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Couple things before I give my opinions. First, this is I and I alone speaking for myself. Adam has addressed his role in fulfilling his obligations in the other thread. People have expressed their displeasure for my contributions and thoughts and the last thing I want is for my good friend Adam to take blame for what I think. So that is why I have started a second thread that replies to issue raised in the other thread personal to me. I will throw in my thoughts on ethics or lack thereof as it may pertain to certain elements of this board. Second, I will say some things here that are directed at certain people and I do not want all that read it to feel it is directed at them. There are some wonderful, intelligent, knowledgeable and decent folks here who I have enjoyed reading about their hunts and opinions. I will miss that part of this forum. When I first came here and posted my lion hunt I was so glad to find a place where hunters could share experiences and opinions even on sometimes-touchy issues. It didn’t take me long to see the acrimony, negative posting and outright lawlessness about this place. But I stayed because every now and then the good showed through. It didn’t take long to see that people who I like to think are decent just were smart enough, unlike myself, to not engage the mob. It is a shame because I personally believe there are more of you out there than the mob. To those of you who are as described above I thank you for your sharing. I will address from most recent to the earliest my crimes as alleged by the mob then try and put things into perspective. The latest disingenuous attack involves my posting in the clever and entertaining thread involving the gorgeous lion that turned out was collared. The original question posed in that thread was if you see this lion and the PH says shoot, what do you do? Yes in that thread on that lion I said shoot because we do what the PH says. Despite lacking any degree of similarity to a situation involving say a 2-year-old lion, the mob slapped itself on the back and proclaimed that was the greatest find ever. I wonder if the same juvenile who took the time to read all my past posts just happened to miss my position in a truly relevant thread or was he motivated otherwise? You might remember the one where Aaron Nielson was burned at the cross for daring to suggest the hunter who shot the baby lion might have some responsibility. I stood by Aaron who you have successfully silenced. Isn’t that exactly what we are talking about here? Here is what I said and a link This is what the hunter posted in his report and was quoted in my reply This was the first time we had seen both lions in full daylight. The blueish grey lion was huge but also completely maneless, looked to be a older lion. The other lion was a little smaller body size but had a better mane than we had first thought. As we discussed whether or not to shoot the lion layed down in the grass, just his head was visible. I decided I was going to shoot this lion because I would rather kill a respectible lion than hunt for a monster and go home empty handed." Here is what I had to say He gets what he deserves for that attitude. What ever happened to taking the experience home without regard to whether you got your "limit". He consciously chose to kill the younger baby lion for the sake of the mane. And one thing is without a doubt, the PH should lose his license. Did anyone notice this was a "Blair Worldwide" brokered hunt. Seems I remember another thread about this outfit. Y'all are going soft here. I have seen grey turned to black and white here so much since I joined it blows me away to see when something is without a doubt black it gets called white” Sound familiar or relevant to “all gone’s” situation? Is that consistent enough with my positions I have taken here? And to the juvenile who left that out of your attempt to discredit me by taking a post about a super lion with a beautiful picture included know that I consulted my thirteen year old so I could get the words such that you would understand. Total and epic fail. Now to address my most egregious crime of spilling the beans about the dead buff that involved bribes. How dumb of me to attack the hero of the leader of this board and his faithful mob. You should know it is not unique to my day job to keep track of what people say and when they say it. It is perhaps sometimes the most revealing information you can maintain about their character and motives. Richard this is in response to your question about why I revealed the information and ironically I need nothing more than your own words: On Nov. 10th; “There are two sides to every story and i welcome whomever would like to step forward and make their peace. They know what i am saying is true and they do not have a leg to stand on. Everything that i have stated is true and factual and will continue to stay that way.” Later the same day; “C'mon guys stand up and tell your side of the story. I am sure everyone would like to hear it including me.” Here’s is one I find ironic in light of the buff and how it complicated Adams financial dealing with Wayne, on Nov 12th; “I promise you i will be as honest as possible. Maybe a little long winded at times but i want to put ALL the facts on the table in hopes of a fair outcome.” Emphasis not added by me. Need any more to answer you question Richard? Anybody else? Some of you accuse me of using the buff to detract from the tragedy of killing the elephant. I tried blue in the face to explain the PH’s is 100% at fault but Richard’s mistake on the buff and hiding it was clearly relevant ONLY to complaints that Adam wasn’t doing enough. Here is a guy claiming he should get all of the 10k back on the Ele and shame on you Adam for not coming through. Here are exactly Wayne’s words from his email on how the buffalo played into what Adam could or could not do. “ “D . My last thing which has upset me the most he bribed the scout after wounding his Buffalo which he begged Tim to help him ( as a dead bull was found shortly after his hunt !!! ) ,what type of a real man is he !!! l only found this out now. Your request to me to refund him for the elephant might have been a possibility and I was considering it, but after I found out all the details on the hunt and with this client hiding something this important is not good. I will agree that if Tim forced Richard to shoot that elephant then he fucked up, but Tim is telling me that the Richard asked if he could shoot it and Tim told him that it was not big but if he wanted it to go ahead? So, I have a different story here and wanted to make sure that I handle the client accordingly and thought that your suggestion of a refund was okay, but now I don’t trust the guy and think he maybe making up his own stories.” Does anyone get that to this day Richard has not admitted that he owes for the dead buff? The one Adam has paid 3k out of his own pocket for? It doesn’t surprise me that until warned off yesterday Richard/all gone was ready willing and able to sell HIS ele hide to the taxidermist(no its not much money Richard but it is principle) Oh I almost forgot to tell you he was also until yesterday planning on keeping a panel of the ele hide for his own personal use. Shameful While we are on words used on specific dates I am perplexed by the position of the leader of this board. When I made Richards bribe public I think it might have maybe moved Saeed’s moral compass a little towards trying to get all the facts and instead of beating the drum for his new hero and condemning Adam. He headed for cover after that revelation and said on Nov. 17: “You seem to forget one very simple fact. I have absolutely nothing to do with this fiasco. My only involvement is having an open forum where hunters and those in the business of hunting can discuss their hunts.” Sure Saeed you have just sat back in this mess as a casual observer who coincidentally runs a board. More on that from me later. Adam came out with his version on Nov. 18th and in response Saeed said: “Adam, Well done. What you have done and offered in this case goes far beyond your involvemnt in this sad fiasco. You certainly were not to blame for what had happened.” But then the mob let their leader know more blood was required. Perhaps Mark was involved and what about this and what about that? Without a single new important fact coming to light Saeed said on Nov 24th: “Adam would not have been in this situation if he stopped booking hunts with Wayne, as it looks like there have been problems with that operation before, and Adam was well aware of it. How did Richard complicate things for Adam in solving this problem? Yes, I know, by posting it on a public forum. I suppose a public forum has just become the arch enemy of both Adam and Wayne, when a problem arises. But it is OK to sell hunts on this very same public forum….. Dragging their feet, and putting the blame somewhere else, will have exactly the opposite effect. If Adam wants to clean up some of the mess he gets into, may be he should stop dealing with shady characters, especial;ly as he had complaints about them in the past.” Just what your mob wanted to hear. My question is when were you telling the truth? When you said Adam had done all he could and should not take blame or later when you blame him for Wayne? Also what happened to being just a provider of an open forum? Now to ethics or rather the lack of them. Saeed and the mob have chosen to endorse Richard as a hero for bringing his problems to this board and letting the board do its fine work. He is all yours if you endorse him and you don’t get to pick and chose the parts of his character that fit your arguments. He is your hero and if you chose to defend him you are saying you support him. He REFLECTS on you. Here are his descriptions of his hunt Nov. 9th he wrote: “The Bull was lamed up and next to the airstrip, it was the first night in camp before the hunt even started, we needed Leopard bait.Right or wrong, I decided it was best to take it. It was the beginning of my once in a lifetime safari, i was excited to say the least what can i say.” Now let’s compare what he said in his exciting hunting report on Nov 11th “Instead of jumping into the bush it runs out across the airstrip into the wide open. Big mistake on his part. We could clearly see that he was lamed up for some reason and could not run very fast. Tim speeds up and cuts him off enough to stop him. We are now about 100 yards apart. Tim said if you want him shoot him. he also said we need Leopard bait. To me it was a no brainer. BANG! Damn, i missed. I shot to the left of him and missed completly. I jacked another round in. He just stood there. This time i settled down some and sqeezed the trigger instead of jerking it. That time it hit home….” The post goes on with respect to shooting from the boat at the bushbuck and he ADMITS: ‘Yes i shot the bushbuck from the boat. I know i will get some flack over that but thats how it happened.” Despite admitting to reading this forum for a year with its many heated threads on shooting from a vehicle, and despite hunting deer, 8 elk, Mountain lion, mountain goat, dall sheep and black bear(per his own posts), and despite admitting having to make a “right or wrong” decision on the crippled Kudu, and despite admitting in his hunting report the shooting from the boat was wrong, he writes on Nov. 21 regarding the taking of the plains game from boat and vehicle: ” I wasen't awhere that shooting from the vehicle or the boat were illigal. How does one know what is legal or not on a hunt in Zim. Is it my obligation to find this stuff out or should the PH point these things out and not allow it to happen? If it is my responsibity i was not told this before hand by ACST. Should i assume that it was not ACST's responsibity either? Is it possible that it is all taken for granted?” Add to the above he shot and mortally wounded a buff, lost it and bribed a game guard. What I find telling is when the buff went public he blamed the poor shot on the PH, who made him once again fire. This is surely the kind of people who will fit in well with this mob and their leader. Take no personal responsibility and blame others. Richard has found a home and is already “one of us”. We are in trouble as hunters as it is. To support conduct like his actions and defend him to the hilt will get what the antis want. Do you think for a moment they care whether the PH said to shoot? My fellow Texan who has never hunted Africa got it right when he replied to mob about his ethics; He carries his ethics wherever he goes. . Saeed, whether you care to take responsibility for this board or not, the fact is you are responsible. I will quote you when you discuss how what happens to members reflects on all of us. Here are your words: “Also, I don't think anyone of us likes to see a booking agent, outfitter or PH get a complaint against him. Ultimately, we consider all of them as part of our own community, and anything that reflects badly on them, affects us all” I once upon a long time ago had a hobby that I got so good at I was selected with 4 other gentlemen to moderate a 15,000-member Internet board of professionals. We had our share of bad eggs but the place was a place where genuine polite discussion could be had. It got heated but it never denigrated to what you allow here. When a member gets called a whore you get called a whore. Any name-calling is on your tab and there is plenty of that to go around with utterly disrespectful language, rude behavior and disrespect. That conduct and more importantly your failure to stop it indeed reflects on you. When you allow people to trash reputations they are trashing your reputation if they are wrong. You have made this a place where opinions get stifled for fear of your mob. Disagree all you want but go back and read that thread from start to finish and see if that reflects well on you. Think of every post as one directed at you. This board’s ethics are just like Richard’s ethics as adopted by you and the mob. The word reflects was chosen properly by you in the quote above. Have the last say all of you Internet warriors. You don’t know me because if you did you would never question my skills as a lawyer. I have achieved spectacular results for clients throughout the United States in high profile cases and hold some of the highest honors an attorney can achieve. The day Richard became “one of us” is the day I don’t want to be “one of us”. No matter what you say I have dignity and dignity compels that I not waste any time on “all of you”. Stick to your new friend Richard, as you are more alike than different. Kalahari Lion (Bots 07) | ||
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I thought an open forum is where everyone has their say, without being censored. Ok, that is NOT the way it should be to a lawyer representing one of the involved parties. I should not be the one who picks and chooses who his posts his opinion. If I did that, then it would NOT be an open Forum. Richard, as well as Adam are posting exactly what they wish to post, or are you insinuating that I should only let Adam say what he wants, and stop Richard? I do get the impression that my idea of an "open forum" is not to your liking, in that case, please feel free to go and participate on a forum that caters to your idea of what an "open forum" should be. I will say it again. It gives me no pleasure to hear about this sort of mess regarding a hunt. Whether the culprit is the client, the PH, the outfitter or the booking agent. It gives me even less pleasure to see more than one complaint against someone in the hunting industry. It tells me there is something drastically wrong, which should be sorted out to make sure it does not occur again! I honestly think you will be doing Adam a great favor if you do stay out of this mess. He is doing a good job of trying to sort it out, while you, on the other hand, seem to be doing the exact opposite. | |||
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Just like I thought. You Chose to not answer my direct question about which of your own conflicting statements we are to believe. You are not as clever as you think you are and people will see through your excuses. Kalahari Lion (Bots 07) | |||
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I think there are two things Adam should do immediately. Never, ever, book hunts with Wayne. Get himself a decent lawyer | |||
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It would seem you had a change of heart. ______________________ | |||
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Silence is golden Meaning: A proverbial saying, often used in circumstances where it is thought that saying nothing is preferable to speaking. JMHO JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Did you guys really read all that diatribe? If so, I admire your persistence, patience and tenacity. I could really live with DawnRoar not being "one of us." | |||
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My eyes glazed over... Looks like dawnsnore went to the Hugo Chavez school of law and cOmmunications. The one thing that just doesn't make sense is Snore's protests. Mr Clements painted a saintly picture of himself, strangely omitting how, when, and most importantly why he loaded this shill. Backfire, I would say. Good day to you sirs "You only gotta do one thing well to make it in this world" - J Joplin | |||
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A memorable quote from one Curly Bill.. "Well, bye".. | |||
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I have to say that I , at least partially agree with DR. 1-The repeated reference to "whore" is childish and shows no class whatsoever. 2-AG most certainly did some illegal/unethical things. 3- There is most certainly a lynch mob mentality from time to time here on AR. 4- from the perspective of resolving the issues' the posting of the other thread by AG is almost assuredly detrimental toward his efforts to resolve the issues. Having said this, I am totally puzzled and totally in disagreement with his comments about Saeed. He makes it sound as if Saeed is some omnipotent cult leader. Saeed let both sides air their side of the story. What could be more fair? I find that I personally agree with what Saeed posted. I also see elements where I thing ACST is right and some where AG is right. That is the way i interpret Saeed's comments. If I understand correctly, the "one of us description" is something that occurs automatically after a certain number of posts . It not a measure of acceptance by the members and/or Saeed. In any group this many people posting, there is little doubt that one will encounter a wide variety of personalities. Some are no doubt less than desirable. However , in my personal experience, my AR friends are decent, honorable and ethical individuals. | |||
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Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Dawnroar, I believe that you would have been treated with a lot less animosity if you had stated up front that you were an attorney representing Adam. The way that you went out on the attack with no explanantion of your professional involvement was misleading and borderline unethical. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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+1 Well put JG! | |||
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Or even better explanation: better to say nothing and be thought of as an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt. Caleb | |||
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You are really doing your client a dis-service. How could you possibly think that starting another thread on the same subject was going to help him? Why not just go post this on numerous other hunting web sites to get a larger sample size to take sides on this issue? ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Saeed, just a thought out of left field here. Maybe there needs to be a special topic area, specifically set up for such situations as this one, that only the individuals involved, could respond too. Every situation has more than one side too it. When the "Peanut Gallery" "Kangaroo Court" gets involved, the whole perspective of the issue changes. This is especially true if the actual parties involved are planning on taking the matter into litigation. I like the fact that a person can post about problems they had with a hunt, but having non-involved individuals voicing their opinion, pro or con, one side of the issue or the other, to me muddies the waters, and it becomes a popularity issue. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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We do. It's called email. "You only gotta do one thing well to make it in this world" - J Joplin | |||
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I don't agree with the email BS, especially if one of the individuals involved uses this site as a means of attracting business. Emais/PM's do not do anything to disseminate any information concerning an operator that might not be totally on the up and up. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I think it's possible he has though under a different user name over on 24hourcampfire.com. | |||
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Gloria Allred is that you???? Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brett, that is rich! And funny. Tom ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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I sincerely hope you aren't implying you are somehow anonymous on this board. I identified you in about 45 seconds. | |||
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Chester? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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"If the gloves don't fit, you must aquit!" Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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Didn't realize that peeing on ones shoes was an honor.... | |||
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Nice! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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No, this is dawn roar's website, I beleive.. http://rdonato.com/ Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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HA! VEry good JBrown...was easy, wasn't it? The format you posted it in tells me you found it the same way I did. | |||
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As much as I do not care for the tactics used by DR on this, I think this is HIGHLY inappropriate , this man has family pictures on this. Family is OFF LIMITS Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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I think we should another honor to his long list of them. How to ruin your client's reputation without even trrying! This is so funny. | |||
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I agree to an extent, but DR chose to throw a mild challenge by stating how great he was without identifying himself; a clear challenge for people to try. JBrown figured it out and that's that. It doesn't take much work at all to find his site; in fact DR is the one who provided the information (if JBrown figured it out the same way I did). It's not rocket science. If DR thinks that what he posts on a personal site is not easily available to those who seek it, he is surprisingly naive. | |||
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So just because he finds it, he posts it? Doesn't that put Jason's ethics into question? Perhaps a PM was in order? Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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http://rdonato.com/ As much as I do not care for the tactics used by DR on this, I think this is HIGHLY inappropriate, this man has family pictures on this. Family is OFF LIMITS. DRR: He created the website and offered all the details to the public - a result of egotism perhaps? | |||
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So were back to, if it's legal it's ok? I see. It sucks that a mans kids are not automatically off limits Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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I found his website the same way guys but reading the home page it appears he made this for his friends to view. Sure, it's out there for all to find and see but really, he has his family identified there. They are not participating in this discussion and probably are unaware of this fracas. Personally, I would like to see the link to his site removed as I don't think it is fair to his family. | |||
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+1 ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I find this whole subject noisesome. It's hard enough to prepare for a safari without having to wade through a bunch of disjointed drivel about who's making excuses for whom. I've been on three safaris and nobody had to make any excuses for anyone. Just to be on the safe side, I think I will just resolve never to book a hunt with Adam Clements and ignore further posts on this subject. BTW: On 24hourcampfire there's a post about a guy who got screwed on another Adam Cements hunt. One question, though: Did anyone ever post a photo of the "baby elephant" and where can we see it? Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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It was posted in the original thread along with others but seems to have been taken down. It is available via other means though, but hell if I'll provide a link... | |||
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I found it! This was taken right before they brought the water to a full boil. Never try a cranial tag with a 22lr as it doesn't seem to knock the smile off their face. I'm sure it was tender though.... | |||
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