quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

Right back at you. You describe many hunters I have conversed with as well as anti-hunters. :-)

So, hunters put their postings in the forums and websites you and your friends frequent, disrupt the discussions, post insults and challenges to your lifestyle, try to raise money and "political awareness" to stop your hobbies and change your behavior, and try to convince you to become a meat eater and hunter?
I seriously doubt that.

Regarding your Twitter account: You are incorrect. You have considerable information on there about yourself, lifestyle, relationships, ect., including considerable material indicating your views. And Twitter isn't the only place you have an account and post such things. So, yes, we know exactly who you are, what you believe, what views you support, etc., etc., etc.

Really? Considering I very rarely post on Twitter anymore I doubt it. Any hunting related sharing is either old or shared for others to read. I have endorsed nothing.

Yes I have a Facebook account too and all I share on there is silly quotes and pics. Again I very rarely share anything else.

And quite frankly if you really believe either of these sites gives you much indication of who I am you are truly wrong. Unlike most I do not share my private life, accomplishments, political views etc.

As for hunters sharing pics, yep they crop up on my timeline and yep I see hunters being just as offensive as antis can be. You only have to look here for that truth to shine. I have never insulted anyone or been disrespectful here. Pity it cannot be said the same for some of those here.

I have also never attacked anyone personally or felt the need to go rooting around in their face books or Twitter. I'm intelligent enough to know that forums and social media are only a very slight indication of who anyone is.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
http://us.blastingnews.com/opi...m-lose-00768989.html

http://us.blastingnews.com/opi...vation-00773191.html

I revisited both of Ms. Burn's articles. Unlike a lot of other anti-hunters, she doesn't viciously attack ethical and sustainable hunting practices.

In retrospect, it was the article authored by Tom Bawden and entitled "More than 20,000 trophy hunters descend on Las Vegas to join 'pay to slay' auctions" that ruffled my feathers.

Ms. Burn's articles should have been entitled "Why Hunters are Getting Their Butts Kicked in the Court of Public Opinion - An Anti-Hunters Perspective".

Although Ms. Burn is anti-hunting, she does highlight our Achilles heels.

For example:

- Hunters, in general, are very slow to recognize and accept the fight they are in ................

- Their inability to see they need to start speaking out on the issues, not emotions, related to animal conservation and how they are contributing.

- Whilst hunters remain in the majority silent, anti-hunters are making full use of the hunting communities' lack of empathy to persuade the 60% of the population that is undecided on these issues: that hunting is nothing but cruel and hunters little more than murderers. This is a bandwagon the media, in general, has jumped upon resulting in inaccurate, biased reporting which has little to do with conservation and more to do with a witch hunt.

- It is now time the community realized that hunting is not a God given right and that when something is as highly emotive an issue as hunting is, then it needs to be justified and proved to be done for the right reasons. Silence is not the friend of the hunter, it is losing the battle.

quote:

- It is now time the community realized that hunting is not a God given right and that when something is as highly emotive an issue as hunting is, then it needs to be justified and proved to be done for the right reasons. Silence is not the friend of the hunter, it is losing the battle.

Every time this idiot opens her mouth, she prove my point!

So hunting is not a God given right, but YOU were appointed by God to criticize and try to stop anyone who does anything YOU do not like??

Sounds just like par for the course.

A perfect definition of stupidity, claiming "freedom of speech" as far as "I" can say whatever I want, but you are not.

"I" can do whatever I want, but you cannot if I don't like it!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

- It is now time the community realized that hunting is not a God given right and that when something is as highly emotive an issue as hunting is, then it needs to be justified and proved to be done for the right reasons. Silence is not the friend of the hunter, it is losing the battle.

Every time this idiot opens her mouth, she prove my point!

So hunting is not a God given right, but YOU were appointed by God to criticize and try to stop anyone who does anything YOU do not like??

Sounds just like par for the course.

A perfect definition of stupidity, claiming "freedom of speech" as far as "I" can say whatever I want, but you are not.

"I" can do whatever I want, but you cannot if I don't like it!

Since I don't believe in God and quite clearly stated that was the case, nothing is a god given right. All the god stuff was sarcasm at your feeble attempts to question my rights but not your own!
Is it hard work being as obtuse as you are?

Care to answer my question relevant to this discussion on hunting yet?

Oh and Saeed take a look at yourself. You can hunt but people cannot object or campaign against you doing that. Hypocrite, much lolol !!

quote:

Oh and Saeed take a look at yourself. You can hunt but people cannot object or campaign against you doing that. Hypocrite, much lolol !!

Show me ONE instant of me, or any of my friends here, who are "campaigning" against anything YOU do?

So now being a busybody is called "campaigning" is it?


Get a life!

And leave the rest of the world to enjoy themselves!
More typical liberal bullshit!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Oh and Saeed take a look at yourself. You can hunt but people cannot object or campaign against you doing that. Hypocrite, much lolol !!

Show me ONE instant of me, or any of my friends here, who are "campaigning" against anything YOU do?


So now being a busybody is called "campaigning" is it?


Get a life!

And leave the rest of the world to enjoy themselves!
More typical liberal bullshit!

You campaign against poaching don't you?
Now absolutely rightly so in my opinion BUT others won't agree with it.


Unfortunately, whether you are right or wrong to hunt people have the right to oppose and campaign against it. You can't change that, never will. All you can do is show the people that oppose you that you are right and they are wrong.

You have had every opportunity to contribute to the discussion in a positive manner but for some reason instead of choosing to share what I'm sure is a vast knowledge of conservation with me you have chosen to bitch and barb.

i have said repeatedly since I started posting here that you have every right to hunt whilst it is still legal and done within the rules that govern. And if you cared to check info other than where I live or work or what family I have you would see that I have not campaigned to stop hunting in years.

Edited to add - you and your friends 'campaign' here all the time to stop antis being able to speak out and voice their opinions. Other ways you may campaign against what I do I have no idea of. This is a huntin forum so I do not see you discussing much else. For all I and you know you could strongly object to some activity I partake in. Without further discourse we will never know.

If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

She is too stupid to understand this very simple fact.

Just like every idiot like her!

Some people have difficulty in distinguishing the difference between hunting and poaching and appear to classify them as one and the same.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

I didn't actually mean here to be fair. I meant in general. People aren't allowed an opinion that differs to Saeed.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Some people have difficulty in distinguishing the difference between hunting and poaching and appear to classify them as one and the same.

They do, you're right. Part of the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

I didn't actually mean here to be fair. I meant in general. People aren't allowed an opinion that differs to Saeed.

To be fair if that was true there would be vastly different rules on this very relaxed forum..
Saeed is no fool, he's been around and has seen a lot of what is out there unlike your average sheeple..

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

I didn't actually mean here to be fair. I meant in general. People aren't allowed an opinion that differs to Saeed.

To be fair if that was true there would be vastly different rules on this very relaxed forum..
Saeed is no fool, he's been around and has seen a lot of what is out there unlike your average sheeple..

In order to keep this forum running Saeed of course allows free speech. That however does not mean he doesn't oppose opinions he doesn't share. All well and good but he also gives off the impression in many posts I have read of his that he does not like others having opinions that differ to his.

Kind of understandable with some of the garbage that flows from so many anti's keyboards

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

I didn't actually mean here to be fair. I meant in general. People aren't allowed an opinion that differs to Saeed.

To be fair if that was true there would be vastly different rules on this very relaxed forum..
Saeed is no fool, he's been around and has seen a lot of what is out there unlike your average sheeple..

In order to keep this forum running Saeed of course allows free speech. That however does not mean he doesn't oppose opinions he doesn't share. All well and good but he also gives off the impression in many posts I have read of his that he does not like others having opinions that differ to his.

You mean like LionAid.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Some people have difficulty in distinguishing the difference between hunting and poaching and appear to classify them as one and the same.

They do, you're right. Part of the problem.

That post exchange sums up a major portion of "the problem" to be honest and is a chink in your side's armor Jo.

Don't you think people should become educated on the topic before railing against it???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Some people have difficulty in distinguishing the difference between hunting and poaching and appear to classify them as one and the same.

They do, you're right. Part of the problem.

That post exchange sums up a major portion of "the problem" to be honest and is a chink in your side's armor Jo.

Don't you think people should become educated on the topic before railing against it???

Nope. They really have no interest in learning Lane. I have boxed so many in with incontrovertible facts and logic and at the end of the day, they either resort to insults and name calling or take their toys and go home.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

I didn't actually mean here to be fair. I meant in general. People aren't allowed an opinion that differs to Saeed.

This is not true. We moderate here with a very light touch and you have to behave very badly in order to get banned. People argue and disagree with him all the time and they are still here. You're still here, so what does that tell you?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

I didn't actually mean here to be fair. I meant in general. People aren't allowed an opinion that differs to Saeed.

To be fair if that was true there would be vastly different rules on this very relaxed forum..
Saeed is no fool, he's been around and has seen a lot of what is out there unlike your average sheeple..

In order to keep this forum running Saeed of course allows free speech. That however does not mean he doesn't oppose opinions he doesn't share. All well and good but he also gives off the impression in many posts I have read of his that he does not like others having opinions that differ to his.

You mean like LionAid.

Absolutely

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Some people have difficulty in distinguishing the difference between hunting and poaching and appear to classify them as one and the same.

They do, you're right. Part of the problem.

That post exchange sums up a major portion of "the problem" to be honest and is a chink in your side's armor Jo.

Don't you think people should become educated on the topic before railing against it???

Not my armour. I recognise the difference between poaching and hunting. But yes the chink in many an antis armour and absolutely they should but as I have said before in this forum the info isn't out there for one reason or another.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

I didn't actually mean here to be fair. I meant in general. People aren't allowed an opinion that differs to Saeed.

This is not true. We moderate here with a very light touch and you have to behave very badly in order to get banned. People argue and disagree with him all the time and they are still here. You're still here, so what does that tell you?

It tells me that you are missing my point entirely. However, Saeed isn't why I come here, I learn nothing from Saeed so it doesn't really matter.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
If Saaed wanted to campaign to stop you from what you are saying on AR that would be quite a simple thing for him to do. He is much more reasonable than most anti hunting associations..

I didn't actually mean here to be fair. I meant in general. People aren't allowed an opinion that differs to Saeed.

To be fair if that was true there would be vastly different rules on this very relaxed forum..
Saeed is no fool, he's been around and has seen a lot of what is out there unlike your average sheeple..

In order to keep this forum running Saeed of course allows free speech. That however does not mean he doesn't oppose opinions he doesn't share. All well and good but he also gives off the impression in many posts I have read of his that he does not like others having opinions that differ to his.

You mean like LionAid.

You hit the nail right on the head Andrew!

Lionaid is a perfect example of their stupidity!

I would like to know how much they actually do for conservation!

One BIG FAT ZERO!

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
It tells me that you are missing my point entirely. However, Saeed isn't why I come here, I learn nothing from Saeed so it doesn't really matter.

Clarify please.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
It tells me that you are missing my point entirely. However, Saeed isn't why I come here, I learn nothing from Saeed so it doesn't really matter.

Clarify please.

Not sure she understand it herself

She does better at lionaid - same mentality, which requires an IQ of 10

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
It tells me that you are missing my point entirely. However, Saeed isn't why I come here, I learn nothing from Saeed so it doesn't really matter.

Clarify please.

I'll try but it may be a bit long winded so I'll address it when I get home from work. My breaks not long enough.

Whitworth,

I wasn't suggesting for one minute that Saeed or other moderators here stop people from sharing their opinions on these forums at all. As you have pointed out if that were the case I would suspect I would have been one of the first banned from here.

I was, however, saying that Saeed will accept no ones opinion but his own. I read these forums on a regular basis and anyone who does not agree with him is challenged in a berating manner which quite often has nothing to do with the subject being discussed. Either that or he just does not reply at all. His perogative of course but it is not one rule for one and one rule for another in this world. Both Saeed and I have every right to voice our opinions, campaign and do what we feel is best.

I have never ever once in all my time here said you (generic) cannot hunt or in actual fact that you should stop hunting. I have questioned hunting and hunting as a conservation tool but never once have I presumed to tell you what to do. I have however been told by Saeed that I should stop 'campaigning', bearing in mind I haven't actually campaigned against hunting in around two years.

Saeed needs to consider that whilst he may enjoy hunting and he has every right to do so I enjoy learning about hunting and poaching and if that means questioning hunting then so be it. I am just as entitled to do that as he is to hunt.

All this prior is not to mention the childlike insults Saeed throws around like confetti. I again suspect should I have behaved in the manner he does towards me I would at best have been warned, worst banned.

And before you say it, yes I am aware that there are anti-hunters out there who have said much worse with regards to hunters and I personally find that appalling. But what needs to be recognised here is that I am not a stereotypical anti-hunter and I have not come here and beahved with anything other than respect for everyone. To be quite clear I have never behaved in the manner some antis behave anywhere.

Saeed, however, with the upmost respect does behave in the stereotypical manner that most people hold about hunters. His 'i like hunting, you cant object,, petty name calling and God complex is your worst enemy. He is no poster boy for hunting and should you decide to send a spokesperson out into the public for hunting please do not send him. Saeed does your community no favours and has amassed himself quite the reputation for being a 'typical hunter'. More people read here than you would think and whilst you have every right to speak as you wish, you may want to think twice as your comments will and do appear elsewhere.

I hope this clarifies things a little for you. Quite frankly though, my opinion of Saeed is irrelevant, just as is his of myself. The important issue for me is conservation, whilst the important issue for Saeed is his unsuccessful attempts to insult.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jolouburn:
It tells me that you are missing my point entirely. However, Saeed isn't why I come here, I learn nothing from Saeed so it doesn't really matter.

Clarify please.

jolouburn,

You will need to address LionAid and the emotive funding issue. And the fact that they are not qualified or represented anywhere in Africa. They have not addressed or prepared to compensate communities and feel qualified to deny expert and Government opinion.

Fact is that they have not saved one Lion or any other specie and rely on others for their propaganda.

Where as I can prove in one simple project the regeneration of land and wildlife and a habitat for Lion where they were previously wiped out.

These opportunities and many more are available across Africa but we do not see the participation by you and others? We are simply shouted down and threatened by folks who have little idea of Africa, its culture or conservation.

One of the Lion Aid followers threatened my family and was going to paste my son's face on a site where as it was indicated they would do him harm. For fuck sake he was simply on holiday and helping out with his dad's communal project.

I will continue to sell and hunt Lion here irrespective of outside clauses and regulations and there is nothing that LionAid can do about it. Unless they or you want to buy me out?

I am open to bids and can hand over the keys for the whole project tomorrow. PM (private message) me.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jolouburn:
It tells me that you are missing my point entirely. However, Saeed isn't why I come here, I learn nothing from Saeed so it doesn't really matter.

Clarify please.

jolouburn,

You will need to address LionAid and the emotive funding issue. And the fact that they are not qualified or represented anywhere in Africa. They have not addressed or prepared to compensate communities and feel qualified to deny expert and Government opinion.

Fact is that they have not saved one Lion or any other specie and rely on others for their propaganda.

Where as I can prove in one simple project the regeneration of land and wildlife and a habitat for Lion where they were previously wiped out.

These opportunities and many more are available across Africa but we do not see the participation by you and others? We are simply shouted down and threatened by folks who have little idea of Africa, its culture or conservation.

One of the Lion Aid followers threatened my family and was going to paste my son's face on a site where as it was indicated they would do him harm. For fuck sake he was simply on holiday and helping out with his dad's communal project.

I will continue to sell and hunt Lion here irrespective of outside clauses and regulations and there is nothing that LionAid can do about it. Unless they or you want to buy me out?

I am open to bids and can hand over the keys for the whole project tomorrow. PM (private message) me.

Sounds like just normal operating procedure for these lot.

This is actually nothing but criminal, threatening others who do far more good than they could ever dream of.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jolouburn:
It tells me that you are missing my point entirely. However, Saeed isn't why I come here, I learn nothing from Saeed so it doesn't really matter.

Clarify please.

jolouburn,

You will need to address LionAid and the emotive funding issue. And the fact that they are not qualified or represented anywhere in Africa. They have not addressed or prepared to compensate communities and feel qualified to deny expert and Government opinion.

Fact is that they have not saved one Lion or any other specie and rely on others for their propaganda.

Where as I can prove in one simple project the regeneration of land and wildlife and a habitat for Lion where they were previously wiped out.

These opportunities and many more are available across Africa but we do not see the participation by you and others? We are simply shouted down and threatened by folks who have little idea of Africa, its culture or conservation.

One of the Lion Aid followers threatened my family and was going to paste my son's face on a site where as it was indicated they would do him harm. For fuck sake he was simply on holiday and helping out with his dad's communal project.

I will continue to sell and hunt Lion here irrespective of outside clauses and regulations and there is nothing that LionAid can do about it. Unless they or you want to buy me out?

I am open to bids and can hand over the keys for the whole project tomorrow. PM (private message) me.

Sounds like just normal operating procedure for these lot.

This is actually nothing but criminal, threatening others who do far more good than they could ever dream of.

Fairgame and Saeed,

There is absolutely nothing which could be classed as normal regarding the threats that were made to yourself and your family and people from the hunting community. This is abhorrent behaviour and as I have said many times do not support it any way. I, however, cannot control those who make these threats, I can only say how sorry I am that they were made.

With regards to Lion Aid, I can only reiterate what I have said about them many times. I have no affiliation with them and have no part in their fund raising or campaigning. I did hold an auction a few years ago to raise funds for them but since then have done nothing.

It would be pretty futile me saying anything to Lion Aid as I have not conversed with them for around a year, maybe more. I think that even if I did address the 'emotive anti hunting argument' with them I would be shut down as you are.

Therefore I think this has to be addressed publicly and not through anti hunting orgs. I have as you saw addressed this slightly already in the second of the two articles I wrote but also am in the preparation and research stage for a follow up article based on the emotive reaction.

I have learnt over the years to choose my battles well and when I have chosen my battle to go down the right channels to fight it. For example I chose to come here a few years ago and engage directly with those that hunt, if I had not done so I would not have learnt the things I have and would more than likely not had my opinion changed in any way.

Obviously, Lion Aid cannot be defended. The threats cannot be defended either. I was on the receiving end of some of those threats last year. It was not fun. On the other hand, it took me less than 5 minutes to get a picture of house of the person who made the threat as well as a picture of his kids. While I really wanted to e mail them back to him, I decided to be the bigger person.

In addition , rude behavior by either side cannot be defended.

[QUOTE] On the other hand, it took me less than 5 minutes to get a picture of house of the person who made the threat as well as a picture of his kids. While I really wanted to e mail them back to him, I decided to be the bigger person.

QUOTE]

Probably a wise decision on your part--given the political climate these days, it would not be surprising for the person who threatened you to turn around and lodge a complaint of terroristic threats, especially if you sent a photo of his kids. Would depend on the laws of the state, but I personally know a person charged and convicted of making terroristic threats based on a drunk text that didn't even include much of a threat--an "I'll kick your ass" kind of thing. And of course, we cruel hunters have access to guns and have proven we're killers, right? You did the right thing by exercising forbearance.

While it would have been fun, I thought it was a really bad idea.

I have received literally dozens of death threats from anti-hunters over the half century I've made our living as an outdoor writer specializing in hunting topics.

The most frightening threat was an anonymous (they always were) letter from an absolute nutcase who had scribbled profanities and drawn knives, guns and hangman's nooses over every inch of both sides of the letter and much of the outside of the envelope.

With the letter were various snapshots showing me, my wife, and daughter entering and leaving our home. The guy said he intended to shoot all of us with a "sniper rifle," just as I and my friends did to animals.

The sheriff's deputy and postal inspector both said there was nothing they could do until something actually happened. Needless to say, we watched our backs for months after that.

Although not as frightening, the way our daughter was treated at school by certain teachers was much meaner.

One teacher scolded her in front of her class for having a father who was responsible for the bison and mountain lion becoming "extinct." (Both still are alive and well, thank you.) Another had everyone in class who hunted or had family members who hunted hold up his or her hand.

When they did, the teacher said, "Now, aren't you children ashamed of yourselves?"

Every time our daughter came home crying I wanted to meet with the principals of her schools, but she and my wife kept me from doing so. I settled by writing letters to those teachers, which accomplished absolutely nothing.

Bill Quimby

Mr. Quimby;

It's possible that the sheriff and the postal inspector were just lazy, or more likely, back in those days a "threat" was not cause for action unless some actual attempt was made.

I think when I was a lot younger and in law enforcement we were told mere threats didn't have the force of law behind them.

Today, depending on the jurisdiction, that's all changed. As I said, above, I'm personally familiar with two cases where threats were made, one by a phone call and one by text, and both resulted in arrest, prosecution and imprisonment. These cases were in Georgia, and the sentence there is five years.

I had never heard of "terroristic threats" until a few years ago, and I guess it grew out of the 9/11 era. Now, though, it applies to any old garden variety threat, not just ones dealing with what we commonly think of as terrorism.

At least, that's true in Georgia--as to other places, I don't know.

Nitro:

The letter I mentioned above was sent to me in about 1976 or so at the daily newspaper where I wrote a twice-weekly column. I also received more than a few death threats by phone by anonymous callers.

You are correct that the law enforcement agents I spoke with did not take the threats seriously. However, none of the people making threats ever identified himself (or herself in a couple of cases) or left a number or address that could be traced.

Perhaps in this technological world the identity of such people can be learned so they can be prosecuted. I hope so.

Incidentally, years before 9/11, several animal-rights groups were officially declared to be terrorist groups by the U.S. Justice Department.

Bill Quimby