we have all heard that the .375 is on the light side for elephant.
but i gather that tuskless cows/bulls are alot smaller.

so would you consider .375H&H enough for these animals?

Not necessarily true that they are smaller, and reportedly they are commonly MORE aggressive because they have to be. Unable to strip their own bark they are forced to take it away from tusked elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:
so would you consider .375H&H enough for these animals?

Yes, but it would be safer with a caliber over .400.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Yes, but it would be safer with a caliber over .400.

then its not good enough.

based on your reply to a question of mine in another thread(about PAC animals), larger elephants are within reach for us normal people too.

so i think .458wm is the way to go.

You can brain shoot cows easily with a 375; however, consider what happens after the shot. If the rest of the herd decides to walk away after the shot, you're OK. If one of her sisters decides to sort you out, you'll be wishing you had some more thump in you hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Yes, but it would be safer with a caliber over .400.

then its not good enough.

based on your reply to a question of mine in another thread(about PAC animals), larger elephants are within reach for us normal people too.

so i think .458wm is the way to go.

With hand loads, most defiantly.

You are often sorting a tuskless out of a cow herd. Use what you want but the .375 is the minimum legally. I don't know of a client that used one on elephant that used it again a 2nd time. I'm sure there are some like that but I can't think of anyone whereas I can think of many that use larger. I'm comfortable with more gun myself.

I would rather hunt a bull with a 375H&H than a tuskless. I would rather hunt any elephant with a 458wm with selected factory ammo or my handloads.

JPK

While a bigger gun, well handled is better,
I killed a cow elephant in the SAVE with my 9,3x74R at five yards.
They are expecially aggressive, or so it seems.

I have also killed cows and bulls with a 450 No2 and a 450/400.

If hunting elephants is not a good enough reason to buy a double, I do not know what is.

Unless it is to hunt wild pigs.

quote:

so would you consider .375H&H enough for these animals?

Nope.

quote:

Originally posted by Head Trauma:
You can brain shoot cows easily with a 375; however, consider what happens after the shot. If the rest of the herd decides to walk away after the shot, you're OK. If one of her sisters decides to sort you out, you'll be wishing you had some more thump in you hands.

The above is a problem with hunting the cow elephant, or lioness! You satnd a chance of causeing a multiple charge, because the females of those species tend to band together, and protect the fallen member. In that case a little more gun is indicated!

Though I'd not shy away from shooting either with a 375H&H, I'd rather have a good double rifle chambered for a .400 cal or larger for the elephant, but especially a tuskless cow elephant!

Everyone knows Harry Manners used nothing but a 375 M70. He spoke of how others viewed it, spoke of how it performed for him. If it truly has a problem it's overpenetration. The way to fix it is to do as Robertson suggested and Norma did; load a heavier 350 gr and slow it down some. Then go hunt buff and ele.

I bought a 470 to hunt tuskless & buff. But if all I had was a 375 I'd still go.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Everyone knows Harry Manners used nothing but a 375 M70. He spoke of how others viewed it, spoke of how it performed for him. If it truly has a problem it's overpenetration. The way to fix it is to do as Robertson suggested and Norma did; load a heavier 350 gr and slow it down some. Then go hunt buff and ele.

I bought a 470 to hunt tuskless & buff. But if all I had was a 375 I'd still go.

It would makes no difference wat hunters like Harry manners have said and done.

There will always be people who believe a bigger bullet will make up for their bad bullet placement.

I haven't done it yet, but everyone I've heard recommends 450 or larger, so if the 375 is too small those 416's better stay home too then ...

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There will always be people who believe a bigger bullet will make up for their bad bullet placement.

Saeed, that's a bit harsh, don't you think? No one with any experience would suggest that bullet placement is not the most important factor in shooting and killing big game.

But not every shot, even when taken by an expert marksman on a target range, lands in the X-ring. We all try to shoot straight, but everyone is bound to fail from time to time, especially under the stress of hunting dangerous game. I know I have.

I would prefer a big bore over a medium for any kind of elephant. If I am unlucky and end up scoring a 7 or 8 on a charging bull, I'd rather do it with a .500 at 7,000-8,000 ft.-lbs. than with a .375 at 4,000.

I trust the many throughout history who have insisted, as a result of first hand experience, that it can and often does make a difference.

Of course it matters. Actual fact matters. Manners and Johnson shot more than few ele with a 375. Manners said good side head shots on bulls whistled off yonder with regularity. Saeed, you shoot a 375/404. As I recall you crank it up and shoot a frangible bullet. This is the point. Dump the energy. Either way works.

I've always thought it a bit disingenuous to take the examples of men like Manners, Bell, etc. to prove a point such as this. I think the more experience a person has, the more that argument becomes valid but the inverse is also true. Because most of us don't get that kind of experience, a big bore becomes an appealing option if the person can handle the increased weight and power. Those who guide for elephants with a 375 are few and far between. Those who use it on tuskless on a regular basis...can't think of any.

Or you could come at it from a different angle...for every small bore elephant hunter you name, I will give you several big bore hunters...deceased, contemporary, AR members, whatever!

I note that there is great controversy with the former size of Britain. I really think it is a very good gauge for large antelopes, but I think that is not so good for hunting dangerous, I prefer to hunt these species a good 40 caliber rifle. It is my opinion.

Regards,

Oscar.

And let's not forget that quite a few historical advocates of the small and medium bores for elephant ended up dead by pachyderm. We only hear from the relatively small number of survivors who chose to put pen to paper.

And even these, most of whom were literarily inclined poachers (Manners included), wounded and often lost a lot of elphants.

That is not an option, or one might rather say is a very expensive and undesirable option, nowadays.

mrlexma, I am your same opinion, I think that you can use a 375 whenever I supported this by a professional hunter armed conveniently (416, 450, 500 etc. ...). The first thing is the safety of the client, the professional hunter and the other persons who may be affected by a dangerous wounded animal.

Oscar.

The difference in energy/momentum and frontal area between a 375 and a 416 is not that much. I'm upgrading to a 470 when I rebarrel my 375 this winter. It's a large step up from both the 375 and 416 in Taylor KO power and not that much more recoil than a 416.

Chuck

One question for you Chuck
What difference of energy between a 375 H & H Magnum and the 416 Rigby?. I think what I said, a 375 H & H seems to me little to safely shoot an elephant, or a hippopotamus or a rhinoceros (where hunting them this enabled), and I think the 416 Rigby what a great cartridge for such animals.

Thanks and regards,

Oscar.

Gee, where have I heard all this before?

I only have experience with 3 Elephants. The first I shot with a 375,frontal brain shot, missed the brain, elephant got away, died (because of follow up shot in the heart/lung area) after crossing the boundary into another area. Bought a new 470NE for next one. Heart lung shot on a female and she ran about 100yards. Last one with a 416Rigby. Heart lung shot. Ran about a mile. You figure what is better. I am an adequate shot with all three weapons easily capable of putting all rounds into 3" off hand at 50 yards which is much further than any shot on Elephant I have made.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There will always be people who believe a bigger bullet will make up for their bad bullet placement.

Saeed, that's a bit harsh, don't you think? No one with any experience would suggest that bullet placement is not the most important factor in shooting and killing big game.

But not every shot, even when taken by an expert marksman on a target range, lands in the X-ring. We all try to shoot straight, but everyone is bound to fail from time to time, especially under the stress of hunting dangerous game. I know I have.

I would prefer a big bore over a medium for any kind of elephant. If I am unlucky and end up scoring a 7 or 8 on a charging bull, I'd rather do it with a .500 at 7,000-8,000 ft.-lbs. than with a .375 at 4,000.

I trust the many throughout history who have insisted, as a result of first hand experience, that it can and often does make a difference.

Mrlexma,

Very well put.

JPK

quote:

It would makes no difference wat hunters like Harry manners have said and done.

There will always be people who believe a bigger bullet will make up for their bad bullet placement.

Saeed got it right!!--- a bad shot is a bad shot no matter the size of the bullet -- I cannot believe this is even being discussed ------------------again!!!

Somebody new is always going to come along and ask what's been asked before. I did. These decisions aren't that easy. This guy didn't come on and ask if a 375 was ok to miss with. What he may not be up on, and really what he's asking, is what happens when it IS a miss. And speaking of great hunters, whom of course we should ignore, Sten Cedergren said that for jumbo the 500 was the ticket, neccessary to penetrate thru the base of a big bull's trunk. The 375 or the 416 will do this, likely with ease. But if you miss the brain, well then, if you live, and have the gnads to close with big boys again, I suspect you'll be carrying a 500. I know if I had it to do over again I'd have bought a 500 instead of the 470. But the 470 with a full speed load behind a modern solid, esp a flatnose-better yet a NF or GS, will probably exit the same shot with lotsa energy. At this point I'm not doing any hand wringing over it and will take my 470 in to the thick stuff.

Now let's argue about bolt vs double. Tha 375 is only worth a shit if it's out of a fine English double rifle! :-)

Shooting standard weight bullets:

375 H&H 300g 2550 fps 4330 flb 109 mv 40 TKO
416 Rem 400g 2400 fps 5115 flb 137 mv 57 TKO
470 Cap 500g 2400 fps 6393 flb 171 mv 81 TKO

My point is the 470 is a bigger step up from the 416s than the 416 is from a 375 ... Wally Johnson did quite well with a 375 (his heavy rifle) so I agree with Saeed make the first one count.

Chuck

Damn, this stuff ain't that complicated. Cedergen was talking about using his 500 to knock them down not penetration.

The 375 has lots of penetration but it ain't for crap for knocking an elephant down. Manners proved that.

And 5000 ft-lb or more is needed to get close to knocking an elephant down. Which is how and why Taylor came up with his K.O. values (>55 for jumbo).

And even then there are no absolutes. 5000 ft-lb and more has a much, much better chance of knocking down or turning an elephant than the lesser cartridges.

One can try to convolute that fact of life a zillion different ways to show that their pet cartridge is good enough but it just ain't so.

I'm not against a 375 but ....

Wrong Will, Cedergren specifically described the close upward angle shot on big bulls and that's why he switched to a 500, to penetrate the muscle mass at the base of the trunk and make it up to the brain. It's not hard to figure, of course. The 375 doesn't dump it's energy well. With a slower 350 gr it'll dump it better. Manners does mention stopping a buff charge tho.

How does this get twisted around to sound as though missing the first or any shot is what's being advocated. The big stick - no less than 45 cal, no less than 500 gr at no less than just over 2000 fps - is exactly what's needed -in case you miss!

Clients really don't NEED anything bigger than a 375, unless the PH carries a 375, with the exception if you're hunting ele in thick bush, maybe. The PH is the big stick guy, clients should carry what they can shoot well. This is also why most clients should carry bolt guns if they don't commit to becoming proficient with a double. Buzz Charlton said fully 50%(or more?) failed to pull the second trigger on a double while under stress, they pulled the first a second time. Has everyone seen the stats on caliber choice of Americans hunting in TZ? It's so overwhelmingly 375 it's not even funny. It's just the likes of many of us that have to have big bore doubles. I read all the great writing and I want to be Big Bwana too, I admit it. I don't WANT to go on safari with anything but a big bore double, but it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

A good friend who sells alot of guns put it well, as it's been put before; " "Need" has nothing to do with it". Double/bolt, 450/400 to 500 and in between. Extractors/ejectors, rimmed/rimless.

Saeed does essentially have it right, he shoots everything with that 375/404, puts it where it belongs and they don't move. Guessing he has a hard on for Weatherby tho.

If I had to do things over and could only bring one gun to Africa it would be the make of double I have now, or a Heym, in 500/416 with a quick detach scope. Or, blasphemy, in 416 Rigby!

Really, Will and Mrlexma have it right.

There isn't a modern hunter who will intentionally take a shot he doesn't think will kill the elephant, that didn't at that moment didn't believe he would "make it count." Except perhaps in the most dire circumstances.

But NOBODY is perfect, even at the range, as Mrlexma points out - accurately. When your shot isn't perfect, and even the very most experienced of the pros weren't and aren't 100% successful with their brainshots, the more rifle and bullet your shooting, the more likely a tolerable or better outcome.

Tolerable or better is an indefinite, uncertain scale. No one getting hurt is tolerable when the ele is coming to kill you or one of your party.

Turning an elephant is, according to those who have done so or seen it done with a variety of rifles, dependant on bullet weight and diameter and velocity and "reliable" stoppers begin, according to those with enough experience to gauge this, when the bullet is .458" or larger, 480grs or heavier and with sufficient velocity sufficient to produce near 5000ft/lbs of energy.

Recall the Zimbabwe stats on Zim nationals hunting without PH's, available somehwere on the African Hunter website. Of hunters who encountered charges that resulted in reportable incidents, which I recall was defined as shooting an elephant that was not a target elephant, 100% of hunters shooting 375's were killed or seriously injured. And it wasn't until the cartidge got to the 450NE or 458wm shooting to that performance level that more than 50% escaped injury.

There were and still are a few 375 aficianados but the list of those who found the 375H&H wanting is huge. Here is just a brief list of modern or relatively modern and very prolific hunters who chose more rifle:

Sten Cedigren = 500NE
Ian Nychens = 450NE
Richard Harland = 458wm with specific disavowal of the 375
Rom Thomson = 458wm with a specific disavowal of the 375
Roger Whittall = 465H&H
Barry Duckworth = 500NE
Taylor = 450NE for "every day" use, 577NE for the thick stuff or follow up

I also know of several hunters who used a 375H&H for a portion of their carees, sometimes a long portion, who eventually decided that a heavier rifle was a better choice.

Would I hunt with a 375H&H, sure. Would I be more at ease with a larger cartridge, you bet. Especially when the bush is thick and the target tuskless, but then when you are after bulls you will run into cows as well and you can't count on bulls not to give you trouble either. Also, if you like your elephant hunting up close you will find that there is less time for that perfect shot as well.

JPK

JPK,

I'm almost certain Barry Duckworth uses a 505 Gibbs, I saw the rifle last fall. His son Neil uses a 470 Nitro and his other son Gary uses a 458 Lott. Two out of three Duckworths use bolt rifles. Since I was hunting with Gary and we were talking about hunting trophy elephant I asked him about using my Remington 375 H&H. Gary replied that he thought the .375 would be fine, but if I tried for a brain shot he would back me up.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Wrong Will, Cedergren specifically described the close upward angle shot on big bulls and that's why he switched to a 500, to penetrate the muscle mass at the base of the trunk and make it up to the brain. It's not hard to figure, of course. The 375 doesn't dump it's energy well. With a slower 350 gr it'll dump it better. Manners does mention stopping a buff charge tho.

How does this get twisted around to sound as though missing the first or any shot is what's being advocated. The big stick - no less than 45 cal, no less than 500 gr at no less than just over 2000 fps - is exactly what's needed -in case you miss!

Clients really don't NEED anything bigger than a 375, unless the PH carries a 375, with the exception if you're hunting ele in thick bush, maybe. The PH is the big stick guy, clients should carry what they can shoot well. This is also why most clients should carry bolt guns if they don't commit to becoming proficient with a double. Buzz Charlton said fully 50%(or more?) failed to pull the second trigger on a double while under stress, they pulled the first a second time. Has everyone seen the stats on caliber choice of Americans hunting in TZ? It's so overwhelmingly 375 it's not even funny. It's just the likes of many of us that have to have big bore doubles. I read all the great writing and I want to be Big Bwana too, I admit it. I don't WANT to go on safari with anything but a big bore double, but it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

A good friend who sells alot of guns put it well, as it's been put before; " "Need" has nothing to do with it". Double/bolt, 450/400 to 500 and in between. Extractors/ejectors, rimmed/rimless.

Saeed does essentially have it right, he shoots everything with that 375/404, puts it where it belongs and they don't move. Guessing he has a hard on for Weatherby tho.

If I had to do things over and could only bring one gun to Africa it would be the make of double I have now, or a Heym, in 500/416 with a quick detach scope. Or, blasphemy, in 416 Rigby!

First, I agree with Will that Cedegren was discussing stopping or knocking down ele's in the thick stuff.

Second, it is unwise for an inexperienced hunter, to assume he is going to begin his elephant hunting making perfect brain shots. Particularly if that brain shot is a frontal and especially if that brain shot comes up close since there is a strong likely hood that the elephant will be at least turning his head to look at the hunter, all the more so if that elephant decides to make a go at him. It is unwise for ANY hunter to assume he is going to make a perfect frontal when the elephant is coming. As mentioned in my earlier post, even the best and most experienced have blown it, and more than once.

Third, there is elephant hunting and there is elephant hunting. Maybe if you are going to stand off and shoot there is no need for a stopper. But if you are going hunt in the thick stuff or are going to get close in any vegetation, it becomes much more essential, more essential with each yard closer. 35yds is a damn long way away from an elephant, 50yds seems three times as far. The fun, and the trouble comes closer. But then you don't always get to determine when you find trouble around the next bush either.

Fourth, why in the world would you ever trust the PH to save your bacon? Even the very best old time or modern, retired, dead and gone or still breathing proffessional hunter has blown it on occasion. And he may not even have a shot when the need arises.

Fifth, as far as wistling through, my limited testing on dead elephant's heads, simulating the frontal brain shot, with the 375H&H and 300gr Woodleigh round nose solids at ~2450fps shows penetration no greater than and possibly less than that provided by 500gr Woodleigh solids from the 458wm at ~2145fps. Far less than that provided by either 450gr North Fork flat nose solids out of the 458wm at ~2190fps (tops in my experiments) or 500gr Woodleighs out of the 470NE at ~2150fps.

In fact, 375H&H penetration was only three or four inches greater than 525gr hard cast lead bullets at 1500fps, out of my 458wm but simulating the 45/70. So much for that penetration myth, maybe anyway, sample size is small. But at a very minimum calling the "common knowledge" into question.

No accounting for hunter F/U's, Ive made them myself. And if a fellow can shoot no more rifle than a 375H&H than that should be the rifle for him. But for anyone who is looking to hunt elephants and not merely bag an elephant, he ought to learn to deal with the recoil of a suitable big bore, 458wm (500grs at ~2100fps minimum) or larger.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
JPK,

I'm almost certain Barry Duckworth uses a 505 Gibbs, I saw the rifle last fall. His son Neil uses a 470 Nitro and his other son Gary uses a 458 Lott. Two out of three Duckworths use bolt rifles. Since I was hunting with Gary and we were talking about hunting trophy elephant I asked him about using my Remington 375 H&H. Gary replied that he thought the .375 would be fine, but if I tried for a brain shot he would back me up.

Scott King,

I was at a braei at the Duckworths and my recollection of the conversation about rifles is that I was told that Barry has a cherished 500NE, a Westley Richards if memory serves, that was his go to rifle. I don't recall any mention of the 505. Perhaps he has switched, perhaps my memory doesn't serve.

I am sure a 375H&H will serve you fine for your first elephant. Some keep on with it for more elephants or forever. My bet, especially if you hunt early season, or hunt in the Save, or hunt tuskless, is that you quickly come to a decision to carry a bigger rifle.

The Duckworths are tops. You will surely have a great hunt.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
JPK,

I'm almost certain Barry Duckworth uses a 505 Gibbs, I saw the rifle last fall. His son Neil uses a 470 Nitro and his other son Gary uses a 458 Lott. Two out of three Duckworths use bolt rifles. Since I was hunting with Gary and we were talking about hunting trophy elephant I asked him about using my Remington 375 H&H. Gary replied that he thought the .375 would be fine, but if I tried for a brain shot he would back me up.

Scott King,

I was at a braei at the Duckworths and my recollection of the conversation about rifles is that I was told that Barry has a cherished 500NE, a Westley Richards if memory serves, that was his go to rifle. I don't recall any mention of the 505. Perhaps he has switched, perhaps my memory doesn't serve.

I am sure a 375H&H will serve you fine for your first elephant. Some keep on with it for more elephants or forever. My bet, especially if you hunt early season, or hunt in the Save, or hunt tuskless, is that you quickly come to a decision to carry a bigger rifle.

The Duckworths are tops. You will surely have a great hunt.

JPK

JPK,

My memory probably serves me less than yours does for you. With Gary having told me what he did I expect to recieve my .458 win mag some time latter this summer. You and I briefly discussed on a different thread 450g loads in the .458 not to long ago.

Best Regards!

Anyone know the law about copyright infringement?

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Shooting standard weight bullets:

375 H&H 300g 2550 fps 4330 flb 109 mv 40 TKO
416 Rem 400g 2400 fps 5115 flb 137 mv 57 TKO
470 Cap 500g 2400 fps 6393 flb 171 mv 81 TKO

My point is the 470 is a bigger step up from the 416s than the 416 is from a 375 ... Wally Johnson did quite well with a 375 (his heavy rifle) so I agree with Saeed make the first one count.

Chuck

The Taylor Knockout is one of the most hyped inventions I have ever seen!

Animals do NOT read Taylors book, so have no understanding of this hyped up value.

Animals will die when a majot part of their anatomy is put out of action.

For immediate effect, one has to hit the CNS.

And believe me, a brained elephant would die just as quickly if hit by a 308 Winchester or a 700 Nitro Express.

quote:

The Taylor Knockout is one of the most hyped inventions I have ever seen!

Animals do NOT read Taylors book, so have no understanding of this hyped up value.

Animals will die when a majot part of their anatomy is put out of action.

For immediate effect, one has to hit the CNS.

And believe me, a brained elephant would die just as quickly if hit by a 308 Winchester or a 700 Nitro Express.

Absolutely!

I do not understand the armchair experts obsession with Knock down power, energy etc. I have seen several elephant head shot with large calibers (.458 and up), and if you miss the brain, its not dead. Its not even stunned most of the time, contrary to popular believe. I believe that most people will shoot a 375 (or a 9.3) better than a bigger bore, so would not hesitate to reccomend it. If headshots where the only shots that was needed, I would even have used it as a backup gun. I would feel 100% confident with it in a charge as well, bull or cow, tuskless or not.

Yes JPK you're right, old Sten was talking thick stuff with jumbo right up on him. Thru the front of the trunk, impact at the huge base and then up into the brain. Penetration. The 470 in his day was not up to the task, the 500 was, but he was shooting only Kynoch and I don't know what Kynoch bullets were like in the 50/60s or even if the ammo was that new. I think a NF or GS mono, and a TBSS would do this now. Remember, original/current Kynoch specs for the 470 was/is 2125 out of a 31" bbl! No kidding the 500 was better than the 470 back in the day. I'd like to chrono some new Kynoch 470.

I'm not going to take anything for granted. I conceded that ele in the thick stuff would be an exception.

PHs have to size up most client as they book 'em. But I wouldn't choose a PH who couldn't get my ass out of a jam - after I'd done all that's possible in the way of prep and execution - meaning I'd do my best NOT to provide them with a sorry excuse for a hunter (me). I'd never hunt DG with any PG that was not known to be an excellent DG PH.

I'm suprised that your 458wm Woodleighs significantly outperformed 470 Woodleighs.

I'm not tying to argue from field experience, only from alot preperation, study & listening. Personally I've had some great teachers, couple of them here. I'll let this alone.

Showbart,

No intention to get into a grueling no winners back and forth arguement here. But you might consider that the very best of today's and yesterday's elephant PH's make errors and bad shots. You can see Buzz miss a brain shot on a charging cow in his first DVD for instance, thankfully his shot, which did not drop the ele, did turn her. Just listen to his often repeated refrain in that first DVD when the featured hunter misses a brain shot, "...if the hunter had been using a rifle shooting a 500gr bullet this elephant would have dropped..." Or for more reinforcement, his comment when one charging cow goes down from a missed frontal brain shot, skidding a few yards ahead of the camera, "...fortunately, the hunter was using a 500NE which shoots a 570gr bullet..."

BTW, if similar 500gr round nose solids from a 458wm and a 470 are shooting at the same velocity, you should expect the 458wm to provide graeter penetration. But my experiements point out that the flat nose North Forks from my 458wm at 2190fps far out penetrate the 500gr Woodleighs from either the 458wm or the 470 at ~2150fpsish, and even when the 500's from the 470 are running ~2250fps.

If Cedegren where concerned only with penetration, he wouldn't have chosen the 500NE and he wouldn't have limited his choice to a double rifle. He was concerned with stopping the elephant, best done with a perfect brainshot. Absent that perfect brainshot, best done with the largest calibre rifle he could carry and shoot well. Like his 500NE.

JPK