quote:

Packer, like so many of his colleagues, (including Derr, I’ll bet), suffer from what we used to call in construction, “engineer’s disease”. They get caught up in the details – and can’t see the big picture – the forest for the trees, if you will.

I make my living every single day from interpretting research and applying it to "real-life" situations. And as an equine orthopedic surgeon...due to research...we have gone from a .45 slug to very good bone fixing devices. We went from a .45 slug to above 50% success for most long-bone fractures. All due to research.

quote:

Packer may have the scientific credentials – but he apparently lacks the broad view - or the balls (probably both) – or he’s just being bought off. In any case, he should just publish his data, and otherwise keep his mouth shut.

We have common ground here! Agreed.

quote:

But just one more thing. Steve, I’d hate to see lion hunting become a staged event where one not only needs a PH and government agent looking over one’s shoulder, but a wildlife biologist, geneticist, sociologist (etc.) crowding the scene. That’s where this call for “the individual areas where prides and individuals are separately identified and their individual places in the pride dynamics worked out” might lead.

Right now...I would not worry so much about "HOW" it will be done in the future but concetrate on the "IF" it will be done in the future.

SteveGI,

If we go back to your rancher model...the ranching industry figured out how to increase the Bison population. The lion population is in free fall right now and we won't even talk about the black rhino.

Once hunting blocks show an increase or at least a stabilization in the populations the fire will die down and the burn will get ointment.

One of our posters here on AR has a signature line that says: "It is not good enough to try hard...One must produce results!" I think that sums up most of life.

One more thing...Dr. Jim Derr is a hunter! He understands the hunting heritage. He sees where the dollars (at least in the US) come from to support wild-life conservation (from hunters). I doubt Craig Packer has ever busted a cap on anything in his life.

That does NOT mean he is biased the other way. As previously stated research should just present the facts.

I reckon we're all in basic agreement.

As I see it, ideally each hunting area would have an ongoing study on pride dynamics and identifing what animals are and are not shooters and part of that team would be a PH that could take the client for his hunt, identify the right animal and have the client take him..... In reality, that ain't gonna happen in a hundred years because there isn't the money to pay for it and nor is there the people with the know how to do it.

Even if there were, it would probably treble the price and at least halve the success rate of the Lion hunts and I guarantee hunters either won't want or won't be able to afford that and nor will they be happy to accept that low a success rate.

All that said, if anyone wants to offer me a job studying their Lion populations, I'd be very interested!

I can't think of a better way to spend my retirement from those long tabs after Buffalo!

As long as I've got my bgan for emails etc once a day, I'll be very happy!

LEDVM- again, finally glad to meet you this weekend after hearing so much about you from Dr. Derr

I can personally tell you, that Dr. Derr and myself, I'm one of his researchers, are pro-hunting to the core. In the past 2 years, I've shot 25 trophies in africa alone. I watched Dr. Derr slam a gemsbok at 362 yds with my rifle...so you better watch out! haha

Now that being said, we simply do research and report the FACTS. Thats how science is done these days, there's no way in hell you can publish in Peer Reviewed Journals unless you do. Gone are the days of just making grande statements and people just taking your word for it. You have to be able to prove a logic in your conclusion.

STEVEGI- I will second LEDVM statements, that you are completely wrong in your opinion concerning bison. And the truth is very simple, if the operators of african hunting do not get behind science, embrace and support it, this industry will end.

You cannot argue good science, and thats one thing the anti's use against the hunting community. There is a blanket opinion that scientist are anti hunters, and that their research is secretly being used to destroy hunting. This may be true for some, but definitely not for Dr. Derr and myself, and the hunting community should get very excited about having someone like Dr. Derr, a published world authority concerning genetics, on their side and embrace him, support his work, because he will be able to prove from an un-biased scientific approach and PUBLISH (which is most important and thats something that your average Joe blow, SCI, DSC, HSC members can't or don't do) these claims that we hunters love to spout off about concerning the benefits of hunting.

quote:

ideally each hunting area would have an ongoing study on pride dynamics and identifing what animals are and are not shooters and part of that team would be a PH that could take the client for his hunt, identify the right animal and have the client take him.....

Steve,

I will show my ignorance a little. I made the assumption that "most" safari companies were run that way.

I'd say there's no more than a handful of companies in the whole of Tanzania and/or maybe two handfuls of companies in the whole of Africa that do that..... and their prices are probably something like twice the price of the cheaper companies.

Holy crap! Somebody ring the bell to end round 1.

Fortunately I get more than a 1 minute rest period.

"qoute by Shakari: "if anyone wants to offer me a job studying their Lion populations, I'd be very interested!"

Steve, You're going to have to bulk-up your signature line. Surely you can get an Honorary, Associate PhD credential somewhere. Try Macquarie University.

S.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
Surely you can get an Honorary, Associate PhD credential somewhere. Try Macquarie University. S.

Mate, I've already got a PhD (as in Professional hunter's Diploma )

But hey, I'll even take one from Macquarie University if they'll give it to me and it'll help me get that dream job!

Just think, I'd spend my days watching and researching Lions, boot up the Bgan for business and personal emails in the evening and maybe do the occasional cat hunt.

Damn but I'd be in heaven!

Can I get a PhD in Simba?

quote:

Just think, I'd spend my days watching and researching Lions, boot up the Bgan for business and personal emails in the evening and maybe do the occasional cat hunt.

Steve,
I would not give up on that thought. I think a niche may open up for just that sort of person.

I'll live in hope but won't hold my breathe.

Actually, I wonder if there would be a market for maybe 2 or 3 guests to accompany the individual area studies for a few weeks at a time to help with the finances........

quote:

won't hold my breathe.

As the screws tighten....???

Animal husbandry has been around a lot longer than test tubes and bunsen burners.The black rhino is doing quite fine in South Africa. So are bontebok and black wildebeest, at least they were until scientests with their bio-diversity horsewallop pushed government bean-bags into bringing out the TOPS Regulations.

Scriptus,
The only problem is this, there are many "truths" in animal husbandry that are completely FALSE! Especially concerning wild populations that are not bred in pens, where females are only kept in areas with one male.

Whether you like science, scientist, or research, I highly doubt that you are not smart enough to realize that science has made incredible leaps in the areas of game management, and for certain species the implementation of those technologies will be required for their survival.

I reckon this new project of Dr Derr's & Oryxhunter could make an IMMENSE difference to African wildlife in umpteen different ways!

quote:

Animal husbandry has been around a lot longer than test tubes and bunsen burners.

But ask any rancher and if he is honest, he will tell you animal husbandry is improved daily by science.

quote:

The black rhino is doing quite fine in South Africa

Black Rhino as a species are definitly in less peril due to the efforts of RSA game ranchers. But to use the word fine...I think is a bit of an overstatement.

And if it were not for science...how would you dart and translocate a rhino? Ranchers did not develop those drugs and techniques. Scientists did!

quote:

at least they were until scientests with their bio-diversity horsewallop pushed government bean-bags into bringing out the TOPS Regulations

Which reiterates the fact that hunters and the hunting industry needs to do its own science and research and implement its results.

SHAKARI- I just seem to like you more and more! hahh thanks for the support buddy!

LEDVM- +1

The hunting community needs to sponsor Pro-hunting scientist that are:

1. World Leaders in their field
2. Published
3. Unbiased (Meaning just damn honest! Report the truth, plain and simple. So many people thinkscientific researchers just report what they want, and thats just not true. Real scietific reporting is based on facts, not your agenda, because there's someone else out there that has the opportunity to review your work and call BS. People's opinions are for Magazine articles and Books, which is where most people find their facts, which isn't a good idea.)
4. Scientist who've proven themselves in the appropriate line of work in the lab and in the field.

This will be the only way to fight the anti's in the future...because it will lead to FACTS, and those are hard to argue!

I think one of the biggest problems is communication between hunters and scientists. They each see the other as slightly removed from what the other does and we need to bring the two groups together so they understand and communicate with each other more.

For example, if a hunting site hosted details of a scientific project that explains things like who, how, why and what benefit type details of a scientific project, the hunters will not only understand the importance of the project, many will probably want to support it in some way such as send in samples etc...... whereas if a scientific project has a stand alone site only, hunters will probably bounce right out of it.

Which is why we've told Oryxhunter we'll be very happy to host details of his project free of charge on our site at www.shakariconnection.com anytime he's ready to give us the relevent info.

Shakari- I am working on it, Dr. Derr and I will be hopefully getting things in order for some sort of publication on your site...we really appreciate your offer!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I think one of the biggest problems is communication between hunters and scientists. They each see the other as slightly removed from what the other does and we need to bring the two groups together so they understand and communicate with each other more.

For example, if a hunting site hosted details of a scientific project that explains things like who, how, why and what benefit type details of a scientific project, the hunters will not only understand the importance of the project, many will probably want to support it in some way such as send in samples etc...... whereas if a scientific project has a stand alone site only, hunters will probably bounce right out of it.

Which is why we've told Oryxhunter we'll be very happy to host details of his project free of charge on our site at www.shakariconnection.com anytime he's ready to give us the relevent info.

Well said Steve.

Communication is one of the things I try to provide for Texas A&M's projects.

Not to say that I could probably do it better at times!

Anytime you're ready buddy!

Ledvm,

We obviously have a limit to number of projects we can help but are always open to suggestions related to African wildlife related projects.

We're especially interested in Lion and/or Elephant projects.

I think that lion research is going to be very important for hunting, although some hunters may not like or accept it. I think it is very important guide for setting quotas in different areas and for just getting a general idea of the health and structure of different prides in different areas. Collars are particularly useful, because they make research much easier and useful because you can keep tabs on an entire pride by collaring just one individual.

Reseach will also open up opportunities for universities and students to study and gain all sorts of interesting, useful data. As long as there is not a conflict of interest (not always easy) hunting and research should be able to go hand in hand. Research over time would also be able to point out what effect hunting, diseases, poaching, poisoning, etc may be having on lions in different areas so it is possible to detect and rectify if possible any human-induced problems before they become a potential crisis to the lion populations.

Nzou,
Well said my friend, you are completely on target!

Smithsonian contacted me today. They are considering publishing my letter to the editor.

That is great AZ!!! That is what I put this thread up for! Good job!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
That is great AZ!!! That is what I put this thread up for! Good job!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks; we get the mag, but I am not sure I would have noticed without your help.

I would encourage others to write letters to the editor. I have been published at least twice in USA Today defending hunting when it has been attacked there. When a "protester" states that hunting is so 19th century or something stupid, I point out that we still eat meat. When the morality of hunting is questioned, I point out many people who protest hunting are vehement in their right to have an abortion (that one got published in my local paper). For the record, I am pro-choice: I choose to hunt.

AZ,
I finally got around to rebutting the Smithsonian Article myself. But it has been 24hrs and still has not shown up!

Did anybody read the other two articles in which Packer is mentioned on the Smithsonian site.
•Man-Eaters of Tsavo•The Most Ferocious Man-Eating Lions

The article mentioned is actually Writen by An Abigail Tucker. Didn't find the articles pro-hunting, but not anti-hunting either. The other articles seem to indicate A little tolorance might go A long way?

Ledvm, science has never shown that it can make healthy wildlife populations healthier, properly functioning ecosystems function better, or healthy habitat more habitable. Science can and does, however, enable practices that destroy ecosystem function, and produce extremely unhealthy animals - the trend toward factory farming as a replacement for traditional animal husbandry being a prime example. The point is that even good science needs better oversight than the scientific community, by itself, is able to provide.

Regarding Dr. Derr’s work, I refer to the following quote: “Though the term ‘pure’ is commonly used in describing such herds, Dr. Derr said, it is technically not accurate because of the limits of DNA testing, which has a 1 percent probability of error. He prefers the phrase ‘no historic or genetic evidence of hybridization’.”

So even Dr. Derr doesn’t know that his (allegedly) genetically pure Bison are actually genetically pure.

quote:

Originally posted by wfh:
Did anybody read the other two articles in which Packer is mentioned on the Smithsonian site.
•Man-Eaters of Tsavo•The Most Ferocious Man-Eating Lions

The article mentioned is actually Writen by An Abigail Tucker. Didn't find the articles pro-hunting, but not anti-hunting either. The other articles seem to indicate A little tolorance might go A long way?

wfh,
Others on this list have actual first hand experience with Packer and his group. If they will...they can give you first hand account where Packer has said he is pro-hunting but then stabbed the hunting community in the back.

When slurs like "peach-fuzz maned lions in there mothers prides" are used, tolerance is probably not the direction to go.

quote:

science has never shown that it can make healthy wildlife populations healthier,

How many 100's of examples do you want that prove you wrong?

quote:

Science can and does, however, enable practices that destroy ecosystem function, and produce extremely unhealthy animals

Please give me one example where this comment is correct?

SteveGI,
You must have been scolded infront of the class by your science teacher to be this Jaded against science.

If you've ever eaten a single piece of meat in the past 10 yrs, drank a shot of tequilla, wrote on a sheet of paper, ESSENTIALLY, if you've been alive...you're life has been dramatically improved by science, from a direct result of scientific influences concerning the growth, maintenance and production of all animals and plants.

I will not continue to try and sway you, because it is obvious that you are either ignorant (which I highly doubt) or you are trying to pick a fight (more likely).

It brings me great pleasure to know that most people in the world do not share your view, and will in fact support the work of Derr's and mine in the future. Fortunately, you will benefit from our work despite your complete lack of reasoning skills.

Nope...no pro-hunting points-of-view published!

AZ, they didn't publish yours.

I thought maybe there was a chance they would!

Guess they did not read about the Mass. election!

Smithsonian did publish AZ's rebuttal!!!

Good to hear, who's got a link to the article?

Ledvm - Missed alot of this one. Does this mean we get to start arguing again???

Nope Aaron...me and you (and most all hunters) are difinitely on the same side of this one!!!