dogcat,

You have always made your opinion heard regarding high fenced hunting. If you don't want to hunt African game in Texas, don't. I'm not forcing you to. But, don't sit here and criticize everybody who has ever hunted an African animal in Texas by saying:

quote:

That is crap and no amount of selling can convince me that hunting buff or bongo or whatever in Texas even remotely resembles hunting.

This statement only shows your ignorance of the subject. Obviously, you have never hunted African game in Texas. I HAVE hunted an Eland in Texas. As I stated above, it took 6 FULL days of hunting to get a shot at a good mature bull. I'm confused. Do you think I spent the first 5 1/2 days sitting back at camp playing with myself and then just drove out and shot it at the end of the 6th day? NO, we hunted hard for 6 (repeat, 6) days. I would be willing to bet that most (not all, but most) people don't hunt 6 full days for an Eland in Africa.

G L Krause & dogcat,

I don't go around saying, "Anybody who doesn't drive a Dodge truck is a dumbass!" Just because I like Dodge doesn't mean you can't drive a Chevy if you want. Nobody is forcing you to drive a Dodge, so don't criticize people who do. I guess we should all listen to you two because y'all have SO MUCH experience on the subject (hunting African game in Texas), right?........I didn't think so. So, why don't you just keep your overly opinionated and ignorant criticisms to yourself. Thank you.

It took me 4 days to find my keys.

To each his own.

But let's face it, in this day and age big game has no chance for long term viability unless there is some commercial interest keeping it around. Look at the last 100 years of hunting in Africa. From a continent teaming with large game with hunting allowed virtually everywhere to a much lower population of game animals competing for land with farmers and ranchers.

Who would have predicted, even 50 years ago, that Kenya of all places would have a hunting ban in place going on 40 years now. And we see how well hunting bans work. With no hunters paying the freight, the wild game in erstwhile protected parks and reserves is being slowly consumed for food, horn and hides.

Tigers and leopards in India, Pakistan and other areas of asia is now down to almost nothing. If it were not for zoos (which charge admission and thus commercialize animals), inbreeding among the remaining few animals in some places would kill off the species.

Who knows what Africa is going to be like even 5 years from now. And all you need on top of everything else is another rinderpest-type epidemic.

Having an operation in places like Texas has several benefits. One, it sets up competition, which in the long term tends to keep the price of a safari in check. Two, it provides a resource for breeding stock and a more diverse gene pool. And three, it sets up a scheme for commercial viability, which promotes continuation of the species.

Like it or not, we have all manner of non native species thriving in the US and elsewhere. Gemsbuck in New Mexico. Wild boar across the Southern US.

We also have many native species that were extinct in areas before reintroduction. American Bison. Red Wolves in the Carolinas. Elk herds in the Northeast.

Do we round up all non native species introduces here and all native species reintroduced and get rid of them?

My personal preference is to hunt African game in Africa. But not everyone shares that preference. But those that choose to hunt game like cape buffalo in Texas do share a common bond with us all - they like to hunt. With inteerest in hunting of any sort on the wane in this country, it seems to me that anything that keeps the passion alive in a fair chase sense should not be discouraged. Expand the opportunities and interest.

Jim Manion, very well said!! How eloquent - and from a Texan no less!

Re: Red Wolves, I thought they were extinct. I hope you're right on that. I'll have to do some research.

If these Buffs just provide a gene pool that is free of Hoof and Mouth, it will eventually provide the source of keeping the species alive.

Eland Slayer, please reread my post. I never called anyone a "dumbass" or anything else for that matter. I was just pleading with the hunting community to set some boundaries and not let this thing get out of hand. Yes, I'm sure that your Eland was tough to hunt and is a worthy trophy. I wouldn't say otherwise. But that doesn't mean that every other animal on the face of the earth should be brought to the U.S. and hunted. Ask yourself in all honesty, do you really believe that small herds of Buffalo running around even the largest Texas ranch is going to come close to the challenge of an African Buffalo hunt? BTW, you questioned our experience level in your post. I have hunted both Africa (Zambia) and Texas numerous times. But even if I hadn't, you don't have to be a seasoned African hunter to have the opinion expressed here about the future of our sport.

Look, if the consensus seems to be that we as hunters want to create Africa here in the States, so be it. Let's just be careful what we wish for...

quote:

Jim Manion

,

Excellent discussion of where big game hunting on our planet is headed whether or not we like it.

$bob$

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter Formerly Known As Texas Hunter:
Jim Manion, very well said!! How eloquent - and from a Texan no less!

Re: Red Wolves, I thought they were extinct. I hope you're right on that. I'll have to do some research.

What Jim said..

red wolves were reintroduced during the 70s and 80s by UT memphis. Of the samples recovered, they are genetically indisingishable from coyotes.

I am from west memphis, grew up there part of this time, and followed that pretty closely

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter Formerly Known As Texas Hunter:
Jim Manion, very well said!! How eloquent - and from a Texan no less!

Re: Red Wolves, I thought they were extinct. I hope you're right on that. I'll have to do some research.

Hunter I agree with everything Jim has to say on this subject, and like him, I prefere to hunt in Africa,no matter the species! However in regard to the red wolf, this is an exercise in futility! The red wolf is a natural extinction takeing place, and had nothing to do with over shooting, traping, or poisoning! The red wolf redily crosses with coyotes, and the offspring can only be identified by DNA, or to watch the threat responce of the animal. The DNA of true red wolves is almost non existant, and what is happening is a NEW animal is evolveing by natural process. The last two pure red wolves, I'm aware of are in a pen at Fossel Rim game park at Glen Rose, Texas. The fact is, even if we had pure reds to release into the wild, they would not re-introduce, but would simply continue the fall from the sceene, by crossing with coyote population! They are a lost cause, by natural selection!

The Cheeta is almost as bad off as the red wolf, in that the cheeta's gene pool is stagnant, world wide. Tests have shown that the cheetas all have the same genes, and there is no way the reverse a stagnant gene pool, so he is doomed as well, also by natural selection, unless, like the red wolve he can find another cat he can cross with to make a new gene pool, and evolve into a new animal.

The fact is that the game rances all over the world are the last pools for restocking of species that have been depleted by what ever cause. With the world we live in today, travel is getting more dangerous than the animals we hunt, at least for Americans, and to top that off the animals, not hunted, that compete dirrectly with human populations for space, and food supply, will be removed and replaced with something of value to those people. Hunting of game any place assigns a dollar value to the animals, to folks in the same habitat as the animal, because hunting him supplies free food, and employment to the locals. The fact that the animals in Texas are valuable does the same thing, only in a more modern economic way. This insures the continued existance of any animal by assigning a dollar value, by makeing it profitable to the continued breeding of that species, and maintaining a habatat for him. However, the animal must pay his own way, or he has no value, and will be replaced with something that does!

I simply don't know where the idea came from that an animal that was not origenally on a continent, is some how a barn yard animal, simply because he is privately owned by someone! This is rediculous! A cape Buffalo, in the habitat offered by the area these are to be stocked, will be just as dangerous as they are in any bush in the world, and a game fence has absolutely nothing to do with that fact.

The continued "WILD" in any dangerous animals is brought to us every year, by some idiot who climbs in the cage with them, and gets to be a meal for the animal. The dangerous animal becomes more dangerous the more he is around people, because he looses what little fear of man, he has in a hunting area, with less contact with people!

I agree that the "exotics" of the land in Africa is not there, when hunting an animal like the cape buffalo, in Texas. However, many folks do not have the time to go to Africa,or for other reason cannot go there. In that case if a person has enough money, he can, at least, get some of the mistique of hunting buffalo! In Texas. I assure you it isn't money, or the lack of that induces folks to hunt in Texas, because it cost more to hunt a cape buffalo in Texas, than it would to go to Zimbabwe to do the same thing.

I say, rather than join the
antis in their critisism, get behind anything that will bring new hunters into the fold. Many young folks get their first taste of really BIG game on one of these ranchs, and go on to travel to Africa many times, when they are older! Nobody could aford to take many African animals on one of these rances, so a trip to Africa is a natural responce to this exposure!

MacD37, I agree with a great deal of what you have said and I am in no way saying the industry should be regulated or that anything should be outlawed. I am just appealing to the individual heart of each hunter to not always take the easy way out, for their sakes more than anyone elses. From a personal view, I waited since I was a kid (30 years) to get to Africa and hunt Buffalo as well as other African species. It was everything I had hoped for and more, as most posters here that have gone will confirm. I cannot think of a greater tragedy personally than if I had been able to hunt Texas a few times in those 30 years and knocked out most of my trophy list. That's just my personal feeling and isn't shared by everyone I know, but I suspect anyone, given the choice, would rather have the African memories instead.

Not to get off the subject and this is sure to ruffle a few feathers here, but I really feel this goes double for kids. I really feel a kid is cheated out of the dream by being allowed to take large/exotic game too soon and before they have some experience under their belt. It disturbs me to see the videos where some 10 year old is allowed to shoot a 400 class elk and he can barely hold up the rifle, much less appreciate the magnitude of what he/she has just done. Now before everyone that has taken their kids on a big game hunt attacks me, I'm not saying that it should be banned, just that we might be robbing our youth of the anticipation we have all enjoyed by waiting.

To have a ranch like that is my ultimate dream. I doubt I will ever reach it short of winning the Power Ball, but if I did I would start shopping for ground and game to stock it with.
Owning a ranch like that in Texas is a much better investment than owning a ranch in Africa and parts of the climate, terrain and topography that fine state are indistinquishable from parts of Africa I have visited. Therefore, it would not be like hunting cape buffalo in Kansas. Good for the owner and I hope his plan is successful.

I doubt I would ever hunt a ranch like that for buffalo just as I would be reluctant to do so on a game ranch in Africa. Dangerous game should be hunted in areas with only natural boundaries. However, I would encourage anyone who wanted to hunt cape buffalo in Texas to do so, just as folks who want to hunt buffalo at Humani and in the Save Conservancy should do so.

Perry

I was born and raised in Marfa, Texas and have been horseback on every inch of that ranch. It is one tough, rocky, high unforgiving country. Chinati Peak is one of the highest peaks in that country..I also have ranched in that area and what I believe will happen with those Cape Buffalo is they will eat all the easy graze, then start going up towards the top and it get rocky and hard up there. Those heavy cattle will get tender footed in a hurry, won't be able to feed and will lay down and die, just like cattle that are brought in to that country from other parts of the country. Only light weight Corrente type steers can get around up there. It is failure in progress unless they contain them in a very small area of of what at one time was called the lower pasture, It is about/maybe 4000 acres on the lower part, but I don't think they won't stay there behind a 4 stran barbwire fence. Natural barrier??, well perhaps but only on one side and thats debatable, as I have ridden a horse/mule off that side for what its worth. Just my opine. The country is very simulair to the area of high mountains you travel through going from Joberg to the old Transvaal.

So are we going to have to start importing DG licensed PH's as well?

Brian

The way Africa is going today, These Texas Game Ranchers just may be the salvation of many of the African species, that should be food for thought for some of the purist on this board.

I have no opinnion either way, I have hunted on both open range and on a few fenced ranches in both the USA and RSA.

Most plainsgame hunts in RSA and many in Zimbabwe are high fenced, but it seems to be OK in RSA and taboo in the USA, something about native animals fenced are passible. I suppose its all in your point of view much like canned Lion hunting. Although I won't book them, I am for canned Lions in RSA, it maintains the species that is poorly managed by government and keeps one hell of a lot of pressure off the wild Lions.

There is a place in this world for everyone, if everyone just keeps an open mind. If someone wants to hunt Eland, Kudu, whatever under high fence in Texas, The same in RSA, and add those huge elk in New Zealand, then let them have at it, if you don't like this sort of hunt, then the game fields of Tanzania, Mozambique, Botswana are for you.

Well said Ray.

Ray since your return it seems you have toned down the rhetoric. I never agreeded with you 100% of the time in the past,though I always respected your knowledge on most subjects in Africa.
Good to see you posting here once again. Likewise it's nice to see that some of the rift raft, shit pot stiring posters whom migrated to other boards are banned an outta here.

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is all about, if people want to hunt Cape buffalo in Texas then more power to them. I've never hunted Africa but will one day and for me, hunting Cape buffalo is part of the lure to visiting Africa. What I want to experience is the whole African safari in Africa, not in Texas. If I want to shoot a cape buff for meat then maybe I'd go to Texas to do that but to hunt them on their terms, i'd have to go to Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
dogcat,

You have always made your opinion heard regarding high fenced hunting. If you don't want to hunt African game in Texas, don't. I'm not forcing you to. But, don't sit here and criticize everybody who has ever hunted an African animal in Texas by saying:

quote:

That is crap and no amount of selling can convince me that hunting buff or bongo or whatever in Texas even remotely resembles hunting.

This statement only shows your ignorance of the subject. Obviously, you have NEVER hunted African game in Texas. I HAVE hunted an Eland in Texas. As I stated above, it took 6 FULL days of hunting to get a shot at a good mature bull. I'm confused. Do you think I spent the first 5 1/2 days sitting back at camp playing with myself and then just drove out and shot it at the end of the 6th day? NO, we hunted hard for 6 (repeat, 6) days. I would be willing to bet that most (not all, but most) people don't hunt 6 full days for an Eland in Africa.

G L Krause & dogcat,

I don't go around saying, "Anybody who doesn't drive a Dodge truck is a dumbass!" Just because I like Dodge doesn't mean you can't drive a Chevy if you want. Nobody is forcing you to drive a Dodge, so don't criticize people who do. I guess we should all listen to you two because y'all have SO MUCH experience on the subject, right?........I didn't think so. So, why don't you just keep your overly opinionated and ignorant criticisms to yourself. Thank you.

Eland Slayer,
Of course I have made my opinion known on the subject. I have hunted behind a high fence and have shot African animals behind high fence in Texas, not far from your stomping grounds. As a fact, I have hunting high fenced areas near the King Ranch, near Brady and just outside of Kerrville. After experiencing it and then hunting in Africa, I make my statement and stand behind it. I do not consider the animals I have shot in Texas behind a high fence to be trophies as they are not, in my opinion.

Further, I do not consider hunting deer from a box blind over a feeder to be hunting. I have done that about 15 times as well. I find it boring and not hunting.

As far as spending 6 days hunting eland on a high fenced game ranch - fine by me. Sounds like there were very few eland for you to hunt. Your use of the meat is fine. To add to your implication in your post that "you used all of the meat" - great, as well if should be. But in Africa, not only the meat is consumed, but every part of the eland is used. I doubt that the guts and bones were used on African animals shot in Texas.

I do not suggest you did not "hunt" your eland. I do not know your circumstances other than you are a college kid and like to hunt. When I was in college, I hunted every chance I got and did not pay much attention to methods, I just wanted to hunt and shoot.

Being older now and having hunted in Africa and other places in a fair chase, free range scenario, I much prefer free range, even with the increased lack of success.

I have hunted eland in Africa in Zimbabwe. I was unsuccessful but did see several eland. We tracked them and had a ball hunting them. We hunted them for 11 days along with other critters. My son was successful but I was not.

I understand from your posts that you are headed to Namibia to hunt. When you get back, I would be interested in reading your hunting report and how the experience compares to hunting a high fenced place in Texas. I expect that the experience will change your perspective as it did mine.

Also, I do not recall criticizing you. I said that hunting buff or bongo in Texas does not resemble hunting - I stand by that statement. I do not recall criticizing you for shooting your eland. My comment was directed at this thread which was about cape buffalo hunting in Texas.

The game ranches in Texas provide a service for people that do not want to or cannot travel to the home turf of the animal they want to shoot. There is no way that bongo or buff in Texas can be hunted in a manner remotely similar to hunting them on their turf in Africa.

Finally, when someone states an opinion different from yours, you may want to re-think the point of the thread and the comment - try not to take this personally as my comments and those of others on this board are usually not directed at you.

Enjoy your trip to Namibia, you will be changed by the experience.

dogcat,

Actually, the place I hunted my Eland probably had the largest herd of Eland in Texas (at the time). The property was 1,000 acres and had approximately 125-150 Eland on it. That sounds like it should be easy, but it most definitely wasn't. There were 2 main herds with 50-60 Eland in each of them. There were also several bachelor herds and then there were single bulls. I shot my bull out of a bachelor group. He was old and had a limp. When we skinned him, we found the source of the limp. Somebody had driven by on the county road and shot him in the shoulder with a .22! They have since reduced the herd to 50-60 animals.

Anyways, the reason I took offense is because you said "buff or bongo or WHATEVER". I took "whatever" to mean any other African animal as well. I will definitely agree with you that Bongo cannot be hunted in Texas in any way resembling the way they are hunted in Africa. However, I think Buffalo can. On a place large enough with the right habitat, I imagine it would be very similar.

Well, maybe this guy will get the place running a good herd of buffalo and in 20 years, we can see if it's the same or not.

dogcat, that was a very well thought out post, and was refreshingly void of name calling, something that is not always the case on the internet! I congratulate you on your manners.

Many of the things you have said, I agree with, but not all! That is what makes a discussion, differing opinion on any subject. Certainly it is not going to be the same as hunting Buffalo in Africa, and as far as I'm aware nobody here said it would.

That is not the point here, IMO, the point is is it really fair chasse hunting? If done properly, it is, and I agree, if done incorrectly it is certainly not! However, the country where the hunt takes place has nothing to do with a hunt being fair chasse, but it is the quality of the way it is done. Certainly, there are those who want to ride around in a bakki, and shoot animals from the comfort of the passenger seat, and if the owner allows that, then you are 100% correct, it is not fair chasse, and has no resemblence to what I call hunting, no matter the target! You know, that this is the case in many of the hunting areas of Africa as well, and the safari opperator is going to let the client hunt the way he wants, and if that is shooting from the car, then that is what will happen, in Africa. Lots of African hunters don't like to admit that, but you and I both know it is true!

The hunter himself, has to decide what is ethical when he sets out to hunt any animal, regardless of where the speices originated, or where he is hunting it.

Like the DRSS shoots at the same ranch where ES hunted his eland, are always undertaken on foot, and while useing iron sighted double rifles. ES is right, that ranch has everything from river bottom swamp, to yopon holly so thick you have to crawl on your hands and knees to get through bush, that an eland can run through a full tilt! As far as there not being many eland on that ranch, you are sadly mistaken, there are so many, thet the cows need culling badly. The ranch is 16,000 acres, with high fence around about 1000 acres, of the ranch, bordered on one side by a deep lake, and the lay of the land is very hilly, and as previously stated cover is as thick as anything I've ever seen in Africa, with creek bottoms, and briar, the holly 15 feet deep, and so thick you can't get throuh it in many places. Top that with plenty of rattle snakes in that thick stuff,and you have more to worry about than getting a sun burn. Because many types of animals are in evidence there, one gets almost the same sittuation as when walking around in the bush of Zambia, Zimbabwe, or botswana. On this ranch we have the run of the ranch, to hunt Wild boar, of almost pure Europien Boar, because no fence in the world can hold a hog for long, and he moves in and out of the high fence, at will. So since we hunt mostly hogs there, we hunt 16,000 acres on foot, with our big bore double rifles, an not sitting in the tree over a feeder! IMO, any animal that is hard hunted, no matter where he should live, and as long as he has every oppertunity to escape you, and is not hand fed, but hunted regularly, so he gets the idea very quickly, that a man with a rifle is bad news, and he needs to change zip codes, if won, is fair chasse, and the animal IS a trophy, because it was earned, ethiclly.

On that vain, let me say right here, I find that everyone who downs hunting because of a fence, that I've taked to, I find they all have a Wyoming Prong horn on their wall or in a record book, as a fair chasse won trophy. In New Mexico, Wyoming, and Montana, even on BLM land all the antilope are hunted on sheep ranches. Sheep ranches are fenced with sheep wire fence. Anyone who knows anything about prong horn, knows that he will run himself to death along a fence, but will not jump a 4 ft sheep wire fence. So the hypocrite with a 18" prong horn on his wall, is proud as punch of it, but down grades anyone who hunts an Eland for five or six days to get a good bull, in a high fence ranch. The prong horn is just as fenced in as the eland, and in his habitat, is easier to hunt, because you can see him for miles, where the Eland if hunted, will keep a lot of bush between him and you.

I beleive people who paint all game ranches with the same brush are not only wrong, but are close minded as well! 98% of Texas is private property, and if you hunt anything in this state you are going to have to hunt on a ranch, and the includes all animals, both native, and introduced. You are correct, much of the so-called hunting in the USA, not just Texas is sitting in a tree stand, over a bean field or a feeder. The difference is in most of the east, the plots of land are rarely over 100 acres, while the 4k rance, where we hunted in jan is 116,000 acres with only 3000 acres under high fence, and the hundreds of deer in the high fence area are as wild as they are on the rest of the ranch with five wire cattle fence. The fence is there to keep the wild boar out,if taht is possible, because they eat all the fawns of the axis deer, and no hog hunting is allowed in there, because there aren't any.

Like you Hunting Cape Buffalo, or Asian Buffalo at Marfa, TX is not my idea of the best buffalo hunting I've ever done, but at the age of 70 yrs, and on a fixed income, it may be the only way in future, or simply hang it up, and shoot my big bore double rifles at paper, or mule deer in New Mexico! Still I don't believe it is as simple as you seem to think, the place, or a fence is not all that is involved in fair chasse hunting.

Eland Slayer and Mac,
I do not wish to offend with my opinions and do not look down on you or anyone else for hunting the way they chose to do it. I came to my own "wake up" on high fence hunting when my 12 year old son said - "Dad, that was not much fun. The red deer never had a chance." - just after he shot a red deer on a game ranch near Kerrville. The operation was legit, not over grazed or too crowded. He just did not "feel" right about it. I had to do a great deal of introspection that day and made the decision to hunt in the manner that I feel is right.

Wendell Reich, a frequent poster on this board, has a high fence operation. I respect Wendell and his ethics. I know that he runs it as well as anyone. So, please do not think I am judging you about this. I understand your point of view as I have hunted high fences before.

I sometimes come across as "holier than thou". That is a fault of mine and I apologize to you all as I know I can sound like I know it all. I do not and do not judge you.

Thanks for your posts and I respect what you say.

I think this has been worn thin, and the conclusion is,......................

It has boiled down to a three way draw!
33 1/3% X 33 1/3% x 33 1/3% = 100% disagreement!

1/3rd who condemns all ranch hunting, 1/3rd who tollerates introduced game without any type of fence, and 1/3rd who accepts them for what they are, and let's folks hunt how they want, without condemnation!

Looks like a cross section of the hunting community, and all are right to some degree!

Of course, my view is the only one that is 100% correct!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I think this has been worn thin, and the conclusion is,......................

It has boiled down to a three way draw!
33 1/3% X 33 1/3% x 33 1/3% = 100% disagreement!

1/3rd who condemns all ranch hunting, 1/3rd who tollerates introduced game without any type of fence, and 1/3rd who accepts them for what they are, and let's folks hunt how they want, without condemnation!

Looks like a cross section of the hunting community, and all are right to some degree!

Of course, my view is the only one that is 100% correct!

Guys its simple we should hunt animals in their natural habitat and buffalo belongs in africa .

The amount of game in south africa is more than double it was 25 years ago and species that you could not hunt then is back on our hunting lists like ex. Sable and Roan al because of sound breeding projects.

last question who has followed a wounded buff on 30 000 acres its a night mare

Never one who rains on others parades, I feel Ray and others that are for high fence "ethical" hunting for dangerous game species are on the right track. Never done it and it wouldn't appeal to me personally, as I have hunted Africa and Aussie land several times. But think 50 years from now. Will the african countries kill off all the DG species for profit?---Elephant in Kenya, Elephant and Rhino in Selous--Tanzania, Black Rhino in Zimbabwe, as examples. The water buffalo and banteng are huntable in Australia, but not in their native land as an example. So, after a lot of thought, even canned lion hunting in SA would get my vote. Even these coifurred lion which makes mine look like a hard luck lion can be made into an ethical" hunt and preserve the species, IMO, something like the white rhino program in south africa. The problem is what is ethical, but that can be worked out, but I would insist on a separate record book by SCI.

This type of lion hunting has no appeal for me either, but remember what the problem is---ie, what will be left in fifty years????

Dak