Saeed we are talking about the way of pricing my point was it was happening long before kudus was price like that, and you know as well as I do not every kudu in this country is farm grown as you call it.

Crbutler thanks for the reply it help us A lot to see things from A clients point of view, that was the reason behind my post Thanks!

I will admit that I have never been on a "package" hunt. That would obviously need to be a little different as far as turning one down is concerned, given some of the outfitter comments, but still I'd expect that that issue would be hashed out before the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Saeed we are talking about the way of pricing my point was it was happening long before kudus was price like that, and you know as well as I do not every kudu in this country is farm grown as you call it.

Crbutler thanks for the reply it help us A lot to see things from A clients point of view, that was the reason behind my post Thanks!

Philip,

As far as I am concerned, ANY animal that is bred in the confines of a fence is farmed.

It makes no difference how big the fence is.

Dave, you then in fact charge more since it is not part of the package then, in most cases packages have discounted day rates, mine has any way, thanks for A good conversation!

Thanks Saeed point taken, would that include SAVE?

Philip,

It really makes no difference where a fenced area is.

Once I know that there is a fence around it, it becomes a different ball game.

This has nothing to do with how hard or easy the area is.

Just knowing that one is hunting inside a fence makes it different; for me at least.

Saeed, I hunt allot in free roaming areas all over Africa with my clients and it sure beets A high fence I agree 100%, however free roaming areas is becoming very expensive and in most cases out of reach from the average hunter. High fences was the saving Grace for game in South Africa thou I don't think there would have being much left if we did not have fences.

THANKS FOR HOSTING THIS FORUM IT SURE IS A GREAT PLACE TO VIOCE A OPINION!

Philips,

You are very welcome.

I fear putting a price per inch on plains game animals is going to make many people think twice about hunting them.

Charging by the inch it sort of a litmus test for me. If the outfitter does business that way then I look for another outfitter.

I understand the free market aspect to it but personally I take my money elsewhere.

Hard for me to believe that people are so excited about the practice of charging for size of the animal. I predict it will become universal or nearly so. If for no other reason than the size will become a way for the government or trophy fee entity to collect more money. Don't like it, don't go.

The name of the game is money, anyone who thinks otherwise is being foolish. Larger animals should be worth more money. Makes perfect sense to me.

Personally, I'd gladly go on a decent (not penned, canned, etc) hunt where they had a price per inch, so to speak, and the circumstances for the possibility of a 60 inch kudu. I might not get one, but I'd know that I was likely hunting in an area that had them.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Another thing, not wishing to hijack the thread, but I simply hate the car dealers who charge different prices for cars. Why can't a Ford Mustang and a Fiat Uno not be sold for the same price?

Have you seen the prices charged for Ferrari's these days? Rediculous! Not to mention Porches!

I will only buy a car from a dealer who has one fixed price for all his models!

http://choiceafricasafaris.co.za/Pricelist.htm
http://www.sadakasafaris.com/h...vitiespricelist.html
http://www.kolobesafaris.co.za..._safari_company.html
http://www.koedoeberg.co.za/prices/
http://www.safariafrika.net/rates.html
http://www.phbert.co.za/hunt.htm

In good hunting.

Andrew:
I see your sarcasm in this and you are correct. The one difference is we are supposed to be HUNTING. I do, however, see the similarity in shopping for a car and going to South Africa and doing the same, walking and observing the animals and picking out one that suits you. That is not hunting but it is the same procedure as buying a car. For pen raised SA animals I can see it done but not for truly "fair chase" honest hunting.
Cal

Paying by the inch doesn't hold any appeal to me although I can understand the issues the outfitters have if they are being charged that way.

Puts the outfitters in a tough position and if they don't charge for the animals the way they are being charged, I would expect that their "one size fits all" pricing would have to increase with the end result being clients shooting smaller animals would be subsidising the outfitter's cost associated with client's shooting bigger animals.

Best of luck to the outfitters in figuring this out. I guess if I did hunt in this fashion the one thing I would demand when leaving is the outfitter's tape measure to take home so I can prove once and for all to my wife that my "you know what" really is 12" long!

CAL, It is not only in South Africa, it happens in the USA hell they invented the by inch thing with their big whitetails and elk, in New Zeeland the stags are priced like that, I did mention elephants before, sable in Namibia and lots of the European species, I honestly think South Africa are used as A example of something that happens all over the world,

We have lots of issues to deal with over here to keep prospective clients looking at us as a hunting destination and yes we don't have all the big free roaming areas like the rest of Africa but ranching game has done much more good than bad. and more and more ranchers are starting conservancies with neighbours so in the near future you will start seeing more and more really nice big ranches to hunt on, that is if our government don't go south... and with Zuma in charge anything is possible.

Just to set the record straight, the application of a surcharge for weight of ivory came about long before elephant were hunted for sporting purposes.

The governing authorities of the era had established that a royalty per/lb. had to be paid into the government coffers as a form of tax, over and above the licence fee.

In today's world the surcharge has not changed much other than imposing a different rate for different weight categories, e.g. from 12 - 40lbs; 41 - 60lbs and 61+lbs. on the trophy fee.

This surcharge is normally applied by the governing bodies and not the outfitter, it is monies payable directly to the government and not the outfitter, though it would be incorrect to say that this rule is fully adhered to as there are some unscrupulous individuals who find the need to have to cash in wherever possible.

There is no government body that I know of in Africa that will apply a surcharge on any other species of game.

Any extra charge per inch is therefore the whim of the "farmer" who owns the animal to do as he pleases and in a way understandable as he has to cover his breeding and rearing costs - I guess specially prepared feed consisting in high protein and steroids does not come cheap.

Fujotupu, Sorry but in Botswana and Caprivi the price is set and what ever the per pound price is was up to the outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Fujotupu, Sorry but in Botswana and Caprivi the price is set and what ever the per pound price is was up to the outfitter.

Would that be because the outfitter bought and paid for the elephant up front maybe?

gentlemen,
as somebody has mentioned here on this thread, it is the landowner/game rancher who sets these per inch fees in most cases, not the outfitter. I have been sent some 2014 price lists and have damn near had a stroke when I looked at what some ranchers suddenly want.
They are squeezing the margins for the outfitters more and more.
TIA.

good hunting,

John

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Another thing, not wishing to hijack the thread, but I simply hate the car dealers who charge different prices for cars. Why can't a Ford Mustang and a Fiat Uno not be sold for the same price?

Have you seen the prices charged for Ferrari's these days? Rediculous! Not to mention Porches!

I will only buy a car from a dealer who has one fixed price for all his models!

http://choiceafricasafaris.co.za/Pricelist.htm
http://www.sadakasafaris.com/h...vitiespricelist.html
http://www.kolobesafaris.co.za..._safari_company.html
http://www.koedoeberg.co.za/prices/
http://www.safariafrika.net/rates.html
http://www.phbert.co.za/hunt.htm

In good hunting.

Thanks Andrew! I see my prices are way too low

If you blokes think it's bad now just wait till they all start doing it on giraffe prices!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Another thing, not wishing to hijack the thread, but I simply hate the car dealers who charge different prices for cars. Why can't a Ford Mustang and a Fiat Uno not be sold for the same price?

"Have you seen the prices charged for Ferrari's these days? Rediculous! Not to mention Porches!

I will only buy a car from a dealer who has one fixed price for all his models!"

Ha ha- You are comparing apples to oranges.

I will never pay by the inch. I will go elsewhere to hunt or give up on Africa.

this thread makes me somewhat nostalgic, and at the same time happy that much of my hunting, africa,and wherever,that i did it in past times when hunting as not regulated as much by the cash register

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I've seen a couple of Ads for outfitters with one price for kudu <50" and another price for >50".
I just pass them by as I'm not interested in hunting by the inch.

+1

I've been on packaged hunts, including South Africa-as recently as last June, and none of the trophy fees were ever based upon size or inches regarding any of the animals that I have hunted. During those hunts, I have been very fortunate to have shot some very good animals, because we hunted hard. Never did any of my PHs ever tell me that the packaged hunt I was on required me to shoot the first mature animal that we spotted and that he would ask me to shoot. And yes, I recognize the old adage that you can take it or leave it. No one is forcing anyone to hunt. In my case, I'll just choose to leave the inches and tiers to someone else and go with an outfitter or PH who does not hunt by the inches.

When I booked my 2011 PG trip, I ruled out outfitters with either Tier or PPI(priceperinch). While I have no problems with those pricing structures, I make the choice to hunt with flat fee pricing. I ended up booking in Namibia.

My trip in '15 will also have Kudu on quota, and again I have booked with an outfit with fixed flat prices in Moz.

It is one thing to agree to a bonus for an animal that exceeds a certain measurement. That just helps set expectations. It's another matter to charge by the inch or by the pound. The latter seems to go hand in hand with put and take operations or at a minimum fenced operations. (I understand elephants can be a bit different).

I'm there to take the best quality trophy available, although that isn't my main goal. However, I wouldn't be happy if a PH isn't showing the best he has to offer because he is saving the "big one" for a higher paying customer. In a true free range situation, you can't generally "hold" most animals, so that shouldn't be an issue.

That said, I'd understand a fenced operation not wanting to sell "Fred" to the guy who bought a bargain package. Not my cup of tea, in any event.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
It is one thing to agree to a bonus for an animal that exceeds a certain measurement. That just helps set expectations. It's another matter to charge by the inch or by the pound. The latter seems to go hand in hand with put and take operations or at a minimum fenced operations. (I understand elephants can be a bit different).

I'm there to take the best quality trophy available, although that isn't my main goal. However, I wouldn't be happy if a PH isn't showing the best he has to offer because he is saving the "big one" for a higher paying customer. In a true free range situation, you can't generally "hold" most animals, so that shouldn't be an issue.

That said, I'd understand a fenced operation not wanting to sell "Fred" to the guy who bought a bargain package. Not my cup of tea, in any event.

Can't agree 100% with the put and take comment or that outfitters will hold out "the big one" in all cases. As mentioned, this pay by the inch scheme has been practiced with whitetails for quite a while now. Back in 2010, I had lost my deer lease when the land was sold to a new owner and failed to secure a new lease that year. Not wanting to miss out on a year's deer hunting, I booked a self guided 3 day hunt on a nearby ranch. It was most definitely a low fence place and had almost no improvements as it was a working cattle ranch first and foremost.

That particular rancher charged $500 each time you came out, whether you stayed 1, 3, 5, or 7 days. $500 per trip. Then on top of that, he had a sliding scale to price the trophy fee if you scored on a buck. Pigs were free, but bucks under 125" were $500, 126" to 140" $1,000, 141" to 160" $1,500, then X amount per inch above 160". As luck would have it, I took a buck that scored 141", costing me an extra $500 if he had been one inch less. On this hunt, again it was self guided so there was no one in the blind with me to "give me a price". You simply shot what you had an opportunity on, if you had an opportunity, and paid the fiddler after the dance.

When I shot my buck that year, I didn't for a single moment, think to myself what amount of check I was going to write if I pulled the trigger. I simply recognized it for a good buck for this area and shot him. I'm relating this experience only to illustrate that just because there is a price structure based on size, it's not always the preconceived "grocery shopping" errand some are making it out to be. And just like the RSA ranchers, this particular rancher was simply taking advantage of supply and demand, and the pricing he was able to realize as a result. Like it or not, and I really don't like it, if you're hunting someone else's land, you have to realize that land is costing the rancher a certain amount of money to own and maintain it, as well as manage the herd available to hunt. It's unrealistic in today's environment to expect him not to seek maximum returns on his investment.

Really the same can be said about our deer leases here in Texas. The price per gun is usually based on the quality of hunting experience one can expect. Yes, there are other factors such as year round vs deer season only leases, and number of hunters on a given number of acres, but generally speaking, you'll pay more for a lease that consistently produces larger bucks than one that hasn't been managed for quality deer.

Paying to hunt, and paying more for a better result, be that in terms of overall experience or size of animals, is here to stay I'm afraid. Unless you want to rely solely on drawing in the western states where there is plenty of public land, and then fight the battle of an orange vest behind every tree. But that is another topic entirely.

This thread has shown quite a few aspects and reality’s that we are faced with when booking safaris, not just in SA but abroad.

As I am both an outfitter/concession owner and a hunter, I will give 2 opinions.

As a landowner I charge 2 prices to outfitters who hunt in my areas for Kudu, under 50” and over 50”.

This is to the Outfitters not the clients, this gives the outfitters an opportunity to sell some management hunts or package hunts to shoot out a % of my bull population that is the fastest recovering as well as old bulls with broken tips and horns. It is a great management tool for me as I get an income for bulls I would normally just cull for meat,


Outfitters who bring clients to hunt a trophy bull on my areas will only shoot bulls well over 50” there for only charge one price, I do not have the monster 60”+ bulls but plenty 54” to 57” class if you hunt hard.


If one of my client said to me, listen I want to hunt an area with the potential of breaking the 60” mark I will contact that reserve owner and negotiate a price based on the biggest bull we could shoot, this way I know what the maximum my client would be in for if he was lucky enough to shoot a monster, then there is no guessing in the field as to what each animal costs,


I am a small outfitter and only take about 2 or 3 clients a year in South Africa who want to concentrate on shooting a monster bull, biggest we have taken was 59.5” and was at a reasonable rate.

But the difference was that by accepting the land owner’s sliding scale pricing we have been able to hunt areas that produce monster bulls,


Again this is only for SA high fence or low fence reserves, not into Africa, there it is one price fits all and good luck to the guy who hunts hard and shoots a monster,

Now as a hunter I love hunting Kudu, it’s my all-time favourite plains game species to hunt multiple times; I have over 40 shoulder mounts on my wall, all between 53” and 58”.

I take every opportunity I can to hunt Kudu. I am in the cattle business so I spend a lot of time on farms and areas I buy cattle.

Almost 100% of these farms have Kudu and if I always have either my 7mm or my 300 in the bakkie, if we driving and I see a big bull or the farmer tells me about this huge Kudu on his place I straight away ask him for a per “ price, this way there is no bull shit once it’s in the salt .

I like it because I always say to him Oom what the price for the biggest Kudu on the farm, when he says X I don’t even argue with him I say that’s great now if I shoot anything smaller than that I will pay you 50% of that price.

Up till today I have not had one farmer say no to that deal, and up till today I have not shot the biggest Kudu of the farms or paid the top amount.

I know this cant work for you all as clients, but i belive that if you are to hunt areas with a sliding scale on Kudu, as long as the maximum price is reasonable and realistic,

then go for it, its no reason to boycot a outfitter or area because they have sliding scale, all you are doing is cutting off your nose to spite your face,


Reg

JK

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
It is one thing to agree to a bonus for an animal that exceeds a certain measurement. That just helps set expectations. It's another matter to charge by the inch or by the pound. The latter seems to go hand in hand with put and take operations or at a minimum fenced operations. (I understand elephants can be a bit different).

I'm there to take the best quality trophy available, although that isn't my main goal. However, I wouldn't be happy if a PH isn't showing the best he has to offer because he is saving the "big one" for a higher paying customer. In a true free range situation, you can't generally "hold" most animals, so that shouldn't be an issue.

That said, I'd understand a fenced operation not wanting to sell "Fred" to the guy who bought a bargain package. Not my cup of tea, in any event.

Can't agree 100% with the put and take comment or that outfitters will hold out "the big one" in all cases. As mentioned, this pay by the inch scheme has been practiced with whitetails for quite a while now. Back in 2010, I had lost my deer lease when the land was sold to a new owner and failed to secure a new lease that year. Not wanting to miss out on a year's deer hunting, I booked a self guided 3 day hunt on a nearby ranch. It was most definitely a low fence place and had almost no improvements as it was a working cattle ranch first and foremost.

That particular rancher charged $500 each time you came out, whether you stayed 1, 3, 5, or 7 days. $500 per trip. Then on top of that, he had a sliding scale to price the trophy fee if you scored on a buck. Pigs were free, but bucks under 125" were $500, 126" to 140" $1,000, 141" to 160" $1,500, then X amount per inch above 160". As luck would have it, I took a buck that scored 141", costing me an extra $500 if he had been one inch less. On this hunt, again it was self guided so there was no one in the blind with me to "give me a price". You simply shot what you had an opportunity on, if you had an opportunity, and paid the fiddler after the dance.

When I shot my buck that year, I didn't for a single moment, think to myself what amount of check I was going to write if I pulled the trigger. I simply recognized it for a good buck for this area and shot him. I'm relating this experience only to illustrate that just because there is a price structure based on size, it's not always the preconceived "grocery shopping" errand some are making it out to be. And just like the RSA ranchers, this particular rancher was simply taking advantage of supply and demand, and the pricing he was able to realize as a result. Like it or not, and I really don't like it, if you're hunting someone else's land, you have to realize that land is costing the rancher a certain amount of money to own and maintain it, as well as manage the herd available to hunt. It's unrealistic in today's environment to expect him not to seek maximum returns on his investment.

Really the same can be said about our deer leases here in Texas. The price per gun is usually based on the quality of hunting experience one can expect. Yes, there are other factors such as year round vs deer season only leases, and number of hunters on a given number of acres, but generally speaking, you'll pay more for a lease that consistently produces larger bucks than one that hasn't been managed for quality deer.

Paying to hunt, and paying more for a better result, be that in terms of overall experience or size of animals, is here to stay I'm afraid. Unless you want to rely solely on drawing in the western states where there is plenty of public land, and then fight the battle of an orange vest behind every tree. But that is another topic entirely.

Got news for you guys.

The really BIG ONES, the ones that score up in the Top 10 in SCI, are already being collected by crooked PHs who are keeping them for crooked so called "trophy hunters"!

Hey, what is $100,000 for being in one of those silly "Inner Circles" SCI is so proud to promote!

That is why you will never, ever see me hunt with ANY outfit that charges per inch!

The biggest problem is the big kudus get more at auction than what someone is prepared to pay to hunt them. Some get bout for breeding but I think most get bought to sell to very wealthy hunters who are looking for bragging rights

So Saeed,

Just want to check your position on this, I sell 2 classes of Buffalo in Timbavati ,

Over 40”Buffalo of which we only get 4 on quota and then Dugga buffalo under 40” of which we get 25 on quota,

All of which have to be over 12 year old bulls,

Does this mean you would not hunt in the Timbavati because of this restriction put on us by Kruger?

JK

As long as things are in the open and people are honest about it then I don't personally have an issue with it.

On one of my trips to SA we were visiting two lodges. Our Outfitter was very open and advised me to concentrate on Kudu at the first lodge as the landowner of the second farm had a two tier price for Kudu above and below 55". The Outfitter explained they he personally disliked it but that it was becoming more and more common as landowners have learnt what animals on their farms are worth....

A word of advice for you folks that don't like tiered pricing systems......I suggest you don't come hunting big Roe Bucks in Europe where pricing bands are commonly done in grams !

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
So Saeed,

Just want to check your position on this, I sell 2 classes of Buffalo in Timbavati ,

Over 40”Buffalo of which we only get 4 on quota and then Dugga buffalo under 40” of which we get 25 on quota,

All of which have to be over 12 year old bulls,

Does this mean you would not hunt in the Timbavati because of this restriction put on us by Kruger?

JK

Are you selling them at 2 prices?

If yes, then I sure will not be hunting them.

Now all this silliness has raised its ugly head, I am glad I have done plenty of hunting.

I have shot so many of each different species, and as I am not a collector, I can choose who to hunt with.

Yes most definitely we sell at 2 different prices, either you buy a Trophy Buffalo hunt, or a Dugga Buffalo hunt.

Many of my clients are in your position that they have taken huge buffalo before and have paid the 21 day safaris to Tanzania or Zambia to hunt those bulls,

Now they just want to hunt old scrum caps and Dugga buffalo, I have 2 clients who book out the month of August and hunt 6 Buffalo each,

They happy because they get to shoot old hard boss buffalo at a discounted rate to the Trophy Buffalo,

I see nothing wrong with this, and I do not see this as selling per inch,

Another difference is that you as client are not penalised by the Ph’s mistake.

We had a 42" Buffalo shot this year on a Dugga Buffalo hunt; this was a true mistake by my Ph. who has over 500 buffalo to his name in the Timbavati.

I am sorry you feel that way as I know you enjoy hunting true wild buffalo and old warrior’s, this puts us out of your destinations to visit.

JK