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So wait....it's OK to hunt leopard at night because you are MUCH more likely to shoot one then, but not OK to hunt lion at night when you are probably about equally likely to see one in the daytime? That's ridiculous and really just based on what is "traditionally acceptable". A bit like how baiting a leopard is fine, but running one with dogs is not to the average PH. Further, it sounds like Palmer hunts a great deal more than most here ever could. Given that, statistically, he is probably a lot more likely to run into a bit of trouble. Should he be careful? Sure. More careful? Probably....but you hunt enough and things are bound to go wrong. I wonder how many high-profile AR hunters unknowingly violated a game law in Africa but never knew about it because the PH smoothed it over with the Game Scout AND because the animal shot was not high-profile. Lot of female Zebra shot in TZ over the years after all. Anyone recall the Grizzly incident in Montana several years ago involving Atcheson? What about some minor incidents involving regular posters here on AR? Hunt enough and things go sideways or jealous people accuse you of things or neighbors smell blood and want to grind that ax at your expense. | |||
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I won't debate the hunt itself. However, it surprises me that no one has looked into doing business with someone on the banned list. I do not know that the property owner is on the list. However, I do know that that farm was taken over. Many of the farms in that area are now owned by people on the banned list. I'm just sayin....... | |||
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I believe all this shows is that we as clients take a lot for granted and really do not know much about what happens on the ground before or after we arrive for our hunt. I believe many would be quite surprised what happens and who you are really hunting with. But few really want to see the man behind the curtain as it sort of spoils all the special effects. Bottom line - You cannot ask enough questions prior to booking your hunt. And if you're not speaking directly to the operator, you're only getting more of the special effects and not so much the man behind the curtain. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Palmer's conviction on the bear was for making material false statements to US Fish and Wildlife Service officers, i.e., lying about where the bear had been killed . . . that is not just inadvertently being in the wrong place. Perhaps that does make him a role model for some. Mike | |||
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Hillary supporters... Jeff | |||
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....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Mike I don't think anyone here is claiming the Dr. is a saint. However you of all people should be aware that a past mistake has nothing to do with this case! You may not like the guy, and I probably wouldn't want to hunt with him either, but that fact also has nothing to do with his being innocent or guilty in the case of the lion kill. After all that is what we are discussing today! You know that if you were prosecuting this man in a court here in the states bringing up an old conviction that had completely different circumstances it would be struck from testimony by the Judge. Of course here on AR in the Kangaroo court, we can judge this case because of a past transgression. That alone seems to make the Doctor guilty as charge here, no matter the fact that he had the permits he was supposed to have to shoot a male lion with a bow. I think anyone here under the same circumstances would rely on the PH to place him where he was legal. That is what he is paid to do and one reason the law requires us to be accompanied by a licensed PH ! In my youth I drove drunk, was not caught, but I did drive drunk. Now I haven't had a drink of alcohol since the 26th of December 1963,and I doubt if I was accused of running a stop sign today even if I had been caught with a DUI back in the 1960s that fact would have nothing to do with the case at hand today. Come on Mike we are better than to convict regardless of evidence presented simply because we may not like the guy! ...................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Tendrams: Where do you read anywhere in my post that hunting Leopard at night is OK? I tend to do mine evening/last light and/or (if it plays silly buggers) at dawn. My success rate on Leopard: 100% (without dogs). | |||
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anybody know how many Yankee dollars Palmer paid attorneys here and in Africa to get this to go away, in the legal sense? OJ was found legally innocent of stabbing two people. Anyone here naive enough to believe he didn't do it? | |||
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Well, you stated that lion and leopard are "different" in relation to the judgment that was being passed on the "Cecil' hunt and that lion was apparently hunted at night...so presumably you were implying that hunting a leopard at night is acceptable or at least not worthy of that sort of judgement from Mjines. Of course in many areas it certainly is legal to hunt leopard at night (and people don't generally raise a fuss over it here) so why is it such a radical notion for me to view that as your assertion? Clearly you were making an implication that hunting one cat at night is wrong and it's OK with the other. | |||
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In Africa, I would wager that number is a big fat ZERO. Even in America, it seems a waste of money to pay someone just so they can tell you to "shut up". | |||
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Tendrams: Where am I implying it is OK to hunt Leopard at night? Different habits between one and the other simply means that one is likely to be found in the open during the day as well whilst the other would be a very unlikely event. This however does not imply that Leopard, which relates to the latter of the two, is a species hunted only or mostly at night regardless of the fact that it is primarily a nocturnal hunter feeding off its kill at intervals through the night and early morning then sleep the rest of the day within the depths of a thicket and emerge in the early evening to finish its meal or hunt again. Your chances of finding one in broad daylight would therefore be very slim and one of the reason why dogs are used in some countries; fact being that dogs are also used to hunt other elusive game as well, e.g. Bushbuck, Reedbuck, Wild Pig. | |||
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See above....in the totality of your post it's pretty obvious. | |||
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About sums it up... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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What exactly is a "henchman" and where does one hire such people? And how, exactly, does one herd deer while driving along a road? "Yee haw"? or "Yee ha"? And does driving along a road in hunting season constitute road hunting? This is all twaddle. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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dam! according to the accounts of the good Dr., having been convicted on 4 separate incidents years prior in life I guess I am in big trouble. Ya see, I have had 4 traffic violations in my life, and by the standards introduced by some of the blokes on here that makes me a disreputable fella that should be regarded as a criminal and the AHJ should be keeping a sharp eye on me. My history of traffic violations/convictions and questionable ethical conduct would suggest that keeping an eye on me would be advisable (according to a certain consensus here in the AR Kangaroo Court). Actions have consequences . . . what should the consequences be for my prior actions? I guess paying for those prior actions at the time is not enough? In addition, am I to be suspect of breaking the rules every time I get behind the wheel of my old ford truck? or, having paid for my "crimes" do I get equal consideration as the next, innocent until proven guilty. Mike, your a top hand no doubt, intelligent, knowledgeable and worthy of a ton of respect from us all, you certainly have mine. How you choose to align yourself on this matter is your choice, as it is for each of us. I choose to let past and paid for alone, and press forward with innocent or guilty, and in the Cecil the Lion case, the DR. was found innocent. Pretty much case closed at this time.....until he is actually convicted of something else! hearsay and bullshit have a large amount of similarity. In the mean'st....could you please send me one of the "Give Mr. Palmer a Pass" bumper stickers. If he actually does do something and is convicted of breaking a game violation I will be sure to remove it from the rear bumper of that old ford. Be glad to pay for the postage. thank you Rory | |||
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+1 ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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In my view misdemeanor traffic violations are just a tad different than felony convictions for lying to Federal authorities for poaching . . . if you see the two as being comparable, well as said above, we agree to disagree. So a fellow gets caught fishing without a license, fair enough stuff happens. Then a couple of years later he is caught poaching a bear and lying to USFWS agents investigating the crime. Bad judgment or unlucky? Then a couple of years later the same gent is involved in a controversial lion hunt involving a collared lion, hunted at night along the boundary of a national park. Blame the outfitter I guess, how I was supposed to know? Before the lion incident is even out of the news we hear the good fellow is being investigated for illegal deer hunting activity. I guess that is all just happenstance or serendipity. Poor guy is just having a streak of bad luck . . . probably feels like Charlie Brown and is singing The Coaster's song Charlie Brown, "why's everybody always pickin' on me . . ." Mike | |||
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........................I yield to a barristers' superior experience with the working of the law, and his opinion of who is guilty and innocent in this case! You may very well be absolutely correct! ..........................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I do not know if he is guilty or not (of the latter two incidents, he absolutely was of the first two incidents) . . . but in my view his track record to date has certainly not earned him the right to the benefit of the doubt. Mike | |||
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I have suspicions about the guy because of his past record. However, since I am not on the jury should there be one, who gives a f%$k? If he is charged, he will be prosecuted. If he isn't charged, he won't be prosecuted. If he is guilty, I hope he is convicted. Whether his acts were intentional or not, he caused us a lot of grief. | |||
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Blame the outfitter for what...I believe the features of the hunt mentioned were completely legal. Further, when you hunt with Buzz, not that he is not trustworthy, but do you ask for maps showing where the boundaries are? Do you reconcile those maps with your GPS position at the time you are preparing to take a shot? Do you ask for copies of all the paperwork to make sure the permits are in order? Somehow I sincerely doubt it. Still, here you are running your mouth like a prosecuting attorney. There but for the grace of God go you! | |||
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There but for the grace of God go me? Hardly. I would not be hunting a collared lion at night along a national park boundary in the first place.  Mike | |||
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How about shooting a sub prime lion that is no where near a park, is that OK in your books? What about an adult lion that frequents a park from time to time but doesn't have a collar, is that one OK? What about an adult lion that is part of a research project but no collar next to a park, is that one OK? What about an adult lion that is within 20 miles of a park, is that one OK? Just trying to figure out how some define ethical lion hunting. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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 Mike | |||
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Yup! Lot's of ethical lines aren't there? Some guys won't shoot a female etc. but some will. I can't help but wonder how many of other people's ethical lines Mjines has crossed! | |||
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You're like a little puppy, I whistle and you come. Cute.  Mike | |||
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Absolutely! Right after lawyers Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Mike I respect your opinion and I believe your heart is in the right place. However having said that, I think you well know that most concessions are bordering parks, and many times baits for cats are set within spitting distance of a border! I also think you are aware of the fact that you never know how close to that border you are when you shoot. I'm sure, as well, that you trust your PH to make sure you are aware of how close you are to that border with a warning to shoot well, or your trophy may escape into the park where you can't follow. I have been made aware of a close boundary on occasion while hunting the bush along the Luangwa river with the south Luangwa ntl park on the other side of the river. I was cautioned to make my shot on the buffalo count because the border was within a half mile of the park boundary. The PH was right because when I shot the buffalo the herd ran directly for the border which was up wind of our location. If that PH had not told me I wouldn't have known where that boundary was or even if I was in a legal hunting area. The Dr. may very well be guilty, but I do not know that nor does anyone here know that! that is my objection to finding people guilty in a kangaroo court on the internet. What is said here will damn well follow this guy for the rest of his life all with zero knowledge of the real facts of anyone here. If the DR. was found guilty in a REAL court I say hand the bastard but he wasn't but for some reason he was here! For now my take on this is I vote for innocent till PROVEN guilty! .....................................................................  BYE Over and out!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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 , he was found guilty . . . several years ago . . . twice.Mike | |||
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I'm no lawyer, but being found guilty even 20 times previously doesn't make one guilty of charge 21 until a jury says so... | |||
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But he wasn't convicted of the charge we are discussing here was he? ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Sorta like you always come out when there is the slightest chance to pick on another hunter almost at the behest of the antis. Me, I am always happy to come out to highlight the idiocy and hypocrisy of such a person. Please tell us all again about how you have never found yourself on the wrong side of someone else's "ethical standard". How is that view from your glass house? | |||
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MJines you're really opinionated it seems on the subject of ethical hunting, which is great by the way, so why do you dodge these simple questions on ethical lion hunting?
___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Good puppy, good puppy. Sit. Mike | |||
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I'll just leave this here as a memorial to Mjines' hunting career.  | |||
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. . . like I have said before, those that can do, those that can't teach . . . what a pitifully weak effort. You should be more ashamed than Palmer.  Mike | |||
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Interesting that those who are the most outspoken on a particular subject have skeletons in their closet they don't want to be reminded of. I am beginning to understand why you don't want to really discuss ethics, you just want to judge others. Sad ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Hey, don't expect people to tolerate your ragging on another hunter's ethics when you can't even bother to wake up "dangerous" game before you shoot it. Legal? Sure. Admirable? Frankly, I would rather shoot ANYTHING (collared or not) at night and on a park border than a sleeping cat. Further, if I did shoot a sleeping cat, I don't think I would be the one shouting about ethics and throwing stones at other hunters. | |||
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. . . perhaps we should poke 'em with a stick too to make sure they are good and dangerous.  Mike | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Minnesota investigates illegal hunting allegations on Cecil the lion killer's land
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