quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer:
it's always a leap of faith to send big dollars to a 3rd world country.

I have had a deposit stolen by a shit outfitter who posts here on accurate reloading.

the BOY is the second shit outfitter I've been scammed by in south Africa.

Two crummy/thief outfitters and a crummy/thief taxidermist . . . I would change the way I go about lining up hunts and taxidermy work. That just sounds more than coincidental.

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer:
it's always a leap of faith to send big dollars to a 3rd world country.

I have had a deposit stolen by a shit outfitter who posts here on accurate reloading.

the BOY is the second shit outfitter I've been scammed by in south Africa.

Could you please name them?

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by ftg767:
I have a sample of one safari. But I have spent time with the PH/outfitter for years. And the best reference he needed was my wife. She is the best judge of character I have ever known. And has never been wrong. He ate numerous dinners at my table while he is here for the shows. Last time he was here we agreed on when I was coming...talked about the money and told him when I would have access to the $$ and could get a deposit to him. His words were: if you tell me you are coming, I don't need a deposit. We'll settle when you're done. I asked him before I left if he needed $$ and was told the same thing. So off I went and had a great time. Last day we agreed on the amount and as we agreed, I got his US bank info and went home. Next day I went to local branch of his bank with a check and he had his $$. All done on a handshake and trust. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat! Any one needing a referral for a PG hunt in Limpopo call me. I will go back. Soon.

Booking hunts on a handshake and trust works great in an ideal world...

But I was wondering how many clients who pay their Outfitters when they're back home as opposed to directly after the hunt have a contingency plan in place for in case they don't make it home.

It is not only about trust but rather about the unexpected.

Last year a client spent a considerable amount of money with me on a hunt for him and his daughter. I got paid in full before they left... Fortunately! Because a couple of weeks later he sadly lost his life as result of a heart attack. Nobody (him least of all) could have foreseen this. He was a healthy guy same age as me. Question arises what would have happened if the same client left on a handshake with the promise to pay later and had that heart attack on the airplane? Contacting his wife while still in mourning for the outstanding monies would not have been pleasant for either of us...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by ftg767:
I have a sample of one safari. But I have spent time with the PH/outfitter for years. And the best reference he needed was my wife. She is the best judge of character I have ever known. And has never been wrong. He ate numerous dinners at my table while he is here for the shows. Last time he was here we agreed on when I was coming...talked about the money and told him when I would have access to the $$ and could get a deposit to him. His words were: if you tell me you are coming, I don't need a deposit. We'll settle when you're done. I asked him before I left if he needed $$ and was told the same thing. So off I went and had a great time. Last day we agreed on the amount and as we agreed, I got his US bank info and went home. Next day I went to local branch of his bank with a check and he had his $$. All done on a handshake and trust. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat! Any one needing a referral for a PG hunt in Limpopo call me. I will go back. Soon.

Booking hunts on a handshake and trust works great in an ideal world...

But I was wondering how many clients who pay their Outfitters when they're back home as opposed to directly after the hunt have a contingency plan in place for in case they don't make it home.

It is not only about trust but rather about the unexpected.

Last year a client spent a considerable amount of money with me on a hunt for him and his daughter. I got paid in full before they left... Fortunately! Because a couple of weeks later he sadly lost his life as result of a heart attack. Nobody (him least of all) could have foreseen this. He was a healthy guy same age as me. Question arises what would have happened if the same client left on a handshake with the promise to pay later and had that heart attack on the airplane? Contacting his wife while still in mourning for the outstanding monies would not have been pleasant for either of us...

Wow, lucky for you or you would have been in mourning as well. In this case, you got a fully paid safari without the full cost.

I have a slight problem paying 100 percent of the cost of a hunt before I get there. I realize outfitters and PHs don't want "no shows", but if I do die or otherwise don't make it, there are clearly some costs that are not borne by the outfitter/PH.

quote:

Originally posted by alabama ed:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by ftg767:
I have a sample of one safari. But I have spent time with the PH/outfitter for years. And the best reference he needed was my wife. She is the best judge of character I have ever known. And has never been wrong. He ate numerous dinners at my table while he is here for the shows. Last time he was here we agreed on when I was coming...talked about the money and told him when I would have access to the $$ and could get a deposit to him. His words were: if you tell me you are coming, I don't need a deposit. We'll settle when you're done. I asked him before I left if he needed $$ and was told the same thing. So off I went and had a great time. Last day we agreed on the amount and as we agreed, I got his US bank info and went home. Next day I went to local branch of his bank with a check and he had his $$. All done on a handshake and trust. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat! Any one needing a referral for a PG hunt in Limpopo call me. I will go back. Soon.

Booking hunts on a handshake and trust works great in an ideal world...

But I was wondering how many clients who pay their Outfitters when they're back home as opposed to directly after the hunt have a contingency plan in place for in case they don't make it home.

It is not only about trust but rather about the unexpected.

Last year a client spent a considerable amount of money with me on a hunt for him and his daughter. I got paid in full before they left... Fortunately! Because a couple of weeks later he sadly lost his life as result of a heart attack. Nobody (him least of all) could have foreseen this. He was a healthy guy same age as me. Question arises what would have happened if the same client left on a handshake with the promise to pay later and had that heart attack on the airplane? Contacting his wife while still in mourning for the outstanding monies would not have been pleasant for either of us...

Wow, lucky for you or you would have been in mourning as well. In this case, you got a fully paid safari without the full cost.

I have a slight problem paying 100 percent of the cost of a hunt before I get there. I realize outfitters and PHs don't want "no shows", but if I do die or otherwise don't make it, there are clearly some costs that are not borne by the outfitter/PH.

I have never paid more than 50% of the day rates for me and for my wife (observer) in advance. The balance of the day rates and trophy fees are paid at conclusion of the hunt. payment is usually in cash or travelers cheques and sometimes by personal check or by advance payment to PHs bank. There should be a contract with your booking agent that details the payment amounts and methods and processes.

Prior to hunting with a safari company the first time check them out and ask for references, then check them out again, call the references. Make sure the references are recent, like last hunting season. Same goes for taxidermy studio.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

Wow, lucky for you or you would have been in mourning as well. In this case, you got a fully paid safari without the full cost.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

Wow, lucky for you or you would have been in mourning as well. In this case, you got a fully paid safari without the full cost.

No sir, you misunderstood me. I did not get a fully paid safari without the full cost. The client paid me before he left camp on his last safari day (as all mine do).

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer:
it's always a leap of faith to send big dollars to a 3rd world country.

I have had a deposit stolen by a shit outfitter who posts here on accurate reloading.

the BOY is the second shit outfitter I've been scammed by in south Africa.

Could you please name them?

quote:

Originally posted by sth:
Thanks for the great response and good advice in this thread.
I have once before hunting in Africa, and was cheated.
The story is: I bought a hunting package includes animals. Had to pay the full amount in advance. When the hunt began,the PH refused to leave the car, all hunting should be done from the car. I refused to accept it. He said simply, either you shoot or you lose.What could I do? Bad hunting and bad trophies.

And now I have bought plane tickets to Africa for 8 people in February, but have not yet found or ordered the hunt (3 hunters) I have to keep looking for serious agents or outfittere.
Hope I succeed

quote:

Originally posted by sth:
Thanks for the great response and good advice in this thread.
I have once before hunting in Africa, and was cheated.
The story is: I bought a hunting package includes animals. Had to pay the full amount in advance. When the hunt began,the PH refused to leave the car, all hunting should be done from the car. I refused to accept it. He said simply, either you shoot or you lose.What could I do? Bad hunting and bad trophies.

And now I have bought plane tickets to Africa for 8 people in February, but have not yet found or ordered the hunt (3 hunters) I have to keep looking for serious agents or outfittere.
Hope I succeed

quote:

Originally posted by sth:
Thanks for the great response and good advice in this thread.
I have once before hunting in Africa, and was cheated.
The story is: I bought a hunting package includes animals. Had to pay the full amount in advance. When the hunt began,the PH refused to leave the car, all hunting should be done from the car. I refused to accept it. He said simply, either you shoot or you lose.What could I do? Bad hunting and bad trophies.

And now I have bought plane tickets to Africa for 8 people in February, but have not yet found or ordered the hunt (3 hunters) I have to keep looking for serious agents or outfittere.
Hope I succeed

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer:

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer:
it's always a leap of faith to send big dollars to a 3rd world country.

I have had a deposit stolen by a shit outfitter who posts here on accurate reloading.

the BOY is the second shit outfitter I've been scammed by in south Africa.

Could you please name them?

So who is the "BOY"?? guessing its a EC PH ? (your love for Karl Human )
Is he a registerd outfitter ? or is he a P.H that is trying to fast track his career by offering "Deals on the side" to people he is or has guided. He might be a P.H , but does he have an outfitters licence etc and "Borrowing" concessions etc. would like to know who it is if possible. Dont like a dirty house

leopards,

the boy claims to be a ph and an outfitter. I have no way of knowing for sure but when directly asked he has refused to answer me. on his website he had a link to verify his credentials but when I clicked on it ,it was disabled.

he has implied he has land thru his internet postings, but he later admitted he has exactly none. no facilities. I have his posting documented.

trust me ! I am bursting to expose this boy for what he is. time is almost there.

I promise to do my part to clean up the dirty house. my report will be timed to ensure that you and every other p.h. and safari outfitter in south africa will have time to weigh in with nature conservation and your minister of tourism.

he has directly and indirectly cost all of us involved in the industry.

as a courtesy i'll send u a pm shortly.

pig

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:


The only other group of "professionals" that want money up front are lawyers - not exactly the most respected profession. If I tried to bill my clients ahead of time they simply wouldn't do business with me. In the real world, you are lucky to get 30 day terms. Real businesses are expected to have sufficient capital to fund their needs without asking for upfront payment.

In terms of lawyers, I only deal those that treat me like a business, ie, you do the work, then invoice me, and I pay it.

quote:

Originally posted by kevin henderson:
Lots of good advice and info in this thread. As a young lawyer I learned that you don't really understand contracts or how to write them until you have to go to court on one. As an older lawyer I've come to realize that a crook will take your money no matter what the contract says and with an honest man you don't need a contract. I've also found that the situation that is causing the dispute is always the one thing that isn't covered in the contract.

All that said, I like to put things in writing so I don't forget them.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

The only other group of "professionals" that want money up front are lawyers - not exactly the most respected profession. If I tried to bill my clients ahead of time they simply wouldn't do business with me. In the real world, you are lucky to get 30 day terms. Real businesses are expected to have sufficient capital to fund their needs without asking for upfront payment.

In terms of lawyers, I only deal those that treat me like a business, ie, you do the work, then invoice me, and I pay it.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

The only other group of "professionals" that want money up front are lawyers - not exactly the most respected profession. If I tried to bill my clients ahead of time they simply wouldn't do business with me. In the real world, you are lucky to get 30 day terms. Real businesses are expected to have sufficient capital to fund their needs without asking for upfront payment.

In terms of lawyers, I only deal those that treat me like a business, ie, you do the work, then invoice me, and I pay it.

Do you pay for your airfare when you reach the destination too?

The largest amount I lost on a no-show client was $6,000 - he had trouble at his hhome airport and decided to cut his losses and stay home. I had paid for everything - tags, staff, supplies, everything. I recovered what I could but was still was short $6,000. Very difficult to sue someone for that amount offshore and expect to come out in front.

Trust - It works both ways between outfitter and client.

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
I personally have to many sad stories and expensive lessons in this hunting game,

Most of them around this point,

I see this in 2 ways,

Hunts where you pay a high day rate with lower prices on the trophy fees

And hunts where you are buying expensive animals with low day rates,

In the first case I believe a client must be paid up in full on his day rates before the safari starts, if it is a new client I will have him pay in full for his extras on completion of the safari.

With old repeat clients I have no issue with them doing a EFT once they home.

When you are selling expensive hunts like Rhino I will want full payment on the trophy fee before the safari starts,

Here the day rates are so low that they are a negligible amount and will be paid up front as well.

When I personally go hunting I prefer to be 100% paid up before I even leave home as I hate carrying cash,

I would rather be in a situation that I have a credit at the end of the Safari than being in a position where someone is waiting on me to pay.

I have never been in a situation that I have struggled to get my monies back if I was in credit after a safari,

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

The client can for example go home to find his wife has bugged out with all the money & furniture whilst he's been gone or he can get home to find his business has collapsed and he's temporarily in the kak financially or he can even croak on the flight home.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I have faithfully and promptly transferred funds after returning back home with some very big outfits and even some smaller ones and have never had one single issue. I inevitably give them the name and details of my accountant and tell them that IF the plane crashes or I somehow die, to contact him and request payment in full. I believe that I stand a greater chance dying while driving and being with them than flying home on Delta. Trust is as Trust earned. But not across the board with just anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Depends on how you have your estate set up. The trustee of my trust will have the ability to pay any debts deemed necessary to be paid without any court intervention, since a trust avoids probate and there are no freezing of assets that are part of and in the trust. So, the accountant goes to the trustee, presents the invoices and they get paid. The other thing to remember is that Trust goes both ways. Trust that the deposit we are giving you will actually be credited, not spent and you are nowhere to be found, have filed for insolvency, are in jail on criminal charges for poaching rhino, or that you "Are not robbing Peter to pay Paul". Like I said, Trust is as Trust earned.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
For me it was trophy fees for extra animals PH had and I was willing to go after. Original hunts were always paid up front even the trophy fees.
Sorry I should have specified that.
I think hunting in foreign lands, use caution, but if you do your homework and references, I don't mind trusting people. I don't wanna live in some kinda state of fear, that something is gonna go wrong.
As simple as that. If it does, then I deal with it.
Just like any other business.
When I do project, I finish it and then I bill client. Period, and I trust them.
And Yes I have been taken and not paid. But rarely and that's the price we all pay for working for ourselves and our business.