m/1894 & m/1896 Swedish Mauser twist rate is 200mm which is one turn in 7.874 inches.

The origin of this twist rate: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...095#post774095

Dutch

Maybe something, maybe nothing.. but it jumped out at me and it may very well be a factor that could skew your entire test.

The Swedish replacement barrels are short chambered. They will chamber but they'll give a "crush" feeling. Its not the case shoulder mashing into the chamber shoulder. Its the case mouth "crimping" into an incomplete chamber, (see the yellow circle).

I've seen this situation in a Turkish Mauser with a new m/96 barrel installed where the fellow did not drop a go gauge into the chamber after installing the barrel. He assumed... He got under MOA accuracy but the primers showed definite signs of high pressure, so maybe this won't apply to your rifle. But there's only one sure way to know.. When I looked at the fired cases from this Turk-Swede I saw something that the fellow who owned it didn't see. The case mouth was crimped *inward*. It was exactly as you would imagine a case mouth would look like if it was forced into a chamber that wasn't long enough.

You say your rifle is "very tight". As meticulous as you are (some may use words other than "meticulous" ) you'll understand that I don't accept "very tight" as having anything other than an arbitrary meaning. In other words, it means nothing.

Did you actually use a headspace gauge in this rifle after you installed the barrel?

If you don't have a SAAMI "go" gauge I'll gladly lend you one but I don't have a chambering reamer should your rifle require reaming to bring it to SAAMI specification. FYI- the SAAMI "go" gauge is actually shorter than the Swedish military "go" gauge. I have a very valuable set of Swedish military regimental-level gauges, brand new, and all 3 SAAMI gauges: http://dutchman.rebooty.com/headspace.html

What "factory" ammo are you referring to here? American factory ammo or Swedish? The replacement m/38 barrels and m/96 replacement barrels were throated for the 156 gr round nose bullet. The military pretty much had to stay with that particular specification due to the variety of ammunition in use. Even with that throat the 139 gr m/41 sniper bullet produced outstanding accuracy.

Anyway... maybe something, maybe nothing.


Dutch

The test described is outside of the loading parameters I gave. The tolerences are not as prescribed and the rifle is not a standard Swedish mauser, but an abortion that is quite modified from its original form. Until you get these things in line, you are doing "Lets try this" which isn't going to give answers to the questions asked by other members.

Lee used to make specific rifle taper crimp dies. These are not the collet type crimp dies.
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45 2.1

just went and checked my M70 Classic .30-'06 chamber dimensions with an impact slug and I found my cases have about .005" combined clearance (.0025" radius) even with the oversized (.310") boolits I have been using. Pulled boolits still @ .310". This gun shoots an honest 2" at 100 yards at ~2700 fps, often much smaller but I won't claim "average", I figure a gun is only as accurate as the largest group it shoots with a given load.

I want to narrow down, for my own testing and the testing of others, what the particular obstacles are with shooting cast in a Military Swedish Mauser accurately and fast. It has been said that it is possible to shoot ~130 Gr. boolits at at least 2300 fps into an inch at 100 yards. I think that is pretty good for ANY caliber with cast, but I don't see what in particular is the holdup with the Swede. I KNOW there is an obstacle, I can't even come close to that yet, most of my "patterns" have been just that, sprinkle the 8-1/2"X11" target with holes. WHY is this one so different?

Based upon past reading, here are a few, not all I'm sure, mentioned obstacles:

>>Military Swedish Mausers usually have oversized chamber necks and extremely long throats, necessitating the use of specially formed cases and carefully fit, often custom-designed, boolits. Why is the chamber neck so critical? Not so much with other calibers, why does a few thousandths make accuracy go from minute of backstop to minute of angle? It doesn't in other guns, it only makes an inch or two difference at most. There must be more to it than that.

>> State of anneal. I know case neck tension and consistency of that tension is an accuracy key. Again, in my experience it has only meant a difference of an inch or two at most in group size, not whether you hit the target paper or not. There MUST be more to it than that.

>>Twist rate. The Military Swedes have a fast twist and deep rifling. So what. If I can get to 2700 accurately with no real special loading techniques or especially well-fitting brass and a 1:10 why can't I get that with a Swede at, say 2150? There is obviously more going on than the twist rate or RPM threshold.

>>Powder burn rate. People have been experimenting for years with this in great detail. Most of us can assume that what works for one gun won't work for another exactly the same way, so that will probably remain a variable unique unto each particular gun, but we should be in at least a certain ballpark for certain velocities with particular alloys and particular velocity ranges. I can tell one thing from what others have posted and my own experimentation, there is no best powder for the Swede.

>>Fillers. Now that changes everything, especially powder selection and pressures. Why does it affect accuracy so much? We've seen consistent ignition and low ES with some of Larry's first test results, and accuracy was still terrible. So it stands to reason that the filler really is doing more with "cushion" and "protection" as well as aiding clean, straight muzzle exit. I think we can safely say that fillers are doing more than "bridging the neck" to get good, even ignition and consistent pressure build. If that were the case, any filler would do.

>>Crimp. I've found with other calibers crimp won't substitute for neck tension much. Most of the time I delete crimping entirely for this reason. I don't know for sure what works best here with the Swede, but I can see using tight, hard case necks and a bridging filler may give good consistency at launch with minimal or no crimp. I've seen at least one reference to .0015" interference fit or "neck tension" and many references to "standard benchrest loading practices" which fall pretty close to that. Again, I don't see that it matters 12" or better in group size no matter what crimp you use.

>>Lube. I have pushed some lubes to the point of failure. Very few good lubes I know of will fail to perform at 2000-2500 fps, which I believe is the realistic window here. I don't believe that lube alone will get groups from a foot to an inch.

>>Alloy. Seems to be straightforward. Use a tough, springy but not too hard alloy. This can be achieved by using a fairly low-Sb alloy and heat treating or "water dropping" it to get hardness with a tough, springy and resilient nature. Fairly generous leeway here.

>>Gas checks. No one here can convince me easily that material, style, or brand will make that much difference.

>>Chamber dimensions. I think Felix explained that quite well above, and I agree with him.

So what are we REALLY up against here? Is it just a matter of "tolerance stacking" with each variable being mysteriously magnified? WHAT ELSE AM I MISSING?

It just doesn't compute.

Gear

The Swede deep rifling in hard on a cast bullet. For one thing the deeper rifling is harder for the bullet to fill out the grooves evenly and yet keep the axis of the bullet centered. We know the fast twist puts additional strain on the cast bullet.

It's not quite right to say the Swedes have oversized chambers...oversized in comparison to what? A modern rifle? Don't forget they didn't have those when the Swede was designed. They were designed for military use. The reason for the thicker case necks are to more center the bullet with the bore. So why not use the thickest you can tailor to what you want? You can do this with you modern 06 too ya know.

So coupled with the so called oversized chambers, the deep fast twist rifling you can see why you want to have the bullet centered to the bore as much as possible and that brings us to launch. You want to be able to launch that bullet as gentle as possible and remember too that the launch can also cause a bullet to go off center....thus the reason for the buffer. It has the ability to aid those two things.

The long throat was for the original long bullet. I think the term custom bullet mold is more close to saying one that drops a bullet fat enough for use in the Swede. Many of them already fit the throat length. For example the 266469 is long enough and the older molds use to drop bullets fat enough too.

The 6.5MS has many of the same attributes as the Swede. Mine only has the chamber as the bore and groove are modern.

I'll make it simple for him where he doesn't have to do a lot of tests. Everybody here is interested in the "pressure curve and velocity" of the load that gave Joe 1/2 MOA groups in a stock Swede action, stock and barrel as the Swedish armorers put on the armory racks ready for service by their countrymen. Thats what everybody else here has, not your home gunsmithed parts gun. Joe put on a scope where he could see what he was aiming at. You are allowed the same privilage as long as you do not change the original bedding or anything the Swede armorers did. Everybody here wants to see the results from a stock Swede.

Joe shot the 6.5 Kurtz boolit in that test series, which by the way were sent as cast with no sizing, gas checks or lube on them. He did shoot a 6.5 cruise missle 1/2" group with boolits that were cast, sized, gas checked and lubed by me. So it seems you need to shoot either the 6.5 Kurtz group buy boolit or the cruise missle boolit and none other. BRP will be producing the 6.5 Kurtz boolit to original spec and possibly the cruise missle also. Your details on most of what you wrote above are wrong.

Your job here is to duplicate Joes 4350 load (about 30 to 31 gr. thereof for the 6.5 Kurtz boolit, should you choose the cruise missle then have Joe post his load data) with the correct case fit, neck clearance of 0.001" total with military brass and the right filler used as noted in the original instructions. You will have to match his accuracy also, because unless it is accurate the load isn't correct. I want to see you shoot the same series Joe did, 4 five shot groups with accuracy of 1 MOA or less to prove you got it, then you can do the pressure tests on that load.

Do You think that you can do that?

If you can't then tell use and admit you can't. An answer that evades the guidelines here will be considered as proof you do not intend to help solve the pressure curve information everyone wants on that load. Just the basic load...get it? No excess verbage to make you seem to look good either, just plain facts and group posts without adornment. Everybody here can decide for theirselves without your help then.

For the record, I do crimp slightly and try not to anneal. I like very hard case necks in this caliber and will slightly draw an old lot of cases when necks start cracking.
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45 2.1

Gear,

It's been noted here how to do it. 6.5 Kurtz bullet, sized .268, fired from the prepared 06 case, with the given shot shell buffer. I gave the powders and loads I used. I gave the lubes and I mentioned I crimp them.

By the way Javelina beeswax/alox lube is good in that velocity range you gave from 2000 to 24-2500 fps that you mentioned lubes handling. My lube has gone over 2700 fps in my 7mm08 which has a faster twist then your 06.

You can shoot a zero clearance round provided there is no boolit expansion within the case neck. That is obvious, isn't? Fillers, slow powder, soft primer, hard boolit all go together for this application. The real question is, is that amount of tight control necessary for the accuracy required? I don't know, and I hope not because of lot to lot variances of the components, especially with a softer boolit. ... felix
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felix

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
You can shoot a zero clearance round provided there is no boolit expansion within the case neck. That is obvious, isn't? Fillers, slow powder, soft primer, hard boolit all go together for this application. The real question is, is that amount of tight control necessary for the accuracy required? I don't know, and I hope not because of lot to lot variances of the components, especially with a softer boolit. ... felix
Felix,

I already posted something to effect you are asking. Changing nothing else but the brass case the accuracy went south from the bug hole. That is using PMC, Norma, and commercial 06 (which by the way in some instances was thicker necked then the Swede or MS factory brass) the accuracy suffered. So apparently it has lots to do with the Swede and MS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Joe, it stops when everyone understands what makes a gun shoot. Until then, any bragging must be substantiated. Best to never brag which eliminates the need to pass the buck. ... felix
Not very many understand how to make a gun shoot excellent groups. He already posted groups...........excellent groups at high velocity BTW..........groups that were thought impossible by the majority here............ perhaps that wasn't good enough to substantiate the methodology in your opinion? Will anything you or anybody else posts be good enough then? Do you have to see it with your own eyes to believe it (be carefull how you answer as some things have eternal consequences as you know)?
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45 2.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Joe, it stops when everyone understands what makes a gun shoot. Until then, any bragging must be substantiated. Best to never brag which eliminates the need to pass the buck. ... felix
Felix,

Can't a fellow just post shooting milk jug full of water and commenting how impressed he was how hard that cast bullet hit it? It wasn't referring one iota to the talent or skill needed to do that. Shucks me, 44man, 45 2.1 and a whole host of others can do it with a handgun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
I thought you would have understood the vernacular of firearms terminology.
And I would've thought you would accept my concerns in the spirit they were offered.

Quote:
I have also measured the headspace of numerous M96s and find them to vary greatly as was the practice with Mausers of that period. Apparently the headspace of the M38 was held to much tigher specifications when they rebarreled the M96 actions into that M38 style of rifle.
In 1948 the Swedish military changed headspace protocol. This is why there "seems" to be so much varying. Not really. When you're not aware of these two different standards you could assume much in error. The military gauges and translated instructions on my website are the 1948 version.

Many/most of the m/96 converted did not receive new barrels. So the headspacing wouldn't have been any different. Some rifles did get new barrels, and many of those new barrels were Husqvarna m/38 barrels with m/38 rear sights already installed. But those are way in the minority of conversions.

Quote:
As I noted the test is just beginning. Perhaps it would be best if we all waited for the tests to be completed and I've made a conclusion be fore we criticis or make such judgements as "maybe something, maybe nothing". Otherwise you've just got the cart before the horse.
Like I said, too bad you couldn't accept what was offered in the spirit it was offered. I'll not make that mistake again.

Dutch

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Bob (45/2.1), like you say, most folks here don't want to take risks they feel are beyond their safety limits. These same people have their safety limits established by other folks thought to be experts by them. Therefore, your by-line is most appropriate here, and I will take your present warning to NOT lay down a blow-by-blow description for reloading a particular gun. ... felix
Felix, I agree with 45 2.1 also on this, but up until now there wasn't anyone competent, equipped, knowledgeable, or willing enough to undertake some "amateur" internal ballistic measurements and share the results which could establish some safety limits. I'm hoping that Larry's tests gan give some of that "UNDERSTANDING" to this issue so the rest of us can add a measure of safety to our own experimentation.

For example, I want to know some details about why Joe shoots 31 grains of AA4350 and gets 2200 fps and itty, bitty groups and Larry shoots the same load with different brass, a more free-flowing filler, and gets 1965 and gets minute of 5-gallon bucket. Joe said his method "is a pressure raiser, for sure" and he pointed out more than once how he is getting way over book velocities for a given charge of powder. That's the point many of us began to figure out what they were doing, and no doubt it's dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. But who does with this stuff? Many of us here are trying to figure out safe ways to approach this, trying to understand what's going on so we can manage the monster safely without having to strap our test rifles to the bench under a flak vest and pull the trigger with a 20' string. (although that would probably be a really good idea in some cases).

Gear

For example, I want to know some details about why Joe shoots 31 grains of AA4350 and gets 2200 fps and itty, bitty groups and Larry shoots the same load with different brass, a more free-flowing filler wrong filler which acts differently, review post #205 on page 11 for reference, and gets 1965 and gets minute of 5-gallon bucket. Its all in knowing how to do it right. Joe said his method "is a pressure raiser, for sure" You can hear the difference for a very small powder change when you're at the right place. and he pointed out more than once how he is getting way over book velocities for a given charge of powder. That's the point many of us began to figure out what they were doing, and no doubt it's dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. The dangerous part is an under or overload with the powder of choice. Determining what the proper range is takes some experience. But who does with this stuff? Several very private people who won't discuss their tests except with like minded individuals who avoid established groups and the internet sites like a plague. Many of us here are trying to figure out safe ways to approach this, trying to understand what's going on so we can manage the monster safely without having to strap our test rifles to the bench under a flak vest and pull the trigger with a 20' string. (although that would probably be a really good idea in some cases). Joe can be quite bothersome at times ........... during the entire learning how to do this he contacted me a lot....told me what he did with what and showed me group pictures, then wanted to know what to do next. Most of the time he didn't follow directions or did it his own way (thats what Larry is doing now). After wearing down some and not getting results, he actually started following directions correctly and did what he was told to do...........then he got some nice results which he posted.
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45 2.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
You know the general rule about fillers in that they cannot be allowed to result in a plug which would provide significant resistance on their own merits. Ideally you would need a plastic that would melt (flow) at the exact moment of "perfect" pressure, which depends upon the obvious mechanical factors, such as neck angle and boolit inertia taken together. ... felix
Another filler which does this very thing is ground corn cob. It is quite usefull for abrupt case shape change useing a paper towell wad. Too much powder behind it will tear a piece of the case neck off and take it down the bore with the cob filler. DO NOT TRY THIS in the Swede with a boolit in front of it either.
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45 2.1

Continuing what Bob said, as the pressure builds at the base of the boolit first, the case expands and can allow any granular filler to get between the boolit base and the case, thereby effectively DECREASING neck clearance. A hard necked case helps immensely when the neck clearance is critical and the boolit inertia high and the boolit hard. ... felix
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felix

I'm using a neck sizer die that I made that doesn't bring the neck done excessively far. I already stated to Felix that my expander plug is .002 under the bullet size. My bullet sizer is .268. I use a Lee factory die to crimp my loads as I do crimp them. I'm running loser tolerances in the necks then 45 2.1 is. I don't recall 45 2.1 remarks on Larry's neck clearances but I certainly don't have any problems with what Larry is doing in that area. He knows the route of using 06 brass for thicker necks. Yeah the Swede also has a fatter case too then the 06 family. Remember my very first loads fired with fresh prepared 06 cases have the thin 1/8 inch strip around the case to center the rear of the case in the chamber and I don't have to fool with firing them a bunch of times to get them to swell out evening all the way around. A real pain in the butt too. The bullets we have fill those long throats very well.

I'd like to get off this benchrest stuff and stick more to loading for the Swede with the buffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
Ok, if the buffer is all it takes, then that would be wonderful. I'm just pointing out that 45 2.1 directed .0008-.0010" neck clearance to another member here once, and reiterates in his instructions in this thread .001" neck clearance at least twice and says that is part of the reason Larry's first test groups were not good.

If perfect fit wasn't critical, why would he keep bringing it up?

Gear
Yeah, well my neck clearance is what I said and I was able to do it. I've also been able to do with powders 45 2.1 said won't do it. Then when I talked to him about it he said they have a very narrow window range. Apparently I lucked into that window with the 6.5MS. He told me to use 3100 for the Swede, didn't have any so got 4350 to work. I've also got some really good results with duplexing 860 surplus and using the Cruise Missile got some really mine boggling velocities with decent accuracy. 45 2.1 wanted me to post them and I said no, wasn't my traditional bug holes so I didn't. By the way I don't consider my Swede load with 4350 as really really super HV. It's fast yes, but that's how I feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
Soooooo, do you have any further suggestions for Larry's next test?

45 2.1, how about you? Or is he going to waste his time with what he's doing?

Gear
His procedure, NOW, seems to be OK, as long as he doesn't test random charges as he seems to be wanting to do. He needs to find the sweet spot and test it. That spot is determined by accuracy alone. Unless he does that he would be hitting around the targeted area, not on it.

Half a thousandth is usually written 0.0005" and is the tightest anyone should go. I've been at this longer and have more specialized tools to do it with.
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45 2.1

The purpose of my test is two fold. First is the accuracy at HV I understand the "sweet spot". But without critical load information one has to "work up a load". With both the 4895 and AA4350 powder tests there was a progression of the loads, working up in the classical sense There is nothing classical going on here. You had the sweet spot load for Joe's load. Your workup or down should have been in 0.2 gr. increments instead of 2 gr. ones. Had you been useing the right stuff the right way, you would have stopped your series quite soon. , based on the generalized information starmetal gave. Thus I started at or near his loads and worked up. The "worked up" brings us to the second reason for the tests.

With the AA4350 I did experience "hard bolt lift" with one load. However other than the hard bolt lift there were no other indications of pressure. There was no measured indication of high pressure either. The measured pressure had smooth and consistent pressure traces with no spikes. The next load which was 2 gr more powder gave no hard bolt lift or any other sign of high pressure. It also measured a smooth pressure trace and it had the expected linear increase in pressure. The intitial conclusion here is that something other than high pressure is causing the hard bolt lift. Further testing will provide more data for a better or perhaps different conclusion. However, in order to find that data test loads must go up into that realm. Thus i will continue to "work up" the loads with each powder. This will give us a sound and correct understanding of what the pressure is actually doing. I caution you to NOT do that with the correct filler. You've been told.

Questions;

I understand that 31 gr AA4350 is the "sweet spot" in starmetals rifle. However it only produced 1965 fps. Starmetals load produced the reported 2200+ fps. Having shot many loads through both the Mex and the M38 with very little difference in velocity between them I do not expect the same load to pick up 250-300 fps simply because of the change to the M38. Do you think the use of "original" filler instead of the #47 will increase the velocity 250-300 fps? The two fillers are not comparable, one bridges and the other does not. If the change in rifles and filler does not get me up to 2200+ fps do you suggest working up with more than 31 gr AA4350 untill the velocity is at the level of starmetals? Try the 31 gr. level first with the right stuff and see what you get. Your smaller lighter boolit will cause some problems here also.

When I test 3100 in the M38 with the "original filler" what powder charge do you suggest I work around? The instructions were for slow burning powders, not 4350 and faster (which occupy less room in the case). Load according to the instructions.

As always, thanks for your help.
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45 2.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT303 View Post
I could safely say that I,like many others are getting a bit bored with the too and throwing that always seems to happen on 6.5 threads.When I comes to good groups there wouldn't be a time ever where people would not start to ask questions on how it was achieved,you must have realised Joe that posting up a picture of a tiny group and a first round hit on a milk jug at 300 yards would have got peoples ears up,I also feel that 45 2.1 comments about ''there is a small group of people that know the secrets and stay away from public forums like the plague'' line is negative at best,people want to learn,thats why we are here.Maybe if ''we'' are so below the important people maybe ''they'' should start thier own forum,the rest of us can be happy with 1 1/2 groups and the experts can take thier secrets to the grave.How about Larry you follow instructions,Joe you keep posting up good results and the rest of us will learn something new everyday. Pat
Pat

I got the load for that Swede and it's just like a favorite jacketed load that's sighted in. My Swede is sighted in at 100 yards and now at 300 with my next mil dot down on the recticle. Unknown to all here I've been shooting groundhogs and crows all along. I recently missed a feral cat exactly where that milk jug was. That's the reason for the milk jug shot, to see why I didn't hit the cat. Reason: I shot way over it. I took another feral cat out years ago with the very first shot from my 6.5 Grendel at exactly 100 yards. He was facing me and it was literally between the eyes. I have distances marked off around my farm. I've also nailed a crow or two with my scoped Yugo SKS.

By the way H1000 is too slow and that AA2217

Paydirt Again
Fellows, while many of you may have thought I wasn't doing anything with the Swede, I've actually been out testing and testing and testing...trying to find the sweet spot with different powders. No I still haven't gotten any Accurate 3100, but I did get some H4831, Reloader 22, and Vihtavour N160.

Now before I begin I'd like to say I'm getting fed up with some of the members here accusing me of lying. Mainly Mr swheeler. I get these rotten pm's from him to that effect. I can't understand it as he and I were good friends. At any rate that's between he and I and what you will get here in this report is no fancy book size post from Larry Gibson with his fancy Oehler. You're going to get a condensed to the point honest report.

Okay, the target shown was shot today with five rounds each, one set loaded with 35 grains of Reloader 22, the other five set loaded with 35 grains of N160. Both had the shot buffer in them, the brass was 06 WCC53, and primers Wolf Large Rifle. The bore was cleaned before the shooting. On the group at the upper right was the first shot from the clean barrel. That group is 1 inch. there are two flyers low left. Both these loads shoot higher then my 31 grain 4350 load and they should because they are faster!!!!! Yes you read that right. They are clocking over 2400 fps. No chrono pics, don't believe, tough horse hockey.

Now some more interesting information. Being both those powders are slower then the recommended 4831 and especially the Accurate 3100 by 45.2.1...I did with the first test loads load them as he had specified with the powder a dime thickness below the case wall/body junction and the rest buffer. I had told 45.2.1 that they didn't group well, especially the N160 loads, but they seemed to be really cracking along pretty good. Well I was right. I loaded some for the chrono and they were doing 2879 fps with the N160 powder. Get this, they were staying on the paper, but the group was terrible. They didn't keyhole, they didn't strip and lead the bore, and they didn't fly off into wonder wonder land. This was with AC 50/50 alloy.

So now I'll close in with minute increment changes in the powder to tighten that group. So now we're up to little over 2400 fps with accuracy.

was out with the Swede again today and I used that same load of 35 grains of R22 and 35 grains of N160 except I exchanged the group buy Kurtz with BaBore's remake of the same bullet. I believe this to be the first shooting posted of his bullet. Where as the Swede like the original Kurtz with both powders, it favored the R22 load with BaBore's bullet. In fact I believe it shot a smaller group with it excluding the first clean bore fouling shot which is the most top one in group.

Buckshot: New targets, this time I bought the ones with those 3 35 caliber clean cut holes on the left instead of the right.

Here's the target and you can see how the rifle didn't like the N160:

Originally Posted by goofyoldfart View Post
Well, I read all 26 pages of this thread. Must say that my eyes are both bloodshot at this point. I have a CG M38 and all I want to do with it is shoot heavy for caliber @around 1400--1600 FPS. in a good hollow point with a good metplat. The rifle is too nice to run the risk of damaging (or my fat old body 2) , I just want something to plink and penetrate out to about 150--175 yds. I don't need the HV stuff. The rifle and I have one thing in common and that is we're both old (and beautiful ) and don't want to damage either. when I hunt I'm lucky if I can see that far. So, Joe, feel free to bash me as a Woose-Puss or anyone for that matter It was interesting to see the thought and effort that was put into the project and I learned a lot. one of the major thing s that I learned is that it is Not my cup of tea. Great for those that want to do that stuff. Learned a lot about the Swede. all of it helps.

I would be interested to any that wish to share the knowledge for the LOW velocity load mentioned -- what would be the best heavy for caliber bullet in this range? I have never loaded for the Swede or any 6.5 for that matter. Loaded plenty for pistols and 30's and 8MM. Hell, 30 years ago I was shooting 3006 180's (cast) at 2500 FPS. Like a damm fool, I don't have the data in my records. Youngun's often are more interested in shooting rather that data collection. After I eroded a few throats and had to buy new rifles, I started to get smarter. So, long story short, any help appreciated, Thanks.
You won't get the bashing from me. If you are satisfied what you are doing..that's what counts for you. Only two things I will say is you would really have to work hard in the wrong manner to damage your rifle and the other is boy the Swede is really nice shooting at those yardages you mentioned with a little more velocity.....such as my milk jug shot. Too bad the coyotes killed off most the groundhogs because this would be a jim dandy load for them.

esterday I wanted to go out and fire form some of the 30-06 military brass I just prepared. You know the format on that, the wrapping of Scotch Tape around the solid web portion of the case to center it in the chamber for even expansion while the cast bullet and thicker neck centers the front end. I wasn't expecting very good results on initial fire forming but had some other problems that interfered with the shooting. I let a friend of ours hay my fields which in one is my shooting range. With all the rain we have been getting he hasn't had an opportunity to do this yet. Last week I set up some target and sat at my bench and couldn't see the target due to the height of the grass. So I run back and forth with my ATV half a dozen time and matted down a path. It was fine for that day, but when I went out yesterday to shoot those fire forming loads, some of it sprung up and plus there was a breeze blowing some of it back and forth through my line of fire. I said what the heck, I just want to form this stuff. I shot ten round and I was amazed that the first three went into one hole and then shooting through the grass and heating the barrel up, I ended up with a 2 inch group. I says "hey, this requires some more loading and testing". I got the formed brass and reloaded and haven't been back out yet. I will give you the load here which maybe, must maybe may work for you. Like I said I didn't want to waste my more expensive good powders so I used my 860 surplus. I of course used the technique described in this thread. Bullets were BaBore's re-cut of the Lyman 266468 which he got to drop at the proper fatter diameter. I sized them to .268 and used a very firm crimp with the Lee factory crimper. I put them across the chronograph and they were going 2424 fps. I thought that's not bad for a 140 grain bullet. I'll retest that load and I won't be shooting through no grass this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Corrigan View Post
I have not had the time nor the inclination to read this thread completely. But for an easy on the pocketbook and shoulder loading for this calibre I have had some success.

I had a custom rifle built onto an BRNO Czcech 98/22 Mauser action. The gunsmith put on a Douglas Match barrel, Buhler safety, thumb hole laminated stock, jeweled the bolt, did some work on the bolt face, cleaned up the screwholes in the baseplate under the magazine and blued it beautifully. It came out just like I wanted. The only drawback is that it is very heavy to lug around. But from a rifle rest on a good bench it is a tackdriver with:

A Lyman 266469 cast boolit of straight ww water quenched with nothing added except I also throw in the stick on weights. I waste nothing. I size it to .266 in my SAECO lubricizer with lars Carnuba Red and add a gas check.

Using a commercial PMC casing which I bought cheap at the Brassman for only $121 per 500 cases I put in 10 gr of Unique powder and using a Lee expander die open up the case mouth so as not to shave the lead offa the base seat my round.

No, I did not FL size the case first....it fits fine in the gun. With this loading I get decent accuracy and low recoil at over 440 yds. I have not chroned the loading yet but I suspect it is moving somewhere in the area of 1600 FPS.

I have been able to get groups of less than an inch at 100 yds and at my range there are two steel targets set out at 300 and 440 yds. The closer one is 18" x 30" and the far one is 24" x 36" They are set on steel posts in concrete and are angled down about 15 degrees to prevent richochets.

The area around them is chewed up pretty good and when you hit the target you will see a big dust cloud form at the base and then hear a distinct clang from the steel. No matter if you are shooting a .223 or a 50-90 you will hear the clang if you hit it. If you miss you will see a major dust cloud from the impact.

If you have your spotter set up the scope directly behind and above you he can watch the last half of the bullet flight in the air and really tell you where you are hitting the target.

There is a can of black spray paint at the target if you are so inclined to really be picky however. I figure if I can hit these targets with regularity the loading is pretty good at that range.

The last time I used this gun with this loading I went down to the target prior to shooting and sprayed it with the paint. Then back to the line and I fired 5 rounds to see where they were hitting. With the 40x scope I could see I had a good group of 5 hits within a 6 inch circle right in the center of the target. I then tried to hit all four corners of the target by aiming my 24x scope as to hit 3 inches down and 3 inches in from the corners. Again I had my 4 groups of about 6 inches.

The wind was about 5 mph and temps in the low 80's and the stars were in alighnment for me that day. Moving out to the 440 yd target I was getting bigger groups naturally but there was a clang after every round.

Trying some Data 2200 powder I had bought years ago I got terrible results. I was lucky to hit the 300 yd target once in five and the 440 yd target one in 10. Some of those rounds were as much as 6 feet off to the right or left with the same boolit. So this gun and boolit did not like that loading at all.

Shooting that Data 2200 powder in a .223 I had excellent results but not in the Sweede.

Again 10 grains of Unique with a gas checked 140 gr lead cast boolit worked for me.
That's really great. I'm glad you got that mold I sold you shooting good. I feel good it went to a good home.

I bought some of that brass from the same place.

Sounds like you are enjoying yourself. Keep up the good work and good shooting.

OldJoe was out again finding yet more loads for you fellows. Here's what I shot today. I shot the BaBore's Kurt and BaBore's 268459 both over two powders...one is new. The old one is 860 surplus. The new powder for me is the new 867 surplus. The Kurtz went into any inch group with both powders, same location on target too. The 860 with the 268 went into 3/4 inch and the 867 into 1 inch. I shot both 268's in heavy rain. Little description on the loads. The big difference this time, besides the new 867, was CCI Large Rifle Magnum primers. It made a difference. More on the 867. I loaded the 860 to 44 grains and with the shot buffer and mag primer. Well without changing the powder measure (Belding & Mull) I used the same setting to drop the 867 charges. Well the volumes were the same, but the 867 weighed a grain less. Now the 867 had more of a crack upon firing and it's velocity was higher. So, so far, I'm determining that the 867 is faster then the 860. Boy I'm glad I bought 8 pounds of it. The 867 burned CLEAN...no left over granules or carbon. The velocity of the 140 some grain BaBore 268 was in the mid 2400's. I didn't chronograph the Kurtz. I will do that later.

So I feel I have a few more decent loads that are great because of the cheap surplus powders.

You fellows wanting to do this now have at least a half dozen or more loads that worked for me to start testing your rifles on. You don't have to shoot bug groups...around an inch is good.

Manley asked in another 6.5 thread what was going on. Well I can't answer that, but testing has been going on all along with me. I recently got a new powder. I've been testing the 6.5 Swede, but I've switched over to the 6.5x54MS. I'm on the verge of a load for the Swede, but I hit it with the MS today. I was using BABore's re-cut of the Kurtz, and although I shouldn't give him praise on this bullet because he's been yanking my chain about my cast bullets (just kidding Bruce just kidding ) but I got some good groups with it. Say to the tune of a 1/2 inch group at high velocity for the twist. My 6.5x54MS has nearly identical twist of the Swede. It's dead on 1-8 and we know the Swede is 1-7.8. Velocity was in the mid 2300's. This rifle shoots without fouling the bore or leading what so ever. It's a stainless Lothar Walther on a Savage 110 with a synthetic stock wearing a 3x9 Tasco World Class. This one will also shoot with either factory Norma brass or reformed 06 Military. I was using both today to confirm that. Also today the rifle was water cooled. Yup...it's blistering hot with high humidity here in TN for quite some time now and let me tell you five shots heat that barrel up very hot. So I cool it gradually with cool water.

So I'm a happy camper because I have lots of the powder and it's cheap and it works great. I'll turn back to the Swede now.

Great post. Good info in the 867. If I may ask, where did you get it from? You indicated there was a sharper "crack" upon firing. Did you notice a difference in recoil? I had the same thing happen while using different powder for a 8x57. Using surplus AA2200 I noticed the recoil was more of a sharp fast push vs. the slow hard push of the previous load (forget what powder at the moment). Anyway, love to see good things happening. Keep it coming.

Robert

Quote:
Originally Posted by no_1 View Post
Great post. Good info in the 867. If I may ask, where did you get it from? You indicated there was a sharper "crack" upon firing. Did you notice a difference in recoil? I had the same thing happen while using different powder for a 8x57. Using surplus AA2200 I noticed the recoil was more of a sharp fast push vs. the slow hard push of the previous load (forget what powder at the moment). Anyway, love to see good things happening. Keep it coming.

Robert
My load before for my 6.5x54MS was with 4895. Now that I have a good shooting load for it with the surplus I switched over the scope setting for the new load. Lots of powder and cheaper then 4895 and more so it's not as much pressure and takes less buffer. It's only 5 more grains of powder.

I'm thinking about switching the target Tasco off the Swede over the Mannlicher now, the Mannlicher shoots much better or should I say it's easier to get accurate loads out of it.

I wish I had that Mannlicher when Dan from Mountain Molds was on the forum and had that contest for a free mold. I do believe I would have won it. Another thing about the Mannlicher is it's lighter and shorter then the Swede.
StarMetal is offline

I want to point out to those of you that may be trying the loading technique that as you increase the powder charge, thus the velocity, that as you approach that unforeseen sweet spot the group may grow in size. This may be interpreted by some as the accuracy getting worse because of the higher rpm. This isn't so in all instances. In many instances it is point where the load isn't balance and often disappears as the load is brought up in small increments such as 1/2 grain at a time. That's exactly what happen with my first successful 4350 load and it's exactly what happen on the most recent 6.5 Mannlicher load. So don't give up when you see that happen until you have proven it out.


Another thing has come to my attention through emails and pm's. If you start changing the alloys, changing lubes and amount of lubes from the instructions detailed in this thread...in other words throwing in a multitude of variables....you are prone for failure...that I can guarantee you. The powders were described (and I've added more to the list) the brass was describes, the bullets were described, and the acceptable lubes have been described, along with the one and only buffer. This is like learning to ride a bicycle. You fall down, you wreck, you get scrapes, cuts, and bruises...but once you learn how to ride that bicycle you never forget. Same as with the technique. Once you get it you got a grasp on mastering it. There are things about it that are difficult to put into words. One is there is a certain sound to the shot that tells you that you're close or that you got it. Certain feel to the vibration in the rifle at the shot when you got it.

Before I did this I was probably one of the largest consumers of Dacron on the forum. Now my Dacron sets in a corner of the shop gathering dust.

Follow the technique. If you're puzzled by any thing ask questions.


As said in the first paragraph if you do those things you should stop wasting your time and components. Remember we have done thi

Talking to yourself again?????

This time you are mumbling

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Talking to yourself again?????

This time you are mumbling

You forgot to put on your reading glasses, turn on your hearing aid, increase the brightness on your laptop and engage your pea sized brain. Do all those and you'll be able to do more than you've shown lately.

come on larry.
i see what joe is doing from waaay over here.
he just outlined his loading techniques that him and bob have been telling everyone they had posted several times if you searched them out.
take some notes, i will be writing stuff down.

Lamar

Already took the notes and conducted extensive testing with the same results as joe got. I just don't claim world record class accuracy with every cast bullet load I shoot. Joe is simply trying to do here what got him banned from 2 other forums.....besides, the 3 amigo's like me so much they keep asking me to play.......then they ask me to leave.....then they get lonely again so joe has to import threads and talk to himself for 24 posts......

Don't believe that? Then why did joe import my posts at all if he was "just outlin(ing) his loading techniques that him and bob have been telling everyone they had posted several times if you searched them out"? How were my posts germane to their loading techniques? Point is; they aren't.

Joe downloaded all this crap because this is the only place that any longer tolerates his crap.

Larry Gibson

your post wasn't germaine to the thread and was not constructive in any way.

that's why i asked.
it really was a waste of your time.
you all have free run [looks to me] of the ar fast twist thread.
make the most of it.
if you disagree with what joe wrote here,then pick a point and discuss it.
he imported your posts along with everybody elses felix's, jt's,dutch's and others.

it appeared to me he was not singling you out in any way.

and yes i might have misspelled a word somewhere in this post [but hey, i'm over it allready]

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Lamar

Already took the notes and conducted extensive testing with the same results as joe got. I just don't claim world record class accuracy with every cast bullet load I shoot. Joe is simply trying to do here what got him banned from 2 other forums.....besides, the 3 amigo's like me so much they keep asking me to play.......then they ask me to leave.....then they get lonely again so joe has to import threads and talk to himself for 24 posts......

Don't believe that? Then why did joe import my posts at all if he was "just outlin(ing) his loading techniques that him and bob have been telling everyone they had posted several times if you searched them out"? How were my posts germane to their loading techniques? Point is; they aren't.

Joe downloaded all this crap because this is the only place that any longer tolerates his crap.

Larry Gibson

First of all you didn't get the same accuracy as me. You failed the test. You couldn't do it and that is how you finalized your test....that it couldn't be done.

Second I didn't bring your posts over here. Your's, Pat I's, and swheeler's were not transferred because they were wasted posts that were nothing more then tentacles searching for ways to disrupt the thread. Your posts weren't posts, they were just short of being book length. A means by which only to become center of attention. They were also a bunch of words that most definitely could have been summarized into much fewer words.

I transferred over the good and technical parts of that thread. Notice took Robert Banks and Bret's posts were omitted.

You think you're going to ruin it here? Well I have a plan up my sleeve so have at it.

You don't know what you think about cast bullets, you can't do the HV, and your dog doesn't like you. You're washed up, old, senile, and more and more people are finding out your narcissist behavior.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
I thought you would have understood the vernacular of firearms terminology.
And I would've thought you would accept my concerns in the spirit they were offered.

Quote:
I have also measured the headspace of numerous M96s and find them to vary greatly as was the practice with Mausers of that period. Apparently the headspace of the M38 was held to much tigher specifications when they rebarreled the M96 actions into that M38 style of rifle.
In 1948 the Swedish military changed headspace protocol. This is why there "seems" to be so much varying. Not really. When you're not aware of these two different standards you could assume much in error. The military gauges and translated instructions on my website are the 1948 version.

Many/most of the m/96 converted did not receive new barrels. So the headspacing wouldn't have been any different. Some rifles did get new barrels, and many of those new barrels were Husqvarna m/38 barrels with m/38 rear sights already installed. But those are way in the minority of conversions.

Quote:
As I noted the test is just beginning. Perhaps it would be best if we all waited for the tests to be completed and I've made a conclusion be fore we criticis or make such judgements as "maybe something, maybe nothing". Otherwise you've just got the cart before the horse.
Like I said, too bad you couldn't accept what was offered in the spirit it was offered. I'll not make that mistake again.

Dutch

Well joe, the editing job wasn't thorough enough, you did bring some of mine and this one is still here. My "finalized" report of my thread simply stated what was done, it never said "it couldn't be done". That is your own assumption.

Lamar

Please give us a break here. Read the original "milk jug" thread and read joe's other thread here; how many times did I try to discuss what should be the real topic? More than you will count correctly. The theme throught is joe arguing with me and everyone else wh wanted to "discuss" anything. Those he didn't argue with was because they agreed with him but he always had to make the last and "better" point. His other thread here was simply to argue with me. That is self evident to any intelligent person who reads the thread and if it appears to you he wasn't then there's nothing left to say........

Larry Gibson

I had forgot to post a picture of the Swede rifle we've been talking about so here it is.

Here are two of the bullets I've shot from the Swede. The first is the 6.5 Kurtz and this one is a copy made by BaBore. The second one is BaBore's copy of the Lyman 268469. The Lyman bullet I really didn't do a lot of testing with.