This sort of crap is what hunters will be up against in the future.

CNN Article

Not being able to afford hunting is a big factor around here, when you have to pay 5000.00 per gun for a good deer lease it makes it impossible for a working man to take his son hunting.

The strongest anti-hunting group in the US is the USFWS. There is one problem to fix right there.

Jerry, isn't there any public land in Texas?

It is not only money, it is the bullshit you have to put up with from the feds and the fish and game departments.

When I used to hunt the early teal season there were more federal agents there than there were teal. There are so many f*****g regulations at the one public hunting area that it takes a day just to read them all, much less be able to interpret them.

At the same area, the game dept. does everything they can to make sure you don't kill anything. They are always late filling the basins with water, you can only hunt geese til noon (the frigging geese ain't stupid), the agents all have the standard bureaucrat attitude, and hence the duck and geese kill has dropped off to nil, and they wonder why no one goes hunting! What a laugh.

And it is all about money as stated in that article. The agents run around trying to give tickets for anything they can find or supposedly found. Kansas opens the pheasant season early so they can get the Nebraska hunters money too for opening day.

I railed into three or four Kansas agents at Cabelas one day when they were there pimping for licenses (license fees). I truly believe they didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about.

For whatever reason, the basic premise is to hassle hunters and fisherme and keep them from being successful. Maybe they are former PETA employees. And is it any wonder hunting and fishing revenues decrease?

It is a fact that natural habitat is dwindling.

It is a fact that an ever increasing share of the population is raised in urban rather than rural areas.

It is a fact that most of the natural habitat in the United States is on land owned by the Federal government and State governments.

It is pretty easy to see where a trend would go in the above mentioned context and if there are fewer of the hunter's own kids being taken along on hunts, the trend will not be reversed.

One of my main beefs. $5000.00 for a deer lease $5000.00 for a duck lease, when will it stop? I'll tell you when. It will end when there are no hunters to pay these ridiculous rates. The next generation having been excluded from going hunting by the rules of these ridiculous leases, one gun per membership, no guests. No kids in camp no wives in camp. The younger generation will be happier with nintendo than nature. What a bunch of horse***t! These measuring tape jockeys ridiculing the kid with his first buck " that would have been a good deer next year". Don't forget our wonderful landowners making a substantial part of their living off of a natural resource that belongs to every one in our State while getting tax relief under a wildlife or agricultural exemption. Yes thats right we even subsidize these people through our taxes. Last but definately most, "Outfitters" these cretins that make a living off of our wildlife by leasing up all the land in large blocks at exhorbitant prices. Lease a duck pond for $5,000.00 per season, run 4 hunters a day through the blind a $150.00 a day and working man is out of his lease pretty quick 8.33 days of this to be exact, most of our East Texas marsh is gone for the family and group leases. What do these people do to help hunting absolutely nothing, except of course exclude the average hunters and their kids. The state should tax the people making money off our natural resources to pay for access to quality lands that the public can use. They should open more of the refuges that hunters have paid for for the use of hunters.
A landowner high fences his property to produce better quality deer, that sounds reasonable right. Wrong, then he hires a biologist that tells him he has to remove surplus deer and our Parks and wildlife Department issues the extra tags under their MLD program to them and what do they do you ask? They sell them, or they harvest them themselves, these people build a high fence to restrain YOUR animals, animals that belong to everyone in the State and what happens. These same people that are in effect stealing your animals by trapping them our Parks and wildlife Department are rewarding them by allowing these same people to harvest more deer than the average Joe..... I am sure there will be plenty of flack coming after this rant. But it's the way it is and I do not much care for it.
Let fly.

Howdy JTEX,

I understand your frustration but I think you have not directed your rage accurately. I think you have a lot to learn on land ownership and ownership rights.

Whether you or me like it, it is our problem to make more money to continue paying for leases or for us to come up with enough money that we can own our own property. If we can not afford it then we do need to find cheeper hobbies. Those dudes you hate that are making all that lease and hunt money are not robbing those hunters. Those hunters freely pay for it. Don't expect them to quit charging higher without some major shift in the US economy.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Jerry, isn't there any public land in Texas?

Texas is 98% privately owned! You pay, or you don't play! I hunt non-resident, in New Mexico, where there is still 36,000,000 acres of public land, and I can't afford to hunt in my own state. Hell for what a good lease costs in Texas, I can go to Africa, on a plains game hunt cheaper!

Residents can buy a public land license for about $65 that gives you access to public land, and private land that the TPW has contracted for, but as Bill says the regulations are sometimes so restrictive, that people don't want to hunt! In one area on the Trinity River between Palestine, TX, and Corsicana, TX is good bottomland with lots of game, but on the 2000 acres, you are restricted to a shotgun, muzzleloader, or bow. I had to buy a muzzle loading double rifle so I could hunt it with a double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Howdy JTEX,

I understand your frustration but I think you have not directed your rage accurately. I think you have a lot to learn on land ownership and ownership rights.

Whether you or me like it, it is our problem to make more money to continue paying for leases or for us to come up with enough money that we can own our own property. If we can not afford it then we do need to find cheeper hobbies. Those dudes you hate that are making all that lease and hunt money are not robbing those hunters. Those hunters freely pay for it. Don't expect them to quit charging higher without some major shift in the US economy.

I agree with a great deal of what you've stated here. The people who are charging the high prices aren't bad guys they are just making what the market will bare. If I could get 5000.00 for a deer head I would certainly charge that much. The majority of hunters used to be lower middle income and up. The problem is, the cost of hunting has gone up much, much faster than this group of hunter's incomes have gone up. The cost goes up so fast they can't make enough extra income to keep up with it, so ultimately they just play soccer and tball instead.

Another problem I see with taking young boys hunting is "time in the field". You need a place where you can take a boy out every weekend, where he can roam around, shoot does, rabbits and learn about the outdoors. You can't make a hunter out of a boy on a three day guided deer hunt. And even if you have a deer lease nowadays, everyone has gotten so rediculous about trophy management that if every buck you shoot isn't 8 years old with all it's teeth falling out you get kicked off the lease. You need to have a place where you can take a young boy out and let him shoot a lot of stuff so he can learn how to be a hunter. I've seen it happen more than a few times in my 20+ yrs in the taxidermy business, the Dads take their kids hunting and imediately make them into trophy hunters, before they've even shot anything. What happens is after a couple of years of daddy saying "Oh, don't shoot that one he's not OLD enough" they get bored and quit going. I've even seen several adults over the years get into the "I won't shoot another buck unless he's bigger than the last one I shot" mode,and after a fews years of not shooting anything they stop hunting. I can name 1/2 doz of my old customers who have done this very thing. Just guessing I would say the number of mounts I do for hunters 16yrs old and under is less than 1 per 100. When I first opened it was 10 times that, and it's consistantly gone down every year.

OK boys, but don't paint the whole country with a Texas brush. Here in Pa. we have hunderd of thousands of acres for public hunting. People still complain too many hunters afield, especially on the first day of deer season. It is not as bad as it use to be when we put 1,000,000 hunters in the woods of the first day - lead flew on public ground. I guess I am lucky to have 160 acres for my son and friends to hunt deer. Oh yea there are about 6 of us the first day and no one feels crowded.

Ordinarily, I just read and shake my head at the uninformed comments like proferred by smarterthannobody and will, but this time I think I'll contribute my 2 cents - knowing full well that all the truth in the world won't change their opinions.

I work for the USFWS. It is not anti-hunting. On the refuge I manage, we offer hunting for geese, quail, rabbit, and deer. I, like most refuge managers, have worked hard over the years to increase the number of hunts and the amount of land available for the public to hunt.

Goose hunts have been offered on this refuge for 25 years, and each year the number of hunters drops. It isn't because of money (blind fees are $10 per day for a party of 3). It isn't because of harassment by staff or public. It isn't because of any anti-hunting sentiment. Most of us got into this field because we enjoy hunting and fishing.

The crap we have to go through to open new hunts is tremendous. It isn't generated by our agency - it is requirements demanded by congress or the courts in response to anti-hunting groups. I spent a year writing Hunt Plans, Environmental Assessments, Compatibility Determinations, Section 7 Endangered Species Consultations, Findings of No Significant Impact, and a host of other documents to open this refuge to deer and feral hog hunting. Two years later, the Humane Society files a lawsuit and finds some judge in Washington to agree with them - and I'm right back where I started. I had to completely re-write all the documents to show that I had considered all of the cumulative impacts of the hunts offered by the Service in my decisions.

Meanwhile, the 50 kids and 20 adults that are scheduled to hunt are in limbo as they await the final outcome. In a state that is 98% privately owned, we offer hunting to folks who don't have a chance to hunt elsewhere.

And the opening package that I put together to begin hunting turkeys on the refuge - its on hold too. Same #$%^&* thing. I'd be happy to send a copy of the documents to anybody who thinks they know something about me or the folks I work for.

I bust my ass every day for hunters - gladly. Don't act like you know me or my agency. You're misinformed.

with you 100%, jtex.

Allrighty Mr Acer You asked for it.

I am sure you get the same treatment from USFWS assholes as the rest of us lesser thans since you are on the ins with them. The fact is they are a bunch of zealots and will do anything to screw over honest citizens and stand in the way of capitolism stemming from hunting that they can. Try importing an animal product into this country sometime and look at the crapshoot statistics you have to take on whether you are granted to have it. Those complaints above about all the rules and bullshit people are going through to be on hunt on your sacred hunting grounds aren't made up. Why don't you try taking off your self serving USFWS badge and try playing with the rest of us poor civilians that have to get crapped on by USFWS. I can believe that in your heart you want what is best for the hunting community, and the USFWS could use several more thousand people like you, but don't think you aren't biased with the crap you just posted. Look at the mismanagement of Yellowstone if you want one of thier finest examples of screw the hunter disease they have been infected with. By the way, I was offered job opportunities straight out of college for work with USFWS and one reason I did not take these jobs was a lack of hunters that work for them. I have seen, with my own eyes, USFWS officials abuse and violate my own, and other peoples civil rights and not care in the least bit. We have crates getting taken by USFWS monthly now here in Houston because some lazy ass doesn't want to have to deal with the hassle of his job, so he slaps a siezure on it and sends it up the line for someone else to deal with. Meanwhile every case gets thrown out 12 weeks later and we still get the work but the money got tied up for 12 weeks. Government employees don't understand things like deadlines, cash flow, and responsiblities because they rarely have had to deal with those issues themselves so they don't realy care about we that do.

None the less I hope you succeed in your efforts to bring hunting to some folks.

The article was on the front page of our newspaper here in Las Vegas this past weekend.

Acer,

Your apparent efforts to improve the situation for hunters on your refuge is appreciated. I have no doubt your efforts are sincere and well intentioned. I also have no doubt you are not alone among USFWS employees.

Please recognize that the other extreme exists within your organization as well. There are some real anti-hunting wack jobs employed by the government. I suspect the "average" USFWS employee falls squarely in the middle. Overall, the agency does not seem to be aligned in favor of hunters. I believe this is a change from the past (distant past?). I'm sure this is a direct result of political influences, as well as the morass of beaucracy that your post details. While these problems may not all stem directly from your agency, they are clearly "big government" related. And I realize there is little you can do about it as an individual.

Thanks again for your efforts. It is easy to see how the USFWS is heading down the wrong path, and I'm sure it would get there even faster without people like you sticking a finger in the dike.

Bill

Smarter?than,

I do run the same gauntlet that everyone else on this forum runs when I hunt in Africa. I have dealt with the same paperwork that everyone complains about on this forum when I try to import hunting trophys. I am "one of us civilians" - I don't get any special treatment.

You mentioned Yellowstone - that is a national PARK - not part of the Fish and Wildlife Service. They have their own problems, but you can't condemn a government agency because you confuse it with another.

You can paint everybody in the Service with a broad brush stroke if it is convenient for you, but I would choose to evaluate folks on their own merit. I would never say that everyone from Houston is an asshole.

quote:

Howdy JTEX,

I understand your frustration but I think you have not directed your rage accurately. I think you have a lot to learn on land ownership and ownership rights.

Whether you or me like it, it is our problem to make more money to continue paying for leases or for us to come up with enough money that we can own our own property. If we can not afford it then we do need to find cheeper hobbies. Those dudes you hate that are making all that lease and hunt money are not robbing those hunters. Those hunters freely pay for it. Don't expect them to quit charging higher without some major shift in the US economy.

smarter
I understand landownership well and I also understand ownership rights as well. But most importantly I understand that we are firmly planted in the good old U. S. of A. where unlike Europe the game animals belong to We the People they are NOT property of the land owner so when the landowner fences in NATIVE game he is stealing from the rest of the citzens. If they want to high fence their exotics fine but NO native game should be thus restrained. Pods, I got plenty of money to be able to do what I want but I know many that do not. And it is just wrong to see something as important as our hunting heritage taken from these future generations. I am not worried about myself nor my family. But picture a single Mom whose child wants to experience hunting. I take several kids every year, to my hunting leases and provide them the experience. Don't presume to tell me what I don't understand. THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE A LIVING OFF OF OUR NATURAL RESOURCES SHOULD HAVE TO PAY THE PUBLIC BACK FOR WHAT THEY TAKE. Carpenters have to pay for the lumber they use, writers have to pay for the paper they write on. Out fitters and land owners should be required to pay for their raw materials as well.

Acer,

Your response informative.

Thanks for taking the time to invest $0.02.

Personally, I thought it was worth a heck of lot more.

Even here in Nacogdoches, Texas the Cox News Service ran it as front page foder. Our town is 25,000 pop. I have seen similar stories in the last few days in several media sources. A forward movement by those on the other side.

Be careful painting the US Fish and Wildlife Service with an "anti" brush. I hunt with two USFWS guys and they are the cream of the crop. I have been to Washington to lobby for a new national wildlife refuge in my state and found them to be very helpful and pro-hunting.

In Texas, I found the same thing with the TPWD and the USFWS. They were helpful and supportive of our conservation and hunting efforts.

I have also found that if we, as law abiding hunters, follow the rules of hunting or importing trophies to the US, you have no problems. Filling out forms is a hassle but part of life in 2007.

I have not experienced the circumstance noted by "smarterthanu" but assume that tact and diplomacy could have solved the issue. My potential nightmare experience occurred in Houston in customs when one of the guns I was bringing back still had a round in the magazine. The customs lady got a bit excited and I pleaded abject ignorance and blamed the Zimbabwean officials for not inspecting the rifles. I got by with a slight scolding.

On the issue of the cost of hunting increasing - that is life and how it will be in the future. The cost of everything except computers has gone up. But so has my salary and lifestyle.

Hunting in the US is evolving - it will follow the path of hunting in Europe as it must. We are not subsistance hunters and I dare say that, except for extremely remote areas, meat is cheaper at the store than to hunt, when all costs are considered. The days are long gone where we head off into the prairie and hunt as Teddy Roosevelt did. It is over and will not return. Adapt and enjoy it is the best advice you can get.

quote:

the game animals belong to We the People they are NOT property of the land owner

HUh? Sorry I just don't understand this. The animals belong to US, but I can't hunt them because the land belongs to someone else. So, do I just shoot them when they cross the road? Well I can't do that either. Sorry Jtex, but as you point out this is the USA.
The article was reprinted in my local paper as well. The article for those that take the time to read it, points out that there are fewer hunting licenses issued and offers several possible reasons why. They obviously missed the the answers offered on this forum ie. It's the governments fault and it's the anti-hunters fault.
Peter.

Sport and trophy hunting has for centuries been the sport of nobility and the extreme wealthy in most of the world; it may be on its way back to being the same way. Look at any of the old pictures of trophy rooms, they were in mansions and estates. When I was growing up, I didn't know anyone who had a trophy room. I guess we all had best hunt while we still can.

This is the first year ever....since I have been hunting 26 years....that I have not gone dove hunting opening weekend.

Reason was my old haunts where I could hunt for free got offered money for their land and they took it(cannot blame the landowners). Normally I would have payed the $50 a day for some good hunting but this year my wife and I payed more $$$ than ever for a deer lease and our recreation money is GONE.

Got on the new lease because another landowner crawfished on his word for the next 4 years and nearly doubled the price of his lease. We left and paid another man in the area more money just for the priciple of him not backing our agreement.

If we do not find a cheaper place next year, we will not be hunting.

We try our luck on the type 1 drawings here in TX and get drawn on occasion. I would never take my wife on any of the type II hunting land. Did that for 5 years right out of High School and had more bullets and arrows(LITERALLY) fly over my head and saw more pot smoking in camp than BBQing.

I think in 5 years my dad and I got 3 bucks and numerous hogs but the constant worry of our safety and having the truck broken into put a damper on things.

Kyle

quote:

Originally posted by RBHunt:
Sport and trophy hunting has for centuries been the sport of nobility and the extreme wealthy in most of the world; it may be on its way back to being the same way. Look at any of the old pictures of trophy rooms, they were in mansions and estates. When I was growing up, I didn't know anyone who had a trophy room. I guess we all had best hunt while we still can.

I'm afraid even the Royals will never have it as it was. The "Greenies" are everywhere:

Siberian Stag Hunt

One of the biggest mistakes folks make is confusing the USFS with National Parks. They are as different, particularly people wise, as night and day.

I have never had an issue with anyone from USFS. That's not to say that others haven't had their problems with them, but it has not been my experience.

National Parks - that's another story. You'd swear they were funded by George Soros rather than the American taxpayer. You cannot even legally possess a firearm in an area run by Parks. Ironic that it was Teddy Roosevelt that started the national parks program.

Hunting leases are indeed expensive. But in states such as Texas with little state public land, it's a fact of life. Let's not forget that property taxes here are high. A trade off for no state income tax. If you leave the land in a wild state, you still pay the property tax on it. In most cases, the lease fees help too cover a portion of the property taxes. And even if the place is a working farm, most farmers cut it pretty close financially. A lease is a way of offsetting the cost and helping guys keep their prices in line with food imports from places such as Mexico.

We have to pay to play. But keep in mind that those fees go to helping a wild area from becoming a condo development or helping a family farmer cut some of his operating costs to allow him to stay in operation.

Another aspect of the USFWS is the different parts of it..... Refuges, Edangered species, law enforecment. I would say that a lot of Refuge staffs are pro-hunting. I wouldn't say the same for endangered species people or even some of the research staff.

My father was a refuge manager and tried for years to open one refuge to deer hunting.....I think it took 7 or 8 years from start to the first hunt and that was 20 years ago, I can't imagine what it would be like today.

If I lived in Texas I can't imagine hunting big game for the prices they charge. I would probably be one of those texans that hunts colorado and is hated/loved/barely tolerated by the locals.

Thank you foe speaking up Acer...there are some people that have made their mids up and you won't change their attitudes but there are a lot of people of this site that are willing to read what you write and base their opinions on something other than hearsay or one bad experience.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
But most importantly I understand that we are firmly planted in the good old U. S. of A. where unlike Europe the game animals belong to We the People they are NOT property of the land owner so when the landowner fences in NATIVE game he is stealing from the rest of the citzens. If they want to high fence their exotics fine but NO native game should be thus restrained.

I realize this may not be central to the discussion but in France game is "res nullus", it isn't anybody's property, unless it is contained within a high wall property of a certain size. Animals, whether small game (wildfowl, hares, etc.) or big game (wild boar, stag, roe deer) do not belong to anyone whether found on a farm or in a forest, which comprises the bulk of hunting in France. I don't know what the legal status of game in other countries within Europe.

Your first Acer!

"You mentioned Yellowstone - that is a national PARK - not part of the Fish and Wildlife Service. They have their own problems,"

USFWS granted the permits to bring the wolves into Yellowstone and then controlled all wolf populations leaving Yellowstone like they had done with exiting bison in previous years. Subsequent mismanagement ruined the surrounding elk hunting areas for hunters.

"You can paint everybody in the Service with a broad brush stroke if it is convenient for you"

Did I say everyone in USFWS is bad? No I said USFWS is bad. That is a perfectly reasonable statement. Like a typical brainwashed government employee you thought this was a personel attack when it is a "business" attack against the whole service. People who are stuck in a job with a bunch of crappy people either try and change the group for the better, conform to the crappiness or leave. Don't attack the person who says the service is crappy. Reach above your head sir and pull that string. It is probably a light switch.

Howdy JTEX now its your turn.

"I understand landownership well and I also understand ownership rights as well. But most importantly I understand that we are firmly planted in the good old U. S. of A."

Obviously you don't understand. Title to property within the state of Texas is held through the state of Texas therefore they decide your rights and not the good old USA. This is not the same for the rest of the US. In the state of Texas Wildlife excluding animals classified as chattle belong to the State of Texas. This rule does not apply for all states int the USA.

"THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE A LIVING OFF OF OUR NATURAL RESOURCES SHOULD HAVE TO PAY THE PUBLIC BACK FOR WHAT THEY TAKE."

This is one of the dumbest blanket statements I have ever seen on this forum. If this is true then why would anybody ever own the rights to a peace of land. You wouldn't even be able to have that precious deer lease you speek of if this statement was true. This is socialism that you are talking about. Whether you like it or not we live in a capitolist society that promotes "ownership, development, and self worth. Obviously you have lost touch with your good old USA.

"Carpenters have to pay for the lumber they use, writers have to pay for the paper they write on. Out fitters and land owners should be required to pay for their raw materials as well."

They do! Just because thier payments don't get deposited directly into the account of JTEX does not mean they are not paying overhead like your other examples. Don't hate people because they are making money off of thier property.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
One of the biggest mistakes folks make is confusing the USFS with National Parks. They are as different, particularly people wise, as night and day.

I have never had an issue with anyone from USFS. That's not to say that others haven't had their problems with them, but it has not been my experience.

National Parks - that's another story. You'd swear they were funded by George Soros rather than the American taxpayer. You cannot even legally possess a firearm in an area run by Parks. Ironic that it was Teddy Roosevelt that started the national parks program.

Hunting leases are indeed expensive. But in states such as Texas with little state public land, it's a fact of life. Let's not forget that property taxes here are high. A trade off for no state income tax. If you leave the land in a wild state, you still pay the property tax on it. In most cases, the lease fees help too cover a portion of the property taxes. And even if the place is a working farm, most farmers cut it pretty close financially. A lease is a way of offsetting the cost and helping guys keep their prices in line with food imports from places such as Mexico.

We have to pay to play. But keep in mind that those fees go to helping a wild area from becoming a condo development or helping a family farmer cut some of his operating costs to allow him to stay in operation.

This is all true about helping the wild areas, cutting operating costs and so on but that doesn't help the fact that the increases in the price of hunting are far out pacing inflation and the wages of the middle imcome working man, which as the largest group of hunters, has been the backbone of the hunting industry. If hunting becomes only for the upperclass then we will lose it.

Federal and state bureaucracies are run by..... bureaucrats, not hunters and fisherman.

Having spent most of my life in Texas and much of it in Idaho..I see two different cultures and both have good and bad points and you could write a book on both..Mostly I have seen that neither of them know much about the other, and make judgements based on he said, she said...

You do not pay to shoot game animals on Texas land, you pay to trespass on private land, not any govt. office can officiate that..That land belongs to someone just like the house you live in belongs to you, the owner has upkeep and he does all the management on that land and the upkeep for deer is considerable..He does a better job of management than the Forest Service or BLm of Idaho or the Pacific North West..

The open land in the Pacific Northwest is poorly managed by comparison, and to some degree because of the more complex problems of managing game in the cold countries and the influence of govt officials, politicians, and the people in general, the end results sucks, then their is the wolves and the folks in Ivory towers that micro manage our govt. land and on and on....

Haveing been involved over the years with both, I think I like the Texas deal the best. If I pay a guide in Idaho for a deer hunt, my odds are about 20% at best, and it cost like hell... In Texas on a low fenced ranch they run very close to 100%, and by the time I drive from one state to another and count my expenses its about a push, especially with the price of fuel these days..

I can hunt whitetail in Texas for $2500. and get one, I cannot drive from Texas to NM and back, hunt a week and maybe get a deer for that. I have done it both ways. I know you cannot drive to Idaho from Texas and do a hunt for $2500. You can drive to the Big Bend and shoot a good Mule Deer for less than that if you do your homework..

I have only touched the surface of this conversation, but the point is that it's not always greener on the other side of the fence.

However, all that said, I don't have to pay to hunt in Texas as I have many friends and relitives there that allow me to hunt free, and I think most folks that live in smaller communities have friends that allow them to hunt. At least that has been my experiences, growing up in far West Texas..

Just the other side of the coin for what its worth....

Comes down to this you want to hunt private land and don't own any...then you pay for the privledge. Or go hunt the crowded pubvlic land. doesn't matter if you live in Texas or Pennsylvania most of the good hunting land is where access is limited.
The landowners have every right to make a dollar off their land. Be it with corn, cattle or deer. The Gov't controled lands thruout the country mostly suck until you get to where there is enough of it that most guys can't reach the middle without horses.
What pisses me off isn't the high fees outfitters charge to hunt public land but that some ignorant SOB is always willing to pay more...look at Montana and their NR licence fees for landowner guaranteed deer tags, what are they now about $800 or so? Then the landowner takes you out across his land to landlocked BLM lands to hunt. Toss in another $3500-$4000 PP for a 6 day hunt and travel from the east coast for a father and his two sons and you're well looking at $15000 + to take your boys hunting . That my pals is a chunk of change for a working man to drop so he can take his boys mulie hunting for a week each year.
I agree with the poster whom said that hunting is for the wealthy. Unless you are lucky enough and content to hunt on a few hundred acres of family land for a whitetail here in the east. And as if that isn't bad enough the assholes that run the PGC are hell bent on lowering deer numbers to the point it is hard to show your kids a few deer to shoot at in a week's hard hunting.
The future is not very bright here in the USA. That's why I started to hunt in Africa to begin with. Now it would appear with the current mess in Tanzania and Zambia, surely to be followed by other African countries, that too will price itself out of reach of many.

I own free and clear three west Texas ranches. My paying hunters are encouraged to bring their wives and children out to hunt at no cost but not their father in law, cousin, brother etc. etc. as all that gets out of hand way too quick. The fee I charge is for tresspass on my personal property and not for a deer turkey, dove or quail. As a father of 2 grown children and 4 grand daughters I am doing my best to make sure the hunting and shooting traditions are carried on.
My family has a big family gun shoot and deer hunt each Thanksgiving and at other times too. Each year I ask others to come and hunt my ranches with me as my guest but often those people never seem to have the time. Then others are put off because they are not allowed by me to shoot a trophy buck but are allowed a cull buck or a doe.
As already stated the property taxes are high (mine are + _ $16,000.00 a year and going up each year) You can not pay the ranch expenses of today just with the income from livestock only. You must have help from oil, gas, hunting or wind farms in order to make it in ranching today.
I have never increased my tresspass fee on my hunters. I pay for the electric they use, water and I have put in septic systems for their trailers etc. at no charge.
I have a game biologist and fly a helicopter survey each year with that biologist. All that is out of my pocket too.
No way in hell do I want you coming onto my propety to hunt, leave your trash, bottles,my gates open, your toilet paper and poop on my land, burn up my property with your camp fire or cigarette.
I don't want bullets whizzing here and there and esp. around my ranch house and barns, holes in my water tanks or the tails of my windmills where you took target practice... I know none of you professional shooters and meat hunters would do such as that. It is always somebody else or so I have heard.
If you want to know the reason it cost to hunt in Texas then buy a ranch or farm and just open the gates for all to come and hunt and see what events take place. It will not be long for you to get an attitude adjustment.
I have had gates removed from the hinges for people to get in and when I welded the hinges around the gatepost they cut the fence so they could drive in instead. I have lost both horses and cattle to supposedly stray gunshots. Then plastic shotgun hulls laying on the ground are most attractive and really nice when you find one inside a cow at the same time the vets secretary is handing you the vet bill while he sews up old Betsy.
Sure takes the fun out of trying to be nice and let folks that are not land owners get a hunting experience.

Howdy JTEX now its your turn.


"Obviously you don't understand. Title to property within the state of Texas is held through the state of Texas therefore they decide your rights and not the good old USA. This is not the same for the rest of the US. In the state of Texas Wildlife excluding animals classified as chattle belong to the State of Texas. This rule does not apply for all states int the USA".

Who does the State of Texas belong to??? Does it not belong to the people of the State of Texas. Hence Public, does not the Public own the property of the State of Texas???


"This is one of the dumbest blanket statements I have ever seen on this forum. If this is true then why would anybody ever own the rights to a peace of land. You wouldn't even be able to have that precious deer lease you speek of if this statement was true. This is socialism that you are talking about. Whether you like it or not we live in a capitolist society that promotes "ownership, development, and self worth. Obviously you have lost touch with your good old USA".

First and foremost I thought this forum was for debate and learning, why, I have to wonder why you would resort to calling an opinion, nothing more, nothing less, " the Dumbist thing you ever saw posted" is it possibly an inferior intellect or just a self worth issue?

I am also completely lost with the part about socialism? What does giving fair compensation to the public for the use of a natural resource have to do with socialism? The roads you drive on are owned by the State, hence public, but you pay use tax. If you stay in a state park you pay a use tax.

The State of Texas has set a bag limit on Deer if you take more than allowed you are stealing from the State of Texas, hence the public. If you happen to own the land you hunt on and it's not high fenced and under an MLD program you personnaly, still are allowed only the same number of deer as someone hunting on state or leased land. Deer ( native game animals ) belong to the public. So why should any one be allowed to make commercial use of a public resource with out just compensation????
I am not too sure I ever said my deer lease was "precious", heck I'm not too sure it's even good, but I am allowed to take my family and guests. In that I am indeed fortunate, but then I would not be on a lease without being able to take my children.

You also mentioned "Rage" in an earlier post. I don't feel any rage at all. I lack rage in this matter, but I don't lack apathy for this situation. The original line of this thread was by the way "A Disturbing Trend". I want hunting to continue for all the future generations, I feel that it is a right not a privledge. Just as gun ownership is a right not a privledge.
"Carpenters have to pay for the lumber they use, writers have to pay for the paper they write on. Out fitters and land owners should be required to pay for their raw materials as well."
The market hunters made a living off waterfowl and look where that took us. Duck hunting was almost lost, heck waterfowl were almost lost. Where are the passenger pigeons. In the Gulf of Mexico the Commercial Red Snapper fishermen are still taking tons a year and a recreational fisherman is allowed 2 per day? The commercial shrimpers in Galveston bay are dragging their nets over ever square foot of shimpable bay floor 6 times a year as reported by CCA, killing tons of juvenile fin fish, making a living off of our natural resources. You can walk across some parts of Trinity bay on the commercial crab trap floats, but try crabbing some time and see how many you get.
What do they put back? What do they do to compensate the public for what is taken?

"Just because thier payments don't get deposited directly into the account of JTEX does not mean they are not paying overhead like your other examples."

This is another statement that leads me to believe that maybe you didn't understand what was posted earlier. I don't need or want the the restitution. I would wish that the restitution be used to provide quality hunting areas for those that did not have the means or the ability.

"Don't hate people because they are making money off of thier property".

Again, I don't "hate" anyone! I especially don't hate people for making a living. But I don't think it's right to make a living off of something that belongs to the public with out restitution to the public.

quote:

Who does the State of Texas belong to??? Does it not belong to the people of the State of Texas

No it does not! There is your problem right there. You have a giant misconception that the state of Texas belongs to "the people" when it does not.

"First and foremost I thought this forum was for debate and learning, why, I have to wonder why you would resort to calling an opinion, nothing more, nothing less, " the Dumbist thing you ever saw posted" is it possibly an inferior intellect or just a self worth issue?"

When some one wants to use the "Good old USA" to argue on behalf of socialism I get pretty serious. If you want that Lifestyle be My guest and hustle your butt down to Venezuela.

"The State of Texas has set a bag limit on Deer if you take more than allowed you are stealing from the State of Texas, hence the public. If you happen to own the land you hunt on and it's not high fenced and under an MLD program you personnaly, still are allowed only the same number of deer as someone hunting on state or leased land. Deer ( native game animals ) belong to the public."

The price of purchase for the hunting license is the compensation to The State of Texas. Maybe you would like for that to be a few thousand dollars more each time for your socialist Utopia. By the way the MLD rules you quoted are no longer correct.

"So why should any one be allowed to make commercial use of a public resource with out just compensation????"

Because they own the rights to the property!!!! WHat can you not understand about property ownership??? Maybe bird watchers should be allowed in your back yard anytime they want to look at the birds in your feeder since they belong to "the public". How about that. Are you going to like that???

"The market hunters made a living off waterfowl and look where that took us. Duck hunting was almost lost, heck waterfowl were almost lost. Where are the passenger pigeons. In the Gulf of Mexico the Commercial Red Snapper fishermen are still taking tons a year and a recreational fisherman is allowed 2 per day? The commercial shrimpers in Galveston bay are dragging their nets over ever square foot of shimpable bay floor 6 times a year as reported by CCA, killing tons of juvenile fin fish, making a living off of our natural resources. You can walk across some parts of Trinity bay on the commercial crab trap floats, but try crabbing some time and see how many you get.
What do they put back? What do they do to compensate the public for what is taken?"

And what in the hell does any of those examples have to do with the rights of PRIVATE land owners?

JTEX you have a piss poor outlook on other peoples rights. A word for the wise: Those other people that get those rights believe just as much in your rights and the day your socialist plan goes through and they don't have a right to land ownership anymore or you tax the hell out of them for trying to turn a profit off of hunting I gaurantee you ewill have even fewer opportunities to hunt. Because the landowners, if there are any left, will tell all the assholes who were too worried about not getting thier "fair share", to piss off and don't come around here looking to hunt.

Like I said your precious hunting lease will either go throuhg the roof in price or you won't have it at all. Expecting the government to fix a private industry trend is foolishness!

Harry,

Thanks for your generosity and telling the truth about being a landowner.

I have heard a thousand stories from my sister, other family members, and friends that if I was a landowner I would close it all down to hunting forever.

Trashed fences, ruined crops(because your winter wheat field really should be a racetrack for pickups and 4 wheelers), dead livestock, trash everywhere, tools, gas, parts, etc. stolen, with the added joy of verbal abuse and threats.

We have some great hunters out there, many here on this board, but there is about 30% that are maggots and readily ruin it for everyone else.

I have places to hunt here in Montana on private land, because I have proven my friendship over the years and that I will care for their property better than they will.

Plus of course we have lots of public land and if you're willing to get out of your pickup and off your 4 wheeler and use the quads gave you, you can have some great hunting still. That is if the fires ever stop burning.

This entire article I suspect was pushed by the anti's and mud sucking media. The way it read you'd think we hunters were scared to death. I can see PEETA-CHEESE-HEADS throwing parties so Pam Anderson and Courtney Love can lick each other and expose themselves to the public: there ain't no "fur" on those gurls. It's real easy to resolve: Every Hunter in the USA sends the NRA $1.00 (I'm not into what's right or wrong with the NRA, just defending our 2nd Amd., thank you). That would give us a war chest that would shut up every foe. Just one dollar. You have to have guns if you want to hunt with them. Next, donate $1.00 to SCI. Let them continue the fight. They would gain millions overnight. Just one dollar from each and every one of us. Now, become a hunting of fishing mentor: teach Hunter Ed: visit your child's school on Parent Day. Show some form of wildlife that isn't upsetting to a child. Remember, little Timmy and Sissie are the offspring of couch potato slugs and anything other than Chicken Nuggets will frighten them. So be gentle. Let them touch a SHED antler or share pictures of live game taken with your trail camera. Point is, let them experience wildlife and nature slowly. If they take interest, they will pursue the sport. At least give them the option. Otherwise the Teacher may be an Imp of PeTa and tell them hunting is murder. Good points here, but we can make a difference. Good hunting: share the experience with a child, friend, neighbor or Grandma! LDK

Smarter?
The whole gist of this conversation was the decline of hunters and young hunter recruitment. I was trying to explain my thoughts on the decline. And my whole gist was trying to explain my views and opinions on the reason for this.

But you have kinda turned this personal.

If the State of Texas does not belong to the people of Texas then who in fact does it belong to? If the State is not owned by the citizens is it owned by the politicians? or Martians maybe? Do you think, maybe only the large landowners and the privledged few. But I would like to hear your explanation of who does in fact own the public resources of the State of Texas.

Please explain the Socialism, I would really like to understand where you are coming from. Because I don't understand how restitution for the use of a natural resource for personal gain is socialism. Is the cattleman grazing his cattle on Public land and paying for grazing rights a socialist?

What part of the MLD rules that I quoted where incorrect. Does an MLD holder not get to start the hunting season earlier? Doesn't MLD property get to start 9/29 this year, doesn't it end in February 08; unlike the regular season that starts 11/3 through 1/6/08? You mean you dont get to use auxillary State issued tags on MLD property; you only get to use 1 of the 5 tags on your license? You mean that now there is a per tag fee for these MLD tags; as there is a fee for a hunting license?

I think YOUR misunderstanding is I am not talking about property rights, I have never said that property owners should be REQUIRED to allow access to thier property, nor do I understand how you inferred this by anything I wrote. But even if you own your mineral rights and drill an oil well you will pay the State and the Feds a tax on each barrel you take out of the ground. Does property ownership confer ownership of the game animals?
If you own the property but don't own the mineral rights try keeping an oil company off your property.

My examples about about the fisheries and market hunters were examples of more people making a living off of natural resources without restitution. And how those resources have fared.

As far as the rights of other people, again, you seem to mis understand, other peoples rights are exactly what I want to defend.

As far as your word to the wise: I don't get it? It might different if the words came from the wise.......

I'm mostly retired and blew most of my bread hunting Africa, Canada and Texas, and I'm lucky enough to have a close friend who has a hunting ranch, open land, that he maintains in SC. I hunt there two or three times a year.

I certainly can't blame any ranch owner in Texas or anywhere else for charging fees to hunt on his land, particularly if he spends thousands of dollars to manage the animals that are available. It's completely justifiable and expected.

Public land hunting in Florida is very hit and miss, occasionally dangerous, and the deer are small. Most successful hunting in Florida is on private land. Turkey, wild hog, deer...they're all available at a price, like most everything else.

Now that my income has decreased, I'll just have to be content with my good luck to have a place to hunt in SC, (got a nice 6 pt opening week and the landowner didn't score, which pissed him off a bit, but not badly ), but I've had some great times in Canada, Alabama, and Texas. Who knows what the future will bring? Maybe I'll make it back to Africa one day.

As Ray Atkinson noted, things are done differently in different regions. I'd rather hunt Saskatchewan than Texas, because the deer are much bigger on open land, as are the racks, usually, and the meat is delicious. If you have to fly into either spot from the East, the prices are about the same, maybe even less in Canada. One problem is, you have to be dressed for those minus twenty degree days in Sask., but Northern Outfitters can fix you right up for about the same you'd spend on the current trendy camo for Texas, or a bit more.

My youth was spent in Alabama and Georgia and then, a long time ago, it was simply a matter of asking a friend if we could hunt his farm. Those days have almost disappeared, to all our detriment. A great American tradition is almost gone. Sad, but true. It's mainly commercial now, and we'll just have to live with that.