quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Shooting standard weight bullets:

375 H&H 300g 2550 fps 4330 flb 109 mv 40 TKO
416 Rem 400g 2400 fps 5115 flb 137 mv 57 TKO
470 Cap 500g 2400 fps 6393 flb 171 mv 81 TKO

My point is the 470 is a bigger step up from the 416s than the 416 is from a 375 ... Wally Johnson did quite well with a 375 (his heavy rifle) so I agree with Saeed make the first one count.

Chuck

The Taylor Knockout is one of the most hyped inventions I have ever seen!

Animals do NOT read Taylors book, so have no understanding of this hyped up value.

Animals will die when a majot part of their anatomy is put out of action.

For immediate effect, one has to hit the CNS.

And believe me, a brained elephant would die just as quickly if hit by a 308 Winchester or a 700 Nitro Express.

This post is patently erroneous. This line in particular, "For immediate effect, one has to hit the CNS."

Two common, if unreliable, immediate effects on elephants of close misses of the brain with larger bore rifles are turned charges and dropped elephants.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Anyone know the law about copyright infringement?

Will,

They say that immitation is the surest form of flattery.

They also say that for a lesson to sink home someone needs to hear it three times.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Shooting standard weight bullets:

375 H&H 300g 2550 fps 4330 flb 109 mv 40 TKO
416 Rem 400g 2400 fps 5115 flb 137 mv 57 TKO
470 Cap 500g 2400 fps 6393 flb 171 mv 81 TKO

My point is the 470 is a bigger step up from the 416s than the 416 is from a 375 ... Wally Johnson did quite well with a 375 (his heavy rifle) so I agree with Saeed make the first one count.

Chuck

Hello Chuck,

I do not thank you before that I facilitate your table power differences between the 375 H & H, 416 Rigby, and 470
I think that this difference in this game hunter's life, and I am still of the opinion that the 375 best and leave it for antelope really do not play with dangerous animals. For this task of caliber 416 onwards.

Thanks and regards,

Sincerely,

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Shooting standard weight bullets:

375 H&H 300g 2550 fps 4330 flb 109 mv 40 TKO
416 Rem 400g 2400 fps 5115 flb 137 mv 57 TKO
470 Cap 500g 2400 fps 6393 flb 171 mv 81 TKO

My point is the 470 is a bigger step up from the 416s than the 416 is from a 375 ... Wally Johnson did quite well with a 375 (his heavy rifle) so I agree with Saeed make the first one count.

Chuck

The Taylor Knockout is one of the most hyped inventions I have ever seen!

Animals do NOT read Taylors book, so have no understanding of this hyped up value.

Animals will die when a majot part of their anatomy is put out of action.

For immediate effect, one has to hit the CNS.

And believe me, a brained elephant would die just as quickly if hit by a 308 Winchester or a 700 Nitro Express.

Saeed,

I categorically disagree with all of this.

Though, I'm not sure what categorically means.

Johan Caliz once told a client that the .375 was a excellent caliber for those that can shoot well..I agree with that 100%...

Too many folks think in terms of missing or wounding or what if, those circumstances apply to the 600 N.E. also and to the same extent IMO.

The size of the hole in the brain doesn't make a lot of difference IMO, just as long as its there and if you miss the brain, they you missed the brain and I don't buy that big bores knock them out, sometimes they may, other times they may not...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Johan Caliz once told a client that the .375 was a excellent caliber for those that can shoot well..I agree with that 100%...

Too many folks think in terms of missing or wounding or what if, those circumstances apply to the 600 N.E. also and to the same extent IMO.

The size of the hole in the brain doesn't make a lot of difference IMO, just as long as its there and if you miss the brain, they you missed the brain and I don't buy that big bores knock them out, sometimes they may, other times they may not...

Ray,

Now that I know what categorically means, I also categorically disagree with all of this. Well, most of it.

Well, if there is no knock-out factor then I need to reconsider why the tuskless I shot last year fell over backwards...since I narrowly missed the brain shot! I'm glad I shot her again because she might have gotten mad when we cut her up.

So I compassionately but categorically (just wanted to use that word) disagree with several of these posts as well.

Sorry to have stirred things up if I did, particularly when I'm probably having my CZ 550 rebarreled to 500 Jeff next winter after much advice from Ray, Phil Lozanno, Ed Plummer at AHR and others (thanks all). The recoil on my 375 is so light as to be dissappointing but it shoots very well when I do my part. I don't think I'll have trouble shooting a 500 Jeff and those light 535g bullets should be hell on elk until I get to Africa!

Regards to all,



Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Sorry to have stirred things up if I did, particularly when I'm probably having my CZ 550 rebarreled to 500 Jeff next winter after much advice from Ray, Phil Lozanno, Ed Plummer at AHR and others (thanks all). The recoil on my 375 is so light as to be dissappointing but it shoots very well when I do my part. I don't think I'll have trouble shooting a 500 Jeff and those light 535g bullets should be hell on elk until I get to Africa!

Regards to all,



Chuck

One question Chuck,

I have a 550 Magnum rifle Cz in HH 375 Magnum, how much it costs to recalibrate said another caliber rifle-416, 500-as you have done?.

Thank you,

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Anyone know the law about copyright infringement?

Don't worry, Bill. Pondoro is dead and he left no heirs besides you.

Hi Oscar, if I wanted to go to a 470 Capstick or 458 Lott really only the cost of the barrel and a few hundred dollars more, so around $500 U.S. Going to a 500 Jeffery will be more expensive due to the fact that It will probably be changed to a single stack magazine. I'm guessing it will cost me about $1200 U.S. but I'm famous for underestimating cost lol. I'm also seriously considering the .495 A-Square which pretty much replicates the 500 Jeffery performance with less gunsmithing work to do and cheaper and easier to find cases (it's based on the .460 Weatherby Magnum case).

Chuck

QUOTE] Well, if there is no knock-out factor then I need to reconsider why the tuskless I shot last year fell over backwards...since I narrowly missed the brain shot![/QUOTE]

Yukon, do you mean your shot "knocked" her back, or just that the hind legs collapsed first? If you meant the legs collapsed, this SOMETIMES happen with narrowly missed brain shots, (mostly on cows), and even with smaller calibers. This can never be relied upon, and is like relying on standard cup and core expanding bullets on shots on buff. They also SOMETIMES work. The only SURE way is to hit the CNS directly, and for that a easier shooting, more accurate gun (like a scoped .375) might be preferable.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Hi Oscar, if I wanted to go to a 470 Capstick or 458 Lott really only the cost of the barrel and a few hundred dollars more, so around $500 U.S. Going to a 500 Jeffery will be more expensive due to the fact that It will probably be changed to a single stack magazine. I'm guessing it will cost me about $1200 U.S. but I'm famous for underestimating cost lol. I'm also seriously considering the .495 A-Square which pretty much replicates the 500 Jeffery performance with less gunsmithing work to do and cheaper and easier to find cases (it's based on the .460 Weatherby Magnum case).

Chuck

Thanks again Chuck:

Forgive me for being so heavy, but it interests me much everything that has to do with hunting weapons dangerous, but that is only because I do not have money to enjoy these luxuries jejeje.

I hope that when you have finished your change of gauge put your photos to delight in the new weapon.

Thank you and good luck,

Regards,

Oscar.

Karl, the back legs collapsed, the trunk flew straight up...in other words a classic brain shot reaction and all the PHs at Charlton McCallum watched it on video and said it looked like a classic brain shot...until I continued shooting. She wasn't dead and the bullet passed just ahead of the brain on a quartering to shot (determined later by tracing the bullet path) but it definitely knocked her out or stunned her briefly. In fact, the PH commented immediately that she was dead after the first shot.

I'm just commenting on the statement that elephants don't respond to missed brain shots. They do. 500 Grains has missed a number of brain shots by his own account yet they were knocked out due to using large caliber rifles. Of course, any reading of classic safari material will reveal a number of elephants that were knocked out but got back up...some of them after having their tails cut off!

I have shot six cows and a bull elephant with a .375, seemed to work fine. I did read on this forum that a PH in Botswana had 90% of his clients blow the brain shot on elephants. With that kind of record maybe its time to rethink the heart shot.

quote:

Johan Caliz once told a client that the .375 was a excellent caliber for those that can shoot well..I agree with that 100%...

Words of wisdom indeed

Now, instead of going for a bigger caliber to make up for your bad shooting, practice more to improve your shooting

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Anyone know the law about copyright infringement?

Don't worry, Bill. Pondoro is dead and he left no heirs besides you.

This one got me laughing my tail off!! Congrats Mrlexma!!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Johan Caliz once told a client that the .375 was a excellent caliber for those that can shoot well..I agree with that 100%...

Too many folks think in terms of missing or wounding or what if, those circumstances apply to the 600 N.E. also and to the same extent IMO.

The size of the hole in the brain doesn't make a lot of difference IMO, just as long as its there and if you miss the brain, they you missed the brain and I don't buy that big bores knock them out, sometimes they may, other times they may not...

Ray, given your grand elephant experience, nothing in your post means, uh, hmm, uh, well I'll mind Will's admonition and be polite and pass on this comment.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Anyone know the law about copyright infringement?

Don't worry, Bill. Pondoro is dead and he left no heirs besides you.

This one got me laughing my tail off!! Congrats Mrlexma!!

JPK

I fail to see the humor in this.

Steffen-9.3
Don't be dick-if you intend to hunt elephant buy an elephant rifle,which the 375 is not.

The .375 H&H magnum is fine for elephant hunting. Too many thousands of elephant have been taken with it to say it isn't. Penetration and shot placement are what counts. Ask Ann from Aspen Hills Adventures about the charging cow elephant she dropped at about 5 yards with her .375 H&H. I think the problem is that when you are 5 yards away, almost anyone I would think, would prefer a larger rifle. I would prefer something along the lines of a .470 N.E. or larger. I do admit that I would be making up for my stress induced poor shot placement with the bigger gun.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
The .375 H&H magnum is fine for elephant hunting. Too many thousands of elephant have been taken with it to say it isn't. Penetration and shot placement are what counts. Ask Ann from Aspen Hills Adventures about the charging cow elephant she dropped at about 5 yards with her .375 H&H. I think the problem is that when you are 5 yards away, almost anyone I would think, would prefer a larger rifle. I would prefer something along the lines of a .470 N.E. or larger. I do admit that I would be making up for my stress induced poor shot placement with the bigger gun.

Thanks,

jfm

I categorically disagree with every bit of this.

Just for grins, the cow wasn't 5 yards away and it wasn't charging. But just irrelevant details I guess.

My point, Will, was that Ann brained the cow and it dropped like a rock. Charge or no charge. Was I off a little on yardage? What was it, three yards, ten yards, twenty yards? Forget about all the elephant that have been killed with the .375 H&H as that means nothing. Do you categorically disagree with my preference in rifle selection in a charge situation also? A lot of elephant have been stopped with .470 Nitro Express or larger. I guess you know better. You're pretty quick to jump all over someone to point out they're wrong and then add your little smiley faces.
Have a pleasant day.

jfm

jfm,

The 375 H&H has an excellent reputation for excellent penetration and indeed it should as its penetration index is high, and higher than the 458/470/etc. It has also accounted for an untold number of elephant. And so has the 470 NE. My preference, though, would be the 470.

You should have seen Will before he made a New Year's resolution to show his softer side.

My preference runs a bit higher to the 500 nitro or Jeffery level. The Jeffery in particular draws some pretty sterling comments from guys like Sanchez-Arino and Taylor.

In summary, the 375 H & H Magnum is not best suited to hunt elephant, so it is best to buy a gun's caliber 416 Rigby onwards, but is necessary in my view quite practicing with the weapon, first to adapt its decrease (in these strong arms) and second as throughout weapon, know the ammunition with which brings together better. Point and order.

Regards,

Oscar

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
=

The 375 has lots of penetration but it ain't for crap for knocking an elephant down. Manners proved that.

I have seen it in person - .375 H&H solid to the head of an elephant, but a little high for the brain, and the elephant runs off full speed as if completely unharmed. And never recovered.

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
My point, Will, was that Ann brained the cow and it dropped like a rock.

Absolutely. A .308 works too.

It's when the brain is missed the caliber starts becoming more important.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
It's when the brain is missed the caliber starts becoming more important.

That pretty much sums it up. Don't read any more into it than that.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
I've always thought it a bit disingenuous to take the examples of men like Manners, Bell, etc. to prove a point such as this. I think the more experience a person has, the more that argument becomes valid but the inverse is also true. Because most of us don't get that kind of experience, a big bore becomes an appealing option if the person can handle the increased weight and power. Those who guide for elephants with a 375 are few and far between. Those who use it on tuskless on a regular basis...can't think of any.

Or you could come at it from a different angle...for every small bore elephant hunter you name, I will give you several big bore hunters...deceased, contemporary, AR members, whatever!

..

Tho I,m not as up on it as Y K . I view this debate in a simular vien as Brian does ,.
Considering the danger and takeing men like Pondoro,s recommendation into place ..the larger caliber hits the heavier blow ., While a professional may hunt elephant with a small bore , a professional tight rope walker may not use a harness and saftey line ,.,. my top 2 choices would be #1 CZ 550 , in 500 A-Sq. , # 2 CZ 550 in 458 Lott ., 6 rounds of 450 gr flat point solids @ 2400 fps would be pretty comforting but 4 rounds of 570 gr flat point solids @ the same speed would be pretty great also ....,.,

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Considering the danger and takeing men like Pondoro,s recommendation into place ..the larger caliber hits the heavier blow .

but the very same man recommends a .375 for a allround rifle if you expect to hunt a wide range of animals and a occational DG hunt
and he has taken in considersation that his reader has probably never been in africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Considering the danger and takeing men like Pondoro,s recommendation into place ..the larger caliber hits the heavier blow .

but the very same man recommends a .375 for a allround rifle if you expect to hunt a wide range of animals and a occational DG hunt
and he has taken in considersation that his reader has probably never been in africa.

Yes, this is the case, but Taylor's primary elephant rifles were in 450 No2 and the 465H&H, either a far cry from the 375H&H. Moreover he tells us that he always had a 577 or 600 along for the thick stuff or follow up.

And Taylor was right regarding the 375H&H too, if you are going to hunt AN elephant, especially as an adjunct to a long full bag safari, nothing wrong with the 375H&H. But when you begin to talk about hunting elephants, you need to be talking about big bores.

JPK

quote:

I have seen it in person - .375 H&H solid to the head of an elephant, but a little high for the brain, and the elephant runs off full speed as if completely unharmed. And never recovered.

500 grains,

This also happened to a good friend of mine, except being an ex marine, he brained it going away quartering from the rear with peep sight at 75 yards.

I guess a target moving AWAY from you is easier to hit than one moving TOWARD you!

Andy

I have asked all the PH'a that I have hunted with the same question, and they all agree that the .375 H&H Magnum is a very fine elephant cartridge. Some even prefer it over the .458 Win. Mag. since the former penitrates better. Use the gun you feel comfortable with, and good things will happen.

quote:

he brained it going away quartering from the rear with peep sight at 75 yards.

The old, reliable, standby anecdote that always proves everything beyond all doubt.

quote:

Originally posted by Bo Rich:
I have asked all the PH'a that I have hunted with the same question, and they all agree that the .375 H&H Magnum is a very fine elephant cartridge. Some even prefer it over the .458 Win. Mag. since the former penitrates better. Use the gun you feel comfortable with, and good things will happen.

Except for the old guys, I seriously doubt that many, much less "all PH's" have that much experience at actually killing elephant.

I have been lucky to have hunted with some PH's that have been around the block more than a few times, and not a single one uses a 375!

quote:

I have been lucky to have hunted with some PH's that have been around the block more than a few times, and not a single one uses a 375!

The reason for this Bill, is that we do not shoot the first shot, and are just as likely to have to shoot body shots as brain shots. Once again, on a charging animal I personally would be very comfortable with a .375, either client or as PH. But for body shots, I like a bigger hole, thats why I prefer my .450 Rigby.

quote:

I have seen it in person - .375 H&H solid to the head of an elephant, but a little high for the brain, and the elephant runs off full speed as if completely unharmed. And never recovered.

I have seen the same with a .450 Rigby on a cow. (frontal brain shot, placed too high by client) Does that now make the .450 inadequate as well? BTW, I have seen a elephant bull take 12 shots into the head from the following variety: 600NE, 577NE and 500NE, without him even stumbling. All shots, ecept the last 1 missed the brain. A miss is as good as a mile, Im afraid, as it CANNOT be RELIED upon to knock an elephant down or unconcious.

Yes Will, you are correct. Most of the PH's I have been with did't carry a .375 for a stopper. But, they all agreed that the .375 was a good gun for their hunter to use for elephant.

quote:

The reason for this Bill, is that we do not shoot the first shot

I quite agree. Nothing against PH's as they have the opportunity to become well-experienced with jumbo.

And, no, there are no guarantees about knocking down an elephant no matter what is used, but, again, 5000 ft-lb is going to get it done much more reliably and repeatedly than any 375.

I would some day like to brain an elephant with one of my 9.3x62s but I will try my best to have one of my heavy rifles close by.