The Accurate Reloading Forums
Botswana Elephant
30 May 2023, 19:49
kevin hendersonBotswana Elephant
What's the latest on elephant in Bots, say in July of this year. Asking for a friend.
kh
30 May 2023, 22:57
Greg BrownleeMeaning how the hunts are going? Botswana still churning out big bulls. Probably not as big as the first year or two they reopened hunting on average, but still pumping out big ivory as a whole in the prime areas and some of the areas are doing extremely well.
07 June 2023, 00:32
GusteauxFriend of mine working up in the northern boarder between Bots and the Caprivi Strip in CH1 out of
https://svsafaris.com/ are banging a good bunch of ele and buffalo.
They've got a client in now that is booked for taking 5 elephant over 14-days. Half-way thru and he's got 3 down. All over 50#.
I know they have a couple of ele and a couple of buff still available on quota and could maybe work someone in in July.
07 June 2023, 02:24
MLindsayA friend of mine guides for Clive Eaton, he took a 98.5 x 98.7 last week
07 June 2023, 07:20
the Pom5 ele in 14 days. Ethical in this day and age?
07 June 2023, 13:05
TOP_PREDATORquote:
Originally posted by the Pom:
5 ele in 14 days. Ethical in this day and age?
Yes need to get those numbers up, I remember PH at SCI Show showing me a photo of Ivory from 32 Bulls in one Safari.
"Never in the field of human conflict
was so much owed by so many to so few." Sir Winston Churchill
07 June 2023, 13:56
Gusteauxquote:
Originally posted by the Pom:
5 ele in 14 days. Ethical in this day and age?
CITES established the national quota of elephant permits for every elephant holding country.
Each country with legal quota allocates that quota to specific areas based in part on population density.
Those areas are auctioned off by the governments that include the limited off take for that area.
Why is it an "ethical" question if one person has the financial ability to acquire X number of permits within the allocated quota? It's not taking any more than allowed by the total quota allocated to a specific concession area.
If anyone has actually spent any time in the N. half of Botswana and especially in the NW quarter you'd know the country's carrying capacity for elephant is vastly overpopulated. They are destroying the habitat that supports other species.
Various elephant population surveys estimate the total population in Botswana somewhere between 275.000 (Paul Allen funded aerial survey from several years ago) and 400,000 (Botswana govt internal survey estimates). Those knowledgeable claim the elephant holding capacity for all of Botana is between 65,000-100,000.
Elephants reproduce at a rate of between 3-5% per year (that's exponential not linier). Given that range of numbers, killing 5000-10000 per year will only maintain the total numbers.
I believe the CITES total quota for legal elephant permits in Botswana is 500 per year or less and the govt spreads those out over several dozen very large (1M+ acre) concession areas. While allocated total permit quota is sold, not all permits within any given concession are filled during the season.
07 June 2023, 18:01
Safari2quote:
Originally posted by the Pom:
5 ele in 14 days. Ethical in this day and age?
We need these wealthy hunters! If we did not have them quotas would go unsold!
07 June 2023, 18:06
Safari2quote:
Originally posted by MLindsay:
A friend of mine guides for Clive Eaton, he took a 98.5 x 98.7 last week
Now that is a really nice, matched bull? Would love to see photos.
07 June 2023, 23:02
scruffyI am speaking only for myself, but I have long since passed the 'whack them and stack them.'
Long ago I had an old guy tell me that he and his lady would go out and shoot a single pheasant and then call it a day.
That I could not understand. I would always try for my limit.
I have been on the big South American dove shoots, snow goose shoots, Canada goose shoots. And realized that I only remembered a few unique shots.
My elephants that I have hunted - vivid memories. If I had shot 5 or more on a safari - I am just piling them up. Tried that on wildebeest and after only 3 or 4 - let someone else cull them.
I know Botswana is over populated with the critters - I have been there, myself. And if someone wants to shoot lots of them - go to it.
08 June 2023, 01:56
the PomVery thoughtful and valid replies to my question on ethics. Presumably the hunter in question does not live in a country with a free press which would use this as an open goal for the antis. For sure someone has to fill the quota and the population needs culling. However shooting bulls does virtually nothing to control a population. While most countries would not allow it if someone wants to kill lots of elephants surely they should cull cows, particularly tuskless. Personally I wouldn't care to share a camp with such an individual but if I was a Botswana PH I would be thrilled!
08 June 2023, 05:00
jdollarOne person kills 50, 50 people kill one each. Who cares? The end result is the same number of dead elephants.Ethics has fuckall to do with it.
Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP
08 June 2023, 05:18
Texas Blue Devilquote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
One person kills 50, 50 people kill one each. Who cares? The end result is the same number of dead elephants.Ethics has fuckall to do with it.
+1
Go Duke!!
08 June 2023, 05:35
Michael Robinsonquote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
One person kills 50, 50 people kill one each. Who cares? The end result is the same number of dead elephants.Ethics has fuckall to do with it.
+2
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
08 June 2023, 07:25
the PomWho cares? The percentage of people who approve of shooting elephant in this world is minute. Even in the USA! If we want our grandchildren to be able to hunt we need to protect our image. One bow hunted lion did more damage to our cause than anything else in recent years. Many people on this forum seem to live in a Republican Party bubble without any contact with people of different political views. If you don't believe that a newspaper article about someone shooting numerous eles in 14 days wouldn't do immense harm you need to get out more. Trophy hunting of elephants won't end because of a shortage of elephants. It will end because of the arrogance of hunters who don't care what other people think. Other people can vote too and the politics of envy and wokeness isn't going to go away just because we don't like it.
Perhaps I'm just getting old?
08 June 2023, 07:37
jdollarDo you think the people of Botswana will complain about dead elephants? The only problem is the hunter may not be able to import the ivory.
Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP
08 June 2023, 11:13
the PomThe people in Botswana would be thrilled by the death of a heap of elephants but they don't vote in any country in the western world where bad press has made it difficult to import tusks.
08 June 2023, 16:50
fulvioThe Pom has a very valid point.
While we agree that it is all being conducted legally, the woke public backed by vote-hungry politicians will eventually find ways to bring about the demise of sport hunting by criminalizing it .... along the lines of the Lacey Act maybe.
08 June 2023, 19:01
reddy375If you shot 1 or 50 I dont think it would make one bit of difference to the antis, they want to BAN all hunting at any cost Period.
The problem with our group is we are REALLY good at preaching to the choir and fighting between ourselves.
08 June 2023, 19:24
Macs Bquote:
Originally posted by reddy375:
If you shot 1 or 50 I dont think it would make one bit of difference to the antis, they want to BAN all hunting at any cost Period.
The problem with our group is we are REALLY good at preaching to the choir and fighting between ourselves.
The difference is the antis could view you as just a jerk rich hunter who killed a single elephant. Kill fifty and you are a maniac millionaire slaughtering fifty elephants to satisfy his bloodlust. Yes you would give the antis far more fuel for their fires if you killed fifty as opposed to one.
Macs B
U.S. Army Retired
Alles gut!
08 June 2023, 19:24
Scott PowellI have to agree with Pom...
Unfortunately, optics matter... public perception is an issue we as hunters must take into consideration..
Our "rights" do not matter to the antis or politicians..
Out of sight, Out of mind......
"At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein
08 June 2023, 19:25
Scott Powellquote:
Originally posted by Macs B:
quote:
Originally posted by reddy375:
If you shot 1 or 50 I dont think it would make one bit of difference to the antis, they want to BAN all hunting at any cost Period.
The problem with our group is we are REALLY good at preaching to the choir and fighting between ourselves.
The difference is the antis could view you as just a jerk rich hunter who killed a single elephant. Kill fifty and you are a maniac millionaire slaughtering fifty elephants to satisfy his bloodlust. Yes you would give the antis far more fuel for their fires if you killed fifty as opposed to one.
Exactly - 50 Times as much fuel...
"At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein
08 June 2023, 22:50
Michael RobinsonI see that this discussion has somehow shifted from ethics to public relations.
In that case I will give my standard answer:
No comment.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
09 June 2023, 05:08
TOP_PREDATORquote:
Originally posted by reddy375:
If you shot 1 or 50 I dont think it would make one bit of difference to the antis, they want to BAN all hunting at any cost Period.
The problem with our group is we are REALLY good at preaching to the choir and fighting between ourselves.
Spot on
"Never in the field of human conflict
was so much owed by so many to so few." Sir Winston Churchill
09 June 2023, 05:53
jdollarquote:
Originally posted by reddy375:
If you shot 1 or 50 I dont think it would make one bit of difference to the antis, they want to BAN all hunting at any cost Period.
The problem with our group is we are REALLY good at preaching to the choir and fighting between ourselves.
THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT.The anti want all hunting stopped, regardless of what or how much is killed.
Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP
quote:
The problem with our group is we are REALLY good at preaching to the choir and fighting between ourselves.
100%
We are our own enemy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
10 June 2023, 19:08
Steve Ahrenbergquote:
Originally posted by the Pom:
Who cares? The percentage of people who approve of shooting elephant in this world is minute. Even in the USA! If we want our grandchildren to be able to hunt we need to protect our image. One bow hunted lion did more damage to our cause than anything else in recent years. Many people on this forum seem to live in a Republican Party bubble without any contact with people of different political views. If you don't believe that a newspaper article about someone shooting numerous eles in 14 days wouldn't do immense harm you need to get out more. Trophy hunting of elephants won't end because of a shortage of elephants. It will end because of the arrogance of hunters who don't care what other people think. Other people can vote too and the politics of envy and wokeness isn't going to go away just because we don't like it.
Perhaps I'm just getting old?
This^^^^^
I've been roundly criticized here over much the same position. However, It wasn't the bow hunted lion that was the problem, it was posting the image. That is where I get clobbered.
The images that the other side uses to fuel the hate towards hunters, are provided to them by us...for free.
We as hunters need to (should) have the discipline to not need to post hero shots on line. There was a time it was fine, nobody really cared. Heck trophy hunting was looked at as kinda cool if anything. Now, we as a demographic, are looked at as pariah's, compared to those that perform mass shooting and such.
The problem is, there are those "in your face about it" types, which is also their choice, that make my decision for me. Does no good for me to not post a photo if others are willingly doing so.
I saw what happened to the dentist that posted that lion. It ruined his business and his home-life.
Before I sold my business, I always cared about what would happen to THEM, not me, if I put up inflammatory trophy hero shots. Also what about my wife and kid? They would be chastised and hounded, simply because of my selfish act of putting trophy shots up.
Way back when the whole "hunt able male lion" thing happened, Aaron Neilson was active on here. He had killed something like 14 or 15 lions. Personally, I don't care how many he's killed. But the "optics" of the guy, leading the charge for changing the definition of a hunt able male lion were not great. Same thing here. If the guy wants to shoot 5, or even 100 elephants, I really don't care. Just keep it to yourself.
Formerly "Nganga"
10 June 2023, 19:09
Steve Ahrenbergquote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
quote:
Originally posted by reddy375:
If you shot 1 or 50 I dont think it would make one bit of difference to the antis, they want to BAN all hunting at any cost Period.
The problem with our group is we are REALLY good at preaching to the choir and fighting between ourselves.
THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT.The anti want all hunting stopped, regardless of what or how much is killed.
I agree. But there is no need to provided them with the very images that they use to turn the publics image of "us"
Formerly "Nganga"
10 June 2023, 21:20
A.Dahlgrenquote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by the Pom:
Who cares? The percentage of people who approve of shooting elephant in this world is minute. Even in the USA! If we want our grandchildren to be able to hunt we need to protect our image. One bow hunted lion did more damage to our cause than anything else in recent years. Many people on this forum seem to live in a Republican Party bubble without any contact with people of different political views. If you don't believe that a newspaper article about someone shooting numerous eles in 14 days wouldn't do immense harm you need to get out more. Trophy hunting of elephants won't end because of a shortage of elephants. It will end because of the arrogance of hunters who don't care what other people think. Other people can vote too and the politics of envy and wokeness isn't going to go away just because we don't like it.
Perhaps I'm just getting old?
This^^^^^
I've been roundly criticized here over much the same position. However, It wasn't the bow hunted lion that was the problem, it was posting the image. That is where I get clobbered.
The images that the other side uses to fuel the hate towards hunters, are provided to them by us...for free.
We as hunters need to (should) have the discipline to not need to post hero shots on line. There was a time it was fine, nobody really cared. Heck trophy hunting was looked at as kinda cool if anything. Now, we as a demographic, are looked at as pariah's, compared to those that perform mass shooting and such.
The problem is, there are those "in your face about it" types, which is also their choice, that make my decision for me. Does no good for me to not post a photo if others are willingly doing so.
I saw what happened to the dentist that posted that lion. It ruined his business and his home-life.
Before I sold my business, I always cared about what would happen to THEM, not me, if I put up inflammatory trophy hero shots. Also what about my wife and kid? They would be chastised and hounded, simply because of my selfish act of putting trophy shots up.
Way back when the whole "hunt able male lion" thing happened, Aaron Neilson was active on here. He had killed something like 14 or 15 lions. Personally, I don't care how many he's killed. But the "optics" of the guy, leading the charge for changing the definition of a hunt able male lion were not great. Same thing here. If the guy wants to shoot 5, or even 100 elephants, I really don't care. Just keep it to yourself.
You are mistaken Steve - if you are talking about Cecil? You have never seen that photo.
16 June 2023, 05:28
AtkinsonI been listening to this shit for 40 years and nothings really changed..
All I can say is I don't have a lot of respect to a shooter as opposed to a hunter, a shooter kills by the numbers to pump up his ego, a hunter treasures the hunt, the kill is his goal but its enough.
I only shoot 15 rock chucks and leave the rest for seed next year..shoot off the old ones..If I shot them all Id not have any rock chucks.
Thats just my opinion, I don't require any one to agree..Do as you please as long as it legal, if its not legal its your baby when the hammer falls, take it like a man! dont whine or wimper!
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
18 June 2023, 21:49
larryshoresA friend of mine took a 70 plus pounder today.
I hear a 99 pounder was just taken in NG 8.
19 June 2023, 14:04
MLindsayYes Larry, a good friend of mine Riann, guides for Eaton and took it in NG8, 98.5x98.7
19 June 2023, 18:31
dogcatquote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
quote:
Originally posted by jdollar:
One person kills 50, 50 people kill one each. Who cares? The end result is the same number of dead elephants.Ethics has fuckall to do with it.
+2
+3
26 June 2023, 18:24
TimbavatiI am not a fan of one hunter (shooter) shooting dozens of animals. Some yearsz ago, the park rangers at Pilansberg very quietly culled 200 lions. Why? Because they had too many lions.
Either elephant population estimate in Bots supports hunters taking more than one as the habitat carring capacity is only half of the lowest population estimate.
Ivory aside, wise use of culled meat, hides and bone is a must in order to make the antis SHUT UP.
GOOD HUNTING ALL.
27 June 2023, 01:59
jdollarDo you really think ANYTHING INCLUDING SCIENTIFIC FACTS are going to make any difference to antis??
Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP
27 June 2023, 06:55
SkylineAnti-hunters, anti-guns and climate change nut-jobs cannot be reasoned with. They are not rational, and science or facts are meaningless to them. Driven by emotion, they feel free to just make shit up to suit their agendas.
That said, I see little point in assisting them by providing photos of us standing next to some sort of dead megafauna, be that lion, ele or grizzly. They feel free to copy and paste the pictures and initiate hate campaigns with them. We know we cannot change the minds of these assholes, but we should be concerned about how they are pushing their agendas and giving false information to the masses of well intentioned but ill informed.
______________________________________________
The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift.