Allright ladies, here it is, somebody tell me that this isn't a stud, looks like something that would come out of a bucking chute...

Tank.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Hey Aaron, stop being such a self righteous, stodgy old curmudgeon. You take yourself, your cause and this forum entirely too seriously and it borders on rediculous. There is nothing wrong with having a little fun (even at your own expense sometimes) and stirring the pot. Besides, I was actuallly hoping Lane would scan this youngster into his super computer and spit out a DOB.QUOTE]

Well, maybe scan it through your super-computer already, and tell us what you know? That way we can all move on, limiting the number of times we have to listen to your chicken-shit jabs, that you never miss an opportunity to throw.

So, how 'bout that lion Aaron?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Allright ladies, here it is, somebody tell me that this isn't a stud, looks like something that would come out of a bucking chute...

Brad, He is a stud - no doubt! I hope like hell to see him in 4 weeks time.

Interestingly enough, it appears the majority of posters seem to think he's older. More interesting is that folks like Fujo, Bwanamich, Lane, Dave Fulson, etc - all guys I would consider knowledgable Lion guys, all thought he was older.

Frankly, I think threads like this are very helpful. How can it not be?

Brad - Do you know where this picture is from, and is that the correct date on it?

Yes, the date is correct and it is from the lowveld of Zim, good luck on your hunt. Donde?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Yes, the date is correct and it is from the lowveld of Zim

Thanks man! Personally, I think its a worthwhile thread - and serves a good purpose.

agreed, so where are you hunting? or is it a secret?

Just got a quote on a lion hunt. For 21 days they want $2700 per day, or $57,600 total.

And you guys are telling me you wouldn't shoot that lion toward the end of the safari?

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Just got a quote on a lion hunt. For 21 days they want $2700 per day, or $57,600 total.

And you guys are telling me you wouldn't shoot that lion toward the end of the safari?

And you've not even included the $7500 to $10,000 trophy fee.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
agreed, so where are you hunting? or is it a secret?

Nope, no secret! I'm doing an 18-day lion hunt in the Zambezi Valley, then doing another 18-day lion hunt immediately afterwards, with Nixon - near Malapati.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
In my opinion, this thread really highlights the absurdity of folks calling out others for shooting lions that are perceived to be "too young". Fact is that even when folks have the luxury of staring at several pictures for as long as they want, the opinions are all over the map. Compare that to sitting in a blind in dim light, with fleeting glimpses, at the tail end of an 18 or 21 day hunt, running on a few hours of sleep . . . just too many variables in my view to suggest that someone should be judged or ridiculed after the fact.

Hi Mike,
You make a very good point...... one that many here have already shared in the past. Just on the issue of aging by pictures, if you have many pictures from different angles, it does make it easier to age. For eg, if Brad had posted the last photo together with the others, I think there would have been less variance in opinions between all. The issue of whether the lion is 6 or 8 or 9 is superfluous as it pertains to lion hunting as so long as it is deemed >6 and the other checks have been ticked off, then the decision to take him is made.

I do agree that under the hunting conditions you list above, aging can be a challenge. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. Or I should say, the way it should be. If you can't age the lion then you have to pass, as difficult as it may be to do. Therefore, IMHO, using the baiting method is the most secure way of ensuring that the right lion is hunted, because it is the best method employed to stand a chance at multiple sightings of the same lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Just got a quote on a lion hunt. For 21 days they want $2700 per day, or $57,600 total.

And you guys are telling me you wouldn't shoot that lion toward the end of the safari?

And that there my friends, is the reason that so many young lion are shot every year by hunters! The pressure to be successful, is an issuethat needs to be dealt with.

There are operators that tell their clients that if the sole measure of success for their safari is whether or not they shoot a lion, they ought to reconsider booking the hunt.... Others offer a large Trophy Fee on success.... yet more offer a discount on a repeat booking for lion if the first attempt is unsuccessful... and so on.

I am not an expert Lion hunter, I have killed only one. But this lion looks young to me.

Short nosed, no scars on his face or body...

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
In my opinion, this thread really highlights the absurdity of folks calling out others for shooting lions that are perceived to be "too young". Fact is that even when folks have the luxury of staring at several pictures for as long as they want, the opinions are all over the map. Compare that to sitting in a blind in dim light, with fleeting glimpses, at the tail end of an 18 or 21 day hunt, running on a few hours of sleep . . . just too many variables in my view to suggest that someone should be judged or ridiculed after the fact.

i agree 100%- but it sure doesn't stop some folks here from hammering the hell out of others for doing just that.

GUYS: I too now would agree, if that's what this thread was doing - but its NOT!! Other than Brad and I, who always jab at eachother - although we also like eachother too. This is just another thread offering up a couple of interesting pics, asking for opinions, and potentially offering a chance for all of us to learn more about the lion, and the differences they all share. I guess I missed the part where others are being "hammered" for shooting young lions??

Mike, your point - is the ENTIRE point to the exercise offered here by Brad, IMO. Accurate assessment of age is/can be very difficult, but learning to assess a lion's age to the best of one's ability, can only be a good thing. As I have said many, many times - I originally handled the "wrldhunter" lion issue incorrectly, and have tried to take a different course of action sice then (educating - just like this thread) But, it also brought alot of attention to the problems facing lion hunting issues, and since then, has played a big part in alot of AR members becoming more aware, more concerned, and certainly more knowledgable of the situation.

I understand your point as it pertains to being ridiculed, but judged after the fact? Well, tell that to the PH's/outfitters in Tanzania - who now have NO CHOICE but to be judged after the fact - its the LAW! A law that could potentially come to Zambia, Zimbabwe, etc, unless we all show a willingness (or restraint) to do our best to shoot only "mature" - 5yr old plus, lions. I totally believe in striving for 6 yr old and above lions, but I HATE the LAW in TZ. I don't want to see political pressure/anti lion hunting pressure force other countries to do the same, because hunters/PH's are not willing to police themselves, to the best of their ability. Thus, I think threads like this are/can be very helpful - JMO.

EXACTLY HOW DO WE POLICE OURSELVES AT THE END OF THE DAY/MOMENT OF TRUTH WHEN THE DECISION IS ULTIMATELY A SUBJECTIVE ONE BASED ON EXPERIENCE OF THE PH??? should only PH'S who have shot X number of lions aged over 6 years of age be allowed to guide lion hunts??

J,

I think some of the uncertainty about the age of the lion that you might shoot can be taken away the first day in camp. It is imporant to have a frank discussion with your PH about your personal expectations. If you truly will only be happy with a mature lion tell the PH and live with your decision.

The prevailing argument has been that if I spend a pant load of money on the hunt I should come home with a lion if I see anything acceptable to me. I can see one side of that but are we buying dead animals or an opportunity to hunt?

I personally think if you have gotten to the point where you can book a lion hunt you are a trophy hunter so perhaps you should only shoot a lion that fits the trophy profile and for me anyway that is an older mature animal regardless of species.

As to the original question to my uneducated eye the lion looked like shooter in the first picture. If I see one like that in Sept BANG!

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
EXACTLY HOW DO WE POLICE OURSELVES AT THE END OF THE DAY/MOMENT OF TRUTH WHEN THE DECISION IS ULTIMATELY A SUBJECTIVE ONE BASED ON EXPERIENCE OF THE PH??? should only PH'S who have shot X number of lions aged over 6 years of age be allowed to guide lion hunts??

Perhaps one way to address this is to either discount the trophy fee, or price it low in the first place, for taking an older lion and charge a stiff "penalty" trophy fee, based on a sliding scale, for taking a young lion. The younger the lion under 5 years of age, the stiffer the penalty.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
EXACTLY HOW DO WE POLICE OURSELVES AT THE END OF THE DAY/MOMENT OF TRUTH WHEN THE DECISION IS ULTIMATELY A SUBJECTIVE ONE BASED ON EXPERIENCE OF THE PH??? should only PH'S who have shot X number of lions aged over 6 years of age be allowed to guide lion hunts??

JD - Obviously field aging a lion is NOT an exact science. But I think even this thread shows that the "majority" of the posters were able to identify this lion as "mature", obviously over 2-4 yrs of age. So, that's a great start.

If the HUNTER at least recognizes the need/desire for an older/mature lion trophy, and he conveys that concern to the PH - then he's done what he can do. He's done his part to "police" himself. No PH worth a penny is going to blatantly dis-regard his client's desires, just to kill something. If both sides are on the same page, and the PH/Outfitter are policing themselves too, its more likely to be a policy that everyone follows. As threads like this prove, over the past 1-2 years, more hunters/clients are becoming more educated, thus helping to eliminate the ability of the PH to use the extremely LAME, "bush cat" excuse, and others!

As you mention, its ultimately a somewhat subjective process - thus why I think the Tanzania LAW is ultimately flawed. However, as we've all stated many times now, the flip side is any PH who is actually guiding a hunt - should be able to recognize a 2 - 3 yr old lion as OBVIOUSLY YOUNG, and most 4 yr olds will show signs of immaturity as well. A rare occasion will come along, like the one pictured below from Zambia. A very nice looking lion, scientifically aged at 4.

But, if hunters & PH's both - are intersted and concerned with taking only what they deem to be a "mature", hopefully 6 yr old plus lion, and they stick to that policy, then they are doing the best thing can. Obviously following a couple other rules too, like not shooting a pride male with dependent cubs, etc, etc. For me, that's all I'm asking! I am realist, and I've been in the field hunting lions all over southern/eastern Africa. I know the difficulty one can deal with when hunting/judging a lion. Its not that easy under real hunting conditions, thus an allowance should be made for possible human error.

This lion is properly aged at 4! I think I would have missed this one too.

quote:

But I think even this thread shows that the "majority" of the posters were able to identify this lion as "mature", obviously over 2-4 yrs of age.

Actually Aaron, it wasn't until Bwanamich said "Bang" did anyone venture to say this was a shooter. In fairness, the answers might have different had the entire body been shown.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

But I think even this thread shows that the "majority" of the posters were able to identify this lion as "mature", obviously over 2-4 yrs of age.

Actually Aaron, it wasn't until Bwanamich said "Bang" did anyone venture to say this was a shooter. In fairness, the answers might have different had the entire body been shown.

First of all, not showing the whole body was obviously Brad's point to the exercise in the first place! Yes of course, the answers might ALL have been in favor of his advanced age, had Brad posted that pic originally.

Secondly, and more obviously - each person comments in order of when they see/check the AR forums. Obviously "Bwanamich" just happened to be the first guy to post his opinion in favor of shooting the lion. But also to the contrary, the two posters prior to him (ozhunter & mouse93) both agreed it was an old/older lion, and "ozhunter" was ready to shoot it too. So I don't think AR posters were following someone else, they simply commented when they saw the thread - and the majority posted in favor of the lion being a "mature/old" lion.

Oh father, I'm so ashamed.

After seeing full body photo, I reverse my opinion. He is a very good lion.

In the first series of photos, his nose color led me to believe he was older. But, I did not see the scaring I associate with an older wild lion and I thought his main was a bit sparse on top and his ears appeared too large. I thought he looked "youthful" compared to the lion I shot in Zambia. Alas, I was wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Oh father, I'm so ashamed.

After seeing full body photo, I reverse my opinion. He is a very good lion.

In the first series of photos, his nose color led me to believe he was older. But, I did not see the scaring I associate with an older wild lion and I thought his main was a bit sparse on top and his ears appeared too large. I thought he looked "youthful" compared to the lion I shot in Zambia. Alas, I was wrong.

Wrong? Perhaps so, but most would have been wrong on the lion shot by Andrew above - me included.

The important thing is we are actually trying to learn, and most seem to care about it too.

Doesn't look to me like you were wrong in Zambia!!!!

I have no idea and know less about lions than most people on this board.

My answer is that it's as old as my PH tells me it is.

I am truly hopeing that this picture was taken in the Zambezi Valley and that someone will keep him well fed and watered till I get there next year!!!
The experts all seem to agree he is over six but can anyone tell an actual age?
What are the obvious things that put this brute over 6 that I can pick up in my shaking scope next year?
What features would he have to go under 6. Besides obviously arriving drinking from his mum
Scott

Damn SBT that must be the oldest lion ever posted on AR...Congrats

quote:

Originally posted by sjb:

What are the obvious things that put this brute over 6 that I can pick up in my shaking scope next year?

Scott

Quote;
with its broad nose, pail colour,droopy lips, darker nose, nicks in its face and hair fully around the ears

quote:

with its broad nose, pail colour,droopy lips, darker nose, nicks in its face and hair fully around the ears

Is someone describing the looks of a worn out whore in the back streets of Nairobi?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by sjb:

What are the obvious things that put this brute over 6 that I can pick up in my shaking scope next year?

Scott

Quote;
with its broad nose, pail colour,droopy lips, darker nose, nicks in its face and hair fully around the ears

So you age lions, the same way you do people . . . that makes it easier. Till I got to be 50 I never realized that hair grows at least twice as fast in your ear as it does on your head.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

But I think even this thread shows that the "majority" of the posters were able to identify this lion as "mature", obviously over 2-4 yrs of age.

Actually Aaron, it wasn't until Bwanamich said "Bang" did anyone venture to say this was a shooter. In fairness, the answers might have different had the entire body been shown.

AAZ,
There are 6 key features that can be gleaned from Brad's 2nd photo that set this lion out as older. When I get time in the next few days...I'll do another mark-up of that photo. I just get to check AR every few days right now due to business but will make time.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

with its broad nose, pail colour,droopy lips, darker nose, nicks in its face and hair fully around the ears

Is someone describing the looks of a worn out whore in the back streets of Nairobi?

NOT SURE ABOUT THE PALE COLOR BUT THE REST COULD APPLY IN EITHER CASE

The four year old lion that Aaron posted looks like a much nicer trophy than either of the other two. Other than the more olive coloration it does look like a fully mature cat. I suspect a PH would have a difficult time convincing me that the four year old wasn't a legal cat.

465H&H

I guess that's the point. There is no way to identify a lion's age conclusively just by getting a look at it the first time it comes to bait. Thus the problem with this 6 year old law in Tanzania.

Mark

it's hard to tell because there are also other signs that morfoligique permete to judge the age of a lion that we connot see on this picture.
But maybe 6 + years.

Shoot it and get Paula White to age it.

1)Hair completely filled in above and around ears

2)eyes slightly sunken suggestive of facial muscle atrophy typical of older aged lion; lid margin dermatitis also advanced age characteristic

3)face shows generalized "wasted away" appearance of facial muscle atrophy

4) greater than 60% black or dark gray color

5) bib mane is long and black

6) skin over shoulders is seborrheic with wrinkly characteristic of skin atrophy of advancing age; also coat color is a mousy dun color

7) Mane hairs over shoulders appear worn and frizzy not fresh growing

The conglomeration of all of these characteristics are suggestive of declining body condition which would be suggestive of an age 6 or greater lion.