Where is a good source for a Gas Check "Hard" 150 to 170 gr. in 30-30

Also any loads would be great... Thanks in advance.. Marc
PS.. I feed 3 30-30's for myself and my 2 boys..

Hi Maddog Can I ask why a Hard GC as most use standard or anneal them to make them softer? Clint

I don't know a lot about this. But I do want to push them about 1800 FPS. Looking for the economy more than anything. But I'm not happy with leading, and not liking 1200 to 1500 FPS?? Got some Lazer cast a while back, Not happy with them. Would a lazer cast lead at 1500 fps??.. Thanks for any help. Marc

Do you want a gas check that is 'hard'? I took your post to mean you wanted a hard bullet that required a gas check---right? If I am right, you will be much better off to worry about the 'fit' of the cast bullet to the firearm used! The 'hard is always best' mantra is a fairy tale. If you are getting leading, it is much more likely to be caused by a bullet that is undersized for that firearm and if so, 'hard' bullets will usually lead more than a softer one would! One of the biggest drawbacks to using comercially cast bullets is that commercial casters make a 'one size fits all' bullet and they make them hard because 'harder is better' has been 'sold' to the people as gospel. It is not!! Have a great day!

Rd Thanks for the lesson. God knows i need it.... I am just looking for a cast bullet I can move at about 1800 FPS... With out leading the barrel to any great degree. I'm not interested in casting myself. Just looking for somebody to point me in a direction of what to buy, and I don't know if I need a GC or not.
What do you think I can do to reach my goal.. I've reloaded for over 30 years but basically have NO experiance in this area.. Don't want to spend to much time on the deal... Just want somebody to say Buy these, load this, mission done,,,, have fun...LOL

Hi Maddog I cast a 170gr fn for my 30-30 will send you a hand full to try! How many do you think you want? One point to remember is when loading cast you have to bell the case to ease it in. To do this get a Lyman m die. I have been known to trade cast lead for things I want,need or think I need.Clint

well I think I'd try them.. If they work I'll get them by the 1000... yeally are you up for that? Probally not but let me know...
But I'd love to try some.. How Much for like 20?Ans can I push these at 1800 fps?

the 30-30 is one of the easiest rifles to push cast lead to full jaxketed [and beyond] velocities.
you have already seen that super hard [lazercast] don't work.
the trick is to find a boolit that has a nose that lightly engraves into the rifling.
and a body that is just big enough to seal the bore properly.
usually a nose thats .301 and a body thats 310 is sufficient to do this in a bbl with regular rifling.
marlins need slightly larger boolit dimensions, and usually a different shape to perform correctly in thier throat/bbl dimensions.

Have push these to 2200. Will get some to you. 1000 easy but not all at one time! Clint

Well--- if you don't want to cast your own, here are my suggestions. If the bullet does not 'fit' the firearm you are going to get leading. The first thing I would do is to slug the bore. This involves forcing a pure (or at least soft) lead 'slug' through the bore. I suggest you log on to (just Google) the Cast Boolits forum and run a search on slugging and/or leading. Once you know the dimensions of your barrel's interior, contact some of the commercial cast bullet suppliers and ask if they will provide you with bullets cast at least one thousandth (two would be better) over the 'sluged' size of your bore. That's a start! I predict that once you get a taste of working with cast you will become addicted and wind up casting for yourself! From one enabler---welcome to the addiction. Have a great day!

quote:

Originally posted by R D McMillan:
Well--- if you don't want to cast your own, here are my suggestions. If the bullet does not 'fit' the firearm you are going to get leading. The first thing I would do is to slug the bore. This involves forcing a pure (or at least soft) lead 'slug' through the bore. I suggest you log on to (just Google) the Cast Boolits forum and run a search on slugging and/or leading. Once you know the dimensions of your barrel's interior, contact some of the commercial cast bullet suppliers and ask if they will provide you with bullets cast at least one thousandth (two would be better) over the 'sluged' size of your bore. That's a start! I predict that once you get a taste of working with cast you will become addicted and wind up casting for yourself! From one enabler---welcome to the addiction. Have a great day!

Best advise

Fit is imperative so knowing the exact bore (and groove) dimensions is first step.

any one have a starting point (load) for 150 gr.cast? say a velocity of 1600 fps to start?

using which powders?
red dot 7-8 grs,unique 8-10, 14-16grs 2400.
and anything in thier burn rate will get you 1600 fps.

I have all those powders... Pick one.. And thanks for the help.. Marc

Ed Harris and some others at the Cast Bullet Assn. did testing a long time ago. For their purposes, shooting 190gr+ 30 caliber cast bullets at 1900fps+, they developed a formula.

Take Brinnell Hardness times 1441 to find the basic yield strength of a lead alloy. That is supposed to show where a cast bullet will obdurate enough to seal the bore.

Check www.castbulletassoc.org for more competition proved information.

Rich

Oregon trail Bullets, AKA Laser-Cast, has some very nice hard cast 170 gr GC'd 30-30 bullets.

Larry Gibson

Commercial bullets get shipped and their lube must stay in place so they use a hard lube. Besides fit, lube is another issue with leading. Make your own, lube em yourself. If you aren't going to shoot enough of them to cast your own, why mess with it at all? I've shot gas check designed bullets without gas checks and I question more and more are gas checks really helping anything.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Commercial bullets get shipped and their lube must stay in place so they use a hard lube. Besides fit, lube is another issue with leading. Make your own, lube em yourself. If you aren't going to shoot enough of them to cast your own, why mess with it at all? I've shot gas check designed bullets without gas checks and I question more and more are gas checks really helping anything.

Ray,

On low pressure low velocity loads gas checks aren't needed, but I can gaurantee you they are for higher pressure higher velocity loads. One of the things they do is keep the base of the bullet from deforming from the gas pressure and heat. That includes both from the beginning and right at exit from the muzzle.

I've just concluded some bullet testing firing them into a water tank. Some were very very very low pressure and velocity and the others were higher pressure and velocity. I was amazed at the gas check damage at both pressures.

I finish with there is a gas check strength threshold. Ray, does that one word sound familiar?

"threshold".....hmmmmm....yes that is familiar.......

I concur on the GC threshold also.......definately a point where it is needed and not needed.

Larry Gibson

Hey Gibby,

I was fishing for a carp...etman,but instead I hooked a large mouth bass. Sorry, going to have to throw you back.

Some of the shooting I did without gas check was in .22 cal at velocity of 2000 -2200 fps. That is faster than what is normally stated as needing a gas check. I was not losing accuracy--still killing jackrabbits and was not getting leading. Tell me why I needed gas check? What was I losing? What would I gain from having one?

Instead you tell us why they have gas check bullet styles and gas checks.

That was a good way of dodging an answer. Twas not I that said they were needed. I said I have doubts. You said needed so the why would be in your court---not mine. May be they have them because people will buy them. I'm sure a lot of stuff gets sold for that reason--when in actuality it provides no real benefit. Heard of snake oil? Base of a cast bullet deformed by heat. That would mean melting. At 2000 fps if my math is correct, in a 24 inch barrel that bullet would be in the barrel 1/1000th of a second and you have enough heat to melt it in that short of time? If the base is hot enough to melt, the whole bullet would be hot--enough so that the lube would be liquid. Even below the "rpm threshold" the lube would be slung off more so than water off a dog as in bone dry--all gone. Recover a cast bullet that has been shot and lube is still intact--with or without a gas check.

Not dodging Ray. I think with a 22 caliber cast bullet having a thinner check and a shank that not much smaller then the full bearing band diameter changes things as I feel it obturates out from the gas pressure and becomes much like a flat base. Also it's lots like a heels 22 rimfire bullet. Couple this with what alloy you used and along with what powder you used, I feel you just hit things right in that one instance.

Now have you done that with other larger calibers at those velocities? If what you surmise is true why aren't more cast bullet shooters reporting that?

I'm sure there are things the reloading companies put out to just increase sales, but I'm positive gas checks aren't one of them.

Carpetman, I will offer this: I have a recovered 50-caliber flat based conical I shot out of one of my muzzleloaders. It is distinctly concave, and there are no less than 20 very small craters in the base of the bullet, along with significant deformity in the edge of the bullet. And I am talking about black powder substitute, with significantly less heat than smokeless, and a lot less pressure. I launched this bullet at less than 1500.

You tell me...

Smokin Joe--I have done the same--left off gas check in my .243 and in my .357 mag. Much less velocity in .357 mag of course---but still above velocities a lot of folks claim a gas check is needed. Doubless--sounds like could have been a void that pressure forced it???? I am too hard headed to believe you got melting that quickly. We are talking about exposed to heat a couple thousandths of a second.

I don't feel a need for my handgun bullets in the type of loads and shooting I do.

Well Ray, you need to go over to Castboolits and tell those boys how to shoot ALL their loads and calibers without gas checked cast bullets. Then the check too makers on that forum aren't going to be happy with you.

About BP and smokeless. Why is it, if smokeless powder burns so much hotter, that combustible materials used as wadding in BP catch fire, but not so much with smokeless?

quote:

I am too hard headed to believe you got melting that quickly. We are talking about exposed to heat a couple thousandths of a second.

Well, that is a problem I cannot correct. But take a look at black and burn temperatures. How long at 4k do you think it should take?

Why is it, if smokeless powder burns so much hotter, that combustible materials used as wadding in BP catch fire, but not so much with smokeless?

Well, typically because we don't use wadding with smokeless!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

I am too hard headed to believe you got melting that quickly. We are talking about exposed to heat a couple thousandths of a second.

Well, that is a problem I cannot correct. But take a look at black and burn temperatures. How long at 4k do you think it should take?

Why is it, if smokeless powder burns so much hotter, that combustible materials used as wadding in BP catch fire, but not so much with smokeless?

Well, typically because we don't use wadding with smokeless!

Yeah, well that's not the reason because I've shot a lot of combustible materials out of smokeless loaded firearms. Let me give you an example: Kapok..before Dacron because famous Kapok was one of the fillers used. I've never ever seen it burn, or smoke, or on fire. It comes out of the muzzle like blowing on a dandelion seed blossom. Some claim they have found charred or melted Dacron. I've never eve found anything from Dacron in front of my shooting bench. Nope there's another reason BP burns combustibles. Think about this too. Smokeless is so hot, yet it doesn't melt shot gun plastic wads, not even the thin edge at the cupped base.

Take a cast bullet and put it in a vice. Quickly pass a cutting torch over the base. I said quickly. A person doing this is very very slow in comparison as to how long bullet is actually exposed to heat. You get no melting. The bullet in the vice is only partially surrounded by a heat sink (the vice). In the barrel the bullet is fully encased by a heat sink(the barrel). If we are melting them in the barrel we are defying a lot of things.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Take a cast bullet and put it in a vice. Quickly pass a cutting torch over the base. I said quickly. A person doing this is very very slow in comparison as to how long bullet is actually exposed to heat. You get no melting. The bullet in the vice is only partially surrounded by a heat sink (the vice). In the barrel the bullet is fully encased by a heat sink(the barrel). If we are melting them in the barrel we are defying a lot of things.

I agree with what you are saying 100 percent Ray. I'm not of the group that believe bullets melt in the bore. I've never said that they did. That's why I brought up the combustible fillers and such used in smokeless powder loads not burning.

You agree 100% which brings us full circle. Why do we need gas checks?

Because at a certain point bullet bases get destroyed by the gas and gas pressure. Paper patch bullets came along because it was found that the lead bullet needed some form of protection as velocities started increasing. The NRA had a 300 Win Mag shooting the same velocities as jacketed ammo, with accuracy, using paper patch bullets. Do you honestly think that you could duplicate their tests with plain base bullets?

Like I said there is a point where the cast bullet needs additional protection. From what you are telling me, you have been able to pass that point. You haven't told us what accuracy you speak of too. Minute of angle, more the minute of angle, much less then minute of angle and at what distance?

Once again there is a point at which the bullet base cannot take the forces that the gases subject it too and a gas check is needed. I'll add too that heat isn't the only thing a gas check protects a bullet's base from, which is seems you are basing this whole conversation on.

Joe, I told you the accuracy was minute of jackrabbit. I had ran out of gas checks for my .22. I had bought some from Scrounger that had not arrived. So I loaded ammo and hunted a few nights with ammo that didn't have gas checks. I expected to get leading. That didn't happen. I noticed no drop off in jackrabbits being hit. I saw no loss of any kind, nor gain when the gas checks arrived. Thus my comment that I question more and more the use of gas checks. I've been told nothing that changes my mind.

Well Ray all I can say is you must have been shooting some super hard bullets. If I ever get down that way pig hunting I'll bring my 6.5 Swede and both gas checked and non gas checked bullets and we'll shoot them at high velocity and then you tell me what you think. What do you think would happen if you went over to Castboolits and posted what we've just discussed? I'll tell you, they'll call you a liar and the famous "I'd have to see it to believe it" statement would come up numerous times. I haven't said that to you. I also think that what you have done is true that if you went back to Castboolets that you would be a huge success because many many people surely don't want to pay for gas checks or make them. I know the alloy I use, 50/50 which is great for hunting and not armor piercing hard cast, need gas checks at the velocity I'm shooting them at. Now I'll admit that I've never tried non gas checked bullets out of my rifle, nor do I own any flat base rifle molds, and nor do I want to. The only plinking low velocity loads I've ever assembled and shot are out of my hand guns, never my rifles. I have no need for them out of my rifles. I've always shot the highest velocity that I could achieve with accuracy out of my rifles. Don't take that as I am condemning doing so. I was never out, even from the beginning, to shoot cast bullets economically.

I've heard of many who shoot pure lead out of their rifles and many who shoot cast out of their rifles with no lube and great success. That is also something I haven't (I have shot lubed pure lead) done nor will I. I have shot zinc bullets.

You're basing your event on a very limited experimental testing. You haven't tested all levels of cast bullet shooting from the very low velocities to the extremely high velocities with all the possible alloys you could blend, all the different calibers, and with all the different powders. Add to that under all time of temperature and weather conditions and with documentation of group sizes, velocities, and bore cleanness. Throw in performance on animals. That would be a monumental task.

So in ending I'm finished with this discussion. You're more then free to not use gas checks if that works for you and I'm happy that you can achieve that as it's a money saver for sure.

Joe, cheap bullets for my pistol is what interested me in cast bullets. Jacketed bullets were a great leap forward in my books and that's what I use in rifles for hunting. Pistols which I seldom shoot at all anymore were pretty much strictly for plinking. Not to say you can't hunt with pistol or with cast bullets--saying I don't. For jackrabbit shooting, cast bullets were the best ticket in my opinion. Cheap and less blast and very effective. When I started casting, gas checks were not 24K so their cost was not much of a factor. I just went along with the logic that they would increase accuracy and decrease leading and thus I mostly bought gas check molds. As I stated, I now highly question their benefit. I still have some gas checks on hand and I'm sure I'll use em up but doubtful I will replenish my stock.
Don't spend any time concerned about the happenings at Cast Boolits.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
....... What do you think would happen if you went over to Castboolits and posted what we've just discussed? I'll tell you, they'll call you a liar and the famous "I'd have to see it to believe it" statement would come up numerous times. I haven't said that to you. I also think that what you have done is true that if you went back to Castboolets that you would be a huge success because many many people surely don't want to pay for gas checks or make them. I know the alloy I use, 50/50 which is great for hunting and not armor piercing hard cast, need gas checks at the velocity I'm shooting them at. ......... I've always shot the highest velocity that I could achieve with accuracy out of my rifles. Don't take that as I am condemning doing so. I was never out, even from the beginning, to shoot cast bullets economically.......So in ending I'm finished with this discussion. You're more then free to not use gas checks if that works for you and I'm happy that you can achieve that as it's a money saver for sure.

Well Joe, it's understandable that you continue to bad mouth Cast Boolit Forum as you got booted off.

Let's see now, 2000-2200 fps with cast bullets sans the GC and minute of jack rabbit accuracy and you criticise carpetman1????? At least his claims are quite beliveable. I don't know about Tennessee but in Texas and out where I live "minute of jack rabbit" is a pretty large group!!!! Carpetman1 is not claiming the velocity nor the accuracy at 300 yards or whatever that you claim(ed). He is believeable, you on the other hand..........

Larry Gibson

Hey Gibby,

Still bothers your that me and 45 2.1 (and others) can out shoot you with cast. You have to be mighty dumb not be able to get your Swede shooting with people coaching you, but you had the naysayers getting in your way to distract, which they did. I'll give you that little bit of credit.

I figured you'd be along because trouble makers like you can't resist to stir the pot.

By the way carpetman didn't get booted from that piece of shit forum and you don't see him participating in it anymore and has nary a good word to say about it.

joe:
you know ray left for his own reasons, and it wasn't because of the quality of the contributors to the forum.
hell even junior and floodgate come around.
it's a choice to be civil you and i both know that.
i have been warned there also [and elsewhere]

i'll tell y'all why ray's BOOLITS worked, and we all already know this,
it's because they fit, and he was controlling the launch,and his 223 has a decent rifling twist rate with a good bore.
it's not magic,it's experience, observation and experimenting.
sometimes things just go right.
jebus....

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
joe:
you know ray left for his own reasons, and it wasn't because of the quality of the contributors to the forum.
hell even junior and floodgate come around.
it's a choice to be civil you and i both know that.
i have been warned there also [and elsewhere]

i'll tell y'all why ray's BOOLITS worked, and we all already know this,
it's because they fit, and he was controlling the launch,and his 223 has a decent rifling twist rate with a good bore.
it's not magic,it's experience, observation and experimenting.
sometimes things just go right.
jebus....

Lamar, I know all that and also know what some of those fellows that left won't tell you. Sure there are some really great people on that forum, but you also have a bunch of asshole which Gibson is a huge one. I guess you buy into all his thread hold and rpm bullshit? I don't have any problems with you so why do you choose to stick up for Gibby?

I know very well why Ray got his bullets to shoot. He is making it sound that there are not circumstances that you need gas checks and that the manufactures only invented them to make money. What do you have to say about that?

Oh yeah, you forgot Ricochet, Jumptrap, and Oldfeller. Bet you haven't even notices Ricochet gone.