Today the Dallas Safari Club officially announced its endorsement of the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion sponsored and coauthored by the Lion Conservation Task Force and leading African Lion researchers!!!

http://forums.accuratereloadin...371073481#8371073481

A step in the right direction.

Lane,

Great news!!! Are you guys working on the same with SCI?

Brett

We have been working on SCI since the definition was written this summer. I would encourage everyone who is a member to write in support of 'the Definition'. We really need it right now for support against the ESA up-list threat.

"The Dallas Safari Club (DSC) today announced a formal position statement defining the ideal huntable male lion.

The position reads: The ideal huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs.

DSC is encouraging safari operators and hunters across Africa to use this definition within their own conservation ethos. For its part, DSC adopted a new club policy: No DSC member will be eligible for any DSC recognition or trophy award unless the member’s lion trophy submission is a fully mature lion as determined in the sole discretion of the DSC awards committee.

“Research shows that hunting male lions at least five years of age has no negative effect on populations,” said Ben Carter, DSC executive director. “We adopted a six-year rule because we recognize the difficulties in judging age, especially in field conditions, and we chose to err on the side of caution. Hunters have always led the charge for conservation. This is one more example.

DSC President Allen Moore added, “DSC and conservation authorities across Africa are concerned about the developing possibility of reduced harvest quotas on lions. If that happens, the resulting loss of revenue from lion hunters would be a significant setback for conservation, not only for lion populations, but also for other species such as buffalo and plains game.”

Urging hunters to self-impose harvest restrictions is seen as a better alternative.
The DSC six-year rule is endorsed by leading authorities on lion conservation, outfitters and DSC leaders.

For several years, DSC has been funding scientific research on African lions. Understanding lion population dynamics is one of many projects supported by DSC grants to advance conservation, education and hunter advocacy worldwide."

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
We have been working on SCI since the definition was written this summer. I would encourage everyone who is a member to write in support of 'the Definition'. We really need it right now for support against the ESA up-list threat.

given SCI's past history of tolerating ethics abuses, do you REALLY think they care about such a definition. i sent numerous emails to them several years ago about the ongoing OoA fiasco and never received a single reply. the members have NO input on anything, including election of officers at the national level...

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
We have been working on SCI since the definition was written this summer. I would encourage everyone who is a member to write in support of 'the Definition'. We really need it right now for support against the ESA up-list threat.

Anyone expecting SCI to do seomething decent is dreaming!

Now, if some outfitter is breaking every law in hunting ethics, and have some SCI bigwig supporting them, SCI will be very quick in denying that there is anything wrong!

You could set your watch by you two!!

Matt,

You don't have to listen to us.

Just look at SCI past performance.

How many of their past presidents have been accused of something or another?

How many of their "SCI PH of the year" have turned into bad apples?

How long did it take them to kick Out Of Africa out?

I am a Life Member of SCI, and there is nothing that will please me more than to see them actually doing something positive.

How many times have we asked how much money does SCI actually pay out for African conservation?

We are still waiting for an answer.

It really is not rocket science any more.

All they have to say we did this project that cost so much, and that project that cost so much.

WE will be very happy to see our money being used for conservation.

Well done Lane.

Time will tell, but I will be surprised if SCI does not endorse the definition at the convention. It would be foolish for them not to.

Like Saeed, I am a life member of SCI, that does not mean however that I agree with everything they do or do not do. They have made some serious mistakes over the years, but I guess that can be said of any big organization.

I keep hoping they will get a little more proactive on things but I believe their internal executive structure and politics are very cumbersome.

Lane.

Thank you and all the others for your insight and diligence in this matter and DSC as the active force of real conservation.

Thanks for your efforts Lane.

There will be a special fundraising event at the Saturday night auction event in Reno to benefit the lion.

From: Paula White

Sent: Thu 1/17/13 10:42 AM

To: Aaron Neilson (globalhunts@aol.com) LANE EASTER (ledvm@msn.com) and many others e-mails erased for privacy

This is an excellent and important first step.
Leave it to the Texans to lead the charge!
Thanks to everyone for their efforts on this.

Best regards,

Paula

Dr. Paula A. White
Director, Zambia Lion Project
Center for Tropical Research
University of California, Los Angeles USA

Thanks everyone for kind words but I am afraid the fight has just begun!!!

Stay tuned as Aaron and I will need your support!

First off - this represents the reason I truly believe that DSC - is the best conservation organization on the planet!! DSC is "first for hunters", DSC is first for conservation/wildlife.

Look, the fact is - most folks have NO IDEA how critical this endorsement by DSC really is! The battle is not over, but without this endorsement - the fight would have been much, much harder.

Thank you to all involved, and thank you to DSC.

If you havent' joined yet - please do so immediately.

i am sure Matt will persuade SCI to do the right thing also. after all, they have a long and illustrious history of doing the right thing

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
There will be a special fundraising event at the Saturday night auction event in Reno to benefit the lion.

We understand our Minister will be there and please extend her an invitation.

Lane,

Whilst I applaud your efforts. Just how will this be enforced in the field? Is DSC going to put pressure on African countries to adopt these measures? And if so how?

Who is going to age the Lion and would this be on export or import?

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
There will be a special fundraising event at the Saturday night auction event in Reno to benefit the lion.

We understand our Minister will be there and please extend her an invitation.

WTF she going to a hunting convention for when she has just shut the door in her own country? I would have a tray of rotten eggs ready to bombard her with....... Her travel allowances and per diems are good i guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
There will be a special fundraising event at the Saturday night auction event in Reno to benefit the lion.

We understand our Minister will be there and please extend her an invitation.

WTF she going to a hunting convention for when she has just shut the door in her own country? I would have a tray of rotten eggs ready to bombard her with....... Her travel allowances and per diems are good i guess.

Bwana,

This will be an opportunity for her to realise the magnitude of hunting and its global participation.

Personally I think her decisions have been swayed by anti hunters so I see this as an opportunity for us to to present our side of the story.

fairgame, one would hope so. Trouble is, at these conventions, hunters don't always put their best foot forward.

I applaud DSC for adopting the lion standard. Peer pressure can be a good thing.

Roger Whittall Safaris fully endorses the DSC position on the definition of a huntable male lion and will try, by all means to adhere to the guidelines, at the same time providing statistics and data to the relevant authorities. In the rapidly dwindling realm of free-range hunting in africa, it is vital that we do all we can to ensure the quotas are realistic and the right animals are being targeted... these measures can only help that cause!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Lane,

Whilst I applaud your efforts. Just how will this be enforced in the field? Is DSC going to put pressure on African countries to adopt these measures? And if so how?

Who is going to age the Lion and would this be on export or import?

Cheers

Andrew,
Right now...this is a guideline for hunters not a rule or law. DSC is considering an age assessment for trophy entries. It will be handled after import.

We (LCTF) do recommend this definition to all range states and is already law in TZ. Paula is pitching it in Zambia as we speak. We (LCTF) feel the definition is best implemented by rules similar to those of the Niassa Reserve of Mosambique.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Lane,

Whilst I applaud your efforts. Just how will this be enforced in the field? Is DSC going to put pressure on African countries to adopt these measures? And if so how?

Who is going to age the Lion and would this be on export or import?

Cheers

Andrew,
Right now...this is a guideline for hunters not a rule or law. DSC is considering an age assessment for trophy entries. It will be handled after import.

We (LCTF) do recommend this definition to all range states and is already law in TZ. Paula is pitching it in Zambia as we speak. We (LCTF) feel the definition is best implemented by rules similar to those of the Niassa Reserve of Mosambique.

Andrew - As Lane says, this is a management/conservation guideline, not a law! We pressed hard to get DSC to look/listen, and to their credit - they did exactly that.

Now others need to do something similar, and the important range states need to adopt policy/law that also reflects a similar law/rule, to that of the Niassa Carnivore Project.

My 5 cents : the first step in any form of control is the first step in abolishment , clever strategists will provide a first step that the opposition will comfortably take which is often in the case of anti gun or anti hunting where they get us to concede a small step , it's like the first step off the bus , once your are off you are off no matter how small the step was .
Please don't mistake this as not been very supportive of the cause , but in Botswana we took this step with the biologists who said supporting the guidelines would help conserve the species and help to improve quota control , it was the first step - all the next steps were diminishing the future of hunting not one single step took us closer to improved hunting opportunities or subsequent better lion conservation , the Kalahari lions were closed now it's open season for poachers. In south africa gun control started with licensing now ist restricted licenses with more red tape , next step Australia , the same is happening in the USA first comes some sort of apathy to control of automatics ( which is so reasonable) it's the first step to abolishment . Every time the control of hunting took one small step in control , the result was abolishment. Never loose sight the anti hunters don't want concessions they want abolishment , the anti gun people don't want control they want abolishment.

So my concern is that now the awards committee is supposed to be able to judge wild lion ages?!? Accurately?!? And from field photos? How on earth are they supposed to do that with any kind of accuracy? In 2010 Paula white said, at the awcf in Vic falls in front of over a dozen country leaders, ph assoc presidents and other NGO groups, (not a quote, summary) that there isn't a way to 100% tell the difference between 4-6 and 5-7. These fringe areas surrounding your chosen number of six is vague and would certainly vary heavily on environment.

I find it amusing, that one could even conceive that they could make these judgments. Now I know people are going to slam me to the pavement, but come on people! Aging wildlife isn't an exact science, and to this day no one has written a scientific paper that proves a fail safe method to judge lions from phenotypic traits (items recognizable with the human eye) across their range in Africa.

Let the bashing begin!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
My 5 cents : the first step in any form of control is the first step in abolishment , clever strategists will provide a first step that the opposition will comfortably take which is often in the case of anti gun or anti hunting where they get us to concede a small step , it's like the first step off the bus , once your are off you are off no matter how small the step was .
Please don't mistake this as not been very supportive of the cause , but in Botswana we took this step with the biologists who said supporting the guidelines would help conserve the species and help to improve quota control , it was the first step - all the next steps were diminishing the future of hunting not one single step took us closer to improved hunting opportunities or subsequent better lion conservation , the Kalahari lions were closed now it's open season for poachers. In south africa gun control started with licensing now ist restricted licenses with more red tape , next step Australia , the same is happening in the USA first comes some sort of apathy to control of automatics ( which is so reasonable) it's the first step to abolishment . Every time the control of hunting took one small step in control , the result was abolishment. Never loose sight the anti hunters don't want concessions they want abolishment , the anti gun people don't want control they want abolishment.

Graeme my friend, if only I had 40 hrs to explain to everyone - the inner workings of what has gone on for the past couple of months, but I don't, sorry. Understanding the huge necessity of sponsoring this definition for example, would then be much easier to understand/accept.

Trust me on this - it was a huge step in the right direction!

Safari Botswana Bound: +1000

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
So my concern is that now the awards committee is supposed to be able to judge wild lion ages?!? Accurately?!? And from field photos? How on earth are they supposed to do that with any kind of accuracy? In 2010 Paula white said, at the awcf in Vic falls in front of over a dozen country leaders, ph assoc presidents and other NGO groups, (not a quote, summary) that there isn't a way to 100% tell the difference between 4-6 and 5-7. These fringe areas surrounding your chosen number of six is vague and would certainly vary heavily on environment.

I find it amusing, that one could even conceive that they could make these judgments. Now I know people are going to slam me to the pavement, but come on people! Aging wildlife isn't an exact science, and to this day no one has written a scientific paper that proves a fail safe method to judge lions from phenotypic traits (items recognizable with the human eye) across their range in Africa.

Let the bashing begin!!!!

Oryx - Reading all of/understanding the entire definition, might answer your own questions! It has NOTHING to do with record keeping, or exact age rules/regulations. Its a conservation minded guideline - to encourage hunters/PH's to strive for 6 yr old plus lions - without dependent cubs!

Let me repeat - "It's a conservation message", its not a law, a rule, a stipulation, and nor does it carry any penalty.

To what degree someone like DSC can use it to make a new trophy acceptance "rule", I'm not sure? But, putting forth a conservation message that strives for mature trophies, is what conservation organizations are suppose to do. Not just do nothing like the majority of the hunting industry has done to this point - other than criticize the efforts but forth by those who are trying to reform lion hunting!!

DSC is and always has been a leader in conservation - this to me, proves that once again!

By the way - Paula co-authored the original definition, along with several of us from the hunting industry, and several other leading lion scientists.

"DSC is encouraging safari operators and hunters across Africa to use this definition within their own conservation ethos. For its part, DSC adopted a new club policy: No DSC member will be eligible for any DSC recognition or trophy award unless the member’s lion trophy submission is a fully mature lion as determined in the sole discretion of the DSC awards committee."

I'm all for people doing their best to shoot mature animals. However using a number, that no one can 100% verify while the animal is alive (and even dead, there's some skepticism out there), doesn't seem like a smart choice.

Referring to above quote: dsc using is own judgment panel to determine whether the lion was mature...will be a very interesting task.

Aaron, I'm very aware that this is not a law, just a guideline. Dsc, hsc, Sci, LTCF can make all these statements they want...but at the end of the day...the law is what governs. I believe hunters should hunt in any form that is legal within that country and permissible by their legal standard. I don't push my opinion of ethics on anyone. I just hope you hunt legally and in a way that is satisfying to you.

I'm not a fan of supporting ethical debates because that is for everyone to decide for themselves.

Lastly, it is easy for us to quickly lob out and say, "no shooting of lion less than 6 yrs!" However, what if you're an outfitter and you beleive that lion is 5 yrs old. You get one on quota, and the money derived from that hunt contributes to success of your business, the livelihood of your family, and whether or not you can pay for anti poaching for the entire concession. Who's call is it?!?! Certainly not mine, sitting here in Texas!

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
"DSC is encouraging safari operators and hunters across Africa to use this definition within their own conservation ethos. For its part, DSC adopted a new club policy: No DSC member will be eligible for any DSC recognition or trophy award unless the member’s lion trophy submission is a fully mature lion as determined in the sole discretion of the DSC awards committee."

I'm all for people doing their best to shoot mature animals. However using a number, that no one can 100% verify while the animal is alive (and even dead, there's some skepticism out there), doesn't seem like a smart choice.

Referring to above quote: dsc using is own judgment panel to determine whether the lion was mature...will be a very interesting task.

Aaron, I'm very aware that this is not a law, just a guideline. Dsc, hsc, Sci, LTCF can make all these statements they want...but at the end of the day...the law is what governs. I believe hunters should hunt in any form that is legal within that country and permissible by their legal standard. I don't push my opinion of ethics on anyone. I just hope you hunt legally and in a way that is satisfying to you.

I'm not a fan of supporting ethical debates because that is for everyone to decide for themselves.

Lastly, it is easy for us to quickly lob out and say, "no shooting of lion less than 6 yrs!" However, what if you're an outfitter and you beleive that lion is 5 yrs old. You get one on quota, and the money derived from that hunt contributes to success of your business, the livelihood of your family, and whether or not you can pay for anti poaching for the entire concession. Who's call is it?!?! Certainly not mine, sitting here in Texas!

Oryx,

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your stance here. Firstly, worrying about whether or not DSC, SCI, RW, or any other club will include one's lion into their trophy books based on that club's age determination shouldn't enter into the decision to hunt a particular cat IMO. There are larger issues at play here. I know that sounds like a moral judgement on ethics but I assure you, that is not my intention in making that statement. Rather that barring a change to the status quo, lion hunting is about to be taken away from U.S. hunters, PERIOD!

All of your other points from your above post as well as SBB's on the issue of the lions right now are moot as the uplisting action is currently in the works. It is no longer a far off concept that may happen one day when the anti's get properly organized; uplisting is on the doorstep now, today! I'm not really sure why that seems to be lost in this discussion but apparently it is! Conservation through hunting is a concept I believe in 100% but I also realize that doesn't mean conservation is supported by shooting animals without regard to the long term consequences of the population. To the contrary. Especially in a population of animals that by all accounts is genuinely threatened because of habitat loss. If we as hunters truly are concerned with conservation, and I think by and large we are, then we should strive to make sure our offtake is sustainable. Guidelines which strive to achieve that goal can only be a good thing. If we know that taking a pride holding male with dependent cubs will likely result in the death of additional individuals (ie the dependent cubs), we should attempt to avoid that scenario. Will it work 100% of the time? No, probably not but efforts toward that end should be pursued.

Overall, it matters not to an outfitters monetary derivatives this season concerning the lion for if we don't act promptly, there will be no choice in the matter as the lion WILL be uplisted, and likely within the very near future; possibly weeks or even days from now. I understand passing on a lion will adversely affect the outfitters finances immediately, but what if the lion is uplisted? Don't you think loosing the lion to hunting permanently is more detrimental to that outfitter's business model than passing on one today that is marginal from the conservation standpoint?

Again, I'm not taking my stand from an ethical point of view as I agree with you concerning ethical debates. People should decide for themselves what is or isn't acceptable as long as it's legal. The issue here is that barring a change in attitude toward what is or is not a huntable male lion, the legality of hunting lions will be terminated.

Todd,
I agree with you. I wasn't trying to say hunting lion concerning with records/awards in mind was a great idea. I was just pointing out that If Dsc wants to make decisions about awards and they are going to use a lion's age as part of their process that could prove very challenging!

With regards to the uplisting of lions, you are correct that it is on our doorstep. However, there is no bargaining with antis, it might by time, but that is all. Lion and modern society unfortunately will more than likely have trouble co-existing, and attitudes for hunting in general, much less of iconic African species, is not on the rise. Conservation is being overtaken by preservation!

I would think you would care about the livelihoods of ph's, because they Are the ones paying for anti-poaching right?!?! I think we all have to think about all sides of this argument. I can assure you, that when times are tough, sometimes right now matters. Loss of lion revenues will surely hurt hunting operations where lion hunting occurs, and the dominos that will fall as a result are unseen!

I don't believe the debate on lion hunting ban hinges on the age of lions harvested. They would prefer they die of old age than hunters shoot them for 100ks of $$$ goin to conservation, education, etc. setting an age will not satisfy the antis. Only a total ban will.

I have had my disagreements with Dr. Easter on many issues, but quite frankly if we cannot agree at least in principle on what a huntable lion is, we are in deep trouble. All this is is a position statement, that quite frankly 100% agrees with what "I" personally think a trophy lion is.

Face it, folks, all aging is a judgement call. If the DSC/SCI folks are going to say that it should be a 6 year old animal, its just that, a judgement on a 6 year old animal. Similarly, it will be a judgement on what is 6 or not 6. Realistically, they will use scientific criteria, but it still has a judgement aspect to it. No different than any of the biological sciences.

I will be at SCI/Reno and will try and push this to what little influence I may have.

Oryxhunter,

I agree with you to some extent, but the vast majority of folks that you will need to convince are not hunters and will never be any closer to a lion than watching "The Lion King." Having a statement that hunters attempt to practice best practices as they are known at the time does help us with the fence sitters. As in the gun control debate here in the US, you need to get people to where they will listen to factual data before they will even begin to see you have a point. That requires being seen as reasonable. If we can make it obvious that the antis are unreasonable, we've won 3/4 of the battle.

While I don't see the "definition" as being 100%, it certainly is better than anything else I have seen, including, especially, "the status quo is fine."

Oryx,

You and I are not in disagreement. Maybe on some small points but we are on the same page. I agree that the anti's just want all hunting stopped, regardless of the conservation benefits. Whether or not we will be able to persevere in winning the conservation battle with the scientific fact based argument over the emotional argument (enabled further by massive funding) remains to be seen but doesn't hold much hope in light of the recent developments in Bots and Zam.

I just want to clear one item however and that is that I do care about the PH's livelihoods. My comment was that a longer term view that may (or may not at this point) help keep the lion off of the Endangered list will ultimately be more beneficial to the outfitters financial well being than simply shooting a marginal cat "this year". Furthermore, passing on a marginal lion does not mean that is the only opportunity to sell that lion for the season. This is evidenced by the lion I took this year as the previous hunt for him failed to connect. Of course that opens another can of worms concerning lion hunting but I'm speaking from the standpoint of operators who conduct their business above board.

Folks - Its very simple! Our definition is simply a guideline/conservation message. One that is quickly gaining traction, and one that is helping the lion - beyond what Lane or I could ever describe on this Forum.

Oryx - please by all means, if this or any part of the message does not meet your criteria. Feel free to gather the world's leading lion scientists, industry experts, etc - and create your own lion hunting conservation message. Then, get a leading hunting organization/conservation group to adopt it. I assure you, it was EASY!

Then, you can champion for the shooting of any lion you feel is acceptable. You can champion for any message you find acceptable - and you can champion organizations like DSC to accept any/all trophies you/your group finds acceptable.

Wouldn't that be a more productive route to take?

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
I don't believe the debate on lion hunting ban hinges on the age of lions harvested. They would prefer they die of old age than hunters shoot them for 100ks of $$$ goin to conservation, education, etc. setting an age will not satisfy the antis. Only a total ban will.

A couple of things in regards to the ESA uplist potential:

1) It DIRECTLY hinges on the age of the lion harvested.

2) We are negotiating with USF&W to see our side. We are NOT trying to convince HSUS, Born Free, other antis, etc of anything...as we ALL know they will only settle for total ban.

Then lastly...it is easy to sort lion skulls into 4 or less, 5-6's, and 6 and greater than.

No one (including Craig Packer) wants to confiscate or deny a trophy award to a legitimate 5 year old lion and 5+'s will be treated as 6's. 6 was settled on as a margin of safety to keep the 4+'s being passed through as 'close-enough'.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
I don't believe the debate on lion hunting ban hinges on the age of lions harvested. They would prefer they die of old age than hunters shoot them for 100ks of $$$ goin to conservation, education, etc. setting an age will not satisfy the antis. Only a total ban will.

A couple of things in regards to the ESA uplist potential:

1) It DIRECTLY hinges on the age of the lion harvested.

2) We are negotiating with USF&W to see our side. We are NOT trying to convince HSUS, Born Free, other antis, etc of anything...as we ALL know they will only settle for total ban.

Then lastly...it is easy to sort lion skulls into 4 or less, 5-6's, and 6 and greater than.

No one (including Craig Packer) wants to confiscate or deny a trophy award to a legitimate 5 year old lion and 5+'s will be treated as 6's. 6 was settled on as a margin of safety to keep the 4+'s being passed through as 'close-enough'.

Thanks Lane, well said!

Aaron,
I know your struggles to start a conservation program and getting governments, associations and people to endorse your work! I'm not against your ideology what so ever, I think it's great to try and set a best practices plan. I just wonder how solid "on the paw" judgment of lions age will be? And how will you implement it on a large scale.

My questioning isn't meant to be derogatory in nature, I'm just asking you the questions I would ask if I was part of usfw. Just like at the awcf meeting 2 yrs ago when someone asked if there was a definitive way to age a lion on the paw between 4-7 along the fringe! The answer by top lion researchers were "no".

I'm not against you or lane, just asking an obvious question. Congrats on getting Dallas' support! They are a great group and certainly an awesome partner. I certainly wish you continued success and hopefully usfw will not move in the same direction as the polar bear!