JTEX this is not personal. But you have been seriously misinformed of Property and Hunters rights within the state of Texas.

%98 of the states lands are privately held. And when those landowners are making money they are required by law to pay taxes on it just like your example of a barrell of oil.

Your discontent with seeing have nots and thinking by robbing landowners of money they earn and redistributing it to less fortunate people or even lazy people is a socialist agenda. It is as far from free enterprise as you can get. Does that answer your question? Maybe they can tax your enjoyment of bird watching, or touching a deer antler (as Mr. Kieth stated) or feeding a squirrel, because the have nots have been getting cheated out of thier cut for your pleasure. The facts are the landowner lets you pay him money to enter his property and hunt. That is not a gaurantee of killing an animal. The state of Texas provides that person the right to legally take a deer and "posess" the deer with the purchase of a hunting license. There is the precious cut for the "public".

By the way your MLD question: you no longer have to put your license tags with your mld permit on your deer carcass therefore you may now collect more deer than on your license through the MLD program. Also you are no longer required to print your hunting license number on an MLD tag. Your TXDL# is sufficient.

"other peoples rights are exactly what I want to defend."

This is were you have made the largest problem you have and I can see why you are lost on this issue. You believe hunting is a right. It is not. It is a privelage. Same as driving, or setting off fireworks. You can easily be stripped of this activity. Just because you are passionate about something does not make it a right.

Purchasing a hunting license in Texas allows you to hunt game animals that are REGULATED by the state. Purchasing a hunting license does not give you any property rights or take away any of my property rights. Hunting deer in Texas is a two part process. First you make a deal with the state by buying a hunting license, and next you make a deal with a property owner to enter his land to hunt. The land owner can charge whatever he sees as a fair price or refuse to allow you access at all. So it really does not matter who OWNS the deer. It matters who possesses the deer. In most places in Texas the land owner possesses the deer. Try and go on to private property in Texas to take possession of your deer without the land owner's permission and see what hppens.

Here is another thought. In Texas if you wound a deer and it crosses a property boundry then you have no right to follow it across the boundry. You must find the owner of the land you believe the deer crossed over to and get permission to enter that property to look for your deer. The owner of the property can refuse to grant that permission and you no longer have any rights to that wounded deer.

It's kinda funny how the state owns the deer except when one of "their" deer jumps out in front of your vehicle. Does the state pay your damages? Should I send the state a bill for all the food their deer eat on my property?

Mr. M16 you have made one of the better arguements on the thread. However since the State controls the laws the deer and other wild game fall within the "assumed risk" so often used in law. However chattle fall under owner resposibility and therefore liability because of thier presumed domestication and capability of control. If you drive down the road at night it is an assumed risk that you can hit wild animals. If you strike a cow, the owner has failed to take reasonable steps to control chattle and therefore is liable, unless another person Is responsible for releasing the cow.

Also good points Muletrain, but one thing left out about the Texas Hunting license is that it is mandatory for all hunted animals not just animals specified as game animals by the state.

With the exception of feral hogs committing depredations. The land owner is not required to obtain a hunting license to kill them.

Howdy,

Depredation issues for a specific land owner are the only special times when animals including game animals can be killed without license. I am pretty sure no parts of these animals can be utilized when this occurrs. However pigs and any other introduced species within the state of Texas that are hunted have to be hunted with a Texas Hunting License regaurdless of whether they are listed as a "Game Animal".

smarterthan????
That last response was kind of hard to make heads or tails of. Slow down and take a deep breath. I am going to number my questions this time try to present your answeres in a fashion that can be understood. Okay one more time here we go.

1) If the State of Texas ( public property of the State) does not belong to the people of Texas then who in fact does it belong to? If the State is not owned by the citizens is it owned by the politicians? or Martians maybe? Do you think, maybe only the large landowners and the privledged few. But I would like to hear your explanation of who does in fact own the public resources of the State of Texas.

2) Please explain the Socialism, I would really like to understand where you are coming from. Because I don't understand how restitution for the use of a natural resource for personal gain is socialism. Is the cattleman grazing his cattle on Public land and paying for grazing rights a socialist?

3) What part of the MLD rules that I quoted where incorrect. Does an MLD holder not get to start the hunting season earlier? Doesn't MLD property get to start 9/29 this year, doesn't it end in February 08; unlike the regular season that starts 11/3 through 1/6/08? You mean you dont get to use auxillary State issued tags on MLD property; you only get to use 1 of the 5 tags on your license? You mean that now there is a per tag fee for these MLD tags; as there is a fee for a hunting license?


Taxing bird watching, how is bird watching consumptive??? Funny, but you are breaking the law if you capture a native bird. But not high fencing deer in.

You are very good at leaping to the attack on another persons views, but, you are not too hot at defending your own. I may be out of line, and if you think so feel free to not answer, but how many years have you had to develop these views of yours?


M16
I think it strange that many people think deer belong to the land owner, until one is hit by a car. Then suddenly it is the States animal.

Driving along some rural roads in the Hill Country there are miles of road that have high fence on either side when deer get into one of these area they have no where to go. It is a conundrum.

quote:

Originally posted by Acer:
snip.

I would never say that everyone from Houston is an asshole.

Although you say not everyone from Houston is an asshole, I think enough has been posted here to know that there is at least one from Houston that fits the description.

JTEX,

Deer on private land are owned by the state of Texas but that does not classify them as a "public resource".

"Is the cattleman grazing his cattle on Public land and paying for grazing rights a socialist?"

No, and that statement holds zero rellevance to the issues you are discussing. Notice the word "Public Land" in your sentence. I think you can not comprehend socialism. Think of it this way in a very over-simplified term. The government in conjunction with the public know better how businesses should spend, make, and more importantly allocate profit back to the government and public. This is un-American. Like I said Venezuela might be more to your liking.

Third I allready answered were you were mistaken earlier on MLD permits go back and read. The mistake was not included in your current questions.

"Funny, but you are breaking the law if you capture a native bird. But not high fencing deer in."

Wrong again.

"You are very good at leaping to the attack on another persons views, but, you are not too hot at defending your own. I may be out of line, and if you think so feel free to not answer, but how many years have you had to develop these views of yours?"

I have been in the wildlife business for 15 years. I hold a degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences. I am a land owner. I am a wildlife owner. I spend more time in a year dealing with the legal ramifications of the wildlife business in one year than most people do in a lifetime. I think I qualify for your debate.

Mr. Douglast,

I am an asshole. But just because you don't like the truth doesn't make it any less truthful. If you want kiss-but debate stick with Oprah.

Perhaps we have become a gimme, lendme, loanme, generation. If what you have earned is good for you then you should gimme some of it, so I don't have to work for it, it's becoming expected..

What I see is folks liveing beyond their means and crying I can't afford to hunt or take my children hunting. Those same folks are living in a 300,000 home and driving a new car every year...BUT I know some others that live modestly and paying to hunt every year, so who has their priorities right, its your choice.

AND, there are quite a lot of opertunities to hunt on public land and some of that public land is excellent hunting..Many of the draw hunts in the Pacific Northwest are great hunting, but again nothing is free, it costs to do a hunt wherein you must travel long distances so I would suggest that you take that into account, it may be cheaper to pay for your venison..Shop around, Bison hunts can be had for around $1600 and that is a years supply of meat, some fairly inexpensive deer hunts are available especially if your willing to shoot a doe, and perhaps some hogs..There are some pretty good deals out there if you look for them.

BTW, they don't give beef away either, as a rule..

I don't have a magic wand to satisfy everyone out there, just some suggestions that might make a difference.

Howdy Mr. Atkinson,

You have some good points. They remind me of a story I saw in a Taxidermy shop. Guy pulls in a $50,000 hunting truck pulls out two deer heads for shoulder mts. Tells me were he got them. I know the ranch. Both are very nice deer and probably ran about $7000 appiece. He argues with taxidermist over price that "Joes" shop down the street is thirty dollars less. Nevermind "Joes taxidermy" is of much poorer quality. He can not come to agreement with taxidermist over price and picks up heads and leaves. People really have messed up priorities over money, and how they spend it.

smarter????
Damn, why didn't you just say so earlier??? It just figures, you ARE one of those that make your living off our natural resources. Now I understand!!!!

Wldlife OWNER, clearer and clearer.

"Deer on private land are owned by the state of Texas but that does not classify them as a "public resource".

You are wrong!

<You quote proudly> "I am an asshole.

'Nuff said

Atkinson,
While what you post does have a lot of merit and I agree.

What I was talking about was declining numbers of hunters and new hunter recruitment. And ways to make hunting oppurtunities more available.

And to paint the whole situation as only the people that live beyond thier means and only the lazy can't afford to hunt, is in my opinion wrong. I know quite a few young families that are working very hard to take care of thier families that can't afford a place to hunt.

I have hunted ( for several years ) and spent time in your beautiful state, not too far from you, and Idaho does have some fatastic public hunting opportunities. But Texas does not.

If the people that are making a living off of hunting do not help to give the younger generation the love of hunting that we older folks have thier source of income will be gone.

I am with you sir in the lack of a magic wand, but, if hunters don't do something hunting will go away like many of our other rights. Yes I know there are people ( but how many of you do ) think I am wrong saying Hunting is a right.

Continued apathy always leads to the diminishment of freedoms, and rights.

Like you say, just my .02 cents worth.

"It just figures, you ARE one of those that make your living off our natural resources. Now I understand!!!!"

No you don't understand. I make my money off of my own sweat and ambition servicing people who have just as much right to hunt an animal as you do. And people like me and thousands of others are the reason there is a hunting industry in Texas. You live in a state that has the best property rights laws, and the quality of our wildlife, and strength of our wildlife economy is arguably the best and strongest in the nation and you want to whine because youaren't getting a big enough cut. Maybe the other lesson you should be teaching those kids when you take them hunting is work hard so they can pay for the PRIVILAGE to hunt.

""Deer on private land are owned by the state of Texas but that does not classify them as a "public resource".

You are wrong!"

Not hardly. Not everything that belongs to the State of Texas is a public resource. If you don't believe me just go hop in a DPS vehicle and take it for a joy ride next time you see one parked with the keys in it. I'll be there to laugh at you when you walk out of Huntsville in 7-10.

"<You quote proudly> "I am an asshole"

Not proudly. Truthfully. Truth is something you apparently are having problems with.

Like I stated earlier is you believe hunting is a right. Apparently you also believe your right should be getting your cut from people who deserve the money they earn.

I think what some in this thread have failed to realize is that the "State" is an entity composed of and "owned" by the "public." The property of which others speak is a physical asset that is owned by private entities.

I live in a state that is about 50% public land (mix of BLM and USFS) and I still happily drive to Texas to shoot pigs and the odd exotic critter. Why? Because private landowners there often have the right incentive to properly manage game for the hunter. Game in my state is not managed for the hunter in most instances because we (hunters) don't really matter to the "man"...

quote:

I think what some in this thread have failed to realize is that the "State" is an entity composed of and "owned" by the "public." The property of which others speak is a physical asset that is owned by private entities.

I am not current in New Mexico Law but this is not the case for Texas. Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement though.

quote:

I am not current in New Mexico Law but this is not the case for Texas. Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement though.

This guy understands nothing!! Except that he want's to be able to make his living off of animals that belong to the people of the State.

He keeps stating that "I want a cut "? I want nothing but more recruitment of young hunters so our hunting heritage may continue on.

Not proudly. Truthfully. ( he says he's an ASSHOLE ).

ALL I CAN DO IS AGREE WITH HIM ON THIS POINT 150%

Keep on sponging off of our "Resources" I am sure you could not make any kind of living in the business world.

smarter???? As Brad Paisly sings. "You sure are cooler on line".

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

Mr. Douglast,

I am an asshole. But just because you don't like the truth doesn't make it any less truthful. If you want kiss-but debate stick with Oprah.

This is not really worth the bandwidth to respond but I couldn't resist just one more.

My pointing out that you are an a-hole has nothing to do with whether or not I like or dislike the truth. In fact, my profession is that of a truth-seeker. I also realize that people with delusions often believe they are seeing, speaking, or living the truth - yourself notwithstanding.

Finally, "but" in the context you are using it above is spelled with two "t"s.

Yes I make my some of my money off of Game animals. Newsflash jackass, what I do is LEGAL. Other news flash, my entire business is in the business world, and until you know what that business is you might want to keep your mouth shut before you look like the hateful fool you are. Also your rant on the thread wasn't only about recruiting kids into hunting. If it was I would have left you alone because there is little I can do to argue that. But you went on some hateful agenda of socialism. Like I said before, go ahead and persuade people to follow you and maybe you and the other socialists can change government so yall don'tget screwed out of your mythical cut. See what happens to hunting then. I gaurantee your kids won't ever hunt again unless you become a land owner.

Douglast, where did I not tell the truth? Find it. You and JTEX are eating a nice plate of crow. I feel sorry for people who hire you to seek truth.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Yes I make my some of my money off of Game animals. Newsflash jackass, what I do is LEGAL. Other news flash, my entire business is in the business world, and until you know what that business is you

Could you provide a link to your website?

Everyone,
Do not judge the citizens of Texas by the attitude displayed by some on this thread. Most are easy going, willing to help, willing to give a guy the benefit of the doubt, kind people. I lived half my life in Texas and like the place. Fortunately, I did not meet a lot like a couple on this thread.

When a debate such as the one on this thread escalates into name calling and SHOUTING, the defensive party knows the problem, hence the need to escalate the degradation of the debate to what this thread has become. I find that in life, when you are wrong or may be wrong or have guilt over a activity, all types of justification is thrown up to defend your actions. If the defensive parties were truly trying to present logic, that would occur off line via PM's or in a more civil manner.

In civilized debate, each states a position and point based on facts, not emotion and lets the audience decide.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

I have hunted ( for several years ) and spent time in your beautiful state, not too far from you, and Idaho does have some fatastic public hunting opportunities. But Texas does not.

I'll have to put in 2 cts here two; Texas has outstanding public hunting. Sam Houston National Forest just north of Houston is a great place for white tail but guess what, you really have really work for them. Same here by me on the coast; there is Peach Point, Matagorda, All sorts of duck and goose opportunities.

But they all take a lot more work for success than a lease. And today's hunters are short of time, higher in cash and want some sense of certainty of a kill. That and video games are changing the face of hunting here in Texas, not expense.

And lastly, landowners pay a licenses fee each year to the state (you) for the right to commercially hunt native game on their land. It used to be a by-acre fee, not sure if that has changed. So you are being paid for the use of your share of these deer. If you don't like the rate of return, write your congressman.

Howdy Dogcat. I think you have some basis in what you are trying to say. I take it very seriously, and most other people I know take it very seriously when someone is attacking and making statements that can destroy an entire industry that my children depend on to keep shoes on thier feet and food in thier mouths. If someone wanted to do something so entirely ignorant that would make it to where you no longer had a job I don't think you would keep still and not take it personaly. I don't know any one who sits quiet, regaurdles of where they are from, while stupidity ruins all they have invested in. To many people on this thread this was a debate over a hobby or passtime. For me it is a debate over my paycheck. I will not appologize for defending my career.

Also I do not have a website. Sorry.

smarterthan???
What is with all the name calling man. You keep talking about me wanting to line my pockets? But it is you that are "feeding and putting shoes on your childrens feet" by the use of a public resource.

Yes what you are doing is legal, but could it be a loophole that needs closing?


But everyone that makes money off a publicly owned resource should have to pay just compensation for what they use.

As I stated earlier hunting is a right. Most people that hunt consider it much more than a hobby or pass time.

I believe in landowner rights and I don't have any problem with trespass fees.

But why is it that so often trespass fees are set by the size of the buck? On a lot of the Outfitted ranches in Texas there is a daily rate, for room and board and trespass I assume, plus a kill fee based upon the size of the buck killed.
Is that not selling a game animal. You can't sell whitetail venison in the grocery store.

Another loophole that needs closing?

You keep harping about socialism, are you just unable to come up with valid counterpoint. Of why anyone SHOULD be allowed to make a living off of a State owned natural resource without paying just compensation.

I think we have established that native wildlife belongs to the State. And we are not talking about FEDERAL income taxes here.

quote:

As I stated earlier hunting is a right. Most people that hunt consider it much more than a hobby or pass time

Now tell a lawyer or a game warden that. See what type of answer you get. It doesn't matter what people consider. The law is what rules. I am done arguing with people who are obviously out of touch with reality. Like I said before keep pushing this BS agenda and then you raelly get to see how many kids get to go hunting. By the way the grasses that cows eat belong to the state of Texas too. Why don't you worry about how much money the beef producers are screwing you out of. Biologists, game wardens, bird watchers, taxidermists, mountian bikers, naturalists all make livings off of natural resources because of private property rights! Not loopholes!

Your system for fixing this problem you have made up is the landowners paying more money to the state? Yes or no? I expect you to answer this question! If it is yes then go back to middleschool government and learn about socialism! If the answer is no then I missunderstood your previous rants.

smarterthan????
[quote]Now tell a lawyer or a game warden that. See what type of answer you get. It doesn't matter what people consider. The law is what rules. I am done arguing with people who are obviously out of touch with reality. Like I said before keep pushing this BS agenda and then you raelly get to see how many kids get to go hunting. "

What would a Lawyer or a game Warden have to say about hunting being a right or not?

Laws change all the time, some for the better and some for the worse.

Are you saying that because I don't agree with your views that I am out of touch with reality??

"By the way the grasses that cows eat belong to the state of Texas too. Why don't you worry about how much money the beef producers are screwing you out of."

The grass on "private" land belongs to the landowner. Owners of private land own the surface rights and may own the mineral rights. But NOT the wildlife.

"Biologists, game wardens, bird watchers, taxidermists, mountian bikers, naturalists all make livings off of natural resources because of private property rights!"

What? How are Biologists, Birdwatchers, Taxidermists, Mountain bikers and naturalists uses consumptive ( what do they take ) ? And what does that have to do with private property rights? I wasn't aware that there was a pro Mountain biker circuit or Birdwatching pro tour either for that matter. And a Game Warden makes his living PROTECTING a natural resource that belongs to the people of the State. Don't you read, or watch the news, when a game warden catches a poacher the poacher has to pay restitution for the poached animals. Does he ( the poacher ) pay this restitution to the landowner, NO, he pays it to the State.

"Your system for fixing this problem you have made up is the landowners paying more money to the state? Yes or no?"

YES most emphatically YES, What part of what I have been saying in every post have you NOT understood? ANYONE using a State owned resource for "profit" should pay just compensation to the State!!!! I don't see where I " have made up any problem".


"I expect you to answer this question!"
Going back through all the posts I have tried to answer every question you have asked of me. Some things you wrote were quite frankly hard to comprehend due to your writing "style".

"If it is yes then go back to middleschool government and learn about socialism!"

Where I went to school ( Texas Public ) government was taught in High School. So if you have to pay taxes you are a Socialist? If you pay for your raw materials you are a socialist? If you pay road use taxes you are a socialist? I may have just had a bad teacher, but I don't remember this being the gist of socialism.

I directly answered your question.

Now directly answer mine. And I will not cast any dispersions upon you trying to influence your answer.

Who do you think the native game animals in the State belong to? Come on, you can do it.

That is exactly why I am saying you are out of touch with reality. You have decided that your agenda supercedes state law and therefore you will pass skewed judgement upon people in this state making an honest living. Not off of a loophole like you say, but by thier state given RIGHTS!

Obviously you do not understand how your belief of taking money from one industry using the government to provide things for the rest of society is a push to socialism. Wake up! You are an advocate for hunter's wellfare programs. And yes, wellfare programs are socialist. How much do you like knowing your tax dollars go to that? Trust me land owners will feel the same, and thier logic will be either jerk the prices even higher to cover the difference in profit margins or don't offer hunting at all. Then there will be even fewer hunting opportuntities for your poor little hunters that were hoping government intervention was going to fix all thier hunting woes.

Now here is the answer I have given multiple times that your brain can't grasp. The native plants and animals within the borders of Texas belong to The State of Texas. However that does not deem them as a "public resource". Like I said before, the DPS cars belong to the State of Texas, but next time you jump in one and take it for a Joy ride you will be in a world of shit because they are not a "public resource". You should be happy that our laws are written this way. It has directly benefited us year after year. Various organizations within the state have tried to allocate funds from hunting for their own agendas. Including law enforcement, highway spending, public education, and yes, state sponsored wellfare! The fact that your precious wildlife have been protected because they have not been labeled as a "public resource" apparently is unknown to you. Every year the state legislators have tried to rob TP&W of funds to feed their various BS policies and they fail because the wildlife is not a "public resource". So the minute you win your war and every body has to shell out some more money for what you think is yours, you will have victimized TP&W and the best friends you have in the battle to get more people hunting.
By the way government was taught to me in middleschool, highschool, and college. And all those people I just spoke of are consumptive. All of those people cost both land owners and the state money when they enjoy thier passtimes. Just because they didn't hall your precious deer out of the woods don't meen they aren't consumptive. And thats not a problem because it works perfectly. Just because the state or anyone else doesn't get some huge cut doesn't mean it is wrong. Think about it. If we live by your rules and you take your kid on a nature hike and he picks up a rock he thinks is cool and takes it home he should promptly have to mail the state a check. Get real. Like I said Venezuela is waiting for you.

"That is exactly why I am saying you are out of touch with reality."

Okay, let me get this straight since I don't agree with you "I am out of touch with reality"? Your views and your views only are the sole reality. You think I have issues?????

"You have decided that your agenda supercedes state law and therefore you will pass skewed judgement upon people in this state making an honest living. Not off of a loophole like you say, but by thier state given RIGHTS!"

Are you sure it's a right or is it a privelidge? The State allowing anyone to make a profit off of native game animals without any restitution seems more to me like a privelidge than a right.

"Obviously you do not understand how your belief of taking money from one industry using the government to provide things for the rest of society is a push to socialism."

Isn't that what the government already does with our taxes. Man, does that mean we are already Socialists?

"Wake up! You are an advocate for hunter's wellfare programs. And yes, wellfare programs are socialist. How much do you like knowing your tax dollars go to that?"

I guess T.P.W.D. is already an advocate for "Hunters Welfare Programs" with the Type II programs and their drawing hunts, I like that a lot. I just wish they had more funds to use to expand these programs and aquire higher quality lands.

"Trust me land owners will feel the same, and thier logic will be either jerk the prices even higher to cover the difference in profit margins or don't offer hunting at all."

Sure they might ( most likely will ) pass on these increases, and those that can affrd it will pay it.

"Then there will be even fewer hunting opportuntities for your poor little hunters that were hoping government intervention was going to fix all thier hunting woes."

Your continued bitterness and condescension for young hunters that don't have an opportunity to hunt is appalling. I cannot for a minute believe any outdoorsman would have this type of view much less speak it out loud in a public forum.

"Now here is the answer I have given multiple times that your brain can't grasp. The native plants and animals within the borders of Texas belong to The State of Texas. However that does not deem them as a "public resource".

Plants on private property belong to the landowner, back to the surface rights I carefully explained in a previous post. But I am glad to see you finally admit that native game animals do belong to the people of the State.

"Like I said before, the DPS cars belong to the State of Texas, but next time you jump in one and take it for a Joy ride you will be in a world of shit because they are not a "public resource"."

What kind of convoluted reasoning is this? Can I purchase a license to take a State cruiser for a joy ride? Is there a license offered? No. Nope not even close you are lost.

"You should be happy that our laws are written this way."

What laws written in what way are you referring to.

"It has directly benefited us year after year."

And how do these laws that you fail to identify benefit us?

"Various organizations within the state have tried to allocate funds from hunting for their own agendas. Including law enforcement, highway spending, public education, and yes, state sponsored wellfare!"

Just because politicians are greedy does not mean we all are. Parks and Wildlife funds should only be used by Parks and Wildlife I never said otherwise. I am a firm believer in holding politicians accountable.

"The fact that your precious wildlife have been protected because they have not been labeled as a "public resource" apparently is unknown to you."

I would hope that wildlife is as you say "precious" to everyone. Wildlife should not be seen as walking or flying dollar signs.


"Every year the state legislators have tried to rob TP&W of funds to feed their various BS policies and they fail because the wildlife is not a "public resource"."

Well once the funds are collected they are property of the State. Does that not make these funds a public resource? Chicken or egg, what is it?
As I said earlier in this reply "Just because politicians are greedy does not mean we all are". Parks and Wildlife funds should only be used by Parks and Wildlife. I am a firm believer in holding politicians accountable. There is no place for apathy, if the politicians that want to mis-spend our tax dollars are not made known and voted out of office this will never change. And how may I ask does this "presumed" classification of wildlife preclude the politicians from reallocation of funds?

Our wildlife is a public resource. But tell me please, please, please, in your own words, how you would classify wildlife. I know you stated in an earlier post that you are a "wildlife owner but just recently, you did decide that wildlife now belongs to the State ( government refresher course? ).

"So the minute you win your war and every body has to shell out some more money for what you think is yours, you will have victimized TP&W and the best friends you have in the battle to get more people hunting."


I don't think I am fighting a war, I thought I was just expressing views and opinions. More confusion, read carefully, the people that profit directly from the consumptive use of a native wildlife resource should have to pay a just compensation for that use. Never did I ever say everybody!!!!
If license sales continue to fall due to a lack of new hunter recruitment this is all a moot point. With out a generation of new hunters landowners will in the near future suffer from the lack of trespass fees paid, Parks and Wildlife will suffer from lack of revenue from license sales and outfitters will have no future clients. Without hunters footing the bills for wildlife wildlife will also suffer. So where would you have this go?

"By the way government was taught to me in middleschool, highschool, and college."

I have not wanted to be condescending but if you paid as much attention in government as you did in spelling and grammer, I will not take your government lesson too seriously. College? Really? I all along thought you were some little kid playing at being a grown up on the internet. Oops, I'm sorry.

"And all those people I just spoke of are consumptive. All of those people cost both land owners and the state money when they enjoy thier passtimes. Just because they didn't hall your precious deer out of the woods don't meen they aren't consumptive.

Consumptive? Oh, you mean consumptive users of wildlife. Pray tell how can a Biologist's study of wildlife in his occupation be considered consumptive, how about a Game warden? Do you know what consumptive means? Please tell me how a Mountain Biker takes wildlife into his possession and sells it for profit or a bird watcher for that matter.


"And thats not a problem because it works perfectly."

What are you trying to say here????

"Just because the state or anyone else doesn't get some huge cut doesn't mean it is wrong."

No one said HUGE except you. So that must mean you at least think that our wildlife is worth a lot of money.


"Think about it. If we live by your rules and you take your kid on a nature hike and he picks up a rock he thinks is cool and takes it home he should promptly have to mail the state a check."

That's a tough call but if everyone hiking on public property took every cool rock there would be none left, in every State park I have been in there have been signs warning not to take natural resources "Take Nothing but Memories and Pictures, Leave Only Footprints". But if he were on private property and the landowner didn't mind there would be no problem with that at all.

"Get real. Like I said Venezuela is waiting for you."

I think Venzuela would be more to your taste. Are you Jealous that Hugo Chavez beat you to it. You would seem to make a great dictator as you seem to believe that no ones views except yours matter. As you yourself stated " you are the only one that is in touch with reality".

Eat crow, I think not, you have left no room at the table, enjoy.

Why did you skip over my question about restitution to the State by poachers.

quote:

Your continued bitterness and condescension for young hunters that don't have an opportunity to hunt is appalling. I cannot for a minute believe any outdoorsman would have this type of view much less speak it out loud in a public forum.

Do you actually believe that is my position? My whole point is that your stupidity will take away the chances any future hunters could have. My whole position here is preserving a privelege for anyone who can afford it. By the way native grasses belong to the state also not the landowners. You have lost touch with reality not because a difference of opinion but your complete ignorance and refusal to recognize the facts. Go ahead with your agenda JTEX and see were it gets you. I think you would be better served saving and purchasing private property here and since you believe so strongly in your restitution policy I am sure you will donate plenty of funds back to the state for shooting all our deer.

Also the civil restitution penalty that poachers sometimes have to pay is simply a species specific fine. If it was a true restitution to the state for deer it would be seperated on a sliding scale for value basis to the state dependant on sex and antler development. It is ment to deter wildlife crimes just like a speeding ticket or parking fine. When you pay 35 Dollars for shooting a dove illegaly the state does not go purchase a replacement dove with that 35 dollars. It is a fine. Calling it restitution was "packaging" by the state government. If you don't think the state is not siding with landowners on these issues look at the law passed two years ago making killing a whitetailed deer on anothers property without consent of landowner a felony. Landowners have a right , not a privelege, gauranteed by both our national and state constitutions, to profit as high as the market can bear from thier properties. Same with beef producers eating your precious native grasses.

Your problem sir is you know much less about law, particularly wildlife law, than you think you do.

How's that crow tasting. By the way the state of Texas owns it, so how's about a few bucks for the working man's bird.

smarterthan????

â€Do you actually believe that is my position?â€

That is your stated position. Your written words exactly, misspelling and all “for your poor little hunters that were hoping government intervention was going to fix all thier hunting woesâ€. You wrote it guy not I, if you wrote it you must have meant it.

“My whole point is that your stupidity will take away the chances any future hunters could have. My whole position here is preserving a privelege for anyone who can afford it.â€

Wow man that’s tough, name calling again, a person that does not agree with you is stupid? Or is it just a limited intellect and vocabulary? “Let’s save hunting for the privileged.†That’s what you wrote so, that has to be your opinion? That is the position in England and it’s been that way for hundreds years, has it worked out? Do you just want to silence the voice of the average citizen of this State so that you and those like you will be able to profit more off of our wildlife? Look what happened in England when the elitists got claim to all wildlife on their property, the loss of hunting opportunity in Europe has been extremely detrimental to wildlife, heck average people there can’t even own guns legally, much less hunt. Is that where you want us headed?

“By the way native grasses belong to the state also not the landownersâ€

Where do you get this? Check surface rights. Where do you come up with this? Please provide us a reference.

“You have lost touch with reality not because a difference of opinion but your complete ignorance and refusal to recognize the facts.â€

What facts? Besides that’s not what you wrote earlier, I specifically, asked you if you thought I was out of touch with reality because I didn’t agree with you views, your answer was, and I quote “That is exactly why I am saying you are out of touch with reality.†What facts have you presented, nothing, other than your opinions.

smarterthan??? Are you Crawfishing????? ( that means that you are not standing behind your earlier statements).

"Go ahead with your agenda JTEX and see were it gets you. I think you would be better served saving and purchasing private property here and since you believe so strongly in your restitution policy I am sure you will donate plenty of funds back to the state for shooting all our deer."

I am glad to see that you finally have come to your senses and now are referring to deer as “oursâ€. Or do you mean just you landowners. But I would never want to shoot all of them. As far as going into the hunting business, now wouldn’t that be hypocrisy? No, smarterthan???, I am in a business where we pay for our raw materials and do not rely on WELFARE. Yes you are the one on WELFARE, can’t you see it? Without using the resources of the State, resources that are provided by the citizens, YOU would not be able to “ feed and put shoes on your childrens feetâ€. Isn't that Welfare counting upon others to provide you the means free of charge, paid for by the tax dollars and hard work of others. Oh yes, you may have the land, but are the native animals yours, did you provide them, or do you just attract them to your property?
smarterthan??? You are the one with a socialist agenda, can’t you see it? You are the one that is sponging off the working people people.

"Also the civil restitution penalty that poachers sometimes have to pay is simply a species specific fine. If it was a true restitution to the state for deer it would be seperated on a sliding scale for value basis to the state dependant on sex and antler development."

Check your facts here, you may be suprised

"It is ment to deter wildlife crimes just like a speeding ticket or parking fine. When you pay 35 Dollars for shooting a dove illegaly the state does not go purchase a replacement dove with that 35 dollars. It is a fine. Calling it restitution was "packaging" by the state government."

What an unreasoned statement! Of course it is meant to deter a poacher from the illegal taking of a wildlife resource. The difference between a fine and restitution is that a fine is monetary penalty as punishment, restitution means paying for what you took. I find it quite exasperating that I am having to explain these simple things to a “College Graduate†are you sure you aren’t some little kid? Where would such a purchase be made? Packaging? Did you really say Packaging? Man ( or whatever ) you are really reaching this time, where is that published, our is it another one of your inferences? You continue stating these things as facts, lets have some reference.

"If you don't think the state is not siding with landowners on these issues look at the law passed two years ago making killing a whitetailed deer on anothers property without consent of landowner a felony. Landowners have a right , not a privelege, gauranteed by both our national and state constitutions, to profit as high as the market can bear from thier properties. Same with beef producers eating your precious native grasses."

I do think the State is siding with the landowners on these issues, there is no doubt in my mind that this is the case. Another form of State provided Welfare, but that does not make the situation correct. Politicians typically side with special interest. You are the government expert, College and all, where specifically does the Constitution of the United States or the State of Texas guarantee any landowner the right to utilize native wildlife for profit. State a fact, produce reference. What’s with you and “precious†anyway, limited vocabulary? The grass on private property belong to the landowner, surface rights again.


"Your problem sir is you know much less about law, particularly wildlife law, than you think you do."

I never claimed to be an expert on wildlife law, but you have expounded greatly on things that you have provided no reference on.

"How's that crow tasting. By the way the state of Texas owns it, so how's about a few bucks for the working man's bird."

Now are disparaging the working man also, what arrogance, a man makes an honest living paying for what he uses, earning what he can and you make these kind of comments? You who are using your State sponsored WELFARE to make your living? You must be kidding? The workingman built this country, the few like yourself are just trying to get by off what “working men†made possible. Searching for every way possible to take something for nothing. First it’s poor kids and now it’s workingmen you are NO outdoorsman.

You are the WELFARE recipient, you are the one with a Socialist agenda. Think, wake up. Get spellcheck.

Hey guys, seeing as you two have taken over this thread, and NO ONE else is participating, why not take this to the PM system?
Thanks, Peter.

Hey Peter,

I think I am done here. Bickering with a man that has no grasp of law or reality is a waste of my time. Plus he construes my points into whatever insane bullshit argument he wants to make it. Just know this. These people are out there and they will screw your hunting for generations to come for purely stupid reasons no matter how good thier intentions. He actually thinks I don't want people to be introduced to the outdoors. Good luck out there everyone. Stupidity is just as destructive if not more than apathy.

Peter,

You are probably right. Trying to present different views for thought to some people is a waste of time. To some ignorance and the lack of spell check is bliss.

For some it's all about the money, they just don't care about the cost.

Don't forget the most important thing, take a kid hunting every chance you get. That's wrong it doesn't even have to be a kid, everyone we can expose to a positive experience hunting and shooting will help us all preserve our hunting heritage.

This is an internet forum. Not a spelling bee, english paper, or technical report. Quit looking for reasons to look down your nose self-righteously at people. The minute my spelling on an internet forum starts costing or making me money, I will pay better attention at it.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Hey Peter,

I think I am done here. Bickering with a man that has no grasp of law or reality is a waste of my time. Plus he construes my points into whatever insane bullshit argument he wants to make it. Just know this. These people are out there and they will screw your hunting for generations to come for purely stupid reasons no matter how good thier intentions. He actually thinks I don't want people to be introduced to the outdoors. Good luck out there everyone. Stupidity is just as destructive if not more than apathy.

Then just put yourself on 'ignore'. That should do the trick.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
This is an internet forum. Not a spelling bee, english paper, or technical report. Quit looking for reasons to look down your nose self-righteously at people. The minute my spelling on an internet forum starts costing or making me money, I will pay better attention at it.

You were bullied at school, weren't you?

With him it's all about the money!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

Then just put yourself on 'ignore'. That should do the trick.

Dave,

I like it!

Public Hunting vs Private Land

Hey - it's all good.

I live in Texas (more about that in a minute), but sometimes wish I lived in the West so I could easily hunt elk, mule deer, bear, moose, sheep, etc. as a resident. Unfortunately, as a non-resident, you get stuck with lower odds and higher costs of licenses, tags, and the high costs of outfitters. I believe in paying for someone's time and effort, but with elk hunts into the 5 digit range in some areas, getting up there with bear and moose, that's crazy. I can afford to hunt any animal in any part of the world at any time. However, its a matter of principal. Hunting ALL of America's game on federal public land should be accessible to every U.S. citizen for the same costs regardless of their state of residence. Please note I said federal public land. If it is state owned land, than that's a different story. State residents should enjoy an advantage.

As for Texas, if you have the right setup, it's great. I have an annual lease with some friends that is around 5K acres, low fence, and I literally hunt year around - at least twice per month, sometimes more. I pay less than $5K annually, have a cabin and nice facilities, and can hunt white tail (subject to season), turkey (season), quail (season), dove (season), hogs, axis, aoudad, sika, sheep, bobcat, mountain lion, etc that free range in the hill country. And they are good sized trophies. I even caught and released 2 bass this weekend at the river crossing down from our lease. What I feel bad about are the folks that pay a lot more and get a lot less on their lease. Don't. Look around. Most land owners in Texas are looking for good quality, family oriented, management minded hunters to lease their property and improve it. So far we have dropped one person a year from our lease who has not been ideal. If your idea is to go somewhere to get drunk, shoot things up, break/facture lease rules, or break game laws, go some place else!