Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede
Here is a picture of a milk jug filled with water and shot with my Swede at 300 yards. As you may remember from before the rifle has a 2.5x10 Burris Mil Dot scope on it. I have it sighted in at 100 yards with the 6.5 Kurtz group buy. You may remember too I shoot the 6.5's at high velocity. Little more on that later. I places a cardboard behind the jug incase I had to take more then one shot to see where the bullets were going at that distance. Seems I didn't have to as the first mil dot below the crosshair was dead on for my load.

Now more about the high velocity. Some, or should I say many, question why shoot high velocity with the 6.5 Swede. Some are bona fide, but others I feel are sarcasm because they can't do it. Whatever I don't care. My reason is look at the damage to the jug. You can clearly see this wasn't any slow moving 6.5 bullet even at 300 yards. Further more the hole in the cardboard behind the jug showed very good expansion which surprised me. The alloy is 50/50 lead/wheelweights air cooled. Also I feel had I been shooting the bullet at say 1600 fps my drop would have been considerably more. I now have a pretty decent flat shooting cast load for my Swede which in my opinion is still pretty devastating at 300 yards.

The Swede has a very generous neck portion of the chamber. The body section of the chamber can be overcome by neck sizing only. Then the case fits the chamber like a glove except for the neck. The case neck must be smaller then the chamber or it can't release the bullet which can cause very high pressures. With the military 06 brass you get a thicker neck and with the right military brass, too thick of a neck. Then you must neck trim it down to a size that is at the minimum .001 inch smaller then the chamber neck area. With good reloading dies and the thicker necks trimmed to the right thickness, in conjunction with the neck sizing....give you the optimum centering of the bullet in the bore. It's very important to start the bullet into the bore as straight as possible. You can see what can happen if the bullet is started crooked. I've taken loads that shot very small groups with my prepared military 06 brass and shot them in commercial brass...same exact powder charge, same bullet, primer, etc.. They always shot much larger groups. My 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur is another rifle that requires the same treatment. With more modern rifles you can often get away with commercial brass because the neck area of the chamber isn't as larger as some of these old military rifles.

The Swedes were chambered for military use...... they used a 156 gr. RN jacketed bullet. The throat was for that bullet, with deep rifling with some relief, just as several other governments did in that time period. You go with whats given in this caliber and make allowances for it.

Almost everything has been posted on how to make this run, if you take the time to read my back posts on accuracy and the 6.5 Swede. The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.
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45 2.1

In the Swede I'm using 4350. The other cartridges are the 6.5 Grendel that I shoot it from my AR15, and the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur. I use H4198 in the 6.5 Grendel, and I use 4895 in the 6.5x54MS. I have a 260 Rem also and I use mostly 4895 in it. Soon as my supplier gets in some powders I'm going to be testing another powder.

There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves. ... felix
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felix

Sure, like many of you, I've dinked around with cornmeal/COW and Shotshell filler over a tamped cotton tuft when using mild Unique loads in cavernous .45/70 cases and .30-30 and many others with cast, but when it comes to bottlenecked cases and higher charges of slow powders, (where one can really get into deep poo quickly with pressure), research either isn't happening with qualified folks or they aren't talking/writing.

I am to the point of experimenting with filler in .30-'06, 270, and the Swede trying to get decent accuracy and huntable velocity/trajectory with SOFT boolits and SLOW powders, just seems I can't get there any other way, but I really don't want to make my bride a widow over a hobby. I've tried Dacron in the '06, but wasn't convinced that the amount I was using helped.

I'm convinced that longer pressure curves with slower powder and a nice shock absorber (filler) is the ticket for HV cast in most any rifle where one wants softer expandable boolits, plus ES (and thus accuracy) would surely be improved by the positive location of the powder charge in the case the same way it usually is with the faster powders.

I have more then one rifle that shoots cast kind of like jacketed. Below is a picture of a five shot 300 yard group with my 6.5 Grendel AR15. This rifle too wears a Burris mil dot scope but the high power is 14.5. It too is also sighted in dead on at 100 yards. The bullet is the Saeco 140 grain and it too is moving about the same speed that the Kurtz does in my Swede. I set a big cardboard up with white papers on it with the aiming reference. Been a while back and I don't remember which mil dot I used for the group, but I'm thinking it two was the first one below the main cross hair. Before we get to the picture my 6.5x54MS has a load with the Kurtz that I'm shooting a tad faster then the load for the Swede. I only have a 3x9 scope on it, but I'm positive I can hit that jug with it as it's a pretty good shooter. I cut the group out of the cardboard for the Grendel and saved it. This is it below:

I've been playing the brass game for a while, for example my '06 has a tight but long neck for it's caliber and I use .270 brass and turn it a bit to achieve thinner and longer-necked brass. No potential catastrophies with the headstamp, either.

I just purchased a .308 sizing die to aid in reforming for the Swede, but so far haven't found it has added enough thickness with civilian brands to justify the tedious fireforming process with the small head brass. I have three boxes of old milsurp '06 brass from WWII, but haven't tried reforming those yet.

I'm no expert on fit, but I know how to cast a chamber and fit the brass to the gun within reason, and I usually get between .0013-.0009" loaded neck clearance when I'm done. Does marvels for accuracy.

I've played with powders enough to see I can't get there from here as far as lowering the pressure curve enough to shoot softer alloys very well in '06, .270, or the Swede. What I keep running into is ignition issues when using a slow enough powder to almost fill the case. Seems to be a catch-22 with good ignition versus too-high launch pressures. I'm thinking more of a medium-slow powder and a slightly compressed filler. I've also learned from the many posts here since joining how to heat-treat low-antimony alloy to be hard enough to "launch" well but soft enough to expand, and it's a very good idea which I have put to use, but I believe my results could be improved still.

My objective with granular fillers is take something that already works well with hard lead or J-words and make it work near the same with softer, hunting-grade alloys. Not everyone's tack on that objective, but it's something I haven't tried yet and I think it would work. Bob and others figured this out years ago, but I want to know how to do it safely.

Gear

Joe, thanks for the pics. There are folks in lots of places doing great things with accuracy and smallbore cast, most of them way ahead of me. I'm just trying to add one more technique to my bag of reloading tricks to enable me to do something, like for example make a better, more packable, lightweight 30-caliber rifle that can still hit hard, hit predictably, and hit long enough to take elk. Or make my .270 actually shoot well with cast (I believe my big problem there is the case volume is too much for the caliber). Or make either of my M96s shoot cast at any kind of useful speed. Stuffing the case is the only thing I can think of besides clearing out and starting over with calibers more ideal for cast (not that the '06 isn't, but maybe not the best choice).

Gear

Ian,

I played with various dies in forming the 6.5x54MS out of 06 brass. The first one is a swaging down die I made to take the case head down to the Mannlicher's size. After that I tried a 308 sizer and it buckled the body, not the neck or shoulder because the swage die made the entire body skinnier then the interior of the 308 die. So I switched that out for the 7x57 mauser die. All I wanted to achieve in this step was push the shoulder back. After I accomplished that I ran them in the standard Mannlicher sizer die.
On the Swede I just formed them on Swede sizer die with no other steps. I use a Dremel cut off wheel to cut off the excess length so I don't have to trim as much on my trimmer. I found commercial cases didn't give me the thicker necks I wanted and to me that was amazing because some of the shoulder becomes the neck after forming. One would think the brass is much thicker then in the neck but apparently not.

Joe

I don't have an MS yet, maybe someday if I'm lucky. Not to be confused withMS, which I sincerely hope I don't get!

I though the same thing about the '06 brass surely making super-thick Swede necks, thing is the body of the case actually draws up the neck, like hot cheese on a slice of pizza pie, while the shoulder is being set back. We end up with essentially the same thickness in our new neck as the original case was at that point in it's body. I have had better luck setting the shoulder back first, then squeezing down the neck to caliber, but that's just me. I have had a lot of problems with creases trying to do it in one step. I trim the fully -sized necks with a tubing cutter, Lee trim tool base, and a drill, finished off with a bushed 6.5X55 Lee trim guide and cutter (I need cases about .022" longer than SAAMI minimum to fit the one Swede I'm trying this on).

I used to think only br guys (one of which I used to be 15 years ago) dealt with precision case prep, then I started messing with cast in rifles and learned it ain't for half-wits if you want results. Now I've had to buy a few more case prep accesories. That's why I play mostly with pistols and cast nowdays, but some techniques still carry over: I get strange looks from folks at the range when they ask to see what I'm shooting and I hand them a .45 Colt round and they say "how'd you get that headstamp on a .44-40?" because evidently they never heard of neck-sizing to get an oversized-chamber revolver to shoot straight!

Gear

"i have been collecting "shot" buffer for a while with intent to use it as a filler..if it helps and can be done safely in bottleneck cases......so keep it up..i'm listening"

"Yeah, me too. I'm VERY interested to see where this thread's gonna go."

"I would be interested in other's results and loads using fillers."

Some things to think about:
1. Case fillers reduce case capacity. What was a starting load in an unfillered case might, and probably will, become a maximum load in the reduced case capacity caused by the filler.
2. Fast powders shouldn't be used with filler.
3. Medium burning powders might not be a good choice for fillers either. Think narrow safe range here.
4. Slow burning powders work best. Think slow for the cartridge here.
5. There are quite a bunch of fillers out there. They DO NOT work the same and differ in their characteristics depending on how much they are compressed and how much is used. What you have and use is for it only. Don't think it applies across the board to other fillers.
6. Success and safety depend on you and your reloading technique, which BTW is completely different than what someone else's technique is.
7. Some natural grain/bran fillers absorb moisture from the powder itself and change the powders burning rate. This can be quite a surprise down the road after you've stored it properly and tried it out 8 months after you loaded it.
8. The compression of the filler can cause it to bridge and produce a lot more pressure if it is compressed too much from a light to heavy compression.
9. Case capacity changes the way fillers act and work. The technique for a smaller case capacity might not produce the wanted results in a case of larger capacity.

Now, how do you get around these pitfalls?
1. Pick a slow for the cartridge powder, one which is a single based powder. High nitroglycerine content does not help here at all.
2. Determine its safe starting load (there is data out there, Dupont used to show all its powders and pressures for quite a few jacketed loads which is excellent data BTW).
3. DO NOT go below 80% density with slow burning powder unless useing filler with which you have some history with. "Lets try this" can be a dangerous game here.
4. Use a strong rifle for this until you can determine the practice is safe for a lesser strength rifle (like the Swedes, Argentines etc.).
5. Heavy for caliber boolits help here.
6. Have some sense about what your doing. If the bolt handle lifts hard, you've went way to far. If it is weak sounding, your underloaded and that can cause many problems itself.
7. Fillers work well in a fairly narrow range of loads. What you choose determines what you'll end up with.
8. Finding that happy midroad load to experiment with, for the powder and setup your trying can be difficult to find at the start.
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45 2.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by 45 2.1 View Post
Almost everything has been posted on how to make this run, if you take the time to read my back posts on accuracy and the 6.5 Swede.
That's not quite as easy to do as it is to say. Using the search function in a forum like this with a gazillion (or gigazillion) posts to wade through just doesn't cut it when the message has been a bit cryptic. My initial note in this thread reflected the frustration of the cryptic nature of it all. It wasn't what you thought .

However, it seems today the secret is a lot less of a secret and I understand far better why...

Quote:
The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.
Your hesitancy to get into this is now understood. Thanks for that.

And thanks to Felix....
Quote:
There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves.

This was the most important part of what you said, Felix:
Quote:
...because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing.
And I highly respect the caution behind it. I've done the same thing on other handloading issues for the exact same reason.

Where 45 2.1 said:
Quote:
4. Use a strong rifle for this until you can determine the practice is safe for a lesser strength rifle (like the Swedes, Argentines etc.).
This was really the root of my concern. When you talk 6.5x55 it may be assumed that you're also talking about the m/1896 Swedish Mauser. It would be an automatic assumption as the two just go together like bread & butter. I'm very glad to see here that you make the distinction. I kinda wish you'd make it #1 instead of #4 though .

There are two areas in the vintage rifle world that I've taken on as personal crusades. 1- m/1896 Swedish Mauser safety and to promulgate continued stewardship in the study, research and use.
2- m/1889 Swedish rolling block 8x58R Danish to safeguard limits of safe and prudent handloading and use, moreso than study & research on this one as safety takes priority especially concerning new owners and shooters in their seeking out information as their search most often leads them into areas of incorrect information... that could be fatal.

So, in summary: What you're doing with high velocity (relative term) with cast bullets in the 6.5x55 (not exclusive to the Swedish Mauser) is you're walking a very narrow corridor from Point A to Point B with very little room for error. Small errors in a small ring pre-98 Mauser can, and do often, result in catastrophic failures of the receiver and/or bolt and/or barrel. These failures can also, sometimes, kill the shooter when the receiver grenades. Your hesitation to post an Alpha-Omega instruction guide is hereby understood. Thank you for that. I may now wave off potential experimenters when I'm asked about this practice with the m/96 Swede. Indeed, it should be something done only with experience and a 98 action in the least.

Dutch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
That's not quite as easy to do as it is to say. Using the search function in a forum like this with a gazillion (or gigazillion) posts to wade through just doesn't cut it when the message has been a bit cryptic. My initial note in this thread reflected the frustration of the cryptic nature of it all. It wasn't what you thought .

However, it seems today the secret is a lot less of a secret and I understand far better why...



Your hesitancy to get into this is now understood. Thanks for that.

And thanks to Felix....



This was the most important part of what you said, Felix:


And I highly respect the caution behind it. I've done the same thing on other handloading issues for the exact same reason.

Where 45 2.1 said:


This was really the root of my concern. When you talk 6.5x55 it may be assumed that you're also talking about the m/1896 Swedish Mauser. It would be an automatic assumption as the two just go together like bread & butter. I'm very glad to see here that you make the distinction. I kinda wish you'd make it #1 instead of #4 though .

There are two areas in the vintage rifle world that I've taken on as personal crusades. 1- m/1896 Swedish Mauser safety and to promulgate continued stewardship in the study, research and use.
2- m/1889 Swedish rolling block 8x58R Danish to safeguard limits of safe and prudent handloading and use, moreso than study & research on this one as safety takes priority especially concerning new owners and shooters in their seeking out information as their search most often leads them into areas of incorrect information... that could be fatal.

So, in summary: What you're doing with high velocity (relative term) with cast bullets in the 6.5x55 (not exclusive to the Swedish Mauser) is you're walking a very narrow corridor from Point A to Point B with very little room for error. Small errors in a small ring pre-98 Mauser can, and do often, result in catastrophic failures of the receiver and/or bolt and/or barrel. These failures can also, sometimes, kill the shooter when the receiver grenades. Your hesitation to post an Alpha-Omega instruction guide is hereby understood. Thank you for that. I may now wave off potential experimenters when I'm asked about this practice with the m/96 Swede. Indeed, it should be something done only with experience and a 98 action in the least.

Dutch
You're overrating it Dutch. Yeah it can get you into trouble. What 45 2.1 meant was if you know nothing about it and are going to dive into it, practice on a strong action. It will tell you when you over stepped the limits. A lessor action may not. Now with that out of the way to say you are walking a thin line using it...BALONEY. Both myself, 45 2.1, and others have been blasting away with this technique with many different rifles and calibers. Like I've said before in another post you take your life in your hands everytime you fire a reload you loaded, so in my opinion the technique done correctly (as reloads should be done correctly...no??) it's no more dangerous then a proper reload or factory round. Don't make it sound like a Cobra charmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
So, in summary: What you're doing with high velocity (relative term) with cast bullets in the 6.5x55 (not exclusive to the Swedish Mauser) is you're walking a very narrow corridor from Point A to Point B with very little room for error. Dutch
Not exactly like that, kinda akin to walking down a viking knarr versus a U.S. destroyer (you can still fall into the sea on either one though). A lot less room to walk in, but your not going thru fat mans squeeze in a cave either. Done within resonable limits, it's quite easy (and safe) to do....... if one follows directions (which few people seldom do). Felix described the problem quite well.

I've made the offer several times to actually teach someone to do this safely, one on one, but most people here seem to proud to do that. Several have though. It requires you know how to safely experiment with the proper components. Just like going to school to learn something you didn't know.
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45 2.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT303 View Post
Well my next step with both my 6.5 and 25/303 was to use fillers,I have a bottle of Puff-Lon to try with AR 2209 powder,sold in the states as Hodgden 4350,I have already had success with slower powders,AR2217(Hodgden H1000) simply by filling the case up to the top and seating a 225grn boolit over it in my 303's and it does work,the recoil is toey though.Reading through the Puff-Lon website they actually say to use slower powders with reduced loads and fill the case totally full.That sir is the wrong use of the filler. Just a question,what causes the danger?,does trying to squeeze the filler through the neck spike pressures?,I really do agree that slow is better in regards to that.Joe I'm glad you have posted this up,the trouble with the internet we can only talk with words,not face to face. Pat
That's exactly one of the things we don't want to see the reloader do and I'm quite unhappy that it was mentioned. To all who will attempt this procedure behind the scenes, please do not just fill your case up entirely with filler.

To answer your question just what is the danger? For one the filler reduces the capacity of the case. What might be a real mild load of a certain type of powder in the case without any filler, can be a magnum load with the filler. Think to the powder is not only pushing the bullet it's pushing the filler. You're on track with pushing the filler through the bottle neck too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by longbow View Post
I would very much like to learn what other people have tried with fillers and what their results were.

I have been using fillers for about 3 years so far with positive results, or at least positive results in my view and no negative results. I am certainly no expert though.

I am sure there are many reasons that people want to use fillers. 100% loading density is one good reason and I have read many comments stating if you want 100% loading density then use a case full of slow burning powder.

True enough but that doesn't address reduced loads. Not everyone wants to shoot full loads all the time.

Also, if the powder is slow burning then wouldn't it act as its own granular filler with unburned powder being rammed past the shoulder and through the neck? I doubt the slow powders completely burn in the cartridge and if that is true then they are no more than a granular filler as the unburned powder exits the cartridge to burn on its way down the barrel.

Another comment was to use black powder as filler but again, if the charge is not completely consumed in the cartridge then the black powder would be an awful lot like COW or other granular fillers as it was compressed going through the shoulder and neck then burning further down the barrel.

Correct me if I am mistaken here.

All in all, I suspect that if there was a lot of friction involved in extruding the filler past the shoulder then brass would stretch at an alarming rate and I haven't seen that.

I welcome corrections, comments ~ or best more information.

Longbow
I don't believe slow powders burn completey in the case. I doubt not many powders do.

You asked about the slow burning powder acting like a filler. No, not like the filler we use. It lacks keeping the heat off the bullet and lacks the cushioning.

HOLY C .... Ummmm..... MOLY! I just turned my back for a few days and .... !

Fun and interesting thread, Joe!

(My interest in the Swede is that I think it is a great caliber!)

Quote:
Think to the powder is not only pushing the bullet it's pushing the filler ...
I use cotton wool balls as a bore cleaner (as well as a filler) and what happens is the stuff compacts and increases resistance some - a lot, actually. Might be a factor? As for taking up case volume. Not sure since there is a lot of free space between the fibres. Just how tightly is the stuff being packed?

I only use a filler when the expected pressure is lower than starting loads (or at least a lot lower than max!) Careful consideration is given. (The 25-303 would have similar proportions to the Swede, I think). To me the bad about cotton filler is the fire hazzard!
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Regards
303Guy

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
I don't believe slow powders burn completey in the case. I doubt not many powders do.

You asked about the slow burning powder acting like a filler. No, not like the filler we use. It lacks keeping the heat off the bullet and lacks the cushioning.

Joe

People would be astounded if they ever saw actual powder burn rates in popular length barrels with common loadings. And if it ain't in the case or up the pipe, then it went down range somewhere which means she was burning or attempting to burn the whole way.

I think that full cases of powder do have certain characteristics that act like filler. And as a result I often get good enough results, especially in warmer weather where lube is used up better and remains softer what is left behind.

And with the proper speed powders, my velocities don't change filler or not. That's how I know what the proper powder speed is. As a result, barrel length gives you more powder options too.

Not all filler is the same. The filler I use removes fouling and leaves a stable bore condition for each bullet coming after it. Well, up and until you pass it's capability. Filler isn't an open ended cure all as you do still have to think, compensate, and still deal with limits. Don't cry if your first attempt fails before 4000 fps.

Another advantage is in cold temperatures as it minimizes left over lube in the bore as frozen fouling is harder for a bullet to deal with. It does help in hunting season for me for that first shot that might be a week since you fired the fouling shot before season opened and now you are below freezing. I know people say to thin lube, but they still stiffen dramatically.

A stable bore condition is how I get to the promised land. And a light coat of relaid plastic lube can prevent metal to metal friction too. Sorta like slightly harder Carnauba

Bass Ackwards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Ackward View Post
People would be astounded if they ever saw actual powder burn rates in popular length barrels with common loadings. And if it ain't in the case or up the pipe, then it went down range somewhere which means she was burning or attempting to burn the whole way.

I think that full cases of powder do have certain characteristics that act like filler. And as a result I often get good enough results, especially in warmer weather where lube is used up better and remains softer what is left behind.

And with the proper speed powders, my velocities don't change filler or not. That's how I know what the proper powder speed is. As a result, barrel length gives you more powder options too.

Not all filler is the same. The filler I use removes fouling and leaves a stable bore condition for each bullet coming after it. Well, up and until you pass it's capability. Filler isn't an open ended cure all as you do still have to think, compensate, and still deal with limits. Don't cry if your first attempt fails before 4000 fps.

Another advantage is in cold temperatures as it minimizes left over lube in the bore as frozen fouling is harder for a bullet to deal with. It does help in hunting season for me for that first shot that might be a week since you fired the fouling shot before season opened and now you are below freezing. I know people say to thin lube, but they still stiffen dramatically.

A stable bore condition is how I get to the promised land. And a light coat of relaid plastic lube can prevent metal to metal friction too. Sorta like slightly harder Carnauba.
Bass,

I know lube is of interest to you and your tough testing of it really circles around cold weather use. One of my peers has been pushing me about my soap lube in cold temps. Well finally winter is here in TN and it's cold. I have been out doing some limited shooting with three different rifles and can happily report that so far the lube is holding up just dandy in cold weather...so far. I'll see what it does when it gets extremely cold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
Bass,

I know lube is of interest to you and your tough testing of it really circles around cold weather use. One of my peers has been pushing me about my soap lube in cold temps. Well finally winter is here in TN and it's cold. I have been out doing some limited shooting with three different rifles and can happily report that so far the lube is holding up just dandy in cold weather...so far. I'll see what it does when it gets extremely cold.

Joe

Soap might work with filler especially. But I do know that beeswax and petroleum products as well as most of the common additives thicken or freeze. Fat does too. I got stuck cleaning the freezer this year before season for that trial run.

People often misunderstand my criticism of lubes in cold weather. It's strictly for the first shot of which may be out there a ways. Many lubes will work well after the barrel has been warmed. And if you are shooting low velocities and harder than you need slugs, lube is less of an issue to observe what I test for.

Let's see what soap does. But I gotta tell ya that I've thrown a bar or two (along with the fat) in the freezer since you told me and I wasn't impressed enough to try it. So go for it.

Look, my test load for lube is my 150 grain LBT, 56 grains of RL19 in the 06 at 2600 fps. Above 80 degrees without filler it shoots like a champ. By 50 degrees it's a pie plate killer without filler. Add .5cc of ol #47 and back she comes down to about 10 and then things turn again. So that is what I have been testing lubes with to set my standards. I set the gun and ammo out for at least an hour and then shoot 1 hour between shots for group.

Not telling you how to do it or what to use. Just explaining to folks that think I am too far out there already so they will understand.

Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
Bass,

One more: http://www.polysi.com/dow%20corning%...C%2033%20M.pdf

notice the temperatures in the chart and also notice that most of those are lithium soaps.

Joe

Yea. I tried some of this. (not straight) It's in my 2nd Lyman lubrisizer set up for 35s at this point in time. (?) But I will tell you that it is a long way from something that needs lubrication in the cold and that of an accelerating slug pushing stuff ahead of it in a confined area that will NOT compress that it ultimately must pass. Kind of affects the holding of bore center don't you think?

Yea, this thread may at first appear to be off topic, but lube and bullet design which hasn't even been discussed yet enters into this for high velocity just as much as filler does. I have minimized fouling with bullet design too where filler only is needed for protection against obturation forces.

I applaud this effort. But I guess the question is, how do you separate the discussion of high velocity, which is what this is really about, by just discussing a single variable? Considering the time of year that it is and what people have to deal with, everyone is excited now and I guarantee that somebody is out there banging today. And they are still going to achieve varied results and blame it on filler failure or BS? HV in cold weather is the toughest thing for me.

I think the total package must be considered, but it is your thread and you are teaching so you drive the train. Just figured that some folks might now have wondered why some designs have clean out grooves or standard grooves clear up to the nose?

Bass Ackwards

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
Think about that Pat. Is there a situation where you can seat the bullet and there's still not an air space? Take it another direction. Fill the case with you Puff-Lon and you're telling me the bullet is just setting atop it? What's gripping the bullet? I'll let you think on that and you post back and tell me what you think.

Joe
I was going to neck size the case as usual,then I was going to start with 30grns of AR2209(4350) which is well under the starting load,fill the remainder of the case with buffer,loose fill then compress the buffer by seating the bullet.With the boolit and buffer the ''projectile'' will be around 165-170grns which is still under loaded for that amount of powder.I think I know what you are doing now as far as what your load is,or close to it.I don't feel it is dangerous to go that way by we'll see.I'm also going to try your lube. Pat

I am just sticking my head in here to APPLAUD all involved on this thread. It is about time all the facets of tru HV landed in the same spot. It is all coming together now.....lets keep it going.



I have not done the plastic filler work Joe has...I tend to stick with the easier HV cast cartridges out of mostly pure laziness on my part. I personally use slower than normal powders as a consumable filler on rifle cartridges that are realtively easier to a small degree with a matched tough/mallable alloy in a well fitted boolit with a proper lube for the task at hand. I would not set any records with my loads but for "small groups" capable of fine 300 yard hunting accuracy I am OK to head to the woods.


I would like to see at least one other fella jump in here....you know who you are.

357 Maximum
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by 357maximum View Post
I am just sticking my head in here to APPLAUD all involved on this thread. It is about time all the facets of tru HV landed in the same spot. It is all coming together now.....lets keep it going.



I have not done the plastic filler work Joe has...I tend to stick with the easier HV cast cartridges out of mostly pure laziness on my part. I personally use slower than normal powders as a consumable filler on rifle cartridges that are realtively easier to a small degree with a matched tough/mallable alloy in a well fitted boolit with a proper lube for the task at hand. I would not set any records with my loads but for "small groups" capable of fine 300 yard hunting accuracy I am OK to head to the woods.


I would like to see at least one other fella jump in here....you know who you are.
Mikey,

I haven't shot nearly the amount of the stuff that 45 2.1 has....and he has jumped in here.

Joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
Mikey,

I haven't shot nearly the amount of the stuff that 45 2.1 has....and he has jumped in here.

Joe
Joe your "who" assumption is spot on, but he has not jumped in yet...he has merely stuck a toe in the water. That old codger ain't gonna live forever and I would dearly like to see more of his knowledge shared before they plant his ornery old butt down the road from his house.

^that is Michigan humor^ up there...no one should take it the wrong way I owe about 85% of my HV cast success to that cagey old coot.

JOE: I/we understand the why to his method of teaching as we have been there. I would really like to see him right a book myself. He could reach the masses quicker and maybe make a few bucks writing a book.....not merely assembling one......it is not that hard to place a *caveat* in a post or on a page when the need arises.

BTW ... I want copy #1 and I want it signed.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
Actually, this thread was stickied because of the relevant discussion regarding the tools, materials, and methods used to achieve accuracy with high velocity cast boolits. along with performance

I want to be able to impress myself with MY OWN 300 yard chronograph readings, and if you're reading this thread, that should be your goal as well.

Gear
Gear....

I've added words in red to your quote. Joe started this thread including performance in the equation by using the milk jug vs. paper for his 300 yard target.

Your second paragraph reads condescending to me. You have no idea of my knowledge or what my goals should be for that matter!

This forum is paramount in my definition as to shared experiences. Sure we can do OUR OWN testing and keep it to ourselves... or we can share it!

For your information then gear....

Joe is driving a rather soft boolit at 2300 fps. Add to that, the additional compressive longitudinal load from pushing into a very steep twist... Does Joe's 6.5 boolit take this in stride, or does it collapse some under load?

Therefore... my interest in Joe's 300 yard velocity reading is a measuring tool. Did Joe's bullet change in its coefficient of form during launch? If it collapsed much then a TRUE ballistic coefficient can be derived from Joe's 300 yard reading vs. his muzzle velocity. Joe's velocity at 300 yards will show a "slugged up" boolit if it has changed much. That's my interest.
Eutectic
Eutectic is offline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eutectic View Post
Gear....

I've added words in red to your quote. Joe started this thread including performance in the equation by using the milk jug vs. paper for his 300 yard target.

Your second paragraph reads condescending to me. You have no idea of my knowledge or what my goals should be for that matter!

This forum is paramount in my definition as to shared experiences. Sure we can do OUR OWN testing and keep it to ourselves... or we can share it!

For your information then gear....

Joe is driving a rather soft boolit at 2300 fps. Add to that, the additional compressive longitudinal load from pushing into a very steep twist... Does Joe's 6.5 boolit take this in stride, or does it collapse some under load?

Therefore... my interest in Joe's 300 yard velocity reading is a measuring tool. Did Joe's bullet change in its coefficient of form during launch? If it collapsed much then a TRUE ballistic coefficient can be derived from Joe's 300 yard reading vs. his muzzle velocity. Joe's velocity at 300 yards will show a "slugged up" boolit if it has changed much. That's my interest.
Eutectic
Eutectic,

What do you mean by my bullet may have collapsed? Another way of saying compressed? Here's what I think. There is no doubt there's a difference in my bullet shape before and after firing. I'm sized at .268 and the groove on my Swede is .266-?. So no doubt it's being squeezed into those narrower groove not counting the even more narrow bore. With that said the metal has to go somewhere and that somewhere is length. The length would have to get longer then. So now we have a skinnier and longer bullet then the original unfired one. That should raise the BC I believe . If I'm wrong someone correct me.

Not saying anyone is stepping on any toes here, but let's keep our cool because this thread has done well. So if someone says something that doesn't go down your gullet quite right, try to swallow it and discuss it without a contest. God, nobody knows this more then me because I really get under many member's skin. I hope I'm past that now.

I forgot to say that I've recovered many of those bullets and have been able to get a diagnosis of what's going on in the bore and can definitely say the deep groove fast rifling twist isn't visibly stressing threm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
I forgot to say that I've recovered many of those bullets and have been able to get a diagnosis of what's going on in the bore and can definitely say the deep groove fast rifling twist isn't visibly stressing threm.

Joe
This quote may best describe my term collapse.... Shortening in length. I'm not talking torque forces, although they could be present with the Swede's twist rate. If you have fairly pristine recovered bullets one can look at lube groove wide/depth. Impact with anything hard can trick you as they will shorten then too. Mike the O.D. on recovered slugs as hard impact usually expands diameter as well.

In worse case scenarios. The nose can collapse some during acceleration. I doubt this is your case however.

Might be difficult in Tennessee, but I find a huge drift of fresh dry snow the best for checking fired slugs. (Easy to say here in the Rockies!)

I bought a hundred "Keith" boolits years'ago from a guy. They were 429421's that were hollow pointed. Supposed to be 1 in 16 alloy. Nicely cast, so I bought them, soft as they seemed. I should have hardness tested them but I didn't. They shot pretty decent; but I noticed some holes were "cut" sharper than others in the target. But they were just coyote loads. It was winter so I shot a cylinder full into a BIG drift out back on a whim. Forgot all about them come spring (this is a slow testing process!) I was walking towards my 70 yard target when I found a Keith boolit on the ground. Some searching found two more. THEY LOOKED LIKE SLIGHTLY MUSHROOMED WADCUTTERS!! I showed them to a buddy explaining how they had collapsed in the revolver.
"How do you know that!" He tooted.
"Look at them! The rifling goes their full length!" I returned.

Cast boolits can be full of tricks.

Eutectic

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT303 View Post
Up to now I have always dropped my boolits into water from the mold as it is a common practice but reading Larry's line on soft boolits forming evenly into the bore makes a lot of sense,I can't wait for it to cool down and put theory into practise.This is the best thread we've had for a while. Pat
You can make them shoot both ways. I shoot some that are air cooled and I shoot others that are water dropped. Recently I was shooting BaBore's remake of the Lyman 266469 and they were water dropped. I wasn't shooting the powders I would have liked for it, but with that said my first tests of it were 3/4 inch groups at velocity.

About the centering that is one thing using the 06 brass that is just neck sized and has the neck turned to minimum expansion clearance in the neck portion of the chamber does...centers the bullet. Someone explain to me how a soft bullet forms evenly into the bore if it's off center. Also is that to say if a soft bullet and a hard bullet are centered that the harder bullet won't form evenly into the bore? I'm a little confused with this one. One thing further...this technique also helps the bullet start and go more straight into the bore. It nulls, to a degree, some of the influences that want to make the bullet cant upon initial acceleration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't.

Joe
Ok, I was assuming it would be. Would you mind helping me understand why it can't?

If I'm trying to do essentially the same thing with a .270 Winchester with properly fit and tempered cases why can't I apply the same concepts that worked for the Swede with properly dimensioned brass? IIRC you have used this unconventional loading technique on more than one caliber with good success, and though I know it didn't help much in one instance, it could be tried none the less.

Gear

Joe, I just took two nice whitetails yesterday evening with my CG Swede and (Gulp) softpoint J-words at an embarrassingly close distance. Due to having to shoot fast standing offhand (something I, like most hunters, never practice enough) I chose to shoot them both through the shoulders and punched the neatest little holes through them. Both jumped straight up in the air and ran 30-40 yards before collapsing (both heart-shot), but I think would have gone much further without broken shoulders as they required sidearm finishing shots for the sake of being humane. These little holes, even after hitting bone, is why I dislike j-words in small calibers for hunting deer. There was so little tissue damage that the hearts were edible and most of the shoulder meat wasn't even bruised.

Point is I really don't like to shoot something knowing it will take it two minutes to die. There are far more humane ways to stock the freezer, and that is the primary reason I want to shoot reasonably soft cast with the Swede and .270, it either needs to do to a deer's heart/lungs what your Swede did to that water jug or be so accurate I can take careful head/neck shots at long range, preferably both. Right now my .30-30 win and .30-'06 are the only guns I own that can come close to that goal, and I should have used one of them yesterday except I hadn't ever killed a deer with that particular Swede.

Soooooooo, you know where I am and where I want to be, how about throwing me a bone?

Gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
I wish I had a way of recovering those bullets from yesterday, even with Sierra Gamekings at just over 2600 fps they didn't do much. I'm not sold on the heart shot either, but that's the best choice I had under the circumstances. You may be right about cast not making the Swede a better killer, but I want to see what the wet phone books tell me. First gotta be able to hit one at more than 50 feet. I know it won't work very well at 1500 fps, either.

So you pretty much answered my question by answering SWheeler's, there is always extensive reworking of powder/primer/lube/alloy/temper/boolit fit/boolit style/neck tension etc. when changing cartridge styles/calibers, but much of the methodology for developing such high-velocity, accurate cast boolit loads could remain the same, even thought the "best" loads for even very similar cartridges may be wildly different. I would like to think that a slightly compressed load of IMR 4831 would be more ideal than, say, 80% density of AA 4350 with a stack of filler on top, but I know what works in one place often won't work in another.

Gear
I'm sure the 4831 load would work. But there is something that I, 45 2.1, and others that use this technique are accomplishing. That is HV and extremel accuracy. So you can't really get enough 4831 in that case to give you the HV and I doubt you're going to put the bullets all in one hole. With the filler you make that slow powder produce more pressure at the same time enhancing accuracy pushing the bullet more straight into the bore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT303 View Post
I've tried 4831 in the swede and it did a good job,36grns 2/3rds filled the cases and shot into 1.5'' at 100 yards every time.It will be the first powder I'll try with Puff-Lon,all I want is a good 200 meter load for field rifle comp. Pat
You're getting on track Pat. 4831 is one of the powders I want to try and haven't been able too because my supplier, Wideners, is just about out of every powder.

I can tell you Puff Lon isn't anything like the filler I use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
You're getting on track Pat. 4831 is one of the powders I want to try and haven't been able too because my supplier, Wideners, is just about out of every powder.

I can tell you Puff Lon isn't anything like the filler I use.

Joe
I take it you use something with less "lubricity" than Pufflon that creates more restriction at the case neck and thus higher chamber pressures?

Gear

Eutectic,

Probably less response to rpm theory because of the bug holes I've shot with my 6.5 Grendel at HV with WQ'ed bullets. In other words I'm not totally buying the theory. The bug holes I shot with the Finn 39 were with WQ'ed bullets. I've shot both kinds of bullets in my other three 6.5's with same results. It's not proven and from the shooting I've done, along with 45 2.1, and other's ..it's kind of unproven too.

As for the breach loading of the bullet back in the old days I believe they knew about starting the bullet straight and engraveing the rifling. If you don't believe that maybe this will convince you ...the false loading muzzles on muzzle loaders for starting the bullet straight into the bore and also protecting the crown.

How about jacketed bullets? They have more G's upon them like in the super HV rounds clipping over 4000 fps. Don't tell me the copper jacket is that much protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
I take it you use something with less "lubricity" than Pufflon that creates more restriction at the case neck and thus higher chamber pressures?

Gear
I haven't nailed it down exactly yet but I did start out with the wrong filler and got mighty discouraged fast. There's no doubt the bottle neck configuration of the cartridge plays a big role in this technique.

I thought 45 2.1 told you to pm him? Did you get anything out of that?

Quote "Maybe the oldtimers had something by "breech seating" their cast boolits over a hundred years' ago, huh?

Eutectic"

....And that's also why the ASSRA and other Schuetzen fans still do. It eliminates a ton of variables.

Gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
I haven't nailed it down exactly yet but I did start out with the wrong filler and got mighty discouraged fast. There's no doubt the bottle neck configuration of the cartridge plays a big role in this technique.

I thought 45 2.1 told you to pm him? Did you get anything out of that?

Joe
I did. I await his reply.

You beat me to it on the breech seating comment above, I gotta learn to type faster!

BTW I'm beginning to realize why you took the direction you did with lube development recently.

Gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
As for the breach loading of the bullet back in the old days I believe they knew about starting the bullet straight and engraveing the rifling. If you don't believe that maybe this will convince you ...the false loading muzzles on muzzle loaders for starting the bullet straight into the bore and also protecting the crown.

How about jacketed bullets? They have more G's upon them like in the super HV rounds clipping over 4000 fps. Don't tell me the copper jacket is that much protection. ??

Joe
I thought I brought up breech seating as a good idea? Glad it pleased you and others Joe! Have you tried it by the way? It does work rather well if your breech seating tooling is sized correctly and CONCENTRIC. I suppose if I still shot in any shoots I would still do it... But it is SO inconvenient in the field where most of my load development goes these days.. I have another method almost as good. I have a .375 Winchester single shot. The groove diameter is .3755" I size 375449 boolits to .377". I usually cast out of wheel weights with tin upped to 2%. I cut a long throat in this barrel that mikes .3777" The boolit touches the lands with only 1/8" seated into the case! YES they are fragile and a pain in the field with all lube basically exposed as well but it is doable with care. I load them hot... probably about 40,000psi and they shoot! Do they experience longitudinal shortening as we have discussed?? I am rather certain they do! But they are held concentric by design! Your load may have the boolit shortening up too Joe. I think I've said more than once a load can shoot most excellently with this taking place!

I've attached Speer's take on this of what we speak. With jacketed no less! The jacket is the ONLY thing that kept deformation from going "wild" in the photo! The core material is 2 or 3% Sb I would imagine... 3150fps is faster than we shoot boolits.... well... at least most of us!

If your load is shooting great I'm happy for you Joe but it in no way proves shortening isn't taking place. Consider yourself blessed it is happening concentric and balanced if in fact it is happening.

Eutectic

Thank you for posting the "missing link".

I've followed these threads on the 6.5mm, gave up several times, and then gotten hooked again. This time, I went so far as to form some 50 to 70 6.5x55 cases from LC67Match 30-06 military brass, but balked at springing for the neck turner on Monday when I placed my bi-annual order to Midway. Just didn't think anyone would 'give it up' so I didn't want to waste the money. Just learning the forming steps was fun, but it's still going to be a while before I try the 6.5 with cast. Between the neck turner, pilots, Lyman "M" die, opening up the seater to accept .269"-.270" dia boolits, it's just more time & money than what I want to try right now - besides, I've got lots of 357max, 444, 44Mag HP, 45ACP HP loads to work up.

But, once I get caught up, I'll let my 1902 CG Swed Mauser have a go at it.
OBXPilgrim