Well, as a guy who shot a black wildebeest in Namibia, let me tell you I wish I had known it wasn't endemic BEFORE I pulled the trigger (of course, then it wouldn't have happened and the outfitter would've been out the cash).

For good or for bad, JJ's been pretty spot on about the East Cape hunting situation as near as I have learned after talking to a lot of folks in terms of introduced species, "restocking" etc. Most outfitters/agents in my experience don't bother to deny it and present it as is, and let the hunter decide. If its what you want, go have some fun. But if the non-indigenous factor matters to you, I would think it would be far better to be educated before rather than after the hunt. I sure wish I was. It would have changed my plans.

Out of sheer morbid curiosity, I checked out the offending thread on 24 hour and how you twisted that from telling you how it is to insulting you, is not apparent to me. And post this 6 months after the other thread died?

The notion that nobody going to Africa cares whether it was introduced? Bizarre. I know several hunters who have written off South Africa for exactly the reason that they can't know for sure if they are hunting put and take, non-indigenous, etc. (Fences don't help my argument either. My experience with the Black Wildebeest in Namibia doesn't exactly put them over the top on that country.)

For what its worth, I have not hunted with JJ nor do I have plans too. Not because of any of this, I'm just not terribly interested in Limpopo.

Regardless, as long as you know what you're buying (and you sure do now!) and are OK with that, I'm sure you'll have a good time.

JVinAK,

Therefore, based upon your thoughts/feelings, you should never hunt hogs here in the US, or tahr, chamois and red stage in New Zealand, water buffalo in Australia, etc. the list goes on.

Put and take, or purchasing animals at auction, 'restocking" or whatever, doesn't only happen in the Eastern Cape.

As a matter of fact, I've hunted a property that JJ represents and sells hunts on, and he has even hunted the same property. Both his and my pictures on are on the same website. This property sells a certain species to other landowners.

The first morning of my safari, I assisted in loading animals in a trailer headed to where, LIMPOPO!! As a mater of fact, this happened twice over my safari. (I've got pictures if you would like to see them.) While I hunted there, we would routinely stop by the pens and feed captured animals awaiting transportation. I had the opportunity to assist in catching some animals that were being sold to another property, which is a story all itself. Did it dimenish the enjoyment I had on my hunt? Absolutely not! Just part of the experience. Do I look down on the landowner who purchased the animals knowing the animals were going to be hunted at some point? Nope, no different than what happens in other portions of the world.

I really have no problem with what has been said so far. Honestly! But to say that certain things only happen in a certain location is in my opinion painting with a very broad brush. I know JJ is a very accomplished outfitter, but for him to portray that he, as an outfitter, has never had a client shoot a species that is/was not indigenous to a certain location, would be a mith IMO. Besides, there are many indigenous species that are located in the Eastern Cape that IMO are worth the trip to hunt, a cape grysbok being one of them, which I hope to take in August!!!

Besides, who really cares because you're going to be hunting in AFRICA, right?

Well, my personal PREFERENCES really have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I do consider your comparison of a free range by every definition tahr in New Zealand to be a completely different thing from trucking animals from one high fenced area to another like you describe. Apples to Oranges IMO. (And boy do I need to keep your description of what you saw away from the guys I'm trying to talk into going to Africa with me!)

That wasn't my point, really. Had I known the situation at hand, I would not have shot the wildebeest. I would have liked to have known before hand. As I read the original thread that started all this, that's all JJ did.

As far as the operation he runs - I have no idea and am not armed sufficient to comment on it.

I'm sure you'll have a great time in August.

No problem!!!

Just remember those tahr in New Zealand were trucked in on a boated at some time. So, it really is a apples vs apples comparison. Just one apple wagon happen a long time before the recent one!

Not trying to stir the pot here, but I have a question. For those purists among us who worry about the non-indigenous status of game they hunt, what is the feeling regarding indigenos game that has been historically extirpated from a region and then re-introduced? Here in Ontario, we are engaged in the re-introduction of American elk to our province, after these animals were wiped out within the past few hundred years. Personally I look forward to the possibility of hunting elk here at home. Does this offend the delicate sensibilities of some folk? Just curious. I'm not trying to highjack this thread, but the question seems relevant.

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:
Not trying to stir the pot here, but I have a question. For those purists among us who worry about the non-indigenous status of game they hunt, what is the feeling regarding indigenos game that has been historically extirpated from a region and then re-introduced?

Since you brought it up....
I have no problem hunting non indigenous game. Pigs are not indigenous to California, but they are our most popular game.

Wild is much more important to me.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Just remember those tahr in New Zealand were trucked in on a boated at some time. So, it really is a apples vs apples comparison. Just one apple wagon happen a long time before the recent one!

That is an impressive feat of rationalisation!

Dean

maki,

Non-indigenous is non-indigenous, regardless of how or when the animal got there. Right?

So, you're telling me there is a difference between the following senerio.

You take a breeding group of tahr and place it on an island. In this case, the island basically represents a fenced area or place the animals can no longer travel out of.

You take a breeding group of black wildebeest and place it in a fenced enclosure in Namibia of exactly the same size as the island at exactly the same time as you placed the tahr on the island.

So, it is 100% acceptable to shoot the tahr and not the black wildebeest? Why? Both are non-indigenous to the present locations hunted.

But what you're really saying is that hunting tahr in Oz is acceptable because it was introduced about 100 years ago. But hunting a gemsbok in the Eastern Cape, or a black wildebeest in Namibia, is not acceptable because it was only introduced maybe 20-30 years ago. Why? They're both non-indigenous regardless of the amount of time they have been introduced. Right?

This whole thread is about hunting non-indigenous game. To me, it makes no differences if it is non-indigenous or not. As long as the hunt is ethical and legal, then I have no problem if the species is non-indigenous, regardless of who the trigger yanker might be. And, that includes a black wildebbest in Namibia, a hog in California, a gemsbok in New Mexico or the Eastern Cape, a blackbuck in Texas, a tahr in New Zealand, a turkey in Hawaii, a red stag in South America, or a Banteng in Australia.

That'll be $0.02 please!!

I guess we've well and truly strayed from where this thread started, but my take on it.

WARNING: this applies only to how I spend my money. Others are free to spend theirs as they wish. This is also not religious dogma and constantly evolves. To top it off, since this is about me deciding how I spend my money, I freely and capriciously make completely arbitrary decisions. So you are all warned.

Anyway, I have a sort of "level of fakeness" scale that I weigh things against. There are a lot of factors that come in to play. Were the animals bred or moved for the purpose of them being hunted? Genetically modified or fed feed to enhance the antlers? Type and size of enclosure? Native or not? Degree of "management"?

Level one would be drugged/caged animals. Following closely on are most of your lion hunts in RSA.

Maybe the next level would be where they let a animal into a puny enclosure for the hunter.

Things start to get more muddled at this point. For example, I detest what Texas has done with all the exotics. Dall sheep in Texas being one example. Loathsome, though legal and perfectly within the rights of the land owner. But no $$$$ from me.

Then we come to managed deer in Texas. Again, I could never do this, because you combine fences with gross genetic manipulation though they are native. Not for me. Red stag in high fenced enclosures in New Zealand or Argentina also fall into this category, though they also have the addition of not being native. Kind of a trifecta.

At this point we have evolved on up to large fenced ranches for native game. I held my nose and did this in Namibia (I was told it was a non-fence operation before I got there, and the initial location for the first two days was. It was the subsequent location that wasn't. Long story really.) Like I mentioned previously, this isn't religious dogma and I had come a long way to do this. So I did the fenced hunting. It was fair chase enough, but I hated the way you had to hunt impala through this gate, hartebeest through this one, etc. A previously unconsidered degree of fakeness. The animals wouldn't normally be segregated in this fashion in the wild. They also said something along the lines of "100,000 acres" and failed to mention the internal fences that made it 10,000. They trapped all the natural predators they could. But I digress.

We now come to unfenced tahr, chamois in NZ and unfenced red stag in Argentina. I can see possibly doing this and I freely admit that the fact they have been there 200 years and are not being managed and bred to be hunted is a distinguishing factor. (The factors that leave a bad taste in my mouth about the Namibian wildebeest i.e. population established in a non-native zone behind a fence solely for the purpose of being hunted). New Mexican gemsbok would probably reside around here, except that I have done the math on a non-res license, air fare etc and with that kind of coin you're practically most of the way to being able to hunt them in Namibia. So no thanks.

At the top of the pyramid, and where I try to spend my hard earned hunting dollars are unfenced, free range, non-managed animals. Like most everything I do here in Alaska.

Getting back to the point of this post - I want to know all the factors in the fakeness scale before I sign up. And I ask really specific questions to get this information. And if I didn't, I'd be happy that somebody would take the time to tell me.

For all that typing, can I get at least a nickel rather that 2 cents?

P.S. Give an elk a generation or two in Ontario in their former range (and not being fed or other inducements to tame them) and I'm in, assuming no fence.

JVinAK

You saved me a bunch of typing. I agree with almost everything you wrote.

I have never hunted behind a fence and I never will. Just one of my personal hang-ups.

Regardless of size of the enclosure, etc. it is still "enclosed". The land owner owns those animals. There is no getting around that.

Once you enclose the property the animals are no longer "wild/free ranging". Who cares if they are indigenous if they are not free ranging?

To each his own.

JVinAK,

Hell, I'd give ya a dime, because you are spot on and I agree with you.

Everyone has their degree of what is acceptable or not. I've hunted behind a fence in RSA and have no ill feelings about it, and it was not one of those go thru this gate to get X and Y animals. They were all allowed to move as they wished throughout the property. Although, I will say we did hunt certain areas of the property for certain species, i.e. nyala, bushbuck and red duiker near the creekbed in the thick stuff, etc.

What was orginally posed in the initial thread, is that someone from another website downgraded a hunter because they were choosing to hunt in the Eastern Cape because the wool was being pulled over their eyes and the entire hunting industry in the EC is fake. The poster then admitted later that this sort of hunting has its place because it is cheap. Well, hunting for less money is like shopping for a new car or house. You shop around until you find what you like, can afford and then you buy it. Some stay within their budget and get what they can afford whether it be used or new, but don't kick sand in their face, which is what started the whole thread!

The fact of the matter is that if you hunt RSA, you're probably going to hunt behind some sort of fence with varying degrees of the amount of land enclosed.

And, as Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I got to say about that."

JVinAK

Since we've already traveled a considerable distance from the original question I'd like to find out how areas like the Save Conservancy fits into your "level of fakeness". At 850,000 acres with no interior fencing and in fact a 16 km break in the exterior fence it would seem the Save might have its own category. To me the Save is one of the greatest hunt destinations on the continent and the exterior fence is irrelevant but that of course is my personal opinion.

Mark

When talking fences, area enclosed is the major factor I consider. I think the Save would be about as close to free range as you can get and still have a fence.

Interesting about the break in the fence - I wasn't aware of that previously. Is there some logic behind that?

JV

It's no secret that part of the Save is occuppied by "War Vets" and the area bordered by the broken fence is an occupied area. I guess the "War Vets" didn't think their cows would be well received if they came in through the regular gate.

Mark

While fences exist in RSA and the EC, in particular, their effectiveness as a game management tool varies greatly. This is not only because of the size of a given property, but the fact that the animals STILL get on and off the property (even with high fences) with relative ease, especially the larger animals. I witnessed - with my own two eyes - as two, young kudu bulls we frightened OUTSIDE of the main property (read: free ranging) I hunted in the Eastern Cape broke INTO said property by ripping a hole in the fence with their teeth. I have it on video and will gladly digitize said video if proof is required beyond my word. The interior fences that exist for the sheep/cattle on the property? Forget about it: springbok, impala, kudu, etc. jump clear over it at will and that's not including the gamut of holes the bigger animals have punched all over it. My bottom line with the whole fence thing is if you've hunted your uncle Joe's cattle ranch for whitetail deer in the US, you've pretty much hunted very similar conditions to RSA. If you don't feel any guilt over hunting on a private farm in the states, you really shouldn't have any guilt over hunting 30,000+ acres in the Eastern Cape, high fenced or not. I know I didn't.

Hey Scotty (et all!)

As you know, I'm one of the lucky guys going on this trip with you in a few weeks to the East Cape, and it'll be my first time. There's a couple purists comments here, and you know, that's all well and good, I can understand but personally, to each his own, OK? I wonder if those guys would feel dirty about shooting a russian boar here in California? I sure don't, tasty rascals too! Personally, I really don't care what animals are indigenous to where we're going, as long as they are cool animals and, as one wise man put it, they are WILD and it's fair chase!

Peace

Scotty,

I'm an outfitter based near Grahamstown in the Eastern Cape. Indiginous game to the EC incl
Cape Buffalo
Lion
leopard
elephant
Black and white rhino
Hippo
Aardwolf
Blesbuck
Bushpig
Cape kudu
Cape eland
Cape bushbuck
Common duiker
Bllue duiker
Cape grysbuck
Caracal
Mountain reedbuck
Red Hartebeest
Oribi
Ostrich
Springbuck
Steenbuck
Vaal rhebuck
Warthog
Burchell and mountain Zebra.

The guys that tell you these were introduced and now crop raiders etc, are just talking shit! And If they are outfitters they are just jealous that you are'nt hunting with them.

Enjoy your hunt, it will be your best in S.A. I guarentee you. Post a report and let us know how it goes.

Regards

Murray

Remember that the Eastern Cape is a big area that varies immensely, hence the variation in species.
Note that there are a great many animals indifferent to fences, such as bushpig, warthog (introduced but taking over), duiker- blue and grey, etc. and much of the best hunting takes place in non-typical game areas and are not fenced, such as vaal rhebuck in the Sneeuberg mountains. Many ranches are stock ranches that don't care about high fences (such as my own) so there is nothing stopping that kudu from heading for Cape Town, and he knows it.
Someone mentioned no bushbuck in Graaff Reinet. Well, there are a few that have come in naturally, but the Karoo is not their traditional environment and so the local park will not list them.
Incidentally, the local park has only low (4 foot 6") fences and has buffalo, eland, hartebeest, hundreds of kudu, etc.
There is a rivalry between the provinces of SA that is unnecessary as it is impossible to generalise.
I suggest you investigate each outfit rather than each province.

You will also sometimes see nyala and waterbuck on some farms in the EC, neither of which are endemic there. You will find bushbuck naturally occuring on just about every farm, where the bush is thick enough. I think the EC with it's valley bushveld is stunning. It is quite different to the bush further north, but it certainly grows on you with time. One major bonus too is there is no malaria in the area!

The last three posts were EXACTLY what I was looking for (Ian's too on the 1st page)...

Thank you all for the information, gentlemen. That includes ALL responses to the thread. It has been entertaining and enlightening.

Scotty
i believe the eastern cape guys are sticking together as always,thank you settler and karoo,
Scott when i meet you at the airport in east london you will start your fun filled adventure with us at kei river hunting safaris,
You will experience the eastern cape first hand and enjoy it,one question still remains though and that is what specie was jj hack looking for in the eastern cape and who did he hunt through.?????.So many negatives about us but he still has the ordacity to hunt here,!!!!!!

Interesting reading this thread.
I hunted/stalked/managed alot of deer in the U.K and wild boar too, and if I remember correctly 5 of the 6 speices of deer in the U.K were introduced and wild boar were too, all many years ago,so would hunters turn the oppurtunity down? on "ethical"grounds? I doubt it.
I hunted quite a few places in Zim and a few in Eastern Cape, and all of my hunting trips (not when working or taking clients) were to be enjoyed,different places,people and different experiences.
I like the EC, and have taken few animals there, also saw alot of Fallow deer which didn`t interest me in the slightest, as,when in U.K I used to shoot more than I cared for.
As for fenced areas, thats a difficult one, if stock fenced thats not too bad,but game fenced, I not too keen on the sound of that, I never hunted a game fenced area, I`ve hunted stock fenced areas, and IPMO stock fences make no difference to game animals.
Hunted in the Winterberg once, was bloody hard work over fences,made no difference to the game, they just hopped over as we started a stalk towars them
My advice would be, forget whats introduced animals, as you could limit yourself,if you dig far enough back,most things were introduced or spread, and just enjoy yourselves, a group of mates going to a wonderful area to do some hunting, to do some talking (without keyboards ) have a few beers too I expect, and to ENJOY.
Just my modest opinion.

Andrew

good to see you on here. You should stick your head in here more often.

We'll see you in less than 2 weeks. I have to admit, I am getting excited about the hunt..even if it is just for danged PG in the dreaded EC!!


I am looking forward to cold stiff drinks and a good fire every evening with good friends, old and new, more than anything..

See ya soon bud!

I was glad to see couple guys from the Eastern Cape respond. Throughout RSA the lines are very blurred about what was native and what has been introduced (or re-introduced, what's the diff?)--but I'm not sure there is any other region in Africa that has the total variety of the Eastern Cape. Many areas remain low-fenced or un-fenced, and you can go from beach to high mountain and back in a day. You guys will have a great hunt, and you'll probably be back. I'll be back in the E.C. myself the end of May. Good hunting, Craig

I'm heading back to the EC in a few weeks and personally, I love it there. I love those beautiful colored sunsets (thanks to the moisture coming off the Indian Ocean), the flora and ever changing topography. Lots of variety in the game animals to see and hunt and as mentioned, many "ranches" have low or no fencing. Most are leftover cattle fences and do we think anything about hunting deer or elk on a western cattle ranch? Thanks to our good friends in Alberta, Canada, Tennessee now has huntable Elk again. Our last eastern Elk (now extinct) was shot in 1865, at the end of the Civil War. Regardless, many of the ranches in the EC are beginning to combine to form huge conservancies, some totalling over 100,000 acres. I've taken two Kudu from the EC and both times it took me 9 days of HUNTING to get them. Trophy quality is outstanding if you have a good area and a ranch that practices quality management, hunt hard and have a little luck on your side. Some of the finest humans I have ever met are from the Eastern Cape, but to be fair, I find this true of most African men and women. Scotty, you guys have a great trip and good hunting.
Cheers,
David

Thank you Craig and David,
the eastern cape has a special hospitality ,treat our customers like people deserve and yes ,THE EASTERN CAPE RULES!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by JJHACK:

I would suggest that the very great majority of folks( hunting with us) are more of the purist personality. They would prefer if going that far to experience Africa to hunt the game where is natural. This conversation comes to me every week with people calling and emailing me. They want a Nyala from Natal, the want Black wildebeest from the Drakensburg, they want Gemsbok from the Kalahari, etc etc.

There are two different kinds of Gemsbok the bush Gemsbok and the Kalahari. All you need to do is learn a bit. and even experience this. Bush Gemsbok are natural in the Northern Province, Kalahari are not. Once you see both it's obvious that the design and evolution of the hooves are completely different. The sand hooves of the kalahari version stand out from the Bush species quite a bit.

Just to clarify 1 the black wildebeest does not hail from the drakensburg but the cental free state and northern and central East Cape all they way down to near Cape town.
2 diffrent Gemsbuck? . . . "bush gemsbuck?" whos the internet expert give me a refernce to this species so that I can add it to my list.
gemsbuck originally roamed from the Kalahari all the way down to the camdeboo near Somerset East and Graaff-Rienet and to the west areas DEEP inside the Eastern Cape.Plains of the camdeboo by Eve Palmer page 138.

read page 133(refering to a dig site on cranemere- central east cape between Somerset east and Graaff-Rienet).. . the bones we have un-earthed so far have all been modern animals. . Eland,Gemsbuck,Hartebeest,bblack wildebeest,buffallo,hyena,wild dog,cheetah,WARTHOG,hippo. . .

The Eastern cape has on Average large hunting areas from 4 000acre to 50 000acres.These areas are fenced but so are the farms in the Limpopo.
I was asked to hunt a cape buffalo in the limpopo on 1000 acres . . . its a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

IF YOU CAN ONLY SELL HUNTS BY BAD MOUTHING OTHER AREAS?? . . . GOOD LUCK

Dave Davenport
proudly hunting the Eastern Cape on large areas with free roaming game (40 - 50 000 acres is free roaming)

The eastern cape is huge and has massive bio-diversity.Studies have shown that Impala have migrated from Natal into the E.C as far as Graaff-Rienet
the Great Rindepest killed everything in its path in the time of the first settlers what animals are indiginous to South Africa and Southern South Africa?