That's impressive what you were able to with the Swede especially at that velocity. I'm going to give it try. If I run into any problems I'll seek your help.

Thanks, I'll be glad to help you out. Ronnie pay particular attention to the proper use of the buffer and how to load it correctly into the case. If you need more help on forming the 30-06 cases into 6.5 Swede pm me and I'll give you a little more detail then what is in the thread here.

Okay I'll do that. Give me some time I need to assemble everything I'm going to need and prepare the military 30-06 brass I'm going to use. I will post back when I get some actual shooting in. Go from there.

For anyone interested in scoping a Swede even if it's not for HV cast bullet shooting Allan's Armory has some project Swede barreled actions complete and are T&D'd for scope mounts and have turned down bolt handles. Very fair price. You can't check it out here:

http://www.allans-armory.com/aa.php

Scroll down to the project page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Dylxy3zJc

An excellent example (very visual) of how the RPM affects an unbalanced bullet during the external ballistic phase. You can readily see some of the bullets go off on a tangent in a very non linear fashion. You can also see some of the unbalanced bullets begin a helical spiral in a non linear fashion. This is with subsonic (1100 fps or less) lead bullets out of a 14 or 16" twist with a relatively low RPM. Now imagine the effect if the RPM was higher by either increasing the twist or increasing the velocity. This gives you a visual of the fundamental affects when cast bullets exceed the RPM threshold for the components used.

Joe, 45 2.1, geargnasher, carpetman1 and several others should watch, observe the effects and perhaps learn before claiming the RPM Threshold theory is BS……….they probably won’t and will come back with something but the video speaks volumes about what I have been telling them……..to no avail………

Larry Gibson

So, as expected, joe changes his tune after all his BS in this and previous threads that the bullets don't do that........he never learns. Unfortunatly the proof is in the vidio.......take another look joe and learn.

Larry Gibson

Larry, that's an interesting video..... but I don't know what a video of intentionally deformed .22LR bullets has to do with the subject of cast bullets fired from a fast twist center fire at fairly high velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by rdharma:


Larry, that's an interesting video..... but I don't know what a video of intentionally deformed .22LR bullets has to do with the subject of cast bullets fired from a fast twist center fire at fairly high velocities.

rdharma,

That has me scratching my head too that gibson chose that video to demonstrate something here. The pictured cartridge's bullet is beyond just unbalanced. He just can't get it through his skull that if the bullet is balanced and presented to the bore straight and undamaged that it's very accurate at HV in a fast twist. Actually the twist for the Swede isn't way out of line for the length of the bullets it was designed to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by rdharma:
Larry, that's an interesting video..... but I don't know what a video of intentionally deformed .22LR bullets has to do with the subject of cast bullets fired from a fast twist center fire at fairly high velocities.

Most people know deformed bullets don't act the same way. That fact has been written up several times with photos of the intentional deformation and resultant groups. Orienting deformations brought the groups close to the norm for undeformed bullets. While the video is there, it has little to do with cast loadings properly done...... larry doesn't comprehend what he is doing wrong though, so this diatribe of his keeps coming.

rdharma

The video shows exactly how imbalanced bullets fly. It graphically shows the bullets going off in a non linear tangent or going into the non linear expanding helical spiral. Both of those have been discounted, called BS and generally disbelieved by joe, bob and gear in these threads and numerous others for some years. They've gone to great lengths to discredit me for explaining and proving the laws of ballistics and physics that makes the centrifugal force of RPM make unbalanced bullets in flight inaccurate.

If the 22LR bullets were doing 1100 fps from a 16" twist the RPM would be 49,000+/-. With that we can see how adversely the centrifugal force of even that low RPM affects the accuracy of the unbalanced bullets. As we accelerate a cast bullet to higher velocity the bullet is deformed from setback, obturation, sloughing, friction, heat and rifling configuration, twist and depth. They do not become unbalanced to the degree the 22LR bullets were but even a small degree of imbalance causes inaccuracy.

Up to a certain level of RPM (what exact level depends on many variables) accuracy can be very acceptable. However, at a certain level of acceleration the bullets become unbalanced to the point they demonstrate the inaccuracy causing flight patterns (non linear expansion) shown exactly by the unbalanced 22LR bullets in the video. That point is referred to as the RPM threshold. Thus if we then consider the increased velocity and faster twists of many CF rifles we see the RPM and the centrifugal force becomes exceedingly greater. Even if the deformation of our cast bullets is not to the degree that the 22LR bullets were unbalanced in the video the increased RPM at which we can shoot them (upwards of 200,000 RPM or greater) we would find it causes the same non linear expansion of groups (inaccuracy) as the range increases. The farther we go above the RPM threshold the worse accuracy will become until the bullets don’t even stay on target.

“but I don't know what a video of intentionally deformed .22LR bullets has to do with the subject of cast bullets fired from a fast twist center fire at fairly high velocities”

The answer is simple; the laws of physics and ballistics that make the unbalanced 22LR bullets fly that way also pertain to the cast bullets we shoot. A bullet in flight is affected by the same forces whether it is from a RF rifle or from a CF rifle, whether it is a cast bullet, a swaged bullet or a PP’d bullet. The forces are the same and what we see in one we can see in the other. What is different between them is the degree of imbalance that occurs during acceleration.

As I’ve mentioned many times before; when using regular cast bullets the RPM threshold is not a limit. It can be pushed upwards by using bullet and alloy that limits the amount of deformation to the bullet during acceleration, by keeping the bullet as concentric as possible with the axis of the bore and by using slow burning powders to slow the time/pressure curve.

The video is graphic proof of what happens to unbalanced bullets in flight (all of them including jacketed bullets). Joe and 45 2.1 have gone into babble mode trying to discredit it. Pay attention to the video and what is happening (those 22LR bullets are above their RPM Threshold. To shoot a cast bullet at HV with any useable and consistent accuracy with linear expansion you must push its RPM threshold up by paying attention to the details of the 3 things mentioned. You will be able to push the velocity up but at some point accuracy will go south with flyers and non linear expansion. When that loss of accuracy happens you will have exceeded the RPM threshold for the cartridge/rifle/components used. When that happens your bullets will be flying just as the 22LR bullets are flying in the video.

Larry Gibson

Nobody here believes your crap gibson. Your not going to convince anybody either. Peddle your tricycle elsewhere.

Does anybody have an explanation as to why the bullet filed flat (shown at 01:35) did the "crazy chicken"?

My guess would be inability to stabilize due to LACK of rotational speed.

rdharma,

What it can't understand is the aforementioned shooter who do get great accuracy at HV from fast twists is that our bullets aren't unbalanced and presented to the bore straight. In fact a bullet that's not so well cast can through the loading techniques we use and presented to the bore straight still can shoot some very good groups. This cannot be done by him so he focuses on the negatives. Another unknown thing to him is that fast twist rifling presents something to the bullet far more damaging to accuracy then the supposed rpm. Notice I said supposed rpm because if everything is correct it doesn't effect it. If it did why do jacketed bullets do so well? RPM can't distinguish what the bullet is constructed of.

rdharma

That would be a wrong guess, especially if referring to the helical spiral. Earlier in one of these threads I gave the title of a book on understanding ballistics. You might get it (it is available at many book stores and Cabela's) and read it before you start shooting cast in you're 6.5 Swede. You'll understand alot better what is really happening and why you aren't getting the accuracy joe claims.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
rdharma

That would be a wrong guess, especially if referring to the helical spiral. Earlier in one of these threads I gave the title of a book on understanding ballistics. You might get it (it is available at many book stores and Cabela's) and read it before you start shooting cast in you're 6.5 Swede. You'll understand alot better what is really happening and why you aren't getting the accuracy joe claims.

Hmmmmm! You can't recall the title..... but you highly recommend it.

I think I'll pass .....because it doesn't seem that you learned much about external ballistics from it!

It is not surprising that the flat faced bullet curved. These bullet tests need to be repeaded with identically modified bullets to prove much.
If you ever learned to throw a curve and knuckle ball you know the motion is not totally predictable and a one shot test proves very little.
It would be easy enough to test some of these cast bullet claim using video just as the shooter above did.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
It is not surprising that the flat faced bullet curved. These bullet tests need to be repeaded with identically modified bullets to prove much.
If you ever learned to throw a curve and knuckle ball you know the motion is not totally predictable and a one shot test proves very little.
It would be easy enough to test some of these cast bullet claim using video just as the shooter above did.

SR, FYI it wasn't just one shot. When I developed the load for the rifle I shot it over and over to see if it was consistent or a fluke. It was consistent. After the jug I put my chronograph down there where the jug was with a target. I shot a pretty decent group in that target and the chronograph picked them perfect. I have a 6x45 AR15 shooting cast even better that that Swede.

I just don't shoot one group and post it as some do. My distractors will try to get you to believe that because they can't do any of this. One reason they are working on a copper alloy for cast shooting. It's easier to shoot a harder alloy.

Joe,
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I am talking about the tests with the 22 LR as shown on the video. If you have video I would watch it. Otherwise I am not interested.
I have paid very little attention to the contents of these threads due to the pompousness and bombast that goes on forever and ever and ever.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Joe,
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I am talking about the tests with the 22 LR as shown on the video. If you have video I would watch it. Otherwise I am not interested.
I have paid very little attention to the contents of these threads due to the pompousness and bombast that goes on forever and ever and ever.

SR, my apologies...I was off track on that one. SR I figure this way, isn't a man's word good enough anymore? I know that isn't in context with your question either and understand what you mean you'd be interested in watching a video...me too. I'd consider videoing a shooting session but I just don't have the equipment. Would need like 3 cameras, one of the shooter, one of the chronograph, one of the target. I suppose you'll say use one camera, but you don't know my distractors.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Joe,
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I am talking about the tests with the 22 LR as shown on the video. If you have video I would watch it. Otherwise I am not interested.
I have paid very little attention to the contents of these threads due to the pompousness and bombast that goes on forever and ever and ever.

SR, my apologies...I was off track on that one. SR I figure this way, isn't a man's word good enough anymore? I know that isn't in context with your question either and understand what you mean you'd be interested in watching a video...me too. I'd consider videoing a shooting session but I just don't have the equipment. Would need like 3 cameras, one of the shooter, one of the chronograph, one of the target. I suppose you'll say use one camera, but you don't know my distractors.

I am an engineer. Engineers run controlled experiments that can be repeated and get the same results. From the experiment data is gathered, compiled and analyzed. When video is possible that is even better because you can see directly what is happening. You are not having to infer data from a target.
Considering how strongly people feel toward this subject and how likely someone will try to advance their agenda to avoid eating crow I would not be inclined to take anyone's word.
The important thing is to get to the real facts and limits, not validate someones long held belief that may be partially or totally wrong.

I recently worked with another engineer qualifying the sintering of porous titanium to a titanium hip stem implant. Both of us had our theories for what worked. But the goal was to develop a coating that was 3X stronger than the minimum FDA requirement. There was no room for either of us to be wrong or right only that the optimum coating be developed. You cannot see to tinker with the process much when the temperature is 2400 degrees inside a vacuum furnace at 1X10-7 mm of hg or torr.

Well I see the 6.5 Swede has reared it's ugly head again on the castknowitall.com forum. Same BS with the same cast of characters. The BS is that one can't shoot high velocity with very good accuracy from the 6.5 Swede because of it's very fast twist. Total rubbish. The people that say they are satisfied with 15-1600 fps aren't convincing anyone. I really feel they are caving in to the aforementioned cast of characters. If fact if you're satisfied with those velocities why not make a wildcat 6.5 pistol cartridge, say like neck down a 7x62x25 Tokarev to 6.5. Save on powder and bullet alloy.

You have to have the right bullet and it has to fit the throat correctly. This coupled with non secret loading techniques will get you there. These loading techniques have all be posted in more then one place.

One of the characters telling everyone that the old NRA formula of 50/50 Alox/Beeswas, Javelina a notable one (which is no longer in production) is capable of some very high velocities is total rubbish. You really do need to have a more modern lube that is up to the task. I've developed a soap based lube that accomplished this and it has taken me quite a while to perfect. I turned out some really crappy versions of it at the beginning. That is no longer true. The lube doesn't exhibit cold barrel or first shot flyers, doesn't lead, actually leaves very little residue in the bore, increases velocity, doesn't get hard in cold temperatures nor soft in the summer sun and heat. One of the biggest nemesis of such lube over on castknowitall.com forum is old Mikey Tissue. He's been a thorn in the side to geargnasher who has done great work in lubes along with some others in a lengthy thread over there. Maybe he should change his name to Scott Tissue because he sure is an asswipe just like the toilet paper. Take more swipes at me Mike and you'll get them back ten fold.

Don't let the fast twist Swede and naysayers limit you to low velocities or beat you.