Our own Gayne C. Young reported on this in his Hunting Review. Here we go boys;
http://www.huntingreview.org/?p=979

If you are American and want to hunt Lion my advise is to do it now. Once your President signs the petition to classify Lions as endangered then the import will probably be banned?

National Geographic claims that the Lion population has plummeted to only 20,000? Where they get these figures from I do not know? This is slander. There has been no census conducted in Zambia and none that I know about in Zimbabwe. Lion hunting was closed down in Botswana on a whim. Kenya's once famous wildlife populations are virtual history. The vast tracts of lands that were once protected by safari hunting are now abandoned and desolate. George Adamson would turn in his grave.

Currently 30% of Zambia is under some sort of wildlife protection and most of this is hunting concessions. Countless dollars and man hours are spent in anti poaching and controlling other natural resource abuses. To take Lions off our hunting quotas will ultimately spell the end not only of the free range Lion but all species that go with it, and all because of sensationalistic journalism and a couple of rabid long haired hippies.

The U.S. ESA......... So the price goes down and the rest of the world takes up the slack. Maybe even more killed than previously. Duh!
RIch Elliott

I hope this doesnt happen . I like to hunt lions most of all.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Elliott:
The U.S. ESA......... So the price goes down and the rest of the world takes up the slack. Maybe even more killed than previously. Duh!
RIch Elliott

Rich,

Not sure that makes sense to me. Americans can't import Cheetah. Has their price gone down?

quote:

Our own Gayne C. Young reported on this in his Hunting Review. Here we go boys;
http://www.huntingreview.org/?p=979

This is old news. It hasn't happened yet and there are plenty of folks working behind the seens to stop it.

quote:

Lion hunting headed for CITES I?

If this should happen, it will be the equivalent of a death sentence to the remaining wild lion population. One only has to look at the sad state of the Tiger to see what a lion hunting ban will do.

Arjun Reddy
www.huntersnetworks.com

This is exactly why I hunted lion last year. I am afraid for the future of lions and lion hunting.

Here in Botswana we have been fighting this war since 2003. Not to repeat what has been said on the variuos threads but if I could add that the anti hunters have been far more active than we have and for many years now I have tried to solicite the involvement of hunters on anti lion hunting forums on the web. John Jackson and Zig from Osprey filming compiled a very strong video on Lion prior to COP ( CITIES ) convention - Lion were well on the way to being included in the program for debate at COP for up-listing, fortunately no party seconded the proposal to have the topic put on the agenda ( not even Botswana ) so it never made COP in Doha. This has not stopped them IT WILL MAKE IT ON TO THE NEXT COP agenda. Where did the 6 year criteria originate - a wildlife biologist who was in the begining working with hunters called Craigh Packer initiated this study concept , he pushed this in Botswana and Tanzania , very soon he would jump ship to the anti hunting side and we can only speculate as to why ( $ ? ) he then said he reversed his findings and that even shooting 6 year olds was not good - he now wants a total ban on lion hunting and is well funded by the anti hunters. The Tanzanians heard about Mr. Mrs Joubert coming to Tanzania to stop lion hunting and through Michele Mantiakis they quickly took the wind out of the attempt as they are well connected to logical politicians and decision makers. But rest aassured they are not finished with Tanzania. For the last 5 years I have tried to track down the Lion hunting forums and pleaded on SCI DSC and this forum to go to these blog sites and join the fight against the threat of lion hunting closure - its not to late - go to FaceBook pages - LION AID and LIONS FOR AFRICA as a start and then the wiki pages mentioned on the other thread.
Kenya lost its wildlife protection outside of national parks when hunting closed - they had at the time a thriving and abundant wildlife - without the protection from the hunting companies the wildlife was plundered and to day the wildlife has declined by more than 80%.
Peter Flack has released a fantastic video on hunting as a tool of conservation - much of what we discuss here is on there but better explained by Flack and Shane Mulhoney - its worth the watch.

quote:

Where did the 6 year criteria originate - a wildlife biologist who was in the begining working with hunters called Craigh Packer initiated this study concept , he pushed this in Botswana and Tanzania , very soon he would jump ship to the anti hunting side and we can only speculate as to why ( $ ? ) he then said he reversed his findings and that even shooting 6 year olds was not good - he now wants a total ban on lion hunting and is well funded by the anti hunters.

I believe this tactic is referred to as "boiling the frog" and it usually works. This is the primary reason I and others do not like to give unquestioning creedence to what restrictions others say we should accept. It is the beginning of the end. Are you listening LCTF? Only fools (and eventually losers) let the enemy frame the arguement, it is always best to keep pushing the arguement back to the REAL issues.

Tiger hunting was banned in 1972 and hows that working?

quote:

Where did the 6 year criteria originate - a wildlife biologist who was in the begining working with hunters called Craigh Packer initiated this study concept , he pushed this in Botswana and Tanzania , very soon he would jump ship to the anti hunting side and we can only speculate as to why ( $ ? ) he then said he reversed his findings and that even shooting 6 year olds was not good - he now wants a total ban on lion hunting and is well funded by the anti hunters.

Some of what you say is correct and some is not. I and Aaron and Bwanamich have all gotten to know Craig fairly well over the last few years.

He is NOT in favor of a ban on hunting lion. He knows that with the loss of hunting blocks...so goes the lion. Zig has also been involved in some of these talks and can verify. John Jackson has Craig on speed-dial on his phone...he too can verify that Craig is not anti-hunting.

What he does want to see is some effort by the hunting community to improve the situation for the lion.

The 6 year old rule is now Tanzania Law. We have to live with it in that country. We (LCTF) were not in favor of that law...we came along too late to change it. We were in favor of inacting a system similar to the Niassa Carnivore Project in the Niassa Reserve.

For those who want to read about it go to our discussions on www.wikispaces.liondiscussion.com and read about it.

The USF&W service is likely to do what Craig Packer recommends...that is just a fact we must live with.

Therefore...it is important for us (LCTF & Hunters) to work with Packer.

I am NOT saying to give him carte blanche...but maybe to take a Ronald Reagan/Gorbochev(sp?) approach...trust but verify.

quote:

Some of what you say is correct and some is not.

what is correct and what is not?

quote:

Where did the 6 year criteria originate - a wildlife biologist who was in the begining working with hunters called Craigh Packer initiated this study concept , he pushed this in Botswana and Tanzania , very soon he would jump ship to the anti hunting side and we can only speculate as to why ( $ ? ) he then said he reversed his findings and that even shooting 6 year olds was not good - he now wants a total ban on lion hunting and is well funded by the anti hunters.

Green is 100% correct.

Purple is kind of a mixture of false & truth.

Red is untrue.

Craig is in support of continuing lion hunting and is against ESA listing as long as hunters stop the off-take of <5 year olds on a regular basis.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

Not sure that makes sense to me. Americans can't import Cheetah. Has their price gone down?

Almost certainly it has. You can shoot a cheetah in Namibia today as a simple add on to a plains game hunt for $2500. I would be very surprised if it were not $3500 with a slight bump in daily rates if Americans could import them.

This does not mean that more cheetah are legally shot (assuming decent game management laws) but it does mean that farmers have a lessened incentive to keep cheetah around when they don't get as much money for them and when they obviously prey on the animals that are revenue generators. I'll bet the temptation for farmers to shoot cheetah, shovel, and shut up is pretty high when they are losing a few hundred a week in springbok trophy fees to the neighborhood cheetah. Promise that farmer $5000 in trophy fees and bumped daily rates though, and he'll let those cheetah stick around and even multiply. Simple economics.

Joubert is still in Tz (approx 2 years now) and involved in a hunting block in the heart of the Selous (http://www.greatplainsconservation.com/selous/index.html)! He is "invisible" on paper but if one follows the money trail and reads the numerous interviews he gives in magazines, etc, as well as his website he himself admits it!

I may be having a sometimers moment but on the anti lion hunting blogs on Facebook pages Lion Aid and Lions for Africa they cite Craigh Packer as the biologist when arguing their standpoint. I think that both Pieter Kat and Ian Michler both very vocal in wildlife magazines often refer to Packer in their arguments against hunting, I also recall internal correspondence with anti hunting statements from Packer - will need to look back , but most certainly he has reveresed his stand on lion hunting according to the anti hunting bodies. On wiki his comments will be discussed with his peers, so possibly the tone is lower.

On a leopard hunt in Namibia, the landowner asked us to shoot every cheetah we saw. They had zero value to him because the USA did not allow importation. I don't know that lions would be viewed differently.

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
I may be having a sometimers moment but on the anti lion hunting blogs on Facebook pages Lion Aid and Lions for Africa they cite Craigh Packer as the biologist when arguing their standpoint. I think that both Pieter Kat and Ian Michler both very vocal in wildlife magazines often refer to Packer in their arguments against hunting, I also recall internal correspondence with anti hunting statements from Packer - will need to look back , but most certainly he has reveresed his stand on lion hunting according to the anti hunting bodies. On wiki his comments will be discussed with his peers, so possibly the tone is lower.

He is on record with the LCTF as saying that he is not for the uplisting of lion on the ESA and that he is for the continuation of sport hunting of lion with reform of the industry.

I also have been encouraged to shoot cheeta at no cost,"as they eat up the game and have no value to us."

quote:

He is on record with the LCTF

what "record"?

Lane,

Do you mean you have it in writing that Packer is not against sport hunting for lions or did he just tell you that in conversation or perhaps did he say that in public somewhere. I ask because that is encouraging if true and documented.

Mark

quote:

The U.S. ESA......... So the price goes down and the rest of the world takes up the slack. Maybe even more killed than previously. Duh!
Rich Elliott

Exactly Rich. We sometimes tend to think we're the only hunters that visit Africa, and we're not by a long shot. Anti-hunting clowns can sit back and pat each other on the ass if they get the Lion ESA listed. Meanwhile back at the Bat Cave, hunters from around the world will relish in the less competitive sport of Lion hunting. Personally, I see both sides of our AR coin: Side 1. Don't shoot young Lion's, and this I lay directly in the PH's lap! Side 2. If a Lion is hunted legally, as Brad said, don't let the enemy (anti's) frame the arguement. I can see merit on both issues. However, nothing stings more to a hunter than leaving Africa with their hard earned Lion trophy, then have their peers denounce it as having milk on its lips. Again, it (IMHO) is the PH's responsibility to judge a Lion as being mature; not an easy task sometimes. As for the "six year rule" BS! What do you do...walk up and ask for his ID? It is however, not that difficult to tell if a male Lion appears to be mature. Not set in stone, but telling a youngster from a mature male doesn't seem like rocket science to me. Bottom line: we best become united and stop the bickering...our enemies relish at the thought. Cheers to all, David

mark and David, I am not sure if i saw that in print at the meeting or heard him say it but he did say if we showed we were trying to only harvest mature lions he would not want the uplisting. Of course that does not mean he will be on our side but it is possible that he knows the lack of USA hunters money will hurt the lion overall and yes other people will hunt them but we generate far more money than any other country.

So if stopping lion hunting is the answer to having more lions, then are there thousands of wild lions in Kenya where all hunting was stopped decades ago? My guess is there are fewer lions in Kenya now than ever and it has nothing to do with lion hunting for sport/trophies. If lions have no value as trophies then they will be irradicated as vermin just as they were in areas where cattle ranches were established in RSA.

quote:

Originally posted by mufasa:
So if stopping lion hunting is the answer to having more lions, then are there thousands of wild lions in Kenya where all hunting was stopped decades ago? My guess is there are fewer lions in Kenya now than ever and it has nothing to do with lion hunting for sport/trophies. If lions have no value as trophies then they will be irradicated as vermin just as they were in areas where cattle ranches were established in RSA.

Exactly! Our point all along.

Was hunting near Binga in Zim when we ran across a pride of eight lions and watched them kill a baboon. I asked Rory Muil what was going on and he guessed they were out of the park to kill some cattle and would hopefully return after one feed. Rory said if they don't the locals will poison the carcass and kill the whole pride. Lions are in direct competition with people in CAMPFIRE areas and will lose the fight without hunters help.