Without turning this into another senseless political pissing match over who is a better President, I'm not sure any of us have a comprehensive understanding of what Trump feels from a sound bite from an interview. The guy has a tendency of saying things to elicit a response - seems to be working here.

Anyhow, the real questions and clarification should be coming from Zinke about what the Administration is or isn't doing to combat corruption. He also should be working to allow legally harvested ivory to be imported. The harm has already been done and there is NO point in punishing hunters for something they 1. had no knowledge of and 2. had no control over.

The excuse of Government corruption (if it exists in the wildlife sector) should not be used to initiate trade bans with Africa.

Better to witness and understand what is happening on the ground here and initiate sustainable solutions for wildlife that will enhance the survival of the species.

The true 'horror show' is the decimation of wildlife by poaching and to some degree war.

quote:

Anyhow, the real questions and clarification should be coming from Zinke about what the Administration is or isn't doing to combat corruption. He also should be working to allow legally harvested ivory to be imported. The harm has already been done and there is NO point in punishing hunters for something they 1. had no knowledge of and 2. had no control over.

Plus One. The American Government has no business punishing its own citizens over trophies that were taken in a completely legal manner.

fairgame - The initial ban was an animal rights issue. Continuing the ban supposedly is corruption.

The animal rights argument is silly and full of misguided nonsense.

The corruption angle is real.

Who knows what the Administration is contemplating or what they will eventually do... this is like reading tea leaves.

President Trump gives his honest opinion/thoughts on topics. This is probably the first President (at least in modern history) who does this.

Therefore, everything he says or does will not make all of his supporters happy.

On a topic like elephant hunting, which he is probably aware of all the implications, he is open to being set up by the Trump haters.

It is up to honest people to educate him about the realities of elephant hunting. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of honest people in D.C.. Hopefully, his son, who is a hunter, can and will educate him about big game hunting in Africa (to include elephants).

BH63

BTW: One thing I have noticed about this President, is that he likes to keep the opposition off balance, and guessing. Perhaps that is part of his strategy of negotiation?

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
President Trump gives his honest opinion/thoughts on topics. This is probably the first President (at least in modern history) who does this.

Therefore, everything he says or does will not make all of his supporters happy.

On a topic like elephant hunting, which he is probably aware of all the implications, he is open to being set up by the Trump haters.

It is up to honest people to educate him about the realities of elephant hunting. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of honest people in D.C.. Hopefully, his son, who is a hunter, can and will educate him about big game hunting in Africa (to include elephants).

BH63

BTW: One thing I have noticed about this President, is that he likes to keep the opposition off balance, and guessing. Perhaps that is part of his strategy of negotiation?

Calling hunting in Africa a "horror show" is his honest opinion.

Anyone have a link to the shows transcript? I would like to know what exactly Trumps position

Gunslinger: just google Trumps call elephant hunting a horror show and you can see his tweet.

The tweet is actually worse because he says hard to convince him this horror show helps conseration of Elephants or ANY Animal.

The added emphasis to Any Animal has s mine with caps. He attacked all hunting.

Just google it and you can see his face right beside it.

This tweet was sent out in November 2017. He cannot back away from it all hie wants. The damage to hunting to is done by him. I have no use for him.

quote:

Calling hunting in Africa a "horror show" is his honest opinion.

And he is WRONG!!!!

Do you and your ilk understand that????

You and your kind have an option, make enemies out of those that will help and support you or alienate us and suffer the consequences. choice is yours!

Here's a link to the transcript from his interview.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/...gan-full-transcript/
As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, you can find his tweets by Googling them

My question remains, what is accomplished by hunters openly alienating each other and who wins in the long run?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Calling hunting in Africa a "horror show" is his honest opinion.

And he is WRONG!!!!

Do you and your ilk understand that????

You and your kind have an option, make enemies out of those that will help and support you or alienate us and suffer the consequences. choice is yours!

Aren’t you openly alienating hunters?

No, not in the least.

Just because I do not want to hunt in Africa does that mean in ANY WAY that I have a problem with those that do!

How about the comments of those that do hunt Africa, claiming that Americans that are not interested in hunting Africa are not REALLY hunters????????

You and your ilk complain about our "Lack Of Ethics" because we have no problem shooting animals inside a High Fence.

Maybe it is time that ALL OF US step back for just a moment and understand that ALL OF US that enjoy hunting, Regardless Of The Country/Species are facing a "Common Enemy" that wants to take the ONE THING WE ALL HAVE IN COMMON AWAY FROM US!!!!!!!!!

How difficult is that for anyone that is a hunter to understand??????

Guys, we can debate this most recent outcome for weeks - its not gonna fix the problem.

We need guys like Larry Shores, Dr. Lane Easter, and others to help propose possible solutions moving forward? I don't know the answer, if I did I have a big enough mouth - I would say so?

I agree with Dave Fulson, Trump hugely failed us on this one - it stings and its very unfortunate. But....its reality now, so is there anyone / any organization that has a plan to perhaps fix this debacle?

Fact is....the elephant is losing the most and that's the part that stings for us all more than anything!!!!!

PM: Quick question on trophy hunting. You seemed to indicate that you’ve had a change of mind about this, or you’d like the administration to.

DT: I changed it. I didn’t want elephants killed and stuffed and have the tusks bought back into this. And people can talk all they want about preservation and all of the things that they’re saying, where money goes toward – well money in that case was going to a government which was probably taking the money, OK? I do not, I turned that order around. That was an order.

Is is what you are complaining about, that Trump recognizes that the money is not really going into conservation but to Switzerland c/o Uncle Bob.

I think what we need to find out is whether this decision is carved in stone or whether additional information can be presented. Clearly, the President zeroed in on the trophy fee issue. There is an element of truth to that. There is more to the story than just the trophy fees.

I think something is going on. Not sure what. Strange things are occurring or not occurring as the case may be. I will leave it at that.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Without turning this into another senseless political pissing match over who is a better President, I'm not sure any of us have a comprehensive understanding of what Trump feels from a sound bite from an interview. The guy has a tendency of saying things to elicit a response - seems to be working here.

Anyhow, the real questions and clarification should be coming from Zinke about what the Administration is or isn't doing to combat corruption. He also should be working to allow legally harvested ivory to be imported. The harm has already been done and there is NO point in punishing hunters for something they 1. had no knowledge of and 2. had no control over.

Isn't this whole argument now about politics?

May be it wasn't, until Trump jumped on the bandwagon, trying to get brownie points with the left, who never supported him in the first place?

Yes Bernie Sanders. All you guys had to do was back him. Instead you went to Russia!

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:

quote:

You vote for a POS and you get a POS.

Did you ever stop to think about the alternative in our last presidential election?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
No, not in the least.

Just because I do not want to hunt in Africa does that mean in ANY WAY that I have a problem with those that do!

How about the comments of those that do hunt Africa, claiming that Americans that are not interested in hunting Africa are not REALLY hunters????????

You and your ilk complain about our "Lack Of Ethics" because we have no problem shooting animals inside a High Fence.

Maybe it is time that ALL OF US step back for just a moment and understand that ALL OF US that enjoy hunting, Regardless Of The Country/Species are facing a "Common Enemy" that wants to take the ONE THING WE ALL HAVE IN COMMON AWAY FROM US!!!!!!!!!

How difficult is that for anyone that is a hunter to understand??????

I have never killed an animal behind a high fence and never will. I agree there is a difference between the Save and your kill mill, breed mill Texas whitetail high fence farm.

That articulation centers on the animal breeding by itself and being able to escape a hunter. Others are better positioned to extrapolate on this articulation/distinction than I. They can if they desire.

I'll stand behind President Trump. With his skill in sorting out BS I think he could make things in the wild world better for all. I think we all know that there was a bunch of fleece being thrown about in many countries being less than honest on the conservation thru the hunting model. Make your choice to condemn him but in the long term I truly think he will lean toward what is truly honest in conservation with hunting dollars supporting same.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
I'll stand behind President Trump. With his skill in sorting out BS I think he could make things in the wild world better for all. I think we all know that there was a bunch of fleece being thrown about in many countries being less than honest on the conservation thru the hunting model. Make your choice to condemn him but in the long term I truly think he will lean toward what is truly honest in conservation with hunting dollars supporting same.

You honestly think he has a clue what this is all about? Did you read the quote from above? My 6th grader makes more compelling arguments. Trump is a ham-fisted knucklehead. I might give him one iota of credit if he showed any kind of nuanced understanding. He didn’t, he doesn’t, he won’t. If he truly understood anything about the subject, he wouldn’t talk as he does. “Stuffed elephant?” Really?

quote:

“Stuffed elephant?” Really?

He just stuffed elephant hunters and the elephants too

Hunters should demand to see where our dollars are truly being spent both locally and abroad which should should in all cases represent conservation thru hunting dollars then there would be no room for question.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
Hunters should demand to see where our dollars are truly being spent both locally and abroad which should should in all cases represent conservation thru hunting dollars then there would be no room for question.

Been there done that and now?

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
I'll stand behind President Trump. With his skill in sorting out BS I think he could make things in the wild world better for all. I think we all know that there was a bunch of fleece being thrown about in many countries being less than honest on the conservation thru the hunting model. Make your choice to condemn him but in the long term I truly think he will lean toward what is truly honest in conservation with hunting dollars supporting same.

You honestly think he has a clue what this is all about? Did you read the quote from above? My 6th grader makes more compelling arguments. Trump is a ham-fisted knucklehead. I might give him one iota of credit if he showed any kind of nuanced understanding. He didn’t, he doesn’t, he won’t. If he truly understood anything about the subject, he wouldn’t talk as he does. “Stuffed elephant?” Really?

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Without turning this into another senseless political pissing match over who is a better President, I'm not sure any of us have a comprehensive understanding of what Trump feels from a sound bite from an interview. The guy has a tendency of saying things to elicit a response - seems to be working here.

Anyhow, the real questions and clarification should be coming from Zinke about what the Administration is or isn't doing to combat corruption. He also should be working to allow legally harvested ivory to be imported. The harm has already been done and there is NO point in punishing hunters for something they 1. had no knowledge of and 2. had no control over.

Isn't this whole argument now about politics?

May be it wasn't, until Trump jumped on the bandwagon, trying to get brownie points with the left, who never supported him in the first place?

Saeed, focusing on childish attacks on Trump only continues to ignore the underlying realities and challenges facing wildlife conservation and sustainable hunting practices in Africa. Seems that's more fun than addressing the real problems.

Little wonder why we continue to lose our rights. Whatever...

What I find so funny about this whole deal is people are concerned about Trump, when the governments of the various African countries do not seem all that stable or corruption free.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Without turning this into another senseless political pissing match over who is a better President, I'm not sure any of us have a comprehensive understanding of what Trump feels from a sound bite from an interview. The guy has a tendency of saying things to elicit a response - seems to be working here.

Anyhow, the real questions and clarification should be coming from Zinke about what the Administration is or isn't doing to combat corruption. He also should be working to allow legally harvested ivory to be imported. The harm has already been done and there is NO point in punishing hunters for something they 1. had no knowledge of and 2. had no control over.

Isn't this whole argument now about politics?

May be it wasn't, until Trump jumped on the bandwagon, trying to get brownie points with the left, who never supported him in the first place?

Saeed, focusing on childish attacks on Trump only continues to ignore the underlying realities and challenges facing wildlife conservation and sustainable hunting practices in Africa. Seems that's more fun than addressing the real problems.

Little wonder why we continue to lose our rights. Whatever...

So you mean it is not his fault that he made the announcement, in such a bloody childish and irresponsible way as well?

OK, have it your way.

Elephants are the ultimate losers from the actions of this bloody idiot!

quote:

Elephants are the ultimate losers from the actions of this bloody idiot!

Why don't we look at the actual losers in this whole 'Menage Aux TWAT"!!!!

All African wildlife ultimately, as once the impetus to conserve the various species and maintain huntable populations is gone along with the $$$$ brought into the country by hunters, the natives and poachers will systimatically eliminate all the wildlife.

Hunters/Hunting will lose-are losing due to our Public Display of being unable to find common ground on such issues and resort to attacking each other.

The World loses di\ue to the loss of the various species and the loss of the Hunting Heritage of the Human Species.

Don't blame hunters for the misdeeds of your dumb politicians who for fear of losing face (votes) are all out to protect their sorry asses at our expense.

Do you honestly, deep down inside, believe otherwise?

Damn it he just sold his own sons out and fed them to the hyenas!

I blaming hunters for being incapable for finding common ground on which to stand to defend hunting.

For the umteenth time, I have made it quite clear in my opinion/judgement, USF&S has No Business being involved in the impotrtation of LEGALLY TAKEN TROPHIES from foriegn countries.

At the most USF&WS should only be involved in making sure the paperwork from the country where the animal was killed is in order.

I really hope that is easy enough to comprehend!

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
Don't blame hunters for the misdeeds of your dumb politicians who for fear of losing face (votes) are all out to protect their sorry asses at our expense.

Do you honestly, deep down inside, believe otherwise?

You hit the nail on the head!

quote:

Damn it he just sold his own sons out and fed them to the hyenas!

I voted against Clinton and voted for the only choice I had that I felt would keep her out of office, nothing more.

I feel quite sure that I am not the only person that was in that boat, and feel that I will not be the only person that may end up regretting that choice but that is somehing time will only determine.

quote:

The only time we have lost is when we have given up. I have not given up. I have no plans to anytime soon.

I think that we all forget one simple thing. There are things that are so incredibly obvious to us that others do not get at all.

This IS the issue!!!!!!

Divided we fall.

quote:

Divided we fall.

I think we all understand that concept quite well.

The problem that seems to be impossible to get around is uniting hunters in the first place.

As long as we are incapable of setting aside personal differences concerning our personal views about hunting we will never be united.

As it has said above, the government fees paid for elephant and lion are de mínimas. Why haven’t the hunting organizations broken that down?

If I’m wrong, please let me know.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Damn it he just sold his own sons out and fed them to the hyenas!

I voted against Clinton and voted for the only choice I had that I felt would keep her out of office, nothing more.

I feel quite sure that I am not the only person that was in that boat, and feel that I will not be the only person that may end up regretting that choice but that is somehing time will only determine.

I agree with the first statement but I will never regret not voting for HRC!

If I remember correctly the ban was initiated because of the science behind the numbers used for the elephant population in Tanzania and Zimbabwe.

It had nothing to do with monies or where trophy fee's go as some trumpkin apologists would like people to believe.
Zimbabwe from what I understand addressed the concerns presented by the USFWS that the numbers were correct and sport hunting did not effect the health of the population.

The fact that anyone believed a word that foul mouthed, conceited, delusional cheetio said defies common logic. That he is throwing hunters under the bridge doesn't surprise me at all.

Trump research facts behind something... seriously you jest. He has the attention span of 5 year old and unless its on TV or twitter it won't make it to his eyes. Doing an interview with Piers Morgan....

Guy is a clown and embarrASSment

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
I'll stand behind President Trump. With his skill in sorting out BS I think he could make things in the wild world better for all. I think we all know that there was a bunch of fleece being thrown about in many countries being less than honest on the conservation thru the hunting model. Make your choice to condemn him but in the long term I truly think he will lean toward what is truly honest in conservation with hunting dollars supporting same.

Regardless of where the money goes, the fact remains that the countries that have regulated sport hunting of elephants have strong elephant populations outside their national parks. On the other hand, countries that don't allow sport hunting have seen their elephant populations plummet outside their national parks.

Trump is dead wrong on this and he is only being so loud-mouthed about it for political gain.

Interesting points. A lot of agreement and a lot of division. The sad truth is your average Bubba Redneck Hunter could care less about anything outside of his interests and beliefs. Most belong to no conservation groups (what will it do for me?) and will not join the NRA (what will it do for me?). The number of licenses and guns sold VS members of these organizations support that. The biggest division starts there. The next division are many of the specialty gentleman hunting clubs. Some of the most anti gun, anti hunting rhetoric I have ever heard has been at bird plantations.

I have said before, you are on the team or off the team. Part of being on the team means you support the team and pass the ball to the person most likely to score. High five - Rebel yelling - in your face Bubba can no better carry a positive hunting and conservation image or message than the rich, fat, white man (or in shape professional) posing with his trophy in an unaccepted or distasteful manner or location. We can do a better job of policing ourselves. There is nothing wrong with being a quiet professional.

When it comes to Africa, why don't we let the Africans that actually live in Africa that are active in hunting and conservation tell us outsiders, especially the US, how we can best help. Wouldn't it be better if DSC, SCI and other groups and voices used and supported the messages coming from those that have the most to lose?

Conservation messages from Africa are much more credible than a conservation message from outsiders. Even the crew of 'Trophy" changed their opinions when they heard and saw the real story.

Just my opinion.

Safe travels and safe hunting