Watched an episode of Hornadys Africa last night and it will be the last one for me.

Episode started out by saying it was a Lion hunt and a lot of big baits would be needed. Hippo, Buff and Tuskless Ele were mentioned as targets for the baits. Next scence shows PH and Hunter sitting in the open on a sandy bank watching a pod of Hippo in the distance. Then they say, I guess they are not going to get in range for a easy shot and recovery. Duh. Maybe not sitting in the open would have helped? Off they go to look for a tuskless Ele.

Tuskless is found and Hunter botches two shots and the PH finishes it off. Not a problem, things like this happen, right? But next scence shows the PH and hunter with ele, and PH offering congrats and good shooting to the hunter. Maybe the PH meant congrats on HIS OWN shooting ability? It gets worse.

After a few scenes of butchering the Ele and hanging various baits, switches to the hunting party walking along a dry riverbed. Lo and behold a Lion is spotted sound asleep in the riverbed. The party moves in, don't know how they were able to age the Lion, but all of a sudden the hunter is on the sticks. I suddenly realize, OMG, this guy is going to shoot the Lion while it is asleep!! He does so, and very poorly again, as with the Ele. I for some reason have the remote control in my hand and after three shots and the Lion still flopping around I hit the off button and nearly puke on the spot. I am sure I missed another round of congrats and good shooting scenes along with the victory posing and all? I wonder what this great White hunter is going to tell his friends back home when they ask about his Africa hunt? Oh I shot a sleeping Lion while in Africa.

This has to be one of the most sickening, disguesting scenes I have ever seen on an Outdoor Show. It makes some of the high fence, canned Lion hunts I have seen look Saintly in comparison. I really thought the guys who produce this Show were way, way above this sort of thing? Guess not? Note, I am in no way trying to force my thoughts or ethics on anyone here. Just saying. If you condone and like this sort of thing, more power to you and eat it up. Sadly, Hornadys Africa and TAA will no longer be on my "must see" TV list in the future.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

See "canned lion hunts" are not so different from "wild lion" hunts. If you find one sleeping wack him and be happy WTF.

That is why I prefer Pygmy and Spiral Horned Antelope.

Seriously? You judge a whole series by one show and swear 'em all off? I think we all have become a bit hypercritical... but again just my $.02!

BTW, was the hunter fit or fat? Just sayin...

Viable options?

1) Sit down for a couple of cold pops and some string cheese and animal crackers while waiting for the lion to wake up before shooting him?

2) If in a hurry, throw rocks to wake up the lion or send the tracker in to shake him awake?

3) Hang a bait around the corner and wait on the lion to get hungry and then shoot him?

I take it ambush hunting is better that following tracks in an effort to take the game? I'm probably missing something here ....

This thread is a perfect lead-in to an ethics fight! As they used to say, "It's simply not done, Old Boy." Time was when all would understand what this meant and recognize what was what. Nowadays, people scream "Judgment!" when one says that sort of thing. Afterall, we are a culture of egomaniacs who blaze their own ethical trails, "the proper way to do it" be damned.

I submit anyone who claims they should be able to determine their own ethics perely on their terms does not understand the notion of ethics.

It's all about the ME.

Larry, I didn't see that episode but Sunday afternoon I saw another show in Africa where the hunter literally stepped out of the rover and they put the sticks up on a big kudu,, no attempt to keep the rover out of the picture, I figured the guys here would be going wild about that one as well....oh well

Sorry but I don't get the issue about the kudu episode.

the issue is they basically shot it from the truck,, they did at least get out of the truck. I really don't care but on AR in the past there have been huge critics of shooting "that" close from the truck...another ethics police matter,, and I did look, the guy didn't look fat and out of shape,, if that matters as well

Well I guess I just suck then. On my wall hangs a 58 3/4" kudu I took in Zim. It went like this: we were driving on a dry riverbed when the trackers spotted him on the edge of the bank feeding. We stopped, he spooked. We got off the Land Cruiser, walked about 50 yards onto the bank and there he was, about 100 yards away feeding again. Whacked him with a 300gr A Frame. So next time I guess I need to throw a rock at him or something or is there a "proper" distance for these "purist" geeks?

OK Boys, here tis'
Sorry you were offended, but would not change it one bit ( I had that option in the editing process) as we showed exactly what happened. We knew that lion very well by both previous sightings and trail camera work and knew he was a solitary male the majority of the time, although he sometimes travels in the company of a similar age class lion. In fact, several attempts by various Chifuti Pro's had failed to get this cat to stay on bait during legal shooting hours as he was very wary and nocturnal by nature. So Larry thinks there is something wrong about getting on, then skillfully following the tracks to an eventual contact with the intended target ? I would say very confidently that I have far more lion hunts under my belt than he, and I can promise you that this style of hunting takes far more skill than popping a lion with his head stuck into a hippo carcass. Priced a 21 day lion hunt lately? If so, would you get within shooting range of a cat, have a dead solid rest, a legal tag, and a perfectly still target and shout the cat awake ? I can tell you what would have happened, that thing would have rolled to his feet, saw the threat, and been off to the races in one fluid motion. Second guessing is part of human nature, and we all fall prey, but Hunting TV is a favorite target. As for shooting, this guy is one of the most solid guys we have ever had as a client. He is a repeat client and both his ethics and shooting are first class. His shot was good enough to anchor the cat, and his follow up shots were to put an end to any suffering and potential danger. I guess Larry is is a one shot or nothing kind of guy, but our team, in it's ignorance, insists dangerous game be shot until it is DEAD. The reasons to everyone should be obvious. This was a very wild lion, in free range country, and to paint it otherwise is wrong. Can't please everyone all the time ( GOD knows we try) but we will just have to accept the fact that Larry has seen his last episode of our stuff. Fair enough. Now I can enjoy him boxing another producers efforts. It's getting windy on my soapbox so I will now step off. Adios Larry.

I would hunt with Larry.

I also watched this episode and my first thought was how in the hell did they age this lion? The lion's head was facing away from the camera (and shooter) and was sound asleep. The whole thing is questionable and high on my BS meter.

I have never hunted lion (it is a $$$$ thing) but how often do you find a healthy wild lion sleeping in a wide open area?

As for the poor shooting, I have never hunted elephant and was watching Buzz Charlton's Hunting The African Elephant, brain shots are tough. A sleeping lion from sticks not so much, but questionable in my mind

Dave, your post got in while I was typing. Thanks for "filling in the blanks" on the aging. Now about the sleeping in the open?

Larry,

Check out Rainer Josch's new Buffalo Video. I like it and it appears our tastes coincide.

How does it go?

All it takes for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing?

Larry ain't doing nothing.

I sure wouldn't wait for him to wake up myself. As keen as cat's senses are I would consider it excellent stalking to get close enough for a shot without waking one.

Where does the lion sleep ? Wherever the hell it wants too! This one wanted to snooze in the middle of the Chewore river. Some scream "show the hunt like it happens !" The next guy busts our tail for it. Hard to please all every time.

I just finished watching the show, twice, just to make sure I didn't miss anything.
Larry I've come to respect you on this site but have to diagree with you on this one.
I've watched enough videos with P.H.'s making back up shots on DG to know it is fairly common even when the client has made good shots, it's just an insurance thing.
As for the sleeping lion, if me & my P.H. plus however many others were along were able to sneek up on a wild lion & kill him, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As far as shooting it 3 times, I do that with whitetail deer, if it's moving it's getting shot till it stops, for me it's about killing as quickly as possible so the animal doesn't suffer anymore than necessary.
About what's the great White hunter is going to tell his friends back home, hell it's on television! He probably had a copy of the video & has worn it out showing it to them. I know I would have.

So what would be the proper thing to do in this case?

Before shooting, stalk up to the sleeping lion and gently nudge him a few times while whispering, "Wakey, wakey . . . " in his big furry ear?

Dave has explained that the lion was a known animal, so no age concerns, right? I fail to see any issue with shooting any big game animal while it's sleeping. That's how it happens sometimes.

As the old saying goes, "You snooze; you lose!"

If I was pheasnt hunting and came across a sleeping rooster I would wake him up and see if I could hit him in the air.

Tracking a known Lion that I intended to kill..... different deal. Congrats to the hunter!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Well I guess I just suck then. On my wall hangs a 58 3/4" kudu I took in Zim. It went like this: we were driving on a dry riverbed when the trackers spotted him on the edge of the bank feeding. We stopped, he spooked. We got off the Land Cruiser, walked about 50 yards onto the bank and there he was, about 100 yards away feeding again. Whacked him with a 300gr A Frame. So next time I guess I need to throw a rock at him or something or is there a "proper" distance for these "purist" geeks?

Jeeze I must double suck then. We were driving down this road when a Kudu herd crossed the road 80yds in front of us. Truck stops, PH and I get out and 52" bull Kudu stops 40yds away. PH says shoot, so I did.
In an environment like Africa, take them however they come. Its your hunt, your ethics and your money. To shoot or not to shoot is up to you.

Isn't it everyone's ambition to die in their sleep? If one of our goals as hunters is to be as humane as possible, somehow waking a sleeping beast only to shoot him as he recovers from his slumber hardly seems to be in that spirit.

As for the hunting programs Dave & Co. produce, I believe they are hands down the most professional of their kind. Low-key narration, well paced and professionally edited, frequently educational, plus more and more real hunters (as opposed to sponsor executives who are as appealing as many in-laws) – Tracks Across Africa is the cream of the crop.

As for the other Africa-centric programs, Under Wild Skies has become the hunting equivalent of Groundhog Day, what with Tony Makris and Johan Calitz appearing to hunt the same animals each week only with different rifles.

And Dangerous Game is apparently being marketed to the 18-25 year-old demographic, with virtually every animal being described by Jeff Rann as "if he gets a chance, he'll kill you". Over-the-top dramatics coupled with all-too-frequent appearances by Chris Dorsey (who has a personality ideally suited for radio), has made this program as predictable as it is irritating.

None of this is to say that TAA won't have the occasional irritant (did I ever mention unfit hunters?), but if your goal is televised near-perfection, your pickings will be slim. And after all, how many near-perfect programs have there been besides I Love Lucy, Masterpiece Theater, Twilight Zone, Frontline, SCTV, NOVA, Seinfeld, Ken Burns' Civil War, The Simpsons, and the PBS Newshour? (I would have added The Sopranos had it not been that Tony Soprano is so out-of-shape.)

That said, when Mark Zuckerberg, who professes he will "eat only what I kill", decides to have Facebook toss a few million bucks Dave's way as a sponsor, I suppose the likelihood of TAA achieving near-perfection will increase. In the meantime, I'll keep looking forward to an always entertaining, if occasionally flawed, Tracks Across Africa every Tuesday.

What was wrong with the first shot? It looked well-placed to me and while the lion was able to get to its feet it was not able to move from the spot. This obviously all came together quickly and I view it as good hunting luck to have the lion asleep in the open.

So what would you have done, Larry?

Good ? Will.

Will - I will not take a shot at any animal that is asleep, anywhere, anytime. Have had numerous chances to do so over the years. So I guess the answer to your question is that I would have passed on the shot in question. I don't shoot game birds on the ground, don't shoot ducks and other waterfowl on the water, don't use TNT to fish with, don't shoot from a vehicle. Just my way of seeing things. As I said before any and all who want to partake in the actions above, fine with me.

Dave seemed to make a real point in letting everyone know that he has more Lion experience than me. Not really relevant to anything. Even though he has no real facts about this, I will let everyone know it is true so as not to hurt his feelings. Tracking and stalking up on any wild animal is tough, but doing so on one that is sound asleep might not be quite as hard? Sorry Dave, but shooting a sleeping Lion is not on my list of must do, no matter what the circumstance. I'll leave that up to those repeat clients you mentioned.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:


So what would you have done, Larry?

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Will - I will not take a shot at any animal that is asleep, anywhere, anytime. Have had numerous chances to do so over the years. So I guess the answer to your question is that I would have passed on the shot in question. I don't shoot game birds on the ground, don't shoot ducks and other waterfowl on the water, don't use TNT to fish with, don't shoot from a vehicle. Just my way of seeing things. As I said before any and all who want to partake in the actions above, fine with me.

Dave seemed to make a real point in letting everyone know that he has more Lion experience than me. Not really relevant to anything. Even though he has no real facts about this, I will let everyone know it is true so as not to hurt his feelings. Tracking and stalking up on any wild animal is tough, but doing so on one that is sound asleep might not be quite as hard? Sorry Dave, but shooting a sleeping Lion is not on my list of must do, no matter what the circumstance. I'll leave that up to those repeat clients you mentioned.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:


So what would you have done, Larry?

Hmmm....I guess I don't see your examples as anything like shooting the sleeping lion. I agree with the other examples you cited but don't feel they are a fair comparison to the situation being debated.

There was no way this lion was going to take a step, turn slightly, or make any other adjustment that could cause an errant shot. Hell, don't we all prefer to wait for the perfect broadside shot? Isn't this even better? No (well, at least very little) chance of the cat shifting position that could cause a poor hit.

I just don't see the problem with it. If I slip up on a bull elk in it's bed and slip one behind his ear, I'm going to feel pretty damn good about my hunting ability and don't see this as a whole lot different.

I did not watch the show but was always taught not to risk shots at cats lying prone as the margin for error is too great.

The PH must have done well to get his client into a shooting position and felt the risk was worth the trophy.

If my client was Larry then we would have simply done it a different way.

This sequence is also shown on the latest Carter DVD 'Beasts of Legend'.

Geez you blokes whip yourselves into a frenzy over nothing. It's the hunters call, he pays the money and gets judged accordingly. It also demonstrates that a good outfit knows the animals in its area and their habits.

I am not saying that anyone would not be true to their own professed moral code . . . but I have to say that I honestly wonder whether someone that has paid $45K for a lion hunt, has hunted hard for 17 days, is on the last day of the hunt and they track and catch up to a sleeping lion, whether that person is really going to puff their chest out and declare, "Just not cricket, old boy, let's head back to camp to pack up." It is always easier to make moral and ethical judgments from the comfort of a computer chair than it is in the field.

Oh, and by the way, comparing shooting a sleeping lion that has been tracked to where he is bedded down to fishing with dynamite is . . . well stretching it a bit in my opinion.

And so there is no confusion where I stand, if I track and catch up to a sleeping lion, the last sound the lion will have a chance to hear is the sound of the safety being flipped off.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
If my client was Larry then we would have simply done it a different way.

We know . . . the client's gun would not even have been loaded.

I have no problem with Larry or anybody else saying"personally, I would have not shot that lion in that position" but to say " Thats it, I'm done with Tracks and Hornady," well like Russel I thought," You got to be kidding !"
Nevertheless I respect his option and choice to say adios to a show we produce for guys that love Africa and dangerous game hunting. I do not know if Larry is a football fan, but if so, I hope the quarterback of his favorite team never fumbles or throws a pick cause it will be " Thats it Aaron Rogers, I am never watching another Packers game " Oh well.....

I have only shot one lion. That lion was totally unsuspecting of our presence, busily clawing at a bait we had put in a tree. The only reason I didn't shoot more than once is that the lion immediately bounded away roaring into the long grass. A few seconds later it died. I don't see any difference between that and shooting an unsuspecting lion that is asleep. I have shot many animals which were unaware of my presence.

I too have heard that the distribution of a cat's internal organs can be changed if they are lying down, but I think that shooting for the middle of the chest with a .375 would do the job no matter what.

I didn't see the show. I don't have a problem with what was done based upon what i read here.

Mike: That safety comment was funny as hell.

Well.........haven't seen the show - so I DO NOT have a clue, and I do not have a dog in this fight - BUT I WILL TELL YOU ONE THING FOR SURE..........I am going to Bots to hunt Elephant with daughter and g'daughter in 50 days, (but who's counting). Hunting with Graeme Pollock of Safari Botswana Bound. IF.......we find a big old Tusker standing in the shade with good Ivory, and he is 7/8's of the way asleep, and I can get a good side brain shot - Well, he ain't never gonna wake up as far as I am concerned!!!!!!!!!! It will be the long term dirt nap for him! Just sayin'. Someone send me 65 to 85K and I will give you my opionion on Lion.

Dave- Just curious as to how many Lions you have personally taken? It's just sad to see your Shows that have had the upmost quality, respect and character slip to this level for whatever reason was behind it. I am a football fan, and I see you do admit to fumbling every once in a while. Hopefully you will hold the ball a little tighter in the future?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I have no problem with Larry or anybody else saying"personally, I would have not shot that lion in that position" but to say " Thats it, I'm done with Tracks and Hornady," well like Russel I thought," You got to be kidding !"
Nevertheless I respect his option and choice to say adios to a show we produce for guys that love Africa and dangerous game hunting. I do not know if Larry is a football fan, but if so, I hope the quarterback of his favorite team never fumbles or throws a pick cause it will be " Thats it Aaron Rogers, I am never watching another Packers game " Oh well.....

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
Isn't it everyone's ambition to die in their sleep? If one of our goals as hunters is to be as humane as possible, somehow waking a sleeping beast only to shoot him as he recovers from his slumber hardly seems to be in that spirit.

As for the hunting programs Dave & Co. produce, I believe they are hands down the most professional of their kind. Low-key narration, well paced and professionally edited, frequently educational, plus more and more real hunters (as opposed to sponsor executives who are as appealing as many in-laws) – Tracks Across Africa is the cream of the crop.

As for the other Africa-centric programs, Under Wild Skies has become the hunting equivalent of Groundhog Day, what with Tony Makris and Johan Calitz appearing to hunt the same animals each week only with different rifles.

And Dangerous Game is apparently being marketed to the 18-25 year-old demographic, with virtually every animal being described by Jeff Rann as "if he gets a chance, he'll kill you". Over-the-top dramatics coupled with all-too-frequent appearances by Chris Dorsey (who has a personality ideally suited for radio), has made this program as predictable as it is irritating.

None of this is to say that TAA won't have the occasional irritant (did I ever mention unfit hunters?), but if your goal is televised near-perfection, your pickings will be slim. And after all, how many near-perfect programs have there been besides I Love Lucy, Masterpiece Theater, Twilight Zone, Frontline, SCTV, NOVA, Seinfeld, Ken Burns' Civil War, The Simpsons, and the PBS Newshour? (I would have added The Sopranos had it not been that Tony Soprano is so out-of-shape.)

That said, when Mark Zuckerberg, who professes he will "eat only what I kill", decides to have Facebook toss a few million bucks Dave's way as a sponsor, I suppose the likelihood of TAA achieving near-perfection will increase. In the meantime, I'll keep looking forward to an always entertaining, if occasionally flawed, Tracks Across Africa every Tuesday.

Kim, well said as usual. If I had your skill with words, I would become an author. Especially the part about "some sponsor executives who are about as appealing as some in-laws." Just what I needed in the middle of a boring, sleepy afternoon. Laughter is a wonderful medicine.

Tom

One more thing before I shut up. The really sad thing is that the fellow that was the hunter on this hunt is as decent, unassuming and dedicated a sportsman as someone would ever hope to meet. He is someone that any of us would be happy to share a camp with, and I have. Pity to see his hunt denigrated by the moral pronouncements of a few.

I agree with Michael Robinson when he says, "That's how it happens sometimes." Sure, most of us would prefer a more dramatic and exciting scenario, but it doesn't always happen that way. If you're going to kill the animal anyway, why not have him die in his sleep? Insisting that he be awake and looking at you is merely a selfish desire, so that you can claim a more exciting hunt and have a better "memory" of the hunt, is it not?

I can tell you this - If I'm ever lucky enough to sneek up on a 30" plus mule deer here in Utah, and he happens to be snoozing, my bullet will be on the way to his sweet spot whether he's awake or not, and I will call that LUCK, and be proud that I was able to sneek up on him.

One more thing. It would probably take an entire SEASON of bad Hornady's Africa or TAA shows or whatever else Dave is filming for me to consider stop watching the show.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

And after all, how many near-perfect programs have there been besides I Love Lucy, Masterpiece Theater, Twilight Zone, Frontline, SCTV, NOVA, Seinfeld, Ken Burns' Civil War, The Simpsons, and the PBS Newshour? (I would have added The Sopranos had it not been that Tony Soprano is so out-of-shape.)

Kim, why pick on Tony Soprano? Homer Simpson ain't exactly svelte...