I've decided it might be an interesting project to improve the local wild hogs genetic mix. Supposedly, and backed up by observation (longer noses etc) we do have quite a bit of Russian in some of our local hogs.

I'm thinking of using a Russian Boar in a pen, breeding him to both Russian and local females and turning them (in the case of the Russian the pigs) out. This is not a hunting club and my ranch is not high fenced.

Anyone know of a source of real Russian type pigs in Texas? Has anyone done business with Two Rivers Outdoor Club in Illinois?

Sounds like an interesting project, have you checked with TP&W and their thoughts on the subject? Just an observation heren but from what I have seen over the past 10 years or so, TP&W has started making a concerted effort to eradicate feral hogs in the state. They might not look too highly on someone trying to put more back out there. Just My Opinion.

Gato, pick up a copy of Boar Hunter magazine, there are 3-4 places advertising Russian brood stock for sale. One is boar-and-buck-plantation in Mississippi. Also cedar ridge hunting in Fayette Missouri. Hope this helps.

Mad Dog

Mad dog:

Thanks for the tip, I'll follow up on it the next time I'm around a magazine stand.

Crazyhorse:

Since the Texas wild hog populations is increasing geometrically, whether my local hogs are bred to other local boars or Russian boars won't affect the overall population at all. I don't know of any active TPWL program to control hogs except for the 24/7 hunting regs. But they've got their work cut out for them if they attempt to eradicate hogs. Kind of like Bush and democracy in Iraq.

Gato, go to this website http://www.cedarridgehunting.com/

you can contact him dirctly about brood stock

Mad Dog

Not trying to start an arguement, but I do know that there are regulations in place regarding the movement and release of captive held hogs in Texas. I just figured it would be better to know for sure TP&W's stance in the matter, before hand instead of after the fact. JMO.

understand about trying to improve the breed for hunting... but with no high fence and releasing to the wild...any farming neibors sure would be pissed off... high fenced or hog fenced have at it!!!

quote:

Originally posted by keystone hog hunter:
understand about trying to improve the breed for hunting... but with no high fence and releasing to the wild...any farming neibors sure would be pissed off... high fenced or hog fenced have at it!!!

KeystoneHH:

Actually that is EXACTLY what happened in this area about 25 years ago. Several locals decided that it would be fun to have hogs to hunt on the Red River on a very large neighboring ranch. They trapped or had trapped a couple of cattle trailer loads of hogs off the Sulfur River bottoms (about 25 miles South) and the rest is history. Unconfirmed rumor is they imported some Russian stock at that time as well. We definitely have more than the average Russian in some of our hogs, but it is getting diluted. When I bought the initial part of what is now the 6T about 10 years ago, all or nearly all of the hogs were black, now we've got whites, grays, spots, etc. although the majority are still black. A neighbor a few miles away turned his herd of 20 or so black and white hogs (not sure what that breed is called) loose about 5 years back and that may explain part of it. BTW, they weren't tested by the Tx Health Comm.

Undoubtedly the hogs would have arrived here anyway but there is wide local agreement that there weren't any on the Red or in the bottoms, at least in this area, until that pivotal event. IMO, whether I "improve" the breed or not will not significantly affect the numbers (staggering) of hogs in the area.

I've always had a symbiotic relationship with my pigs, I enjoyed killing them and they enjoyed my ranch and corn feeders, but in the last year or so, its gotten out of hand. I figure there are at least 75 more or less resident hogs on my main hunting area part of the ranch (about 2000 acres I used just for hunting, no cattle) and there could easily be two or 3x that many. Even using the generous estimate that only half of them are sows, figure 2 litters or 4 to 6 a year per sow, first breeding at 6 to 8 months, and do the math. Good for hog hunter afficionados, bad for farmers and to some extent, ranchers (they're brutal on hay meadows and pastures). For the first time, I've started using traps (with only moderate success so far, specifically 4 med hogs) to control their numbers which is what got me to thinking about "improving" the breed. I've personally killed about 10 in the last month mostly incidental to deer hunting and we've trapped 4. Hasn't made a dent as far as I can tell. Since they are directly competitive with deer for mast I'm trying to reduce their numbers or move them on. I just killed 4 big sows (one at a time) out of one bunch in the last week, that after shooting 3 in one episode from the same bunch the week before in some of the finest quick shooting I've ever done. I'm not sure they've left but they have certainly moved their base of operations.

Only real way to control them is with dogs and lots of pressure, but I don't willingly (that's another story but the tag line is "If I catch you or those dogs on my place again, calling won't help, you'll have to drag them or you off.") let dogs on my place at least up to now. As an example, a neighbor caught 200 hogs last year on his ranch about the size of mine a couple miles to the east but directly on the river. He says he can't tell he made a dent, and is still catching them apace.

Hi,maybe we can help some and have some fun too! Do you allow hunting by mature and responsible hunters?Your approx. location? Thankyou

understand your problem our hog population grew in the 80,s going from hunting two, three days in the winter to kill enough for sausage to over 300 a year and im semi retired from hog hunting.... a machine like rattlersnakers father is a hunting hog harvesting machine.... traping is a hard road just remember if you dont try they will carry you off... have you tried shotguns and spotlights, night vision, and the new craze down here is helicopters and a AK... its like killing rats in a barn fun till the killings done...

Safarikid:

First of all, it's deer season, so I'm not letting people I don't know run around chasing hogs, they might disturb my highly sensitive deer.

Secondly, we hunt them pretty hard and it is really hard to kill many hogs around here these days. They are smart animals and have a distinct aversion to dying. Sometimes I can locate a bunch and hold off of them for a friend but most of the time, the rule is, if I see one or more, I'm doing my best to kill it and all his fellow travelers. Sounds like I kill a lot of hogs, and I do, but I'm out there nearly every day and make a point of being where they are likely to show up. OTOH, I didn't kill any for a couple of months in the summer, not sure if it was the drought, heat, or they just moved on to wetter areas for a while. Bottom line is, it wouldn't be worth a trip for you. I understand that Ga is over run as well, you should look closer to home. Usually the best time for hogs around here is late winter, early spring, if you're going to be in the area next February, March, or April, give me a shout and I'll let you know if I've got any lined up.

Have you asked around for breeding stock on the Texas Boars site?

FWIW about 25 yrs ago the state of mississippi would release russian boars to improve the hunting.believe they were free.there should be a lot of breeding stock available from some of this stock still in MS.dont know the regs to get them into TX though. BEST,kim

Gatordo,

I believe your figures on your pigs are a little low. My mom was the person who started the pot belly pig craze back in the 80's. She was the first person to import them into the U.S. from Europe, so she knows quite a bit about pigs. Sows can start breeding at 6 months and they can have 2-3 litters per year. They usually have 8-12 piglets PER LITTER. Yes, that means a single sow can have well over 20 piglets per year. Biologists here in Texas have stated that you must shoot 80% of your pig population every year, just to keep them at the same number. If not, the population will continue to grow. I just thought you might be able to use that info.

Eland Slayer:

My piglets per litter estimate may be low, but I am basing that on observation and numbers of pig fetuses found in some pregnant sows. I suspect that an average of 6 would be pretty close.

I can't say about pot bellied pigs, but it is essentially impossible for normal wild pigs to have 3 litter per year. Their gestation period is 112 to 115 days, so assuming they wait at least one cycle to rebreed, the most you could have is about 2 1/4 litters per year. I'm not sure but I somewhat doubt that nursing sows rebreed in 28 days (or whatver their cycle is)but have no way to check that WAG. I know if you want to kill some big wild boars, get a sow in heat in a pen and get ready. Friends of mine have something they spray on them that either makes them cycle or makes them smell like it, I'll have to check into it.

I just read an article whereby it is possible to poison wild pigs with a very high kill ratio. I had always heard that it was nearly impossible, shows what I know. I'm sure as hell not going to tell the farmers around here how to do it.

I Understand,but thank you for the reply sir!

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Safarikid:

First of all, it's deer season, so I'm not letting people I don't know run around chasing hogs, they might disturb my highly sensitive deer.

Secondly, we hunt them pretty hard and it is really hard to kill many hogs around here these days. They are smart animals and have a distinct aversion to dying. Sometimes I can locate a bunch and hold off of them for a friend but most of the time, the rule is, if I see one or more, I'm doing my best to kill it and all his fellow travelers. Sounds like I kill a lot of hogs, and I do, but I'm out there nearly every day and make a point of being where they are likely to show up. OTOH, I didn't kill any for a couple of months in the summer, not sure if it was the drought, heat, or they just moved on to wetter areas for a while. Bottom line is, it wouldn't be worth a trip for you. I understand that Ga is over run as well, you should look closer to home. Usually the best time for hogs around here is late winter, early spring, if you're going to be in the area next February, March, or April, give me a shout and I'll let you know if I've got any lined up.

quote:

we do have quite a bit of Russian in some of our local hogs.

Pretty much all domestic hogs are descended from the Eurasian wild boar (Sus scrofa) so genetically they're already 'all Russian'. It only takes a few generations in the wild for them to reaquire many of the same characteristics. Pointy ears, straight tail, bristly hair, keratinous shield, etc.

Be interesting to know the origins of TX feral hogs, maybe email the authors of this study and ask if they have any data and whether your concept is feasable.

The Origin of the Domestic Pig: Independent Domestication and Subsequent Introgression

The concept definitely works. My dad guided on a place in Mississippi back in the 70's where they did this. They bought a pure Russian breeder boar named Bruno. He was approximately 375 lbs. and they kept him in a 10 acre pen (I believe it was 10 acres) that had lots of brush and also some food plots in it. They would trap 4 or 5 sows at a time and release them into his pen until they all got bred, then they would release them back onto the ranch. For years, they only shot the undesireable color variations (white, spotted, black & white, etc...) After 3-4 years, the majority of the pigs on the property greatly resembled pure Russians. One day, when I get my ranch, I'm going to have a several hundred acre high fenced section where I will eradicate all the
"native" hogs and have a pure Russian population. They tend to be meaner and look AWESOME!

The origin of ferral hogs is obvious except that most people don't know that most early farms east of the Mississippi let hogs run free in the forest to save on feed. The ears were cut to mark different owners and come fall, the pigs were called in, sorted and slaughtered. There was usually a breed sow kept penned up for stock.

The young were trained to respond to a particular hog call before being turned out. Today's hog calling contests are remanants of a very necessary skill back in the day.

How's that for useless Sunday morning info?

heh, harry is right... read old yeller for a story about the wild herd... that's how yeller gets cutup

jeffe

An idiot neighbor of ours had a similar bright idea released a bunch of Russians in an area without proper fencing -- took 4 years of combined effort of about 15 shooters going year round (whenever we had time, if you saw one driving into town, pull over, kill it, and go back to work.) to eradicate those damn things. They killed deer, calfs, and wrecked fences. You better check on something called "existing agricultural practice" before releasing Russians anywhere. You could end up with a lot of pissed of neighbors and some big damage bills.

RE: Origin of ferals.

As with all lines of livestock, hog prices have their high and low cycles. I don't remember the exact years, but in the 1970's hog prices were very high and everybody with 5 acres and a shovel thought he was a hog farmer. Some of those would-be hog farmers tried grazing hogs in marginally-fenced pastures. Inevitably, prices fell to well below the cost of production and a lot of hog farmers just walked away from their enterprises (hmmm. . . remember the big emu boom?) While there have been some feral hogs since the days of the Spanish explorers, it seems that the current explosion is somewhat the result of relatively recent "feralization" of commercial hogs due to economic adversity.

As to a genetic return to their European wild boar origins, it would seem logical that the genetic traits that enhance survival in wild boars that still exist in domesticated hogs would be selected for under wild circumstances. Therefore, with each generation the breeding success of hogs exhibiting those traits (thicker hair for winter survival, longer snouts for rooting, leaner bodies for more speed and mobility, etc.) would be greater and each generation would, generally, begin to more closely resemble their ancestors. Of course, all of this can be speeded up by introducing European stock into the breeding population.

I can't say that releasing Euro boars (or sows) into the existing stock would do much to increase the overall population. In fact, one of the traits of domestic hogs is to have larger litters, and one of the things that domestic boars love to do is eat little piggies. Euro wild boars probably do not have as large litters, and it is less likely that they engage in infanticide the way our "civilized" hogs do. So, the bottom line is that you probably do no harm (in terms of increasing an already excessive population) by adding a handful of Euros to the mix.

By the way, I am not a wildlife biologist, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

just remember that no wire fence is "hog-proof" for long. some farmers tried electric fences with alternating hot and ground wires with only limited sucess. they will eventually get past most types of enclosures.

You can make a 100% hog proof fence but it is not easy or cheap. I've heard of people putting up 8 ft. game fence with hog panels burried 2 ft. in the ground and a hot wire on the ground. That would probably run about $5-$6 per linear foot.

quote:

That would probably run about $5-$6 per linear foot.

Try $12 to $15.

Class 3 galvanized 8 ft. game fence runs about $3.50-$4.00 per linear foot installed. Hog panels are usually about $20 per 16 ft. section. That's a lot of money but it isn't $12-$15 per foot. Mind you, there's no way to know how much it would cost to burry 2 feet of it in the ground, but I know it's not $8-$10 per foot. I think yours is a little too high. Either way, it's a lot of money to spend on pigs, unless you're going to sell hunts.

No argument about the price, since I haven't priced any high fencing, but if you can deliver it for less than $4 per foot installed, I can find you a lot of takers.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Secondly, we hunt them pretty hard and it is really hard to kill many hogs around here these days. They are smart animals and have a distinct aversion to dying. Sometimes I can locate a bunch and hold off of them for a friend but most of the time, the rule is, if I see one or more, I'm doing my best to kill it and all his fellow travelers.

Gatorado

Have you tried driven hunting for culling numbers of pigs?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Secondly, we hunt them pretty hard and it is really hard to kill many hogs around here these days. They are smart animals and have a distinct aversion to dying. Sometimes I can locate a bunch and hold off of them for a friend but most of the time, the rule is, if I see one or more, I'm doing my best to kill it and all his fellow travelers.

Gatorado

Have you tried driven hunting for culling numbers of pigs?

NitroX:

In this area we have a LOT of forests, thickets, creek and river bottoms, it would be nearly impossible for a drive to succeed because there are no natural barriers to control the pigs escape paths, because you'd have to have drivers that are willing to go through some very difficult brush, because there are not NEARLY enough people to do one, and definitely because of private property laws. As a matter of fact, I've never heard of a drive type hunt for pigs in the US on open land (not counting those fenced in "hunting" (and I use the term very loosely) farms which can drive them on foot since they've got nowhere to go), which, of course, doesn't mean it hasn't happend somewhere, sometime.

My son, then 10, and I did get a non-driven drive situation by luck a little over a year ago. We caught a group of pigs feeding, wallowing, whatever on the edge of one of my lakes, sneaked up, and, after asking him if he wanted to try the pig in front of us (he didn't), I opened the ball, me with a lever action Marlin in .38-55 with Buffalo Bore loads, my son with a bolt action Ruger .243. We were between them and the forest cover, so when I killed the first one (actually the only one we could see) about 30 yards in front of me on the edge of the lake, the others ran for the woods, and, of course, by, in front of, and behind us. My Marlin had 10 shots and my son's Ruger 4. Later, my boy said that Marlin sounded like a machine gun. I estimate it took about 10 seconds which was just about the most fun I've ever had with a rifle and NEARLY the most fun I've ever had period. When the last shot was fired (both guns empty)(missed a running pig with my son's .243 at about 80 yards) it was kind of quiet and my son looked up at me with big eyes and said, "What're we going to do now, Daddy". Being the John Wayne type, I said, "Son, we're going to call for help." When it was all over, a few friends and I had gathered up 8 pigs, there was one piglet ( shot him with about my third shot, thinking he was the last of the group, wrong ) and the others mostly in the 100 to 200 range with a couple a bit over 200. Found one dead the next day a bit further off for a total of at least 9 dead pigs. But that was a rare set of circumstances and has not been repeated, drat the luck.

Pure European boars for sale in Texas. All blood work and vet. health certificates done as well. www.brutalboarcreations.com

Here is a pic of one of our brood boars:

Cody:
since you're so far away, and the hog's so close to the camera.

How about some dimentions, height, length, wt, etc.

Thanks,

Cody, that's one hell-of-a boar! I would also love to know what he weighs.

That is Samson...our largest brood boar...he has been on both the cover of Boar Hunter magazine and Wild Boar USA along with being inside The Journal of Texas Trophy Hunters magazine. I have never weighed him, but I did weigh one of his offspring that was smaller and he tipped the scale at 462 lbs....We guess Samson at 500-525.....I have a boar that is taller, but where Samson shines is his girth.....He does not like to be touched, but I bet you could bury an arrow in his shoulder and not see either end!....He's about 6' long and 34" tall.

Cody, was he raised in captivity?

Yes...all our stock is/was born and raised in captivity. We sell brood stock to ranches looking to improve their existing feral genetics. Make their hair longer, tusks longer, shoulders and bodies bigger....in order for them to be able to charge more for hunts. 90% of our boars are double ear tagged and live out their entire lives breeding on high fence ranches. We also produce young barr hogs as stockers for ranches. If released young enough they will revert back "wild" and will become a great trophy plus meat for a hunter.

I would like to catch a SOB turning out hogs close to my place. Anyone turning out hogs needs to be shot. I have to disc and harrow my hay meadows at least twice a year to repair hog damage. Someone turned some out several years ago and now we are over run with them. I trap or shoot as many as I can but don't seem to be making a dent in the population. Anyone know of a poison that might work on hogs?

It's illegal to use poision on hogs in Texas.

I really don't care if it is legal or not, but it ought to be illegal for dumbasses to breed and turn them out too.

If the name calling is pointed at me I can say that I sell to game ranches that are high fenced operations and my animals' "spread" is regulated. I also have hay pastures that are hurt by feral hog populations that we try to keep in check as well. There is a difference between transporting and releasing feral hogs and responsibly breeding European boars for game operations.

Cody
I don't know anything about your operation, but it sounds like YOU try to be responsible with your business. The guy that started this thread is wanting to "breed up" the pig population on his low fence ranch, and he is the dumbass that I am referring to. As I said before, we had a neighbor that thought it would be "neat" to have hogs to hunt, and now we are overrun. That kind ignorant irresponsiblity is what I am referring to.