I am trying to make a decision whether to get a double rifle. I already have a pre-war model 70 I can use.
Just interested in knowing if Africa hunters often use double rifles or is the DR group somewhat elite and small in number (1 in 10 or less).

I would have to believe that on plains game safaris they are rare to see. On elephant and buffalo hunts they are definitely more common but as a whole still a lot less common than a bolt. I have only hunted elephant once and did it with a double. Hunted Buffalo three times, twice with a double and once with a bolt. Will never hunt them with a bolt rifle ever again.

Bob,

I'm not a double fan because I think the extra money the double costs could be better spent on trophy fees. Having said that though if a double increases your enjoyment of the hunt and you can afford the double and the trophy fees go for it. I do suggest that you do a buffalo and a elephant hunt with a good bolt rifle before you jump into the double rifle discipline. You might find for you that the bolt rifle is perfectly adequate or that you really wished you had had a double. There really is no way to know that until have done it.

You also have to realize the limitations of the double. They are fairly short range weapons so you may have to pass on some shots. Shooting and reloading them requires a completely different drill than a bolt action so some serious practice and gun handling is required. Also they can be extremely expensive to feed if you do not reload.

To answer your question I think I'd guess maybe 1 in 10 do bring a double. Some PH'd have told me that with a new client that shows up with a new bouble they are a little nervous at least initially until they find out if the client can handle the doubler or not.

Mark

my guess is that less than 2% use doubles. If you can afford it its a wonderful way to go.

I keep on buying bolt rifles which means I can't even go on a decent DG hunt.

What % of hunters bring a double to Africa to hunt DG would be one of the least important reasons to select or not select one for me.

465H&H

Me either. There just seems to be a connection between the two. Heritage perhaps?

Rich
DRSS

I own two doubles 375H&H and 470NE neither were bought because of what others take to Africa rather because I wanted them. Neither have been to any part of Africa since I own them though the 375 went with it's previous owner.
I've hunted my DG with a Mauser simply because I am better with it than either double.I've also found not 1 in 10 double owners are very accurate with them. Just because you can afford a double doesn't mean you should be hunting with one.

Good question, Bob.

Another might be, "If both bolt action and double rifles cost the same, how many of you PHs would choose a double?"

I'm not saying the results of the poll should influence the choices of visiting hunters as the DG PH is looking for a defensive weapon to prevent people being hurt.

quote:

I've also found not 1 in 10 double owners are very accurate with them.

Part of that (besides the obvious skills required) is that a DR just isn't very accurate compared to even a mediocre bolt gun. Besides the DR limitations, triggers and iron sights, the easily scoped bolt gun with a "glass rod" 4# trigger will generally be much easier to shoot well.

I'd still take a decent big bore DR on DG given the chance though.

I grew up shooting a SxS shotgun and reading stories from the old days of East Africa. Doubles are in my blood, so buying one was only a natural extension of me and my passion! I LOVE English doubles!!!! As another said what other people do would be the last reason for buying one. Either you love them or you don't. Either you get them or you don't. Either way you can still have lots of fun hunting!

Brett

2th doc,

As long as we are into unsubstantiated fluff; I have found that about ten times as many shooters who shoot bolt rifles as DR's are seen to pick their noses in public.

Doubles are generally DG rifles, and at 50 yards offhand, I doubt you could look at targets and tell the difference. You could pretty easy, if you were out of line of sight and had a stopwatch. And that is what the heritage of Double Rifles is all about.

regards,

Rich
DRSS by choice

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
[ is that a DR just isn't very accurate compared to even a mediocre bolt gun. Besides the DR limitations, triggers and iron sights, the easily scoped bolt gun with a "glass rod" 4# trigger will generally be much easier to shoot well.

"the easily scoped bolt gun with a "glass rod" 4# trigger will generally be much easier to shoot well."
all these features you can and should have in your double rifle

quote:

Mark H. Young

You also have to realize the limitations of the double. They are fairly short range weapons so you may have to pass on some shots

i am getting a bit tired of hearing this urban myth being thrown in as gospel.

if by short range you mean anything with in 200 yards, fair enough but to me that would be extreme hunting shots anyway.

the remark comparing a double to a mediocre bolt gun is just uninformed, so please keep to the topic.

if you put in the time to learn to shoot your double correctly and compare appeles to appeles there is not much difference in the two.

best

peter

I have to agree with Peter. If you have detachable mounts you can use your double to the max. Have the double regulated for open sight and then sight the scope for the right or left barrel to use it as a single shot. No reason they won't do it. I have a friend that shot leopard, lion, buff, croc, hippo ect with a scoped .450/400.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I grew up shooting a SxS shotgun and reading stories from the old days of East Africa. Doubles are in my blood, so buying one was only a natural extension of me and my passion! I LOVE English doubles!!!! As another said what other people do would be the last reason for buying one. Either you love them or you don't. Either you get them or you don't. Either way you can still have lots of fun hunting!

Brett

Good point. As a Brit I have been shooting side by side shot guns for almost forty years and double rifles for thirty. Whilst newcomers can derive just as much fun and demonstrate similar skill to a chap who has them in the blood I agree with the, "either you get them or you don't".

I encourage as many people as possible to try them. Nothing quite like shooting a stag on the hill with an open sight double and they should be just as satisfying with US game.

if you put in the time to learn to shoot your double correctly and compare appeles to appeles there is not much difference in the two.

best

peter[/QUOTE]

Sadly not many shooters do put in that time.

And How many of my colegues carry a double because it gives the client confidence in his PH

There are times when a double would have provided an extra measure of 'security' but even more where the magazine capacity of my bolt gun far outweighed the speed of a back up shot.

For a Photographic guide a double is a huge advantage...much less so in almost all hunting scenarious other than tuskless cow elephants and following up a wounded lion/leopard or buff

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
And How many of my colegues carry a double because it gives the client confidence in his PH

There are times when a double would have provided an extra measure of 'security' but even more where the magazine capacity of my bolt gun far outweighed the speed of a back up shot.

For a Photographic guide a double is a huge advantage...much less so in almost all hunting scenarious other than tuskless cow elephants and following up a wounded lion/leopard or buff

Like I've always said, double or bolt? It just depends.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Nisbet:
I am trying to make a decision whether to get a double rifle. I already have a pre-war model 70 I can use.
Just interested in knowing if Africa hunters often use double rifles or is the DR group somewhat elite and small in number (1 in 10 or less).

Well I’m not a PH but I do have an opinion about the answers to your question, and I have been hunting with double rifles for about 50 years, not exclusively, but mostly, and own seven double rifles today.

First off lets look at PHs and see how many carry double rifles while with a client, I’d say just about all who can afford one depending of what they are hunting. The ones who can’t afford one easily, would if they could IMO.

As far as the number of client hunters who choose to hunt with a double rifle for at least some of the game while on safari, will be a far larger number if their main target is elephant, and to a lesser extent Cape buffalo, and rarely if only plains game is on the menu.

So I guess what I’m saying is, a PH who specializes in ele and Buffalo hunting will see far more clients using doubles than a PH who only occasionally hunts clients on elephant. The PH who hunts clients in places like Namibia, or the desert country of Botswana will certainly see less double rifles in the hands of clients, or own one themselves.

One problem with the range for shooting with a double rifle is the purest simply find it a sin to mount a scope sight on a double rifle. This is nothing more than a modern man’s look at the nostalgia of the double rifle that exists only in his mind. The fact is I have a Westley Richards double rifle that was sold out of the London store in 1892, and it was fitted with a quick detach scope base, but unfortunately I don’t have the original scope. As soon as scope were available many double rifle were mounted with them, used for special purposes, so the hanging a scope sight on a vintage double rifle is not a new thing.

A good double rifle is no less accurate than any other good single barrel rifle with like chambering, and sight set. I can assure you, you don’t want to stand at 300 yds and let Tony Black shoot at you with any double rifle he owns, thinking he can’t hit you with every shot he fires.

I don’t think the bolt rifle’s magazine is faster for four AIMED shots, all on target, than a double in like skilled hands. I’ve personally seen bolt rifles beat in that contest on several occasions quieting the bolt man’s brag.

No type rifle will make up for poor shooting, and that can be taken care with practice with your chosen rifle, but because one man can’t shoot a double fast, and on target, doesn’t mean another can’t! The old saying is very true if you just think about it!
“ Beware the man who shoots only one gun, for he is likely to know how to use it! “

The question asked was for a PH to answer. One, (1) to date it looks like has done so.

What's with all the other answers??? Just kidding, I know you DR folks can't resist. Plus it makes the thread look and read better than just having one reply.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

The question posed by Bob Nisbet:

"Just interested in knowing if Africa hunters often use double rifles or is the DR group somewhat elite and small in number (1 in 10 or less)".

Possibly 5%.

A double rifle most suited for African DG hunting begins in the 450 cal. upwards (and 450 IMO is scratching the bottom of the barrel).
Suffice to say a double in these calibers can hardly be used for pastimes such as boar hunting though a heavy double on a big grizzly might be enticing. However so, how many bears is one going to shoot to make the proposition feasible?

A client hunter is more likely to zone in on a bolt action rifle in the medium/heavy caliber range that may suit conditions other than African DG hunting and that is what the higher percentage come to Africa with.

From the financial perspective, a re-known double will buy a light, medium and heavy bolt action rifle, all well scoped and a fair supply of ammunition thrown into the bargain and maybe some change left over. I guess there must be people out there that give this scenario some consideration as well.

I beg to differ on Mark Young's comment about reloading for doubles - these guns are regulated according to factory loads and provided the measures are strictly adhered to, the point of impact will most likely be erratic.
Besides, how many rounds is one going to fire on a safari that will cause the shooter a financial issue?

He is quite correct in stating their short range capabilities hence the close encounters that most hunters thrill for and the fair amount of practice required in getting to know the rifle, something one client failed to do and blew a shot on a superb lion at 30yds.

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:
The question posed by Bob Nisbet:

"Just interested in knowing if Africa hunters often use double rifles or is the DR group somewhat elite and small in number (1 in 10 or less)".


I beg to differ on Mark Young's comment about reloading for doubles - these guns are regulated according to factory loads and provided the measures are strictly adhered to, the point of impact will most likely be erratic.
Besides, how many rounds is one going to fire on a safari that will cause the shooter a financial issue?

Handloading is almost a must for a double rifle! Not only the expence, but to get better regulating ammo for your particular double rifle. Eventhough the new rifles are regulated with factory ammo, in most cases a different run of the same brand of ammo will not regulate as well as the run the rifle was regulated with, because of the erratic nature of different lots of powder. To get the absolute best from your double you need to handload, note I didn't sa RE-LOAD I said HAND-load there is a difference. Top that off with the fact that a classic double rifle that may be 100 yrs old certainly was not regulated with modern ammo, and most will not regulate well with new ammo.

quote:

He is quite correct in stating their short range capabilities hence the close encounters that most hunters thrill for and the fair amount of practice required in getting to know the rifle, something one client failed to do and blew a shot on a superb lion at 30yds.

The above statement is another reason for very carefull hand loading. It isn't the number of shots made omn safari that costs so much, it is the use of the rifle at home where one needs to not only have the best ammo he can, but to get the practice he needs to become profecient with the rifle. Whether or not you realize it, wild boar hunting with your double rifle is the best practice you can come by for learning to use a double rifle on moveing game, and from hunting positions. I can name for you at least 20 double rifle shooters I know who hunt everything from a blacktailed jack rabbit to grizzley bear with double rifles from 9.3X74R to 577NE. Every one of those double shooters kill wild hogs running two at a time one with each barrel.

The fact that your client missed a lion at 30 yds with his double means little other than he was most likely very excited, and suffering from CLOSE LION FEVER, besides not spending $18 USD per round to practice on Wild boar, and deer to learn his rifle. Handloading would have solved the practice problem, but people screw up leopard shots more often than the shoot clean with scoped bolt rifles that they can practice for $1.50 USD per shot, and in a rifle that they have been shooting all their lives. To a man who has never lined up his sights on a 400 pound male lion at 30 yds before,is lucky to find the trigger on his rifle no matter the type. I don't think your client would have done better with any rifle! The LION was his problem not the rifle.

Double rifles are such a joy to hunt with. Particularly when after Elephant.

quote:

He is quite correct in stating their short range capabilities.

I still dont see how this is even remotly correct

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

He is quite correct in stating their short range capabilities.

I still dont see how this is even remotly correct

best

peter

Peterdk, I could be wrong but I think he meant that the double is so well suited to close encounters,but maybe not, he could have meant the double rifle is only well suited to very close range!

I don't know, but you and I do know that the double rifle is not restricted to short range but like any hunting rifle can be used for hunting ranges needed for the game we hunt. The difference is if we have ammo that shoots well in our rifles and know where the rifle hits at verious ranges, we are at no more disadvantage than any like chambered, and like sighted rifle. People who think double rifles are simply off the muzzle rifles, simply do not understand double rifles, PERIOD!

quote:

I beg to differ on Mark Young's comment about reloading for doubles - these guns are regulated according to factory loads and provided the measures are strictly adhered to, the point of impact will most likely be erratic.
Besides, how many rounds is one going to fire on a safari that will cause the shooter a financial issue?

Kibokolamobogo,

I think you'll find these real double rifle "loonies" do in fact reload and their reloads are as good if not better than the factory fodder. Being able to duplicate the old Nitro Express loads has to be a good part of the fun. As Mac said the cost for a non reloader is substantial as the competent shooting of doubles involves great deal of practice.

Peterdk,

To me a double rifle's coarse open sights offer a pretty indistinct aiming point beyond 50-75 yards so that means a shot at 150 is out of the question. And putting a scope on a double!!! Why?

Look if a guy wants to use a double that's great but let's not try to convince anyone that they are necessary to the enjoyment of safari. When a novice safari hunter kills his first buffalo with his off the rack scoped 375 it would be very unlikely that he will say "Boy I wish I'd used a double".

Mark

I wish I would have used a double on my second buffalo. (Did on the first and third). The buffalo was at 70 yards on the second buff and I shot him with a scoped 375. It would have forced us to get closer for the shot, which for me that is what I really enjoy. It is not about the inches for me, and I like to be close. An open sighted double forces you to get close. IMO shooting a buffalo at 70 yards with a scoped rifle is not dangerous game hunting. The buffalo in this instance might has well been an impala. This is just my opinion and how I have chosen I like to hunt them. But it did take me until I hunted my third buffalo to come to this opinion. Who knows I might change my opinion after 3 more buff hunts.
Mac

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I would have to believe that on plains game safaris they are rare to see. On elephant and buffalo hunts they are definitely more common but as a whole still a lot less common than a bolt. I have only hunted elephant once and did it with a double. Hunted Buffalo three times, twice with a double and once with a bolt. Will never hunt them with a bolt rifle ever again.

After seeing the Buff charge on your video I would say you got two shots off with the double far faster than anyone would have with a bolt rifle.

I would agree and here is a funny little commentary on that. During one of the first few days on that hunt while driving around in the vehicle with my PH we got on the topic of firearms, as I am sure everyone does on Safari. The PH asked me why I liked hunting with a double; I told him I liked the challenge of getting close and the nostalgia of it all. He was using a model 70 with in 458 lott. I asked him why he does not use a double with all the elephant and buff hunts he does. He replied I like having 4 rounds available instead of two. I was fine with his answer he was the professional. Both of us respected each other’s response and we went on with the hunt. Well it just so happened that Andrew Dawson was in camp for a portion of the hunt and happened to have a brand new Heym PH 500 nitro in camp that because of other circumstances was available for purchase. After my buff hunt Len my PH was seriously considering buying it. Have not heard if he did or not, but he did tell me after my Buff hunt it was clear in his mind for that situation the double was clearly the better tool.

Mac

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Part of that (besides the obvious skills required) is that a DR just isn't very accurate compared to even a mediocre bolt gun. .

Everyone should have the rifle THEY want. There's nothing that can't be killed in Africa with an H&R single shot in .375. So it isn't about cost, but rather personal taste, appreciation and preferences.

Regarding accuracy, I'm with Peter. It isn't that doubles are necessarily inaccurate, but I will offer that most people don't shoot open sights very well, and it does take practice. The higher up you go in recoil, (with bolt or double) the more difficult they become to shoot accurately.

I received this target from a customer earlier this year.



Compared to my 10x scoped 300, I guess this is technically "inaccurate," because my 300 will shoot under 1" at 100, but I wouldn't take on a cape buffalo with my 300.

They are completely different animals (figuratively) with different objectives.

Yes, he did move the rear sight over to line up his point of impact.

Hey I like DRs!

My issue with a DR is exactly what you showed, the irons don't shoot POA. But no question that particualr DR is exceptionally good in that respect.

At 100yd the difference of where the light is on the front sight could easily make that much change in POA/POI.

If only every DR would shoot groups like that POA @ 50 yards with irons.

MacD37:

"One limitation is that a double rifle can only be regulated for one load and that is the load that must be used in that rifle. If the bullet weight or powder charge is altered it is very likely that the rifle's barrels will no longer shoot to the same point of impact - this is an indisputable fact!

Trial-and-error shooting and barrel/powder-charge adjustments go on until the projectiles of both barrels finally strike the target within the builder's specified parameters and only once the gun maker deems the double rifle is properly "regulated," the metal "rib" is added between the barrels, permanently mating the barrels together. The builder will then specify the exact projectile weight and powder charge used to keep the barrels "in regulation," .....of course you know all this!

I have tried several different batches of hand loaded ammo from different sources and the results were totally negative if not drastic: apart from erratic and inaccurate shot placement other problems manifested were stuck spent shells, excessively tight action - having to crack over my knee and broke the extractor in the process and in other instances could not close the breech....all kind of unnecessary crap that I have not had with factory ammo from reputable sources!

I came to realize that hand loading (not reloading) was just someone's idea of trying to prove something which someone else had already proved long before and made me decide to stick to that prescribed ammo which works perfectly well, shoots where it was intended, doesn't jam or break ejectors and does the job expeditiously.

That is my contribution on hand loading or reloading - I would rather spend $19 per round and keep safe.

You are absolutely right in saying:"People who think double rifles are simply off the muzzle rifles, simply do not understand double rifles, PERIOD!"...Yes Sir you're on the button; bit like trying to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

Oh, by the way, the client was not the type to be struck by Lion fever - he was simply not acquainted with his double. He shot his Leopard, 3 Buffalo with his 375 but chose, against better judgment, to shoot his Lion with the 470 Chapuis his wife had given him as a birthday present one week before the hunt.
Lion was an old, ash grey, heavily maned scrawny bugger, probably a shade over 350lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
2th doc,

As long as we are into unsubstantiated fluff; I have found that about ten times as many shooters who shoot bolt rifles as DR's are seen to pick their noses in public.



Rich
DRSS by choice

Damnit Rich! I was picking my nose when you said that and almost pierced my brain I laughed so hard!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Peterdk,
To me a double rifle's coarse open sights offer a pretty indistinct aiming point beyond 50-75 yards so that means a shot at 150 is out of the question. And putting a scope on a double!!! Why?

for the same reason that you would put one on a mauser 98 or the later crude copys of same, it gives you a better shot on longer distances, the BS about it is not traditionel is actually incorrect they put scopes on doubles at the same time as they started to do it with bolts.

actually you can become really good with the express sight if you practice enough, all one has to do is practice

quote:

Look if a guy wants to use a double that's great but let's not try to convince anyone that they are necessary to the enjoyment of safari. When a novice safari hunter kills his first buffalo with his off the rack scoped 375 it would be very unlikely that he will say "Boy I wish I'd used a double".

Mark

damn mark necessary is such a strong word, it is not necessary to have a woman present while having sex, it just makes the expirence a whole lot more interesting if you do

I dont try to convince anyone that a double is necessary for a good buff hunt, my thing is actually that i try not to convince anyone about anything as emotionel as weapon of choise.

i usually let them get to their own decision themself, and only offer advice on subjects that i think, i really has a indebt knowlegde of such as double rifles

i dont advice or try to convince people about buff hunting, because i have not been on one yet and honestly know F*** all about it, i look forward to try it but dont think i would try to make any advice about it for many years.

now if we could just keep convincing and advice about doubles in that area as well, a lot of urban myth wouldent be spread so easyly by people who openly admit that they dont want to spend the money on the blasted things but stil offer advice about them.

best

peter

Peter,

Please do whatever you want and hunt with whatever you want. For me when a guy comes to me and asks what double he should buy after booking an inexpensive buffalo hunt I'm going to say "Don't buy a double. Put the money in trophy fees". After all do we buy rifles to own rifles or do we buy rifles to hunt game? The answer is probably a little of both but in my case the hunting far outweighs the ownership of fine weapons. You can always own a rifle by plunking down your credit card but you can't have the safari expereince by sitting in your den fondling your double.

Mark

Mark and Peter,

You would think two long haired hippies could agree on this simple matter.

I hunt with a DR because for me its just as important how I do something as what I do.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
You can always own a rifle by plunking down your credit card but you can't have the safari expereince by sitting in your den fondling your double.

Mark

Are you saying I can not use my CC for a safari?

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:
MacD37:

"One limitation is that a double rifle can only be regulated for one load and that is the load that must be used in that rifle. If the bullet weight or powder charge is altered it is very likely that the rifle's barrels will no longer shoot to the same point of impact - this is an indisputable fact!

Kibokolambogo, It is quite evident you have never read any of my posts on double rifles! You are preaching to the choir here. I have been very successfully hand loading for double rifles for almost 50 years. You simply don't understand proper handloading for double rifles, if you did you wouldn't be buying handloads from someone else, you would be loading your own ammo. From the post you just posted here I'd say you don't understand handloading at all, and I doubt you have ever loaded even one round of ammo for any type rifle! I've been wrong before, but that's the impression I get from your comments in this post.
There is a procedure to loading to the regulation already built into a double rifle. And proper procedure for handloading for any firearm that must be followed if the loads are to be worth anything. Handloading is not done to save money, though it does that. It is done to get the absolute best ammo you can for a particualr rifle, especially a rifle used on dangerous game.

Handload or factory loads will not automatically shoot properly in just any double rifle simply because it is chambered for the same cartridge. Each double rifle is an individual, and some are very picky about what ammo is shot in them.

quote:

Trial-and-error shooting and barrel/powder-charge adjustments go on until the projectiles of both barrels finally strike the target within the builder's specified parameters and only once the gun maker deems the double rifle is properly "regulated," the metal "rib" is added between the barrels, permanently mating the barrels together. The builder will then specify the exact projectile weight and powder charge used to keep the barrels "in regulation," .....of course you know all this!

As I said preaching to the choir! I certainly understand the procedure for regulating a double rifle, and have done it on many occasions myself. There is regulating the RIFLE to a known load, that is what is done by the maker, then there is working to find the unknown load that will shoot to the regulation built into the rifle by the maker. This is done on a rifle-to-rifle basis.
It seems this last type is the part you do not understand. Factory loads will not always shoot properly in a newly made double rifle, and even less likely shoot all that well in a vintage double rifle that was regulated with the old cordite. In that case one only has the option of working up a load to find what shoots in that particular rifle.

One never uses handloads that were not worked up in the rifle they are to be used in, if he's smart! Especially a double rifle. You certainly do not load someone else's handloads in your rifle. I can assure you my handloads shoot perfectly in my rifles, far better than any factory loads on the market today.

quote:

I have tried several different batches of hand loaded ammo from different sources and the results were totally negative if not drastic: apart from erratic and inaccurate shot placement other problems manifested were stuck spent shells, excessively tight action - having to crack over my knee and broke the extractor in the process and in other instances could not close the breech....all kind of unnecessary crap that I have not had with factory ammo from reputable sources!

Again, you never buy handloads from someone else, you load them yourself, or you shoot factory which is not a sure thing either.

quote:

I came to realize that hand loading (not reloading) was just someone's idea of trying to prove something which someone else had already proved long before and made me decide to stick to that prescribed ammo which works perfectly well, shoots where it was intended, doesn't jam or break ejectors and does the job expeditiously.

With the problems you have listed above, the guy who loaded that crap should stick to working as a plumber, because he certainly is not a very good handloader!

quote:

That is my contribution on hand loading or reloading - I would rather spend $19 per round and keep safe.

I can assure you that you simply do not understand proper hand loading, because in almost 50 years of handloading I can proudly say I have never gone into the field with even ONE of my handloads that jammed, stuck, or failed to fire, or broke an extractor, or ejector in any of my double rifles, or any other type of rifle. I can assure you further that my loads regulate far better than the factory ammo that is loaded on gang presses in the factories. I weigh all my brass, sort it as matched weights, every powder charge is weighed on powder scale that is more precise that the one you druggist uses to measure your medication. I can load 100 rounds and every one will weigh exactly the same. every round is tried in both barrels of the rifle it is to be used in before it goes into the field. All brass is trimmed to the exact same length, and bullets are seated to the exact same depth. I find that people who down grade handloading have never done any handloading themselves,and are usually from a country that doesn't allow them to handload ammo. That is a menu for poor performance when they use loads made by some one else.

Real HAND LOADS are developed for only one rifle, the one you are going to shoot it in, and it is done by the shooter of that rifle, not someone who never sees your rifle.

quote:

You are absolutely right in saying:"People who think double rifles are simply off the muzzle rifles, simply do not understand double rifles, PERIOD!"...Yes Sir you're on the button; bit like trying to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

I'll let you explain the statement above! I can't make out if it is sarcasm or not. Teaching your grandmother to suck eggs, is about as useless as trying to teach people who have little or no background with handloading for double rifles, and are fixed wit a preconcieved notion of how it is done.

In any case if the load is proper for the rifle it is shot in, the barrel do not cross at any range, but shoot paralell. This is a misconception that is made by a lot of people. It is even stated in print by people who should know better. This idea is founded in two different ways. first the maker in his ads states " This double rifle is regulated for 50 mtrs" without explaining that is the sights that are regulated to be dead on at 50 yds for the center of a composite group of both barrels, not that they cross at that distance. The second thing that confuses them is that the barrels are converging, so the layman thinks that the bullet paths must then cross at some point. This is not fact. They are converging because they have to be to shoot parallel, because of the thing called BARREL TIME! That is the time between the ignition, and the bullet exiting the muzzle of the barrel being fired. One barrel recoils in opposite ways from the other barrel. Both barrels recoil back, up, and away from the other barrel the BARREL TIME is what places each muzzle to the proper place when the bullet exits the muzzle which is just o it's own side of where the sights were aligned when the trigger was pulled. If the barrels were soldered parallel, they would shoot wide because of the recoil arch, and barrel time.

quote:

Oh, by the way, the client was not the type to be struck by Lion fever - he was simply not acquainted with his double. He shot his Leopard, 3 Buffalo with his 375 but chose, against better judgment, to shoot his Lion with the 470 Chapuis his wife had given him as a birthday present one week before the hunt.
Lion was an old, ash grey, heavily maned scrawny bugger, probably a shade over 350lbs.

You hit on another reason for handloading and that is so the owner can shoot hell out of that rifle long before he takes it to Africa, and certainly before he attempts to shoot a lion with it. You say he shot all his other game with a 375 H&H, I have an idea the 375H&H is the biggest rifle he normally shoots, and if so the rifle was what was scaring him! There is a big difference between the 375H&H and a 470 K-gun. That was simply a lapse of judgment on his part, and yours if you knew he had only had the rife for a week before he came to your camp! I would have insisted he shoot some less important game with that double before he took on a lion. It is one of the biggest mistakes guys make when going on safari, taking a rifle they are scared of, especially if dangerous game is involved!

Kibokolambogo, you are all wet on your opinion about handloading. For the best ammo you can get anyplace is ammo you load yourself, not ammo you depend on someone else to load for you. This is especially true of ammo for a double rifle you will be using on dangerous game!

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Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Peter,

Please do whatever you want and hunt with whatever you want. For me when a guy comes to me and asks what double he should buy after booking an inexpensive buffalo hunt I'm going to say "Don't buy a double. Put the money in trophy fees". After all do we buy rifles to own rifles or do we buy rifles to hunt game? The answer is probably a little of both but in my case the hunting far outweighs the ownership of fine weapons. You can always own a rifle by plunking down your credit card but you can't have the safari expereince by sitting in your den fondling your double.

Mark

mark

please excuse me for this cheap shot.

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"Don't buy a double. Put the money in trophy fees"

but you are an agent that is how you make a living, so off course that would be your answer.

your example that you can just buy a double rifle by plunking down your CC, actually it is just as easy to do with a safari, less waiting time and you can even shoot them from the car with a good rest an a rented rifle so you dont have to actually learn to use the equipment that could highten your expirence(shooting sticks, your legs, double rifle etc. )

but if you actually get a nice gun and use it for your hunting trips, then when you are back in your den looking at your trophys and fondling the nice gun it actually helps bring back the memory's.

i am just janking your chain a bit here, because we are not that far from eachother, just remember a double takes practise, that practise pay's off a lot when you are out there and have to make the shot count.

please remember that decent doubles start around 5-6 K$, which is not that much more than a good bolt rifle

i think we just have to agree to disagree, based on different knowlegde bases.

best regards

peter