How do you assure that the deposit paid for hunting not "disappear"?
I'm a little uncomfortable with pay ex usd 5000 - in advance to a guy I not know. He could go bankrupt or just disappear ...... How do you do it?

One of the great benefits of this forum is that you don't have to pay anyone who you don't "know".... with a caveat, somewhat on the "know".

Accurate Reloading is an asset through which you can learn of others' experiences: the good, the bad, the agents and P.H.'s who go the extra mile, the controversial (not always a reason to avoid), the glory hogs, etc. You certainly will read detailed reports of great (and not-so-great) experiences here and tailor your safari to include stuff you think you'll enjoy, too.

All you have to do is a bit of fun research here, send some P.M.'s, plan a trip to SCI or Dallas, see (face to face) who is badmouthing an outfit or who has truly had a bad experience (and not just a self-imposed botched up safari), who is experienced enough to give valid advice or who is a one-trip wonder and know-it-all or just a "star f----r" .

I imagine that I receive two or three calls (and more emails and P.M.'s) from prospective pilgrims each month asking about some of my experiences and I doubt that I'm in unusual among those who post here and who have been on multiple safaris. I also talk to guys who post here about their last safari, warts and all, and, since I know and trust them, it all adds to my bank of "knowing" to whom I'm sending money if I decide to try a new experience.

Just be prepared to evaluate the guy reporting the experience, too. Some have financial motivations (They make a living selling their services and we have some of the best and most honest of those, too), some have bones to pick even though their problems are self induced and most are fine folks who just want to help a guy enjoy Africa.

Read, search the various threads, don't be afraid to use the P.H.'s or agent's name and best of all, go to a show and meet us and them.

Finally, if you still have fears about your deposit, often times an agent will hold monies in escrow until some triggering event. Remember that putting on a safari is expensive for the P.H., he must expend lots of funds in advance for you, has blocked off dates that may not be "re-saleable", etc. He's at risk if you change your mind.... or why would he ask for the deposit?

Cutting to the chase, sending money is based primarily on trust. Contracts are nice to have, of course, but a P.H. can't sue you from Africa very easily (or even from Kansas to Florida if an agent, even) and vice versa. That's why it is so important to deal with those who you, let's say, "vicariously" know because of their reputations here.

I could name you 30 outfits with which I'd send (and have sent) tens of thousands of bucks with little worry. Just ask me or some of the AR guys. We'll help.

A quick example. I got an email from a AR member with a link to a contest that purported to give away a safari in SA. I entered on a whim and dadgum if I didn't win. It only took a couple of P.M.'s to P.H.'s I've met at Dallas, a couple of phone calls to AR friends and I happily discovered that the outfit was for real and I really won a valid contest, not a bait and switch. I sure did ease my mind to so discover.... and the threat to my pocket book... when I shelled out several grand for tickets.

Just remember, no one here is an insurer of your money. You can buy a policy for that, I reckon, but AR is, IMHO, the best vehicle out there to find the truth before risking your money.

Use it and take a big, deep breath and anticipate Africa.

A friend of mine from Winnipeg put down $25,000 on an elephant hunt, and lost it all. The guy went out of business.

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
A friend of mine from Winnipeg put down $25,000 on an elephant hunt, and lost it all. The guy went out of business.

This is the sort of thing we like to hear about.

Just in case the guilty party starts a hew company to do exactly the same thing.

It has happened here and they were exposed.

My friend the Judge has given you very good advice.

For over 30 years, I have paid not just deposits, but the full cost of the safari.

Sometimes I have exceeded my payment, and as trust goes both ways, I have paid whatever I owe after I have returned home.

There was never a question of anyone being cheated.

99.9% of the people involved in the safari business are honest straight forward people.

And, Saeed, my friend.... the safari world would be a bit more risky for us pilgrims without your selfless contribution.

Thanks, kind host!

Sth,

Some Cancellation insurance policies cover bankruptcy. Plus it's just a good idea all around anyway.

There are things you can do to minimize the risk, but in the end, no matter who you book with there is a slight risk. Do your homework. Ask questions and make educated decisions on who to spend your money with.

BTW, sth:

I'll give you a hint. The above poster is one of the good guys. I'd send him a deposit and never worry about it... so long as I upheld my part of the bargain, I know he'd do right by me.

Also, a reminder that AR does not accept adverts from anyone.

A good reason for facts about outfitters and PHs to be posted, and not governed by the fact that only those who advertise get good reports, as sometimes happens on commercial sites.

Deposits are one advantages of a booking agent.

I have often paid the deposit to the booking agent and even paid an estimated total amount a booking agent.

The booking agent held the money until the hunt was complete.

When the hunt was complete, I emailed the booking agent and had him release the funds right in front of the safari operator.

Excellent advice above. Do your due diligence and proceed on the assumption and with the confidence that all will be okay 99% of the time.

That said, I do think there are some people that are just not cut out for an African safari. If you are going to hunt in Africa, you have to accept that there is a limit to how much you can plan for, develop contingency plans to address, etc. For some, I think that they are just incapable of not sweating every last detail. Then the trip planning and trip itself become an ordeal and not a rich and rewarding experience. For those, I really wonder if on balance they ought to pull back to something more modest, more predictable and at least enjoy it. I think most of us have a threshold for disorder, chaos, unpredictability and the like and we are good to recognize that fact and work within it. For example, Aaron's recent hunt to Pakistan that was on Trijicon's World of Sports Afield. That hunt would likely exceed my comfort zone. So I would rather focus on things that are within my comfort zone that I can enjoy and not have to fret over. By the same token, my comfort zone, which included hunting in Zim two weeks before the last elections, undoubtedly was more than others would be comfortable with. For each of us that zone is different.

Bottom line, occasionally you will see someone posting that seems to be wringing their hands over every little detail. If that is the case, and you have reached a point of diminishing returns in terms of enjoyment of the experience, then perhaps the person would be better served to just consider doing something else.

quote:

Originally posted by sth:
How do you assure that the deposit paid for hunting not "disappear"?
I'm a little uncomfortable with pay ex usd 5000 - in advance to a guy I not know. He could go bankrupt or just disappear ...... How do you do it?

It is only natural to feel this way.This feeling however comes from being new to safari hunting and from not following the whole safari hunting scenario.
Chances are you will not lose the deposit if you book with any of the reputable companies.I would beware of bargains offered by shady outfitters.

The first time I hunted with Jan du Plessis at Sebra Safaris in Namibia I wired the minimum amount required for a deposit. Having hunted with him in 2012 and having a fabulous time I wired him full payment for my daily rate plus a chunk of change toward my trophy fees. I knew he could use the money up front and I needed to carry that much less cash when I went back in May 2013.When I go back in 2015 I'll wire even more for trophy fees in advance- I trust Jan 100% with my money.

I recommend you begin with a less expensive hunt, perhaps Namibia or South Africa, where you can get a lot of plains game on a less expensive hunt. The deposit or full cost of the hunt will not comprise as large a financial risk. Trophy fees may exceed the cost of the hunt but are payable at the conclusion of the hunt where, hopefully, you are delighted with the outcome and remit without hesitation.

The risk at that point will be successful collection of your trophies. Insure that event with many pictures in case of a no show or poor trophy handling. I have too much experience with the latter from Zimbabwe;eland,zebra,bushbuck,Cape buffalo and kudu over three of five hunts. Namibia twice and South Africa once have been perfect.

Africa certainly does not have the level of reliability we enjoy in the USA and that must be accepted. When circumstances do change those hunt operators with integrity will ensure you are advised ASAP so you do not have to ask. Start with the well established operators, as discussed here, and then perhaps migrate to someone newer who may be even better than the high profile operators. Cal Pappas made just such an endorsement recently.
Good luck and good hunting.

I share your concern. Thus, I hunt with people I know. I know where they live -- I know their wives. Really relieves the anxiety of sending them a wire for tens of thousands of dollars.

Here is another piece of advice.

Do your research, pick whoever you wish to hunt with, then ask about them here.

If there are any flies on them, it will come out.

Hands down AR is a great place to learn about anyone offering hunting services in Africa (or anywhere else in the world).

If one can parse through the information here or pm some regular contributors one can get a tremendous amount of information. There may be some back and forth between members but the amount of information here is encyclopedic.

Either develop a personal relationship with the outfitter in question, or really do your homework on the references if it is someone you don't know. Like previously posted, AR is the best reference check out there.

Use a booking agent or figure out a proper way to reserve some part of the payment until the sucessful completion of your hunt. Get a travel insurance policy to cover your loss, if something unforseen happens.

If you can afford to spend it on a hunt, it is disposable money anyway. Would be missed but wouldn't kill you if you lost it.

This is a a great Thread, fine question that needed to be asked where it can be discussed by those that KNOW the details and have been there.

Saeed, JudgeG, RickT and others that have been. I'd like to ask you folks to start another thread with details on what to expect in the way of costs so those of us that have no clues have a way to judge whether we can even plan such a hunt someday.

Re: hunt costs for certain animals, trophy fee's and such other things as need to be known ahead of time. What about bait animals, are you charged for those too? If so, about how much etc?
What amount do you fellows pass out as tips needs to be covered too as that can amount to a sizable amount. For me and I'm sure many others a hunt like this would be as big an expense as buying a house (well maybe not these days!)

Many thanks,
George

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Deposits are one advantages of a booking agent.

No offense to anyone, because I have used agents who post here and had nothing but good experiences, but GENERALLY I trust a well-researched outfitter much more than I trust an agent. Further, don't kid yourself...if you pay a US agent and he goes bust or mis-allocates your funds in some some way, you will have a nearly impossible time getting paid. Sue all you want but it will absolutely cost more than $5000 to recover $5000 lost. Also remember that, in the event of conflict between you and the outfitter, even big agents will usually have a tendency to side with the outfitter. The outfitter represents an ongoing source of revenue and you usually represent a one-shot deal. Remember these things and choose your agent and outfitters wisely. As I said before, there are exceptions to these rules and most post here on AR.

JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Excellent advice above. Do your due diligence and proceed on the assumption and with the confidence that all will be okay 99% of the time.

That said, I do think there are some people that are just not cut out for an African safari. If you are going to hunt in Africa, you have to accept that there is a limit to how much you can plan for, develop contingency plans to address, etc. For some, I think that they are just incapable of not sweating every last detail. Then the trip planning and trip itself become an ordeal and not a rich and rewarding experience. For those, I really wonder if on balance they ought to pull back to something more modest, more predictable and at least enjoy it. I think most of us have a threshold for disorder, chaos, unpredictability and the like and we are good to recognize that fact and work within it. For example, Aaron's recent hunt to Pakistan that was on Trijicon's World of Sports Afield. That hunt would likely exceed my comfort zone. So I would rather focus on things that are within my comfort zone that I can enjoy and not have to fret over. By the same token, my comfort zone, which included hunting in Zim two weeks before the last elections, undoubtedly was more than others would be comfortable with. For each of us that zone is different.

Bottom line, occasionally you will see someone posting that seems to be wringing their hands over every little detail. If that is the case, and you have reached a point of diminishing returns in terms of enjoyment of the experience, then perhaps the person would be better served to just consider doing something else.

Apart from the advice to OP - good thinking, Mike.

MJines,

Very well said. You have to go with the flow and make a plan as you go sometimes.

Many of my hunts are sold on a handshake. The way it it used to be.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Many of my hunts are sold on a handshake. The way it it used to be.

And that is how it should be.

Though things have changed a lot with computers, emails, etc. etc. in the last 20 years or so this still remains true. A good wise friend once told me " If a man's handshake is no good can you imagine what his papers worth ? "

Handshake deals are fine just as long as both parties are honourable and nothing goes wrong but let's not forget that not everyone is honourable and even when they are, things can go wrong and there can be disputes about who may or may not be to blame.

Personally, I'd rather put my faith in a contract that details all responsibilities and costs etc just in case.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
A friend of mine from Winnipeg put down $25,000 on an elephant hunt, and lost it all. The guy went out of business.

99.9% of the people involved in the safari business are honest straight forward people.

I wish this were true, but even in my limited experience, I've found this to be far from correct. Thankfully, AR provides an excellent resource for properly checking out operators beyond using their "references" or relying upon Safari "Clubs" (they're really major businesses and don't provide anywhere near the support for regular members that most people expect) when conducting research for an expensive hunt. I've met far too many hunters (including professionals) that have been ripped off by unscrupulous outfitters. The assurance that a "man's handshake or word is his bond" has been disproved time and time again. Some of us here can afford to write off thousands of dollars lost as "That's Africa!", but many of us can't, won't, and shouldn't be expected to.

As mentioned earlier, the legal issues involved are extremely complex because where the contract is signed, where the funds are sent, where the hunt is scheduled to take place and where the parties reside, might all be located in different countries. That's why research and documentation (keep copies of all email correspondences) are so important. If you have any doubts about doing business with someone because they see "too good to be true", it's probably because they aren't. There's a lot that could be done to better protect hunters from those eager to rip them off, starting with a greater willingness of organizations like DSC and SCI to stand up for their members. (Take a moment to read DSC's statement on "Ethics" and note what's not said about conduct like ripping off clients. Even contacting members of the Ethics Committee or attempting to file an complaint is an exercise in futility. With SCI, you're charged a healthy price just to file a complaint!)

Forums like this are an excellent means of communicating with others who have similar interests in hunting Africa and have similar concerns about such sizable expenditures of funds to do so. We should also do more together to protect ourselves from the predators among us, because they do exist. When jurisdictional issues make legal actions problematic and organizations that should offer at least administrative remedies fail to provide them, the use of resources like this and other forums can be extremely helpful. We can compare notes and work together to spread the word.

you can get rip off in the state just has easy. at least i have. i learn to do your research before you pick who your going with. ask around and usually some one will tell you if you can trust who you are thinking about going with.

quote:

Originally posted by leeb441:
you can get rip off in the state just has easy. at least i have. i learn to do your research before you pick who your going with. ask around and usually some one will tell you if you can trust who you are thinking about going with.

I agree that getting ripped off in the U.S. is also a possibility, but there's a couple of important differences:
1) The legal jurisdiction issues aren't as complex since at least you're dealing with a matter that occurred in the your own country (if not state).
2) The possible financial losses involved probably won't be as great here, when compared to the major expenses associated with a hunt overseas.

Unfortunately, "research" alone won't prevent many of the kinds of potential abuses that occur. But at least checking into outfitters with fellow AR members can provide valuable information. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have made such connections and I'm very grateful for the personal assistance provided by fellow members.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Many of my hunts are sold on a handshake. The way it it used to be.

And that is how it should be.

+1 Saeed...+1!!!

When it gets to the point that I have to have a contract and hire Mike or Will to go thru it for me...I'll put my .375, .458, and .500 on on Gunbroker. No offense Will and Mike...I have good friends who are attorneys and deal with them all the time at work...that's why I go hunting!

Some of us who have been dealing with this sort of thing for years wonder what the hell has happened to world.

31 years ago I decided to go hunting.

I was in Seattle, Washington.

I went to Klinebergers, they arranged the hunt for me with people I never even heard of.

I paid a small deposit, went hunting, paid the rest at the end of the hunt.

10 years later, I wanted to hunt with the same people.

I called them on the phone, and said I wanted to book a hunt for that years.

We agreed on a date, and I asked what do I need do.

I was told to come and hunt, and pay at the end of my hunt.

30 odd years later, I am still hunting with the same family.

I prefer to pay my dues in advance - this amounts to several hundreds thousands of dollars a year, as I prefer to pay for the trophy fees in advance too.

I never ask for a contract, and I was never asked to signed one.

I finish my hunt and go home.

Sometimes later I get a statement, informing me that I either have some money left, or I have to some money to pay.

Very easy really when you deal with honest and honorable people.

A category I would put most of those involved in hunting fall into.

It is THAT one odd crook we have to watch for.

I have very limited faith in contracts. A scoundrel is a scoundrel and the odds of collecting are too small and the costs of collecting too high in the event of problem. Get references and you may be ok. And yea I've been stiffed before.

I have a sample of one safari. But I have spent time with the PH/outfitter for years. And the best reference he needed was my wife. She is the best judge of character I have ever known. And has never been wrong. He ate numerous dinners at my table while he is here for the shows. Last time he was here we agreed on when I was coming...talked about the money and told him when I would have access to the $$ and could get a deposit to him. His words were: if you tell me you are coming, I don't need a deposit. We'll settle when you're done. I asked him before I left if he needed $$ and was told the same thing. So off I went and had a great time. Last day we agreed on the amount and as we agreed, I got his US bank info and went home. Next day I went to local branch of his bank with a check and he had his $$. All done on a handshake and trust. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat! Any one needing a referral for a PG hunt in Limpopo call me. I will go back. Soon.

I have been spoiled. I hunt with the Whittalls.

quote:

Originally posted by ftg767:
I have a sample of one safari. But I have spent time with the PH/outfitter for years. And the best reference he needed was my wife. She is the best judge of character I have ever known. And has never been wrong. He ate numerous dinners at my table while he is here for the shows. Last time he was here we agreed on when I was coming...talked about the money and told him when I would have access to the $$ and could get a deposit to him. His words were: if you tell me you are coming, I don't need a deposit. We'll settle when you're done. I asked him before I left if he needed $$ and was told the same thing. So off I went and had a great time. Last day we agreed on the amount and as we agreed, I got his US bank info and went home. Next day I went to local branch of his bank with a check and he had his $$. All done on a handshake and trust. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat! Any one needing a referral for a PG hunt in Limpopo call me. I will go back. Soon.

Booking hunts on a handshake and trust works great in an ideal world...

But I was wondering how many clients who pay their Outfitters when they're back home as opposed to directly after the hunt have a contingency plan in place for in case they don't make it home.

It is not only about trust but rather about the unexpected.

Last year a client spent a considerable amount of money with me on a hunt for him and his daughter. I got paid in full before they left... Fortunately! Because a couple of weeks later he sadly lost his life as result of a heart attack. Nobody (him least of all) could have foreseen this. He was a healthy guy same age as me. Question arises what would have happened if the same client left on a handshake with the promise to pay later and had that heart attack on the airplane? Contacting his wife while still in mourning for the outstanding monies would not have been pleasant for either of us...

I believe in due diligence and contracts.

Due diligence has never been easier than it is now in the electronic age. I always use every reasonable means to investigate an outfitter's business experience and reputation and check personal references beforehand, unless I already know the outfitter and trust him.

Contracts are important if for no other reason than to memorialize the key terms of the agreement, and avoid misunderstandings.

I know that without a contract, I would not remember how much I agreed to pay, when I agreed to pay it, or even when I was supposed to show up!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Contracts are important if for no other reason than to memorialize the key terms of the agreement, and avoid misunderstandings.

Spot on.

it's always a leap of faith to send big dollars to a 3rd world country.

I have had a deposit stolen by a shit outfitter who posts here on accurate reloading.

the BOY is the second shit outfitter I've been scammed by in south Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer:
it's always a leap of faith to send big dollars to a 3rd world country.

I have had a deposit stolen by a shit outfitter who posts here on accurate reloading.

the BOY is the second shit outfitter I've been scammed by in south Africa.

Two crummy/thief outfitters and a crummy/thief taxidermist . . . I would change the way I go about lining up hunts and taxidermy work. That just sounds more than coincidental.

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer:
it's always a leap of faith to send big dollars to a 3rd world country.

I have had a deposit stolen by a shit outfitter who posts here on accurate reloading.

the BOY is the second shit outfitter I've been scammed by in south Africa.

Could you please name them?

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Contracts are important if for no other reason than to memorialize the key terms of the agreement, and avoid misunderstandings.

Spot on.

Have to agree, My contracts are more for the "New" African hunters piece of mind than anything else. I send it over to him he reads through it and sends it back to me.If he is happy he can send me a deposit.
First night in camp we go through it together and if hes still happy or if we need to amend it I do and then I sign it, and give it him.