Ethics and Hunters

Couple things before I give my opinions.
First, this is I and I alone speaking for myself. Adam has addressed his role in fulfilling his obligations in the other thread. People have expressed their displeasure for my contributions and thoughts and the last thing I want is for my good friend Adam to take blame for what I think. So that is why I have started a second thread that replies to issue raised in the other thread personal to me. I will throw in my thoughts on ethics or lack thereof as it may pertain to certain elements of this board.

Second, I will say some things here that are directed at certain people and I do not want all that read it to feel it is directed at them. There are some wonderful, intelligent, knowledgeable and decent folks here who I have enjoyed reading about their hunts and opinions. I will miss that part of this forum. When I first came here and posted my lion hunt I was so glad to find a place where hunters could share experiences and opinions even on sometimes-touchy issues. It didn’t take me long to see the acrimony, negative posting and outright lawlessness about this place. But I stayed because every now and then the good showed through. It didn’t take long to see that people who I like to think are decent just were smart enough, unlike myself, to not engage the mob. It is a shame because I personally believe there are more of you out there than the mob. To those of you who are as described above I thank you for your sharing.

I will address from most recent to the earliest my crimes as alleged by the mob then try and put things into perspective. The latest disingenuous attack involves my posting in the clever and entertaining thread involving the gorgeous lion that turned out was collared. The original question posed in that thread was if you see this lion and the PH says shoot, what do you do? Yes in that thread on that lion I said shoot because we do what the PH says. Despite lacking any degree of similarity to a situation involving say a 2-year-old lion, the mob slapped itself on the back and proclaimed that was the greatest find ever.
I wonder if the same juvenile who took the time to read all my past posts just happened to miss my position in a truly relevant thread or was he motivated otherwise?

You might remember the one where Aaron Nielson was burned at the cross for daring to suggest the hunter who shot the baby lion might have some responsibility. I stood by Aaron who you have successfully silenced.

Isn’t that exactly what we are talking about here? Here is what I said and a link

This is what the hunter posted in his report and was quoted in my reply

This was the first time we had seen both lions in full daylight. The blueish grey lion was huge but also completely maneless, looked to be a older lion. The other lion was a little smaller body size but had a better mane than we had first thought. As we discussed whether or not to shoot the lion layed down in the grass, just his head was visible. I decided I was going to shoot this lion because I would rather kill a respectible lion than hunt for a monster and go home empty handed."

Here is what I had to say

He gets what he deserves for that attitude. What ever happened to taking the experience home without regard to whether you got your "limit". He consciously chose to kill the younger baby lion for the sake of the mane. And one thing is without a doubt, the PH should lose his license. Did anyone notice this was a "Blair Worldwide" brokered hunt. Seems I remember another thread about this
outfit. Y'all are going soft here. I have seen grey turned to black and white here so much since I joined it blows me away to see when something is without a doubt black it gets called white”

Sound familiar or relevant to “all gone’s” situation? Is that consistent enough with my positions I have taken here? And to the juvenile who left that out of your attempt to discredit me by taking a post about a super lion with a beautiful picture included know that I consulted my thirteen year old so I could get the words such that you would understand. Total and epic fail.

Now to address my most egregious crime of spilling the beans about the dead buff that involved bribes. How dumb of me to attack the hero of the leader of this board and his faithful mob. You should know it is not unique to my day job to keep track of what people say and when they say it. It is perhaps sometimes the most revealing information you can maintain about their character and motives. Richard this is in response to your question about why I revealed the information and ironically I need nothing more than your own words:

On Nov. 10th;
“There are two sides to every story and i welcome whomever would like to step forward and make their peace. They know what i am saying is true and they do not have a leg to stand on. Everything that i have stated is true and factual and will continue to stay that way.”
Later the same day;

“C'mon guys stand up and tell your side of the story. I am sure everyone would like to hear it including me.”

Here’s is one I find ironic in light of the buff and how it complicated Adams financial dealing with Wayne, on Nov 12th;

“I promise you i will be as honest as possible. Maybe a little long winded at times but i want to put ALL the facts on the table in hopes of a fair outcome.” Emphasis not added by me.

Need any more to answer you question Richard? Anybody else?

Some of you accuse me of using the buff to detract from the tragedy of killing the elephant. I tried blue in the face to explain the PH’s is 100% at fault but Richard’s mistake on the buff and hiding it was clearly relevant ONLY to complaints that Adam wasn’t doing enough. Here is a guy claiming he should get all of the 10k back on the Ele and shame on you Adam for not coming through. Here are exactly Wayne’s words from his email on how the buffalo played into what Adam could or could not do.

“ “D . My last thing which has upset me the most he bribed the scout after wounding his Buffalo which he begged Tim to help him ( as a dead bull was found shortly after his hunt !!! ) ,what type of a real man is he !!! l only found this out now. Your request to me to refund him for the elephant might have been a possibility and I was considering it, but after I found out all the details on the hunt and with this client hiding something this important is not good. I will agree that if Tim forced Richard to shoot that elephant then he fucked up, but Tim is telling me that the Richard asked if he could shoot it and Tim told him that it was not big but if he wanted it to go ahead? So, I have a different story here and wanted to make sure that I handle the client accordingly and thought that your suggestion of a refund was okay, but now I don’t trust the guy and think he maybe making up his own stories.”

Does anyone get that to this day Richard has not admitted that he owes for the dead buff? The one Adam has paid 3k out of his own pocket for? It doesn’t surprise me that until warned off yesterday Richard/all gone was ready willing and able to sell HIS ele hide to the taxidermist(no its not much money Richard but it is principle) Oh I almost forgot to tell you he was also until yesterday planning on keeping a panel of the ele hide for his own personal use. Shameful

While we are on words used on specific dates I am perplexed by the position of the leader of this board. When I made Richards bribe public I think it might have maybe moved Saeed’s moral compass a little towards trying to get all the facts and instead of beating the drum for his new hero and condemning Adam. He headed for cover after that revelation and said on Nov. 17:

“You seem to forget one very simple fact. I have absolutely nothing to do with this fiasco. My only involvement is having an open forum where hunters and those in the business of hunting can discuss their hunts.”

Sure Saeed you have just sat back in this mess as a casual observer who coincidentally runs a board.
More on that from me later.

Adam came out with his version on Nov. 18th and in response Saeed said:
“Adam, Well done. What you have done and offered in this case goes far beyond your involvemnt in this sad fiasco. You certainly were not to blame for what had happened.”

But then the mob let their leader know more blood was required. Perhaps Mark was involved and what about this and what about that?
Without a single new important fact coming to light Saeed said on Nov 24th:

“Adam would not have been in this situation if he stopped booking hunts with Wayne, as it looks like there have been problems with that operation before, and Adam was well aware of it. How did Richard complicate things for Adam in solving this problem? Yes, I know, by posting it on a public forum. I suppose a public forum has just become the arch enemy of both Adam and Wayne, when a problem arises. But it is OK to sell hunts on this very same public forum….. Dragging their feet, and putting the blame somewhere else, will have exactly the opposite effect. If Adam wants to clean up some of the mess he gets into, may be he should stop dealing with shady characters, especial;ly as he had complaints about them in the past.”

Just what your mob wanted to hear. My question is when were you telling the truth? When you said Adam had done all he could and should not take blame or later when you blame him for Wayne? Also what happened to being just a provider of an open forum?

Now to ethics or rather the lack of them. Saeed and the mob have chosen to endorse Richard as a hero for bringing his problems to this board and letting the board do its fine work. He is all yours if you endorse him and you don’t get to pick and chose the parts of his character that fit your arguments. He is your hero and if you chose to defend him you are saying you support him. He REFLECTS on you. Here are his descriptions of his hunt

Nov. 9th he wrote:
“The Bull was lamed up and next to the airstrip, it was the first night in camp before the hunt even started, we needed Leopard bait.Right or wrong, I decided it was best to take it. It was the beginning of my once in a lifetime safari, i was excited to say the least what can i say.”

Now let’s compare what he said in his exciting hunting report on Nov 11th

“Instead of jumping into the bush it runs out across the airstrip into the wide open. Big mistake on his part. We could clearly see that he was lamed up for some reason and could not run very fast. Tim speeds up and cuts him off enough to stop him. We are now about 100 yards apart. Tim said if you want him shoot him. he also said we need Leopard bait. To me it was a no brainer. BANG! Damn, i missed. I shot to the left of him and missed completly. I jacked another round in. He just stood there. This time i settled down some and sqeezed the trigger instead of jerking it. That time it hit home….”

The post goes on with respect to shooting from the boat at the bushbuck and he ADMITS:
‘Yes i shot the bushbuck from the boat. I know i will get some flack over that but thats how it happened.”

Despite admitting to reading this forum for a year with its many heated threads on shooting from a vehicle, and despite hunting deer, 8 elk, Mountain lion, mountain goat, dall sheep and black bear(per his own posts), and despite admitting having to make a “right or wrong” decision on the crippled Kudu, and despite admitting in his hunting report the shooting from the boat was wrong, he writes on Nov. 21 regarding the taking of the plains game from boat and vehicle:

” I wasen't awhere that shooting from the vehicle or the boat were illigal. How does one know what is legal or not on a hunt in Zim. Is it my obligation to find this stuff out or should the PH point these things out and not allow it to happen? If it is my responsibity i was not told this before hand by ACST. Should i assume that it was not ACST's responsibity either? Is it possible that it is all taken for granted?”

Add to the above he shot and mortally wounded a buff, lost it and bribed a game guard. What I find telling is when the buff went public he blamed the poor shot on the PH, who made him once again fire.

This is surely the kind of people who will fit in well with this mob and their leader. Take no personal responsibility and blame others. Richard has found a home and is already “one of us”.
We are in trouble as hunters as it is. To support conduct like his actions and defend him to the hilt will get what the antis want. Do you think for a moment they care whether the PH said to shoot? My fellow Texan who has never hunted Africa got it right when he replied to mob about his ethics; He carries his ethics wherever he goes.

.
Saeed, whether you care to take responsibility for this board or not, the fact is you are responsible. I will quote you when you discuss how what happens to members reflects on all of us. Here are your words:
“Also, I don't think anyone of us likes to see a booking agent, outfitter or PH get a complaint against him. Ultimately, we consider all of them as part of our own community, and anything that reflects badly on them, affects us all”

I once upon a long time ago had a hobby that I got so good at I was selected with 4 other gentlemen to moderate a 15,000-member Internet board of professionals. We had our share of bad eggs but the place was a place where genuine polite discussion could be had. It got heated but it never denigrated to what you allow here. When a member gets called a whore you get called a whore. Any name-calling is on your tab and there is plenty of that to go around with utterly disrespectful language, rude behavior and disrespect. That conduct and more importantly your failure to stop it indeed reflects on you. When you allow people to trash reputations they are trashing your reputation if they are wrong. You have made this a place where opinions get stifled for fear of your mob. Disagree all you want but go back and read that thread from start to finish and see if that reflects well on you. Think of every post as one directed at you. This board’s ethics are just like Richard’s ethics as adopted by you and the mob. The word reflects was chosen properly by you in the quote above.

Have the last say all of you Internet warriors. You don’t know me because if you did you would never question my skills as a lawyer. I have achieved spectacular results for clients throughout the United States in high profile cases and hold some of the highest honors an attorney can achieve.

The day Richard became “one of us” is the day I don’t want to be “one of us”. No matter what you say I have dignity and dignity compels that I not waste any time on “all of you”. Stick to your new friend Richard, as you are more alike than different.

Kalahari Lion (Bots 07)

Posts: 101 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 03 October 2010

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