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I can't speak for sure about Zambia but in Tanzania...that would be an incorrect assumption...just count the quota issued there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Not sure of the quota? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Speaking of quota, isnt that the real problem then? Shouldnt the quantity be based on sustainable hunting numbers regardless of the age class you choose to shoot? We all know aging "on the hoof" is a best guess and varies between regions. We see this in Texas with the whitetail deer. It even varies year-to-year depending on rainfall and month-to-month depending on pre or post rut. I shot a deer during the drought that we thought was 4 1/2 and ended up being 7 1/2, but worn down from lack of vegetation and a hard rut. It seems like if the goal is to have sustainable hunting, that should start at the quota level? I can only assume this has been discussed before. | |||
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Is it a legal lion are you license to shoot a lion. If you meet the requirement not only would I shoot him I shoot him twice or more. One has to realize is that the anti lion hunting organizations or people . Really don't care if the lion is 1 ,5 ,10 female male, or cub is shot. THEY WANT TO DO AWAY WITH HUNTING ANY HUNTING. They will any excuse good bad or other wise to stop it. It doesn't matter if it has good scientific or bad scientific reason. Or it the reasons are down right lies. THEY WANT TO STOP HUNTING PERIOD. | |||
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I can't speak for sure about Zambia but in Tanzania...that would be an incorrect assumption...just count the quota issued there.[/QUOTE] Lane/Aaron: What is the current Lion quota for Tanzania ? How many lions were taken last year and how many of those met with the 6 year requirement? Whatever the quota is, it cannot realistically meet/conform to the 6+ year criteria - and you both know it.  | |||
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I am not sure of the quota in tanzania but I shot a lion there last year and have been told that about 50 were taken. I was also told a few years aga it was more like 150. I was also told that they had no flagrant young lions shot last year but some are in the 5 year old category.all in all much better management was exercised but still impossible to be sure if the lion is 5 or 6. As I said I was told those numbers they may not be accurate but it was from a reliable source. | |||
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Lane/Aaron: What is the current Lion quota for Tanzania ? How many lions were taken last year and how many of those met with the 6 year requirement? Whatever the quota is, it cannot realistically meet/conform to the 6+ year criteria - and you both know it. [/QUOTE]Bwanamich can chime here as I am sure he knows those answers for sure but...I beleive the allocated quota in TZ is in excess of 250 lion country wide. As Gerry stated...last year they shot 50 lion and they won't release the aging data. They year before I beleive 80. The year before that 150 and the year before that 250. So that is my point fujo...you can't rely (as Fairgame eluded to) on the fact that you got quota so there must be plenty to shoot...cause atleast in TZ...the lion quota is over allocated. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Bwanamich can chime here as I am sure he knows those answers for sure but...I beleive the allocated quota in TZ is in excess of 250 lion country wide. As Gerry stated...last year they shot 50 lion and they won't release the aging data. They year before I beleive 80. The year before that 150 and the year before that 250. So that is my point fujo...you can't rely (as Fairgame eluded to) on the fact that you got quota so there must be plenty to shoot...cause atleast in TZ...the lion quota is over allocated.[/QUOTE] I don't have "a dog in this fight" as I will never be able to afford it. BUT if these harvest trends are accurate it bodes well for the future. It looks as though safari operators in TZ are doing their best to adhere to the new "6 year old" policy. | |||
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I don't have "a dog in this fight" as I will never be able to afford it. BUT if these harvest trends are accurate it bodes well for the future. It looks as though safari operators in TZ are doing their best to adhere to the new "6 year old" policy.[/QUOTE] Safari2, Sir they are accurate and you are 100% correct...the TZ hunting community has done a terrific job as a whole. That was one of the main points that Aaron and I were trying to impress upon USF&W. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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You two could not be more WRONG, but please tell me all about Amber's lion hunt - of which, you were not present at?????  Chris Trent and I both, sat in the truck, at the bait, no more than 15 yards from her lion - for OVER 20 Minutes!!!!! A full hour before we shot the lion!!! We looked long and hard at him, conversed with eachother about all the factors, and both agreed, he was a legal lion!!!! Ya boys, the camera does lie! Do you not think its perhaps edited down/footage cut out for time constraints, etc???? Just cause you didn't see all that, doesn't mean it didn't happen??? But you both know what they say about assumptions - they are the mother of all f**kups!!!! And you two just made one!!!!!!! | |||
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Really? I thought getting in a hurry and blowing a hole in a lion you haven't taken the time to learn something about was the mother of all f**kups? Being that he may have had a whole pride napping in the bushes.
Seriously? 20 whole minutes? Does the other member of the LCTF, Jolouburn know about this? You guys are truly amazing. | |||
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Brad, Did your Dad not wear a belt when you grew up??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Oh ya, the other guy that wasn't there either - but knows everything!!! Oh but Brad if you were there, you would have known that the bait truck guys (one apprentice, and two regular hunters/trackers) had been watching the same exact lion at the bait, for the two previous days. Always alone at the bait, and a lion that Chris (TZ - PH in this same area for 15 years) and I both, felt was definitely past his prime! But please Brad, don't let any of that stop you from telling us all that you know about the hunt, the circumstances, the lion's age, and all the wrong we did? You're right - you are truly amazing. I only wish I had the ability to KNOW facts, issues and circumstances of hunts, that took place without me present. So far, 3 of you know more than I about the facts - and for the life of me, I never once saw any of you there? That is amazing!  | |||
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Did anyone actually look at Amber's lion...it is a good example of a shootable lion...that minus a pride...would not take a lot of studying to know it is 6 or greater. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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All this talk about Lions and Lion hunting. Glad I never wanted to shoot a Lion, still don't/won't and really find it interesting about all the fussing and fuming. A lot of Lions that have been killed on the TV shows really turns me off, shooting sleeping Lion, poor shooting by the hunter (two, three or more shots while the cat is flopping around), etc. Some folks talk about watching a Lion for days on end at a bait, checking for this and that, seems that it gets to the point is this "really a hunt"? If it floats your boat to shoot a big ole puddy cat under a lot of the conditions as seen on TV, go for it. Just not something that is of interest to me, actually a lot of it turns my stomach.  JMHO. Larry Sellers SCI (International) Life Member | |||
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I assume this is some reference about corporal punishment? You are a strange dude Lane.
Damn straight, I know nothing about this lion hunt other than what you said, and I take you at your word. I think you guys misunderstand me, I am not questioning the lions age or wether you should have shot him or not. Congratulations to you and the huntress, rather I am jaded because I have watched you and your partners rub other hunters and posters faces in the ground for years now second guessing theirs, their ph's and everyone else's decisions or thoughts. Holding them to a ridiculous standard that you have not even attempted to maintain yourself on your Moz hunt for 1 stinking day or your Tanz hunt for even 20 minutes. I do find it telling that when your hand is called on both these situations, you add to the story to make it appear you are maintaining some semblance of control. Or even better, everyone knows that you "know what you are doing". | |||
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I've not added anything to the story, that's not true! Got no reason to do so. You love taking things out of context, and putting them into the context that fits best for your story, you always have. In Moz, between me and two different Moz licensed PH's who started observing the lions/pics of the lions two whole days before I got there - we looked at over 100 trail cam pics, over a 4 day period, including the day I arrived (1 day before my hunt started, duh) the first day of my safari, and most of the 2nd day as well. Plus the lion/s were seen live on a couple of occasions too. All before we decided to shoot the lion! But thanks Brad for more in-accurate facts as you don't know em! In TZ, this lone lion was observed by the bait car for two days prior to Chris and I, deciding with a very up-close (15 yards) look for roughly 20 min (all of which is on FILM too) that he was what we defined as a shooter. Then we let him get up, and walk away, so we could observe his rear legs (coloration) and his features we could not see when he was lying down. Then, we conversed again for another 10 min - and decided we were certain he was a shooter. He went roughly 400 yards to the water, drank, and then came back to a shade tree - roughly 200 yards from the bait. Our opportunity to observe him, and knowing the info from the previous 2.5 days, led us to shoot him. Brad, I was miffed at a Zambian PH - 3 yrs ago, who shot a lion that was at most 2 yrs old! By the way - you know who sent me the initial pics of that lion, and said to me that something needed to be done about this sort of thing?? Ya, you do know him!!!! So, I mistakenly started a separate thread in regards to the young lion - of which we all know about, and since I apologized for doing so as well. It was a mistake, I make them on occasion - unlike some. Since then, I had a dis-agreement with R.Jolly a couple of years ago, but never made any of it public, and we worked it out amongst ourselves. Today, I get along with him just fine. I have not bashed anyone on AR since the initial thread on the young Zambian Lion - 3 yrs ago, and then I only bashed the PH for shooting it, not the client. It was the in-correct thing to do, and I have not done so since. I have never, not once, bashed anyone on their own hunt report, ever - for anything. You certainly have though!!!!! Never once did I bash MS, or any of the lion trophies he's taken - quite the contrary. Like him, own his stuff, talk to him, and think he's doing a great job of shooting mature lions, period! Disagreed with his age assessment of the one particular lion, so what?? People disagree all the time, doesn't mean they are bashing someone, not at all. I also agreed its a spectacular trophy regardless of exact age, as it definitely appears old enough to me, for what its worth?? I sincerely want what's best for the lion, I really do. Perhaps I have not done everything right, but its a whole hell of a lot more than you have, or ever will do for the lion Brad. So the continued insinuation that I am always bashing people, is simply false. Its nothing more than your way to continue to make yourself feel important, give you something to do, have someone to fight against, etc. Its a common trait of those who suffer from "Little Man Syndrome", as you most certainly do - we both know it. Maybe someday we can be friends again, as I thought we were in the past? Maybe not? But despite all that you do to bash me, and the LCTF, I will continue to do what I can for the lion. If in your book, I do it wrong, so be it Brad. I'm leaving town tomorrow morning for another hunt, so I'm done with all of these discussions. Maybe you should do the same Brad, all this stress is not good for any of us. Happy Hunting to you all!!!! | |||
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Brad, When I grew up the phrase corporal punishment had not been coined yet and dudes lived on the Southern California coast line. We only got ass-whippings (obviously as rude as you are something that was lacking in your up bringing) and I ain't no dude. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Aaron, thanks for making my point again..... sincerely, Jiminy Cricket 
Then, after the double standard had been pointed out....
And now.....
If you don't think you did anything wrong, why do you keep changing the story? I don't think you did anything wrong, but it is completely inconsistent with what you and your organization have preached and you know it, hence the evolution of your story.  | |||
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Bwanamich can chime here as I am sure he knows those answers for sure but...I beleive the allocated quota in TZ is in excess of 250 lion country wide. As Gerry stated...last year they shot 50 lion and they won't release the aging data. They year before I beleive 80. The year before that 150 and the year before that 250. So that is my point fujo...you can't rely (as Fairgame eluded to) on the fact that you got quota so there must be plenty to shoot...cause at least in TZ...the lion quota is over allocated.[/QUOTE] Lane: What you say is correct; in excess of 250 lions countrywide! Approximately 50 were taken; also correct. Of the 50 how many were really OLD specimen, how many just managed to make the grade and how may were "misjudged". Why the results of the aging tests are not being released contradicts the object of the exercise, wouldn't you think? I may have misunderstood you or you me, but I was implying that a quota 250 was not sustainable and should my opinion be worth anything, needs to be drastically reduced, in fact it should have been done years back! | |||
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Lane: What you say is correct; in excess of 250 lions countrywide! Approximately 50 were taken; also correct. Of the 50 how many were really OLD specimen, how many just managed to make the grade and how may were "misjudged". Why the results of the aging tests are not being released contradicts the object of the exercise, wouldn't you think? DEFINITELY I may have misunderstood you or you me, but I was implying that a quota 250 was not sustainable and should my opinion be worth anything, needs to be drastically reduced, in fact it should have been done years back![/QUOTE] Yes...I probably misunderstood. We are in agreement. However, there is an argument to leave quotas alone but be restrained to just shooting > 6's. But, the gvt should NOT require a 60% up front payment on lion quota with this rule. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Urrgh! This thread wears me out. It almost makes it more worthwhile to hunt a "canned" lion than hunt a "wild" lion. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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And that Andrew Baldry fella sounds more and more like a guy I'd hunt with. Lane and Aaron also. We all want the same. Cheers. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Well then Aaron I do apologise. The film gave no impression that the Amber's great Lion had been monitored. As Brad states the LCTF is trying to enforce ridged rules and standards that are simply difficult or impractical to implement in the field. What I do agree is that mature nomads should be fairgame and that pride males should generally be left alone. Then again I am not qualified to make that statement. Then again I feel that research on the impact on Lion hunting is also unproven. Might find in the future that we all got it wrong and we should have been taking out the 4 years olds and leaving the older Lions to do their stuff. Indeed confusion, conjecture and assumptions. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Lane:
Care to expand on your above statement? - First I've heard of such thing unless it happened between the last sunsets. | |||
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Fujo, Correct me if I am wrong. But, I was under the impression that block holders had to pay for 60% of all there quota allocated up front...before any was taken??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Good populations of Lion are more often than not common in well run hunting areas (eg Niassa, Mid Zambezi, Bubie Valley Conservancy's and Luangwa. Places where lion have taken a beating are in areas with high human populations and this is no fault of sport hunting, in fact Sport hunting has been proven to assist in Lion population growth and protection. | |||
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Aaron, Stop and listen to yourself for one second. If 3-4 days of observation including the backs of the legs and a satellite uplink are necessary to be reasonalby confident of shooting a proper lion; don't you think this is getting absurd? I am sure you are not advocating this as proper field technique, but who really wants that much scrutiny in anything they do. I can assure you if I ever choose to lay down another chunk of change and shoot another, it won't be posted here no matter how old. Unless Baldry says it's ok...  Jeff | |||
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Lane: The version that comes to mind is that the outfitter is obliged to make a down payment of $10,000 against quota utilization on each block registered to him. The outfitter is also under contractual obligation to guarantee a return of not less than 40% of the quota value on "key species" at the end of the season as has always been the rule. | |||
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With all of this carrying on and BS...everybody looses sight of 2 key issues. 1) Andrew at this time...does not have any lion to hunt...cause cat hunting is banned in Zambia. Lets first work on getting that undone. 2) As we speak...USF&W is contemplating whether or not lion trophies will EVER be allowed into the US again...and we just got a new Secretary of the Interior who the most liberal and GREENEST ever. So MY recommendations (coming from someone who has worked on all aspects of this thing for years now) would be to concentrate on the above first and then once those are fixed...focus on the things talked about here. I can assure you USF&W has a person dedicated to monitoring these discussions on this website...it would be nice to show some positivity on making some positve changes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Did I miss something and the USF&W banned the import of Lion trophies? If not, then perhaps you should reword your post?
I bet who ever that is is laughing there ass off. Perhaps you should get your fellow member to watch what he posts about his lion hunts. | |||
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Did I say they had banned import or contemplating it? Perhaps, you should re-read. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Back to the original picture on the thread; it sure looks like there is a small standing lion between the very visible Male and the other mature lion, presumed female. Head is towards the female and butt to Male. You can see the back line, rear legs and I think an eye and ear. Or I am seeing things but the lines and shapes method of spotting game in cover is what I have relied on for all of my life. Best regards on aging those live lion in the field to the specs of "is he 5 or 6" by something other than knowing which lion you are looking at and when he was born. In any case, if the PH says shoot...doubtful that I would not in fact shoot. Best, "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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note to self: if i ever hunt a lion( doubtful) DO NOT POST A REPORT/PICTURE UNLESS HE IS SO OLD HE WEARS DENTURES Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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You know guys...this last debate all started over a comment made by me over the MS lion. My comment went something like this: "nice lion, certainly a legal shooter, but realistically we should be aware that it is no where near 12. Personally, I think this is educational so that folks don't go to Africa thinking they have a realistic chance of taking a 12 year old lion in most places and to kind of get a feel for what the differences between a 6 and 12 are. But...it digressed from there. Now everyone wants to chime in saying dam...I'll never post a lion pic! I really don't get that. Would everyone prefer to live in a fantasy world? I am a realist...I enjoy learning and knowing the facts...maybe that's just me. I talked to Aaron on the phone a long time yesterday as he was driving to New Mexico to film a really unique hunt for most folks. Both of us wonder many times why we ever decided to work on this lion project or at least share anything we have learned over the last few years. Anyway...hope everyone has a good day! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, I am sure you don't need this right now, and especially from me, but there is an old saying that goes something like "The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions"! You and Aaron have made an effort, but not everyone is going to see things the same way as you all do. I applaud your efforts, but unfortunately, in real life, many folks simple do not or will not view things the same as you gentleman do. In the end however, humans will lose, because lions are going to lose. Many Thanks for your efforts.  Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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