quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
[QUOTE]


TGT is the only safari company that actually has a group studying lions on their concessions.
That is something we should all be proud of.

.

Hi Saeed

I would argue this comment that TGT is the only company that has a study group on Lions, we in the APNR have a full time study group on Lions Leopards Elephants Ground Hornbills and Wild Dogs,

Regards

JK

Lions are free ranging. Remember my Royal kafue project did not have any Lions before I moved in. Incidentally the one I took out last year was with two other brutes how had been recorded at a photographic lodge by Paula White some 60km away?

Are we now saying that we do not shoot a Lion that we have not seen in the concession before? If so then you have to give the client his money back because the chances of him shooting a full mane, 6 plus, black nose, battleship grey, sagging spine. worn down toothed Lion is extremely slim.

This sort of Lion hunting should carry a $100,000 trophy fee and a daily rate of a few hundred bucks a day.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
This photo disproves any tooth ageing theory and is a famous Lion that dominates .....

This males sharp and pointed teeth however would put him at 4 or 5? Note these Lions prey almost exclusively on the diminutive Puku which are endemic to this region.

Proof that the tooth theory is also a load of codswallop and cannot be relied upon either?

Makes sense! Buffalo bones tend to be a lot harder than Puku to gnaw on and a toll on the gnashers

Andrew to second your comment, we only hunt 1 lion a year and of the last 5 lions taken we had never seen 3 of them before the Safari,

We do however still carry on with our scientific studies to support our hunting as everything we do is scrutinised by the anti-hunters,

And I agree with your concept of small day rates and large Trophy Fees, that is how we run all our hunts,
Reg

JK

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Andrew to second your comment, we only hunt 1 lion a year and of the last 5 lions taken we had never seen 3 of them before the Safari,

We do however still carry on with our scientific studies to support our hunting as everything we do is scrutinised by the anti-hunters,

And I agree with your concept of small day rates and large Trophy Fees, that is how we run all our hunts,
Reg

JK

Great policy and you chaps are doing sterling work.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
This photo disproves any tooth ageing theory and is a famous Lion that dominates the Northern Busanga Plains of our Kafue region. The photo is a scanned copy courtesy of one time PH Francois Delby whose vast Lion hunting experience put the Lion at approximately 10 years old. Considering the depth of mane and the numerous years he had been photographed I would tend to agree

This males sharp and pointed teeth however would put him at 4 or 5? Note these Lions prey almost exclusively on the diminutive Puku which are endemic to this region.



Proof that the tooth theory is also a load of codswallop and cannot be relied upon either?

Andrew,
What a load of BS. You take one photo of a lion of speculative identity and of speculative age at best and use that as "proof"...dam...I have heard every excuse in the book now.

Your dog probably ate your homework on a regular basis as a kid too...didn't it??? Come on man,wake up and smell the coffee. Are you bound and determined for lion never to be open in Zambia again?

Sorry Lane it was the only pic I have of a Lion with it's mouth open. But I will agree that Lions with broken down or blunt canines indicate age

Note the ban on Lion, Leopard and TIGER hunting was the decision of one unqualified woman in Government.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
This photo disproves any tooth ageing theory and is a famous Lion that dominates the Northern Busanga Plains of our Kafue region. The photo is a scanned copy courtesy of one time PH Francois Delby whose vast Lion hunting experience put the Lion at approximately 10 years old. Considering the depth of mane and the numerous years he had been photographed I would tend to agree

This males sharp and pointed teeth however would put him at 4 or 5? Note these Lions prey almost exclusively on the diminutive Puku which are endemic to this region.



Proof that the tooth theory is also a load of codswallop and cannot be relied upon either?

Andrew,
What a load of BS. You take one photo of a lion of speculative identity and of speculative age at best and use that as "proof"...dam...I have heard every excuse in the book now.

Your dog probably ate your homework on a regular basis as a kid too...didn't it??? Come on man,wake up and smell the coffee. Are you bound and determined for lion never to be open in Zambia again?

Oh boy ..... did you forget to take your meds, lane?
Calm down man...

Passed up on this Brute as he is one of the pride Males, his day will come.....

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Sorry Lane it was the only pic I have of a Lion with it's mouth open. But I will agree that Lions with broken down or blunt canines indicate age

Note the ban on Lion, Leopard and TIGER hunting was the decision of one unqualified woman in Government.

I know how the ban came about. But...it is unlikely to be lifted without the likes of Dr. White providing scientific data that it should be lifted. People like Dr. White etc. totally disagree with the fact that the teeth don't change with age...to some extent in all lion. So...saying teeth wear data is "codswaddle" is BS...plain and simple.

P.S.
It is NOT only the sharpness of the canines...but the ridge on the posterior margin and just as importantly the health of the incisors which we can't see in your pic.

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
[QUOTE]


TGT is the only safari company that actually has a group studying lions on their concessions.
That is something we should all be proud of.

.

Hi Saeed

I would argue this comment that TGT is the only company that has a study group on Lions, we in the APNR have a full time study group on Lions Leopards Elephants Ground Hornbills and Wild Dogs,

Regards

JK

Sorry JK, I was unaware of what you are doing.

May be I should said only in Tanzania that TGT do their work.

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

Oh boy ..... did you forget to take your meds, lane?
Calm down man...

Caracal,
The lion issue is spiralling out of control at the moment. If you follow the politics of the US...you know that the Dept. of Interior (who rules the USF&W) is very "GREEN" (for lack of better terms) right now. If we thought Ken Salazar was bad...The NEW SI - Sally Jewel is worse. Publically she announced when taking office that she certainly hoped that there were no "doubters of GW" in the Dept of Interior.

With her as the leader of the USF&W...how do do think they are going to rule on up-listing the lion??? Then once that happens...what do you think the EU is going to do??? I would guess...probably follow suit.

So the strategy that the LCTF has embraced has been to ally with the best science available and at least take the 'scientific teeth' (no pun intended) away.

The best science available goes against what Andrew has stated about teeth...hence the comment I made.

quote:

It is NOT only the sharpness of the canines...but the ridge on the posterior margin and just as importantly the health of the incisors which we can't see in your pic.

Lane:

And the PH is supposed to be able to verify the ridge on the posterior margin while out in the field, let alone the health of the incisors ?

Give us a break - "science" has also proved dubious in its methods of establishing age through dental x-rays!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

It is NOT only the sharpness of the canines...but the ridge on the posterior margin and just as importantly the health of the incisors which we can't see in your pic.

Lane:

And the PH is supposed to be able to verify the ridge on the posterior margin while out in the field, let alone the health of the incisors ?

Give us a break - "science" has also proved dubious in its methods of establishing age through dental x-rays!

fujo,

I have never said the teeth should be evaluated ante-mortem. They are something to look at post-mortem to learn from. X-rays are useful to sort lion into 3 categories...<5, 5-6, 7 or >. They don't lie there. The hardest lion to sort are 5's from 6's.

Frankly, its actually SAD to see to the degree of which some here on AR have made the "conservation" efforts in favor of the lion - into a JOKE! Pathetic is probably a better word for it, IMO. Hunters are always telling the non-hunting public what stewards of wildlife we all are. Ya, read some here on AR - and its not a far cry to see why many of them just aren't buying it. I don't get it, but each to his own obviously. Coming together in a like minded effort for the LION would be much more productive - again, JMO.

The Lion is at a crucial tipping point in the future of Africa's wildlife, and African hunting in general. Lose this fight, and watch how fast others like the elephant, maybe the leopard will follow. But those who do nothing more than banter an un-educated/sarcastic/argumentative opinion around on AR - would know nothing about that. Only those who have spent hundreds of hours of their own time, effort and in some cases - money too, actually have an educated and experienced opinion. One that applies not only to field aging the lion, but one that applies to lion conservation, and its likely future as well.

Baldry - I know, you know better - when it comes to the pic of the lion you posted with his mouth open. If not, hmmmm?

With the info provided, and the 1 pic that can been seen, I would pass on this lion. Not because I do not think he's old enough, but I would like to be more certain that he does not have dependent cubs. JMO.

How does one tell if a lion has dependent cups if one finds the lion alone, and old enough to shoot?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Frankly, its actually SAD to see to the degree of which some here on AR have made the "conservation" efforts in favor of the lion - into a JOKE! Pathetic is probably a better word for it, IMO. Hunters are always telling the non-hunting public what stewards of wildlife we all are. Ya, read some here on AR - and its not a far cry to see why many of them just aren't buying it. I don't get it, but each to his own obviously. Coming together in a like minded effort for the LION would be much more productive - again, JMO.

The Lion is at a crucial tipping point in the future of Africa's wildlife, and African hunting in general. Lose this fight, and watch how fast others like the elephant, maybe the leopard will follow. But those who do nothing more than banter an un-educated/sarcastic/argumentative opinion around on AR - would know nothing about that. Only those who have spent hundreds of hours of their own time, effort and in some cases - money too, actually have an educated and experienced opinion. One that applies not only to field aging the lion, but one that applies to lion conservation, and its likely future as well.

Baldry - I know, you know better - when it comes to the pic of the lion you posted with his mouth open. If not, hmmmm?

With the info provided, and the 1 pic that can been seen, I would pass on this lion. Not because I do not think he's old enough, but I would like to be more certain that he does not have dependent cubs. JMO.

Aaron,

I don't think anyone take this as a joke. Btw: How many lions have you shot now? 15 or so? So a guy has one shot and short of a post mortem dental exam and proper CT scans he should pass? This is what has become absurd. I have read and reread the numerous threads and posts that criticize people for there hunting decisions. Based on your assessment, very few people would have the ability to judge a lion as to appropriate age. I base this assertion in part because I hunted the first lion with TAWICO in 2006 under the 6 year rule. It was not the hot button item it is now until 2006 although it should have been. My concerns are for the every day hunter that may only get that one chance. I personally have killed 2 lions and may choose not to "afford" another. The gray area judgement calls seem to hang every one up. These are also the same call the PH is likely to face.

It is that; a judgement call. Educating is fine. but far to often these threads deginerate into solopistic excoriations.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I personally have killed 2 lions and may choose not to "afford" another.

Jeff

Or...Sally Jewel may choose for you.

The point that I (and I believe Aaron too) is this:

Don't kick dust in the face of those (read Dr. Paula white et al.) trying to save you.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The point that I (and I believe Aaron too) is this:

Don't kick dust in the face of those (read Dr. Paula white et al.) trying to save you.

And who pray tell is doing that?

MY POINT is the tone and timber of these threads. Sorry it is not THE point.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Frankly, its actually SAD to see to the degree of which some here on AR have made the "conservation" efforts in favor of the lion - into a JOKE! Pathetic is probably a better word for it, IMO. Hunters are always telling the non-hunting public what stewards of wildlife we all are. Ya, read some here on AR - and its not a far cry to see why many of them just aren't buying it. I don't get it, but each to his own obviously. Coming together in a like minded effort for the LION would be much more productive - again, JMO.

The Lion is at a crucial tipping point in the future of Africa's wildlife, and African hunting in general. Lose this fight, and watch how fast others like the elephant, maybe the leopard will follow. But those who do nothing more than banter an un-educated/sarcastic/argumentative opinion around on AR - would know nothing about that. Only those who have spent hundreds of hours of their own time, effort and in some cases - money too, actually have an educated and experienced opinion. One that applies not only to field aging the lion, but one that applies to lion conservation, and its likely future as well.

Baldry - I know, you know better - when it comes to the pic of the lion you posted with his mouth open. If not, hmmmm?

With the info provided, and the 1 pic that can been seen, I would pass on this lion. Not because I do not think he's old enough, but I would like to be more certain that he does not have dependent cubs. JMO.

Aaron,

Lose what fight? Some Lady in Government decided to implement a blanket ban on hunting here?

Moving back to the thread:

I would have a quick look at the female and if it was obvious she was not lactating and she was single then I would probably advise my client to shoot the Lion. Hunting in the field is very different from sniping here on the internet.

As you know with some of your Lions it is very difficult to calculate accurate age and I as a PH would rather hunt a lone mature 5 - 6 year old than a pride male. It is also difficult to get these cats on bait. Bait maybe in short supply etc etc. When the opportunity arises the opportunity should be taken.

Leave the prides be that is unless you come across an old male on his last legs.

All this nose and teeth nonsense is irrelevant in the gloom of the early morn.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The point that I (and I believe Aaron too) is this:

Don't kick dust in the face of those (read Dr. Paula white et al.) trying to save you.

Our Minister quoted Paula White at the convention which coincided with the ban?

As far as I am concerned Paula has as much influence as my gardener.

quote:

Originally posted by Fairgame:
Effectively we are saying you might as well pack your guns away 5 days prior to the end of your safari?

I am sure that there are some operators who would prefer that, one indicator may be if during the "sales cycle" they tell you "hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt"

quote:

Proof that the tooth theory is also a load of codswallop and cannot be relied upon either?

hehe

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
But, this raises another tickling question.

When a male becomes old enough to shoot, and they are aware of its location, do they decide which hunter gets that honor?

I actually think there have been some lawsuits about these and similar issues, some not found in the operators favor? Did that Bwana post on here mich?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
What a load of BS. You take one photo of a lion of speculative identity and of speculative age at best and use that as "proof"...dam...I have heard every excuse in the book now.

Didn't you just burn up half of the bandwidth known to man over 1 freaking picture on another thread?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
P.S.
It is NOT only the sharpness of the canines...but the ridge on the posterior margin and just as importantly the health of the incisors which we can't see in your pic.

Hey Lane, what did you judge the ridge at on the pic of the lion Fairgame posted?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Nielson:
Frankly, its actually SAD to see to the degree of which some here on AR have made the "conservation" efforts in favor of the lion - into a JOKE! Pathetic is probably a better word for it,

Umm, perhaps you should look at the 2 founders of the LCTF, 1 with zero real time experience with lions choosing to openly castigate some of the more experienced ph's, the other who chose to blow a hole in a pridemale in Mozambique first night of the hunt.

quote:

originally posted by Aaron Nielson;
With the info provided, and the 1 pic that can been seen, I would pass on this lion. Not because I do not think he's old enough, but I would like to be more certain that he does not have dependent cubs. JMO.

WTF are you talking about? what in that picture would make you think that is a pride male? You ventilated a pride male that showed up on the 1st night with 2+ lionesses and didn't suspect that was a pride male? Are you the "lion whisperer"?

quote:

originally posted by Fairgame:
When the opportunity arises the opportunity should be taken.

Spoken like a "HUNTER"!!

Whilst we debate gentlemen let us have another look at this great free ranging Lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Frankly, its actually SAD to see to the degree of which some here on AR have made the "conservation" efforts in favor of the lion - into a JOKE! Pathetic is probably a better word for it, IMO. Hunters are always telling the non-hunting public what stewards of wildlife we all are. Ya, read some here on AR - and its not a far cry to see why many of them just aren't buying it. I don't get it, but each to his own obviously. Coming together in a like minded effort for the LION would be much more productive - again, JMO.

The Lion is at a crucial tipping point in the future of Africa's wildlife, and African hunting in general. Lose this fight, and watch how fast others like the elephant, maybe the leopard will follow. But those who do nothing more than banter an un-educated/sarcastic/argumentative opinion around on AR - would know nothing about that. Only those who have spent hundreds of hours of their own time, effort and in some cases - money too, actually have an educated and experienced opinion. One that applies not only to field aging the lion, but one that applies to lion conservation, and its likely future as well.

Baldry - I know, you know better - when it comes to the pic of the lion you posted with his mouth open. If not, hmmmm?

With the info provided, and the 1 pic that can been seen, I would pass on this lion. Not because I do not think he's old enough, but I would like to be more certain that he does not have dependent cubs. JMO.

Aaron,

I don't think anyone take this as a joke. Btw: How many lions have you shot now? 15 or so? So a guy has one shot and short of a post mortem dental exam and proper CT scans he should pass? This is what has become absurd. I have read and reread the numerous threads and posts that criticize people for there hunting decisions. Based on your assessment, very few people would have the ability to judge a lion as to appropriate age. I base this assertion in part because I hunted the first lion with TAWICO in 2006 under the 6 year rule. It was not the hot button item it is now until 2006 although it should have been. My concerns are for the every day hunter that may only get that one chance. I personally have killed 2 lions and may choose not to "afford" another. The gray area judgement calls seem to hang every one up. These are also the same call the PH is likely to face.

It is that; a judgement call. Educating is fine. but far to often these threads deginerate into solopistic excoriations.

Jeff

Jeff - I've shot plenty, we both know that.

Its also obvious to see that some look at this lion issue (here on AR) as simply an opportunity to take every advantage to bash Lane, any chance they get. Yes, to me that's a joke and pathetic - both! He's dedicated hundreds of hours of time, energy, and money - trying to fight for the continuance of the lion, and conservation minded lion hunting. Something we all should be thankful for. It may not always be what we like to hear, or see, but its generally accurate, and generally the consensus of the "scientific" community - of which, they are the ONLY folks the USFWS/CITES are likely to listen to. So ya, when the man is doing all he can to fight for our hunting rights, and the lion, I do find it a joke to see the likes of some constantly bashing the man, and the science, when they have never done a damn thing for the lion, or the cause. They know nothing about the science, they have done nothing to counter the best available science at the time, should they dis-agree, they've done nothing for the lion - period! Do something, take some action, change things to what "you" think they should be, help make new rules/laws, just do something besides argue, complain, and tell others why they are wrong.

The "every day hunter", which is all of us! Is free to do as he wishes, period. No one is expecting him to make a judgment call on age, it really should be the PH making that call, correct? And as you mention, its a judgment call. When looking at the most recent lions posted by Shawn, taken by MS - its clear Mark is certainly capable of making a concerted effort to only shoot "big" lions. I do believe one of them would likely go 5 yrs old at most, but that's an estimate/opinion. Its not criticism, as he is and always has done an excellent job IMO of targeting older/mature lions. That's what a good PH should do - and the hunter should be advised of such plans prior booking. If "Getting one" is most important (which I understand) then maybe South Africa, should be a consideration.

I get it bro, I too am not sure if I "choose" to afford another one or not? But if I do, the money spent will not be the deciding factor when it comes to pulling the trigger. Again though, that's my choice - others are free to do something different.

It really makes no difference whether one has shot one lion or a 100.
The point is we have to find a way to continue to hunt lions.

And because of the 6 year rule, we have to find a more positive way of judging lion age in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It really makes no difference whether one has shot one lion or a 100.
The point is we have to find a way to continue to hunt lions.

And because of the 6 year rule, we have to find a more positive way of judging lion age in the field.

Saeed,

I would say that AR is in the front of Lion conservation.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It really makes no difference whether one has shot one lion or a 100.
The point is we have to find a way to continue to hunt lions.

And because of the 6 year rule, we have to find a more positive way of judging lion age in the field.

Saeed - Spot on my friend! Whether we like it or not (and I have always said the hard/fast 6 yr old law in TZ is not truly obtainable) it is the law!

Most importantly is to continue to have legal/allowable/importable lion hunting. Secondly, is just as you say - to find a good way to "most" accurately field judge lions.

It will never be 100% accurate, simple as that. Thus it would be awesome if countries would adopt a more sensible plan, like the Niassa Points system. One that allows for error in judgment, without strict/overwhelming penalties.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

Oh boy ..... did you forget to take your meds, lane?
Calm down man...

Caracal,
The lion issue is spiralling out of control at the moment. If you follow the politics of the US...you know that the Dept. of Interior (who rules the USF&W) is very "GREEN" (for lack of better terms) right now. If we thought Ken Salazar was bad...The NEW SI - Sally Jewel is worse. Publically she announced when taking office that she certainly hoped that there were no "doubters of GW" in the Dept of Interior.

With her as the leader of the USF&W...how do do think they are going to rule on up-listing the lion??? Then once that happens...what do you think the EU is going to do??? I would guess...probably follow suit.

So the strategy that the LCTF has embraced has been to ally with the best science available and at least take the 'scientific teeth' (no pun intended) away.

The best science available goes against what Andrew has stated about teeth...hence the comment I made.

If there is a woman in charge then it's over. Hormones, combined with democrap policies will just about finish this issue..

BANG BANG!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It really makes no difference whether one has shot one lion or a 100.
The point is we have to find a way to continue to hunt lions.

And because of the 6 year rule, we have to find a more positive way of judging lion age in the field.

Saeed - Spot on my friend! Whether we like it or not (and I have always said the hard/fast 6 yr old law in TZ is not truly obtainable) it is the law!

Most importantly is to continue to have legal/allowable/importable lion hunting. Secondly, is just as you say - to find a good way to "most" accurately field judge lions.

It will never be 100% accurate, simple as that. Thus it would be awesome if countries would adopt a more sensible plan, like the Niassa Points system. One that allows for error in judgment, without strict/overwhelming penalties.

Spot on Aaron!

I have said this before but will try to explain again.

Teeth are not (common sense dictates) useful in field judging lion 90+% of the time. Nobody has ever said to look at teeth (unless you get that rare opportunity) in the 'LIVE LION'. They (dental exams) along with x-rays of them and a good skull exam provide enough data for us to accurately place lion into categories of <5, 5-6, 7 and >. That is all we really need for hunting and conservation purposes...the rest is academic. And...those categories can be sorted post-mortem accurately.

The 'idea' is to study as many of these 'aged specimens' as possible (whether yours or others) and learn 'a set of criteria' that can be seen in the field...then err on the side of caution. If you want to buy a lion...go to RSA...otherwise hunters should realize they are buying a "lion hunt".

As far as the cub thing goes...one will NEVER know 100% but the idea is to at least do some checking before you pile out of the truck and pull the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The point that I (and I believe Aaron too) is this:

Don't kick dust in the face of those (read Dr. Paula white et al.) trying to save you.

And who pray tell is doing that?


Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The point that I (and I believe Aaron too) is this:

Don't kick dust in the face of those (read Dr. Paula white et al.) trying to save you.

Our Minister quoted Paula White at the convention which coincided with the ban?

As far as I am concerned Paula has as much influence as my gardener.

Jeff,
Enough said???

quote:

Baldry - I know, you know better - when it comes to the pic of the lion you posted with his mouth open. If not, hmmmm?

Aaron. The camera does not lie. This old male's teeth shows no wear.

Aaron,

In your last Tanzanian Video it took you one minutes to assess and monitor Amber Knowlton's Lion. A Lion that you and the PH had never seen before?

Do you not think that this was a case of an eleventh hour decision and fuck it let's shoot first and ask questions later?

Again the camera does not lie.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Baldry - I know, you know better - when it comes to the pic of the lion you posted with his mouth open. If not, hmmmm?

Aaron. The camera does not lie. This old male's teeth shows no wear.

Andrew,

I would like to disagree with you on the statement that the teeth show no wear. Tooth wear is evident, and so is their coloration. Not enough to be used in isolation to base one's accurate "age" estimation for that lion but points you in the right direction

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
But, this raises another tickling question.

When a male becomes old enough to shoot, and they are aware of its location, do they decide which hunter gets that honor?



I actually think there have been some lawsuits about these and similar issues, some not found in the operators favor? Did that Bwana post on here mich?

Care to elaborate further with facts? Or do you just like talking in code language that only you understand

"He told me to do it"

Herein lies part of the problem!

The attitude that you don't have to educate yourself about viable lions because if your PH tells you to shoot you'll shoot!

You guys who have said this do realise that 'he told me to do it' wouldn't stand up in court right?

How about you man up and educate yourselves to be able to make a coherrent decision about viable lions for yourself?

It's fine to rely on someone to help you but it's not ok to remove all personal responsibility by doing as you're told!

This kind of crap happens far too often nowadays.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Baldry - I know, you know better - when it comes to the pic of the lion you posted with his mouth open. If not, hmmmm?

Aaron. The camera does not lie. This old male's teeth shows no wear.

Andrew,

I would like to disagree with you on the statement that the teeth show no wear. Tooth wear is evident, and so is their coloration. Not enough to be used in isolation to base one's accurate "age" estimation for that lion but points you in the right direction

Actually...there is quite a bit of wear on these teeth. The canines are much more worn than MS lion and it looks like he is missing some incisors...which MS lion was not. They estimate this lion being 10 which is possible...but strong evidence the MS lion was younger than this one.

In the field we can deduce that ageing by tooth is impractical and the black nose theory has been thrown out the window.

The way I look at it is that if I am given a quota of Lion it is because they occur in healthy numbers. No one has disproved my 'single 5 year old hairy male' theory in an area where Lion are common.

Therefore what is wrong (as with every other specie) with the shooting of a representative specie?

In the Kafue it is the the Crawshay's Defassa Waterbuck that is endangered and no body gives a flying fuck about them. Or the Yellow Back Duiker which is now extinct.