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My buddy and I are going hog hunting in November. I will be taking my 338 Federal with 200gr Accubonds. My buddy wants to hunt them with his new FN SCAR in 223. What bullet would you recommend? I have 60 gr partitions and 62 gr TSX on hand that I can hand load for him. Is there a better option I'm missing? | ||
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Either one will do the trick--just stick it between the earhole and the eyeball and down the go for a dirt nap. An old pilot, not a bold pilot, aka "the pig murdering fool" | |||
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I would use the .223 only for CNS shots. And for that bullet choice really doesn't matter. What you've got will do nicely. Might even get a double if you line a couple up. With a .223 placement anywhere else and effectiveness will be close to nil on a decent size pig. Pigs can run hundreds of yards from well placed .30 cal bullets. LWD | |||
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Horse manure. Both that a good .223 bullet won't kill a pig graveyard dead in short order with a good chest shot and that a pig can run hundreds of yards with a "well placed" .30 cal. Someone give me a break! To answer the original question, either bullet will stomp them in the dirt. Like anyone who knows pigs, I'd rather shoot then in the brain or head neck juncture but don't think for a second that a good chest shot with a .223 won't kill them real quick. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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+1 on either bullet. They both will do an excellent job. I prefer the "behind the ear" shot myself. I use the Sierra 55 gr. & 65. gr. SBT's in my AR-15. Both kill hogs DRT. Bob There is room for all of God's creatures....right next to the mashed potatoes. http://texaspredatorposse.ipbhost.com/   | |||
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I would certainly not advise anyhting but a head/neck/CNS shot with a 233. Will a pig run "hundreds" of yards with a well placed 30 cal bullet probably not. I have seen more than 1 pig run 75 yards or so with a 30 caliber lung shot. Taking a heart/lung shot at a pig with a 223 is asking for trouble and lots of wounded/lost pigs. There is a big difference between taking a heart/lung shot and hitting and destroying enough vital tisse to down the pig in short order. Also, remember pigs are notorious for leaving lousy blood trails. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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We've been through this before. There is a giant pile of pigs that have been shot by a rancher in S Texas with his .223AI and he wasn't just taking head shots. In my experience, which includes at least a couple of hundred pigs I've shot and more than that again that were shot by others on my ranch, when well shot, a pig dies easier and faster than a deer, when poorly shot, they won't go as far and die MUCH faster than a deer if the wound is capable of being fatal. I personally have shot at least a dozen pigs running amidships with my .300 WM and they were all withing 30 yards of point of impact. While I have only shot a couple of pigs with a .223, we've killed numerous deer graveyard dead with one shot from a .223 using 64 gr Powerpoints, all chest shots, most of them by kids being their first or second deer. Fartherest one went was about 30 yards. A pig that runs 75 yards when "lung shot" was almost certainly hit either very high or high and far back, just nicking the lung area, not what I'd call a well placed shot. I'm going to say this one more time, as has been proven thousands of times, a well placed thoracic cavity .223 shot will kill any pig that walks and shortly. All that said, I wouldn't choose a .223 as my first choice, but it will do the job easily. But if anyone wants to pay the bill, I can stack them up with chest shots from a .223 anytime. Here is one thread....Butch's pig killing friend xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Always good to know that there are constants in the universe. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The .223 is a varmint round....not something designed to bring down game. On a lung shot, I would rather choose a bigger calibre, know the animal will die quicker, and know I made an ethical decision. Choosing the .223 and saying that only head shots will be taken is like saying "I am going to use a 30-06 for my cape buffalo but only shoot them in the head". Bad idea unless you want to risk losing the animal. Of course, I shot my last pronghorn with a .416 so what do I know.  | |||
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Tendrams: First of all, I'm not a proponent of using a .223, the only reason I've had that much experience is because the kids were quite young, 10 or under and we could easily teach them how to shoot AND kill a deer with a .223 because of the low recoil. The few pigs I've shot with a .223 were because that's what I had with me at the time. However to have all these people who have never shot a deer sized animal with one sit there and tell all of us who have that it won't work is just frigging stupid. So what are you trying to tell me? That all those deer that I cleaned on my ranch that were shot in the chest with a .223 are not dead? It's a miracle. BTW, in Texas at least, a pig is a varmint. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Just because a round can do something, never means that it is the best or even a reasonable choice to do so. Further, lions were at one point considered vermin in Africa, and I wouldn't hunt them with a .223 either.  | |||
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Funny, I always thought the .223 was a "people" round, designed for the world's most dangerous game. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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...and it's a bad compromise for that too...if you actually want to kill people cleanly. Wasn't the 5.56 adopted to simply save ammo weight? One might also argue that it was a wise move from a tactical perspective because wounding an enemy takes more people out of the fight than an outright kill. | |||
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So, tendrams, have you ever shot a pig or larger animal with a .223? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Tendrams, Have you ever tried to haul a 1 1/2 tons of payload in 1/2 ton pick-up? I know people who actually done it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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So Mike, how many pigs or deer have you shot with a .223? Might as well get the whole range of experiences out so we'll know who has any real knowledge of the topic. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Always good to know that there are constants in the universe. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I take that to be "none", which figures. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Gato, I doubt you have any idea of the meaning and point of my last 4 posts...which also "figures". Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Typical internet ballistics "expert" telling those who have done it successfully it shouldn't or even can't be done. Risible. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Gato, If your experience tells you pigs die easier than deer... I've got to question if you're hunting the same animals as us. One of too many examples to list: Just last season I saw a boar take a 300 gr. bullet through BOTH lungs out of a .375 H&H. It ran a solid 150 yards before dying. While trailing it we found exactly ONE drop of blood before we found the dead pig. Its rare even with pigs, but I doubt you're ever going to see anything like that with a deer. My experience is that pigs EVAPORATE into the thickest cover available when wounded (sometimes suffering for days before expiring if not followed up properly) whereas deer more often hang around to be shot again. I've personally taken pigs with guns from .222 varmint bullets and .32 handguns up to .460 Wby. Never more than 8 per hunt period for the last 30 years of hunting... so my experience may not be valid for you either. But my clients have taken another 1,500 +/- in my presence so hopefully I've learned a little bit from them. With all the terrific choices of cartridges out there - to hunt adult pigs at various angles with a .224" bullet is irresponsible in my opinion. Sure pigs can be killed with varmint guns, but if someone can't handle the expense or the recoil of a caliber capable of making a more responsible kill in every case... they don't belong in the field. If a hunter makes the commitment to themselves that they'll only take slam dunk shots in near ideal conditions then maybe they can pull off a decent track record. But the average sport hunter doesn't have the convenience of passing shots until they get the perfect opportunity and few will be able to hold off for the ideal shot. My question is: If someone insists on using marginal combinations for a given situation, how many animals do they have to lose wounded before they admit they're wrong and switch to something tried and true??? I guess for a thinking person it depends on a ratio of ethics vs. ego. | |||
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I've killed several hundred pigs and well over a hundred deer personally, while having at least that many more killed on my ranch by others, and without doubt deer are tougher than pigs. I've gut shot many running pigs while shooting the third or forth one, mostly with a .300 WM, in a group and they all piled up shortly. OTOH, if someone gut shoots a deer and, unless they take out the liver, they're going to have a helluva time finding that deer if they do. Your pigs must be bullet proof. That's my opinion and I base it on my experiences. The most I've ever killed in one spot at one time was 8 and that is giving my son credit for one out of the 9 dead ones, with his .243, he was 10 at the time. He only shot twice. So I've killed a few pigs myself and seen many more shot. They fall over dead easily. Simple example, heart shoot most deer and they run at least 25 to 75 yards. Heart shoot most pigs and they fall within their tracks or at most a few feet. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Interesting debate. My humble eperience is that not two animals react the same when shot. Our pigs down here are more european than yours but I don´t know if that means something. What I think is that they can run the same with a heart shot than with a lung shot. I have shot a pig through the heart with a 180 gr Nosler Partition from a 30-06 that run 70 yards before going down. What I believe (I am a genius ) is that a bigger caliber will help a lot when the shot is bad.. Never mind if we hit the heart or lungs, most times a bullet will not stop a pig on it's tracks if major bones (shoulder bones, spine, etc) are not smashed. Some days ago I shot a sow in the guts  and the animal went aprox. 100 yards before going down, thanks God the brush was open and that I was using a big caliber (30-06) because if not I would have lost it forever.I think this resumes all. If someone doesn´t mind loosing a wounded animal or is shooting every pig out there despite its size, or is shooting them as varmint and not hunting, he or she can use any caliber but if the brush is really thick more sooner than later they will loose a wounded animal, not always we can do a perfect shot, and my friends, that is when I remember Mark Sullivan...."Always, always, use..(deep breath)...enough gun...(more deep breath).." L | |||
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I have taken a bundle of pigs as well. I haven't used a .223 on them, but I have seen it used on deer and was not in the least impressed. CNS shot, it doesn't matter what you use, but you can't count on that shot necessarily always presenting itself. Gato, I don't know if it's a "Texas thing," but in my experience, hogs can soak up a lot more lead than a whitetail. I've never had to take a follow-up shot on a deer, but sure have with hogs. As Kyler pointed out, when shot, they tend to head for the thickest cover and it is easy to lose them. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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A friend of mine prefers a .223 when teaching young kids to hunt. Low recoil, easy for them to shoot, and according to him, it compresses the young hunter's learning curve. He says they get a lot of experience trailing wounded game with the .223 that they don't get with the larger calibers, especially on hogs. | |||
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Very interesting posts. I would heavily lean towards using a bigger gun if you have one. Obviously I'm using a 200 grain Accubond from a 338 Federal. My buddy just likes tactical rifles and wants to hunt with one. I think I have him convinced to use a 6.8 instead of the 223. | |||
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No....and I haven't had unprotected sex with a women I picked up in a bar, picked a fight with a guy twice my size, driven my car 200mph on a residential street, shot heroin, or snuck up and smacked a bull moose on the ass either. None of the above (including using a .223 on pigs) ever struck me as a good idea in spite of my lack of actual experience in each particular realm. I like to learn from other people's mistakes, thank you very much. | |||
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Scott, Good move convincing him to use the 6.8 SPC. The following quotes pretty much sum up why you shouldn't use a 223: "But my clients have taken another 1,500 +/- in my presence so hopefully I've learned a little bit from them...with all the terrific choices of cartridges out there - to hunt adult pigs at various angles with a .224" bullet is irresponsible in my opinion....If someone insists on using marginal combinations for a given situation, how many animals do they have to lose wounded before they admit they're wrong" "If someone doesn´t mind loosing a wounded animal or is shooting every pig out there despite its size, or is shooting them as varmint and not hunting, he or she can use any caliber" "I have taken a bundle of pigs as well. I haven't used a .223 on them, but I have seen it used on deer and was not in the least impressed. CNS shot, it doesn't matter what you use...hogs can soak up a lot more lead than a whitetail. I've never had to take a follow-up shot on a deer, but sure have with hogs." "A friend of mine prefers a .223 when teaching young kids to hunt....it compresses the young hunter's learning curve....they get a lot of experience trailing wounded game with the .223...especially on hogs." The following quotes some up when a .223 works: "just stick it between the earhole and the eyeball and down the go for a dirt nap." "I would use the .223 only for CNS shots. And for that bullet choice really doesn't matter." "I prefer the 'behind the ear' shot myself." Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Tendrams, I once smacked a moose on the ass...no wait, that was a woman I was trying to pick up in a bar. She was twice my size and one helluva a fight broke out...I took off, musta drove outta the parking lot at 200 mph.  I am here to tell ya, I have done it a half dozen times (I am a slow learner). So it can be done and you don't let anybody tell ya it can't. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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If you'd claimed to do it several hunderd times per day we could call you GatoDettorre. | |||
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But were either of you shooting heroin OR in texas at the time? No? AMATEURS ! | |||
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Kinda entertaining to watch too . . . from a safe distance!
Tendrams, live a little. What we do at my lease is we shoot them in the ass with a .223 with a varmint bullet, strip down to our jockey shorts, strap on a headlamp, do a shot of Wild Turkey 101, unsheath a Buck 110, and go in after them. If you come back to camp without a pig or your clothes, well, it's not good. LWD | |||
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On a more serious note, I don't think anyone has said .223 won't work. It probably will if you get sufficient penetration into the thoracic cavity. (I've seen a couple of dramatic kills with a .22-250 and a 50 grain V-Max into the lungs of a whitetail.) But few .223 bullets have the construction to get to the lungs of a larger hog. That and the significantly smaller wound channel if the bullet gets there, IMHO, militate against the .223. LWD | |||
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I just decided to hunt with a .223 for a while, since I know the round will kill pigs, have seen it multiple times, and am not trying to sell pig hunts based on how "bad" pigs are or how tough they are, which they aren't. I hate posting pics but I'll be posting a few of dead pigs, chest shot for the uninformed among us. Rather than go out and reload the better bullets, I'll just use those deer loads of 64 grain powerpoints, hoping against hope that they don't bounce off those nigh indestructible animals. Any of you "I've never used one but it just will barely penetrate the hide and the pig will run off know it alls" care to come along and bet at least a grand or more (whatever you'd like, bring cash) on the first shot? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I have killed hundreds, maybe thousands, of hogs and deer with chest shots from 223. A 70gr TSX to the boiler room and you have a dead animal. I say 70gr TSX because the SCAR is a 1:7 and, from experiece, you will get better penetration from the 70 grainer. Tell your buddy to take his SCAR and kill with confidence. Perry | |||
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Will throw my .02 in here as well. I have shot several hogs with a 223 from an AR-15. Used 55gr soft and hollow points as well as some 75 Amax's from my target rifle. Have taken both chest and head shots. Head shots were DRT but chest shots did the trick as well. Doesn't matter what the caliber, chest shots arent always DRT. So, is the 223 my first choice when hog hunting? Nope. But if it is what I have would I not use it? Nope. Different strokes for different folks. Good luck on your hog hunt. | |||
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Gosh, after reading this thread I may have to stop shootin' those pesky varmints(hogs) with my Tac 20 and 40 gr. V-Maxes, and go dig my 458 Lott out of the pile. GWB | |||
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My email list has not been overwhelmed with urgent "Me first, I want to take your money" messages from all those armchair ballistic experts, most who've never shot any deer sized critter with a .223, offering to come along and be a witness while those .223s bounce off that hog's chest for a thousand or more per bounce. As a matter of fact I haven't had even one nibble. I wonder why? Come on boys, you're so certain it won't kill them, my money is green and available, I just have to not kill that hog with a chest shot from a .223. I'll even throw in a steak dinner, crow as side dish. One thing this thread has done is reinforce my conviction that I've got to sell a bunch of guns and stuff. Took me 2 hours of looking through piles of rifles yesterday to find that .223 Tikka (I've got quite a few 15s but like the Tikka trigger better) and then another hour to dig out those 64 gr Powerpoints. Hell, I've been looking for an 870 for a guy for over a month and haven't found it yet. My buddies have been overrun with hogs recently, but on my ranch the grass and weeds are so high due to our wet summer, especially in the last few weeks, that it is gonna be tough to find one without baiting. I haven't started shredding yet and I'm not putting out corn this early, deer won't eat much of it this time of year in our area and I'm not paying good money for corn to fatten wild hogs. However, for that grand a shot, I'll pour the corn to 'em.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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The naysayers should try sharing a camp w/ Gatogordo on a good 'ol fashioned Texas pig hunt. I guarantee the fella will talk your ear off telling a long story short & after a case of good wine or so, you'll be on your ass laughing silly. I dare you guys to take him on his bet, come on fellas, show your colors. GW will also make fools of naysayers, as I've had the pleasure to share camp w/ both of them & they know their stuff. IMO: .223 is good for vermin control, recoil sensitive hunters w/ shooting skills & teaching the new & young to hunt. Most of the guys I hunt hogs w/ use .30 cal & larger up to a .458 Lott. "A Lone Hunter is the Best Hunter..." | |||
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CamoManJ: You're welcome to come up and hunt anytime, unfortunately we're too far apart for us to meet up very often. But don't expect my fat ass to be holding your hand while you're doing it nor will I be telling you how bulletproof hogs are.  I've still got a few bottles of good vino tinto left and steaks are always available. I should have some good deer this year, but I dropped out of Texas MLD permit program (been level 3 for many years which is why I've killed and seen killed so many deer (not to mention the hogs) compared to normal limits) this season, so only have "regular" deer season available for deer.Also usually have exceptional timber mallard hunting later in year, but I heard after your last Saskatchewan trip that you'd given up duck hunting. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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