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Gentlemen, Well here goes nuthin........ I have thought long and hard about this and have tried to compare it to gun control, hunting bans, and all other sort of social ills and injustice's Here's my take. I feel that if we go ahead and shoot lions of some agreed upon age, whatever that is, We will loose the resource FOR SURE. My logic is this, the "anti's" DO NOT COMPROMISE, we however always do. if our photo's of young lions offend.....PISS OFF, we fight them. What, I ask you is the difference to the uneducated in a photo of the lion Worldhunter shot and the lion in the recent hunt report shot in Burkina Faso? NONE.... But we know the difference, they don't and more importantly they don't care. Let's say we all agree that a lion of six or better is the age...Fine with me. Is the fight now over? nope, they will incrementally continue. Next there will be a study, make no mistake and they find an outcome of their choosing, just like election recounts, keep counting till you come out ahead then stop. They will then insist...All Lion hunting must stop NOW. In MY OPINION.....MINE....MINE... We fight them now, turn the tide, we are now and are usually on our heels trying to dissuade anti's using science and logic, They don't care about facts or science or reason. They run on emotion and sad pictures. I do appreciate and admire the LCTF, Lane especially as he is the ONLY one in this fight without a financial interest at stake. I think we would do better to lobby African governments directly rather than try and persuade (beg). SCREW EM' But what do I know. Again MY OPINION Steve Formerly "Nganga" | ||
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Steve, We (LCTF) are not only fighting antihunters...we are also trying to promote what is actually GOOD for the lion. Killing 2 year old lions is NOT good for lions. Posting pics of killed 2 year old lions on the net is not good for lion hunters. By utilizing good conservation science...we are NOT giving in...we are being intelligent! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, understood. I think your missing my point, They don't care about science, conservation or probably even lions really, they have one goal. JUST STOP US. Yes, we (you)are being intelligent, but they don't use intelligence they use emotion and money. They are so damn good at this it's silly. Their first goal is to get you to start to negotiate on age, then go a few years of six year olds then 7, then 8 then none. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Steve, I am with you. I will stand by your side and fight them at every corner. But...at the same time...we (hunters) should still do what is right...not to appease...but because it is right. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, Good you Texans are good to have on ones side. Unfortunately I think its going to come down to money. Like most things do.  Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Agreed! Read the last sentence in my tag-line. Still happy fight by your side. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I’m happy to say that I too wish to fight right besides you guys: Fight not to just screw the anti’s, but also for and in the interest of the lion, the other animals, the poor communities who get benefits from lion and other hunting and conservation by wise utilization in general. But, yes, also for the outfitters and PH’s who make money from hunting. In the end it will boil down to money! We need gold to be able to make the rules! Maybe a study is needed, if not already done, in which the decline in the lion population and the total revenue gained from hunting income in non-hunting countries, like Kenya, is compared to countries like Tanzanian or Zambia where lion hunting has been ongoing for a long time. Even though there has been some, or maybe even a lot of ‘bad for lion conservation’ hunting of young lions, I’m still very confident that a decent study will show that lion hunting is good, not only for the lion, but also for the general population, and treasury! 'We' can then claim the right to make the rules. Naturally the African governments actually makes the rules, but they also benifit more from lion hunting than those misguided idiots who listlened to the anti's and banned hunting in thier own countries. In the meantime screw the anti’s! LCTF you have my full support. Andrew McLaren Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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The antis and the likes of Joubert do not want research as this would only prove that they have got it all wrong. It was only a few years ago when Leopard was the focal point. They have now been forgotten and the King of the Beasts is an obvious target. The formula is quite simple - protect the National Parks and let the hunters create and manage buffer zones around them. Strictly segregate photographic and hunting. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I am one of the educated:Explain to me the diffrence please! I know west african lions have less mane but I find it impossible to judge a lion from only one picture. | |||
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steve, your post says Lane is the only one without something at stake, your are wrong as I am a member of the task force and I can assure the only thing financial in it for me is a loss of money so if we are going to fight antis lets be sure we stay with the facts. I would not have responded except you yelled Lane was the ONLY one. not true | |||
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505 - No question, JJ is the biggest proponent of the lion and all that is wildlife conservation. His commitment is beyond reproach, and CF should be supported to the fullest extent. The LCTF, has suggested his support as much as anyone. But, as you would know, if you had spent hours of your time speaking with JJ, answering and communicating with him via dozens of emails, and attended the personal meetings the LCTF has had with him in the past 2 months. You would know his focus, as it should be is on the application of the law, as it pertains to the ESA listing, or the CITES up-listing! He's an attorney, that's his specialty, and no one knows it better than him! The focus of the LCTF is changing protocal within our own fraternity! We are NOT legal experts, so we leave the legal stuff to JJ and the CF. We are fighting for the same cause, but taking two different approaches, as to who is the target audience, to some degree. JJ has his hands full dealing with all the legality issues of the ESA listing, etc, etc, etc. He's fully aware of our approach, and is supporting us too, 100%! I get emails from him on a daily basis. As an attorney, its his motive, to only approach an issue from the stance of the law. He rarely, if ever, gives a nod to the opposition, even when recognizing a problem. Does that make sense, are you following me? He must take a different approach than us, and WE HAVE ALL discussed that in PERSON. So once again, if you really knew all the info/facts, you might better understand exactly what's going on, and WHY!!! I don't mean to be condescending, but there's much that has been done/said, that you simply have NOT been a party to. The potential listing, will uphold the 90-day review. The fight will begin after that! Our biggest asset/liability will be what side the likes of Dr. Craig Packer, Dr. Luke Hunter, Dr. Colleen Begg, and others, take. Period, end of story, and I can't stress that enough!! So, if they see and recognize the hunting fraternity's willingness and ability to assert change as it pertains to shooting young lions, dependent pride holding males, etc, etc. They will without a doubt, side with the hunters, they have all but said so. However, is they see status quo, the continued shooting of young lions, etc. They will side in favor of the uplisting. And unfortunately the USFWS, CITES and Ken Salazar are gonna listen to the "EXPERTS", regardless of what you think, say, lobby against, or do! The needed change, has been proven with the best available science to be sound. So, who do you think they're gonna listen to. I don't like it anymore than you do, but unfortunately "POLITICS", plays a part in African Wildlife Conservation, just like it does in most other aspects of life. Its important to recognize the difference between what we are doing and what JJ/CF is doing. JJ knows, and so do we, and we ALL support eachother! | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...1002751/m/2241094851 | |||
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This is because he knows that is where the war will be won or lost.
using bullying, shame and force will not have the effect you desire, I assure you.
I do not need to know all the "info/facts" to understand that this has been grossly mishandled by the members of the "LCTF". Perhaps your organization would be better served by becoming a conduit for factual and up to date information, welcoming debate and differing opinions rather than ruling lion hunting with an iron fist. For the most part, you are dealing with intelligent, successful, independant men here, and they will not respond well to that style of "handling". | |||
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505 I think that we need to give Aaron the benefit of the doubt here in that he may just be an ineffective communicator. I have made my thoughts on this clear to him, but perhaps we need to bury the hatchet and move things forward. Aaron, I think you have already left but I would be interested in seeing if we can get more of the information that pertains to this shared. It has been said many times that we were not party to all the info. If there is more info that can be shared without doing harm then perhaps now is the time. One thing that we can perhaps all appreciate is that someone who is party to the inner workings, and who is very passionate about lion hunting has been motivated to stick his neck out and make some points. They may not have been in the best taste, but maybe there was real concern and fear of repercussions that clouded his judgment and made him a bit quick on the trigger. Either way, those threats are still there and obviously very real. As Aaron said, he is most certainly not out to punish hunters, but an urgent change may be required in order for this not to have a very unhappy ending that we will all regret. So lets take the focus off the man and place it firmly on the problem. That way when we sit at the table and make our case, we will be united behind the goals that will support Lion conservation. | |||
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HQ, Have you read this?The ESA Petition Summary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Hi Lane Yes I have. I do however see a few glaring areas that you guys should target in making sure that this petition is put into perspective. All population figures are taken from the work of Mr Bauer. What support is there for the figures. Have you guys looked at what other research has been done and brought this to light. Have you initiated your own investigation into the methods used by Bauer and made sure that you are not being beaten with the wrong stick. People must stop getting emotional and get down to business. They are not going to win this appeal with a heap of lies, there is enough truth in what they say, from their perspective, to make this stick. What has been done to show all other perspectives, not just the hunters? I quote from the text, "Listing the African lion as Endangered under the ESA would end imports of commercial and recreational lion trophies and all lion specimens into the United States, [B]unless they are found to enhance the survival or propagation of the species[/B or are for scientific purposes" Here is where they are not chasing their tails. We should have woken up to this years ago. I have said this before and I say it again, there are not enough lions for everyone to shoot one. There are however enough hunters of sufficient financial means who want to hunt lion who will pay much more for them, enough to fund full time research teams to monitor ever actively hunted lion population. The price of a lion should not be what the average Joe will pay, but that which is needed to pay for the ongoing protection through sustainable utilization. Make hunting the key to their survival by paying for the researchers. Start putting them on the ground and publish your success, then for the first time, we would have taken the anti hunting propaganda machine and used it to highlight what can be done. This is not a complex problem, but you cannot make it about your rights and your constitution, it has to be about lion conservation and only lion conservation, utilizing the most effective tool, hunting. | |||
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From what I have seen and heard we are not going to just rely on his numbers. we are trying with the Consevation Force to fund a new study that will hopefully clarfy somethings. i have several lion hunts booked and Yes i did pay a high price but would I have paid higher, The answer is yes, glad I did not have to but I fully understand your statement. Every one can help but yes hunters that want to hunt lions should not mind paying more as long as the fee is designated for conservation and not to be used as a way for the operator to just make a bigger profit.Actually I would probably paid higher for the hunt and would probably pay more if I actually shot a trophy lion. I agree getting that petition through would be a tragedy to all african hunting and would lead to them coming harder for hunting everywhere. | |||
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Can you legaly kill lion over bait in Burkina Faso? | |||
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"United we stand, divided we fall" How true these words ring out today. Unfortunately, hunting an African Lion is out of reach for the average Joe, and for us to think that only American's can afford to hunt Lions is a joke. We are only a piece of the worldwide puzzle and in case anyone hasn't been paying attention, many hunters from all over the world are partaking in Africa's game hunting. We spend far too much time bickering over the Internet and less time paying attention. This ordeal is no joke, and unless we begin to unite, importing Lion's into the US will be a thing of the past, just like the Jaguar and Polar Bear. The ESA list is growing, and all the anti freaks want is ONE STEP AT A TIME. Take heed my friends, class is in session and the teacher is watching. LDK Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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I don't think so. I believe it is tracking hunts only. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Correct Jim. Tracking and calling only. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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So then lion hunting in Burkina Faso has another enemy, the LCTF. | |||
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explain how.... or do you just want to argue against LCTF? What you can achieve with baiting you can almost equally achieve with calling  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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"Thereafter, you need to try and determine if it is holding a pride or not! If you can keep watching that lion over bait for a good 48 hrs and there are no sign of females" You must have forgotten you said that. This was your proposed meathod, backed by the head of the LCTF, for how lions have to be killed from now on. Explain to people hgow you watch lions for 48 hours that you are tracking or calling. See Bwanna, you are an anti-hunter and didn't even know it. | |||
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And you are obviously "one-dimensional" in everything you read, see or do. Therefore, you don't know how to adapt, improvise or use logic in any given situation. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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 Says the man who wants a wildlife management plan that works in one tiny corner of africa forced onto the entire continent. I am the only one here using logic and saying we need to taylor make management plans one case at a time for everyone. You think you should rule over every company and decide how it should get done. I am the only one here that knows how to improvise. Bwanna, I think you do great work where you are at. Stay there and keep doing it. Just as I don't think it is good science or good business to force your practices down other operators throats in other nations I don't think they should do the same to you. | |||
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To me ALL these threads are starting to look like a grammar school classroom with two groups of boys arguing about whether it's correct to wear white or black high top converse sneakers this school year. To those that are actually doing something up front or behind the scenes to attempt to preserve Lion hunting and thus potentially help the future of the African Lion I thank you. To those that have made this their own personal battle of wits on both sides carry on. I'll wade through the chaff and hope your zeal doesn't dissuade from the positive efforts of those actually doing something behind the scenes. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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You gotta love the idea that if someone is doing "something" it must be good. Kind of like healthcare?????? | |||
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Carry on ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Lions, LCTF and Burkina Faso
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