that. You tell folks you can't shoot cast HV because of a plagiarized theory and I tell them they can and show them how. Quite coming on like a big mucky muck and you would be better received by a lot of people.[/b] | |||
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As usual, personal attacks is all these two can come up with............ Everyone would think they could prove they can do what they claim (very good accuracy at HV/RPM) in front of verifiable (known would be nice) witnesses. The fact that they don't speaks volumes for their claims.......... Larry Gibson | |||
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Another caliber we can talk about here is the 6x45 (223 necked up to 6mm). I built some of these a few years ago. Mine wears an eighteen inch stainless match bull barrel from Lothar Walter. The bullet I'm using is one just shy of 77 grains cast of 50/50 alloy that is water quenched. I'm using a duplex load in this one where the main charge is 867 surplus with a Unique kicker. I've experimented some and find 4198 is a good kicker too. This rifle is extremely accurate with both cast and jacketed bullets. It's shoots MOA at 100 yards and I was happy to see it shoot less then MOA at 350 yards (2 inch groups). 45 2.1 designed this bullet with a throat cast from me. This bullet fits the throat extremely close. Interesting it shot surprisingly good groups from just the necked up brass that wasn't fire formed. Anyone interested in this combo for an AR jump in or hit me with a pm. PM might be preferable if you want to avoid interruptions. | |||
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Thought I'd post a picture of the 5.56 NATO bullet we've been talking about.  | |||
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Joe, are you checking your PM's? Somebody contacted ME about your blended powder. I figured you'd better explain the details yourself. Gear | |||
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Yeah I'm starting to get some pm's on this now. They don't want to come online and be badgered by you know who, nor do they want anyone at their range from a forum to view their shooting. They asked what happen to a man's word. Amen | |||
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I was fooling around in the gun room this evening and pulled down some factory .35 Whelen Hornady Superperformance rounds I bought for the brass. I know it's not the same powder as the cannister stuff they sell, but it's pretty unique stuff. Little spheres of all sizes, from really tiny (smaller than 2400) to almost as large as a pinhead and everything in-between. The largest kernels were slightly flattened, like all the powder was run through a roller and only the largest ones were touched. Looks like they're using all the tricks in the book here to make progressive-burning powder: Different deterrent coatings plus a large variance in surface area. This blended/progressive stuff looks to be really good for cast bullet loads if we can figure out how to keep from blowing ourselves up with it! Hodgdon is very dodgy about load info other than a few, very specialized applications for their Lever and Superperformance powders. Hopefully more data will become available when they release the new batch of "OEM" powders. Gear | |||
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They said that they haven't released the powders they are loading in the factory ammo, but they are coming out with some more new ones. The Superperformance powder I bought doesn't quite match your powder in appearance. You can't tell there is two different burn rate powders blended because the kernels are all the same size and the coating the same. The loading data for the powder I have has very few calibers. I talked to them about that and they said not that it wasn't safe in cartridges that weren't listed, but that it didn't show any increased performance over the standard powders. | |||
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I learned some more things about the SuperPerformance powders last night watching Hornady on TV. I know it's two different burning rate powders blended. I know it's in slow region and I figured it has a more gentle push on the bullet going up the barrel and also that it burns longer up the barrel. What I found out last night is that it shuts down fast, or drops off fast, at the end of it's burn time. Pressure just drops suddenly and this is near before the muzzle. Hornady claims it has less muzzle blast. We know it's the pressure and alloy strength that affects cast bullets at HV and also fast twist rifling. It's that and not RPM as long as the bullet is cast near being balanced and started straight into the bore. Using buffer works in some cartridges because one of it's attributes is acting like a shock absorber between the bullet and gas pressure and on the other end of the barrel it protects the bullet some from the muzzle blast. | |||
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and besides all that, my postman can beat up your postman | |||
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Here are some pictures of a 6mm cast bullet I have used, but it's not the one 45 2.1 designed. It's an Eagan bullet that Madensonshooter uses in his 6x45. Pic of bullet and then some loaded rounds:   Forgot to mention that Madsenshooter is also using duplex loads with slow Milsurp powder and doing very well indeed with it. He has posted this and targets on Castboolits with not too much fanfare. That was expected. | |||
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Hey, that's my bullet! I've had some reasonable success with it in a 5R rifled, 1/8 twist Obermeyer barreled AR. It wasn't easy. Took some special alloy, heat treating, and minimal lubing, as in put on the bands with a Q-Tip. It isn't easy to get a bullet to grip rifling that's only .002" tall and radiused. With the duplex Blue Dot/WC860 loads it's a fairly consistent 1.5 MOA, which should hold a coyote's head out to 200yd or so. That's at 2300-2400fps, the bullet works very good down around 2100fps using 4198. There's a few pics of groups at: http://castboolits.gunloads.co...21224&highlight=6x45 I have another mold which should be a better fit to the bore, but haven't had time to do anything with it yet. I have several of Don Eagan's designs, they seem to work their best above 2000fps. In fact I have the 30 cal version of the little bullet Joe pictured. It likes 2150FPS. Joe, it's ok there wasn't a lot of fanfare, I only do it because some say it can't be done. That's a lot like telling Soichira Honda he couldn't make motorcycles that would win the GP championships. I had a lot of factors to deal with in order to get above the "Threshold", which I feel is just different terminology for a lot of things that one can make better, like Larry says, it isn't a limit. It's an expression for the most you're going to get with a particular load/bullet/rifle combination. You guys ought to get together sometime and do some shooting, but not at each other! | |||
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Some good shooting there Bob. This is some of what mine did at the 2415fps while adjusting a second scope in another set of QD rings.  This is a 350gn from my 404 jeffery at over 2400fps as well but with aperture sights and only at 55yds but is pleasing even if it is only trundling out at 125k rpm  | |||
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Von, That's some darn good shooting. That 350 grain from the 404, that's getting up there in punishing your shoulder! How's she feel in recoil? Have you used that for any hunting? | |||
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Bob, Glad to see you here. You have a particularly hard rifle to shoot with that shallow rifling and 5R type groove. I feel you have done amazing well. You have something there you can use for a purpose such as you mentioned shooting coyotes. That's what I was trying to convey to carpetman a reason for HV to get that trajectory flat for such use. As for the limit, like mentioned by 45 2.1, it's been morphed, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He said that the limit can be pushed up or down. How much???? Let's say the limit is 165K. Can we push it to 175k, 185K, 195K, or 200K? Can we agree that over 200K is more then just "pushing" the limit up? Go back and read this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.co...hlight=RPM+Threshold. Just in the first page you see a few disbelievers. Bret being one of them said it's just a "theory". That's what I've been trying to say. Excuse the pun, but that "theory" has had holes shot in it by many people including the some the ones in this thread. We didn't just push the limit up, we went well beyond it. As said in that thread rpm only caused inaccuracy with defective bullets. Mentioning benchrest shooters choosing a twist that just barely stabilizes their bullets is not a good answer. It is "one" of the answer to why, but not all the reasons. Remember where I said rpm only affects bullets that are not balanced? That means "all" bullets including jacketed. Many don't remember but many years ago jacketed bullets were poorly made. Take just the jacket for one thing. If it doesn't have the same thickness all the way around it's going to be unbalanced. Instead of bashing shooters who accomplish what we have here why not applaud them. I do, I don't say "that can't be done". | |||
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Note the similarity of design wih Von Gruffs bullet and the Eagan 6mm bullet.......both are very well suited to pushing the RPM threshold up to the levels both did. Larry Gibson | |||
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My 6x45 is a very accurate rifle. It should be it has a quality match barrel. Not saying because of my shooting. With that said I got some of those Eagans off of Bob, two batches, as the second ones were a harder alloy. Bob said the harder ones shot better in his shallow rifled barrel. The other bullet I shoot is 45 2.1's 6mm. 45 2.1's bullet shoots just a tad better (smaller groups) then Bob's Eagan (which by the way are cast very well) in my rifle. I believe Bob shoots a 30 caliber Eagan in his 30-40 Krag. | |||
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I use the fast 350gn bullet mainly for practice of getting second and third shots away quickly and accurately as it aproaches the 400gn Woodleigh soft or RWS solid at 2300fps for felt recoil. I have loads at 1900fps that are extremely accurate over 63gn H4350 and a plinker load at 1400over 21.5gn Red Dot and have used both loads on mobs of goats with the 1400fps RD load being involved in this episode http://forums.accuratereloadin...5621043/m/2801043151 | |||
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Von, That's interesting on your 1900 fps load because that is the load I settled on with my 9.3x57 with a 272 grain cast bullet. It's one of the light weight Husky 96 Swedes rebarreled and sporterized. With that hard butt plate that's about all the recoil I want to shoot with it. I've only had it a short time so haven't shot any game with it. | |||
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Maybe, knowing that, you'll begin to understand how it is you can push the RPM threshold up? Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry I just didn't push up the rpm (which you morphed) I blew it away as have those here, Bob, and others. If we can going higher, so will your "pushing up the limit". You're the one that doesn't understand. The more balanced that bullet is, as long as we started it straight, the higher we can/will go. Maybe someday fast as a paper patched bullet. So I have to ask you, if we keep pushing it up and up and up..we have to ask ourselves "is there a rpm threshold" to begin with? Is the word "limit" valid here? | |||
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How come this site shows posting dates a day ahead? Gear | |||
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Gear, At the very top in Forum Suggests, etc etc...I asked Don so watch for answer there. | |||
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The thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.co...hlight=RPM+Threshold Joe listed explained it quite well. Just about 5 years ago now. Push the RPM threshold.... Hahahahahaha..... we've put the silly proposition into orbit. You were told then what the cause was and you said you didn't believe it. Your welcome to your own thoughts, but you needn't push them on the up and coming to confuse them with you can't do that when many others have done it. It makes you look bad when somebody posts targets saying they have beat it and you still hang there and say what you do. | |||
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