The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting How important is a traditional kit to your enjoyment of the safari?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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The recent discussions on double rifles, Coutney boots etc. has made be wonder how important all the trappings really are in the whole "Safari" expereience. I'd be interested in anyone's comments on how much all the correct gear really matter to them. To me it matters not at all as I'm happy with non-safari cotton clothing, Rocky boots, a stainless/synthetic bolt gun in a common caliber and a Uncle Mike's cartridge carrier on the butt of my rifle. To me these items only make sense as they leave me more money for trophy fees. I'd be very interested in others comments that see the traditional gear as almost necessary. I am not trying to instigate a pissing match. I just don't get it. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | ||
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Let me go back 60years for 15 days or so. At least as much as practical. Until I get hurt, then it's right back to the present with quickclot and helo's. | |||
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I don't get it either, but to each, his own I guess. ______________________ Age and Treachery Will Always Overcome Youth and Skill | |||
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I bought Courtney boots because they are light weight, I like their looks, and I could get the custom made for a reasonable price and I have a 12 1/2 EEEE foot. All that other stuff...I don't get... I love the posts that start... "Want to buy best quality leather cartridge holder" Certainly need that special cartridge holder for Africa versus Montana. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I find that I take less and less gear the more Safaris that I go on. I found that most of what I was taking was seldom if ever used. Somethings have proven very useful. My Westley Richards cartridge belt is so much more comfortable than a nylon cartridge holder that it will always accompany me when I take a double. Also Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner has saved me hours of barrel cleaning time. Comfortable shoes that are well broken in also contribute a lot to my enjoyment and comfort on the elephant track. 465H&H | |||
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Interesting thoughts. I usually go with what works best. Most of what you call "proper kit" just may have proven to be best over time. As for the warm weather boots, finding aize 15 E is a real problem Courtney was easy to come by. In the firearm department, no doubt stainless/synthetic is best for wet environments, but in my case, call it what you want, it ain't going to happen. Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Clearly the trappings are important to some people - just look at the interest in doubles - a bolt gun is more efficient killer, but people take doubles anyway. Hey, it is their hunt. I do like a leather cartridge belt. And I do like the wood stock on my .416, but I don't think I am giving up much. It always keeps it zero, the wood increases weight some, and it doesn't make funny noises when brush and limbs smack it. I am certainly not a tradionalist - I own mostly Rem 700s with synthetic stocks. | |||
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Geeeez...size 12 1/2 EEEE, size 15E???? How do your trackers tell the Elephant prints from yours! :-) | |||
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Hate plastic guns and nylon web gear. I like wood and blued guns, I shoot primarily stock Model 70s and Weatherbys and my Courtneys cost me 125 bucks in Bulawayo. I like good binos, my guys gave me a pair of Swaro SLCs when I left my last ship and most of my rifles sport Leupold scopes although I do have and enjoy some Swarovkis. I wear cotton shorts and shirts from Cabelas. Oh and I also don't like ball caps. Oh and if I could afford a double, I'd buy one, fully recognizong it's limitations. I suppose you can call me a traditionalist, but what's wrong with that? jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Mark - Could not agree more. I use the same uncle Mike's bullet holder on the butt of my gun too! Plus Under Armour t-shirts, cross trainers, and a $700.00 Remington 700 in .375 RUM with a 2.5x10 Nikon that some guy here on AR called a varmint scope, when he saw me on Bone Collectors shoot a Botswana elephant with it. Man, guys like you and I need the money for hunts. My cheap gun kills em just as dead! Aaron Neilson | |||
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I prefer traditional classic in what ever gear I buy. Have seen a guy loose a day of his Safari due to cheep boots (luckily I convinced him to buy a pair of Courteneys and had them new in camp, which he still uses eight years on). OK, he probably lost half a day but how much is a day of a BG hunt worth? I have seen my Uncle Mikes pouch fall apart  Ahh Synthetics. Most of these synthetic items are now made in China and lord knows I by my share of goods from them but when it comes to my passion, now that's a different story. Well heck the Traditional quality gear just lasts longer and IMO works better too. I dislike the feel and the noise a synthetic stock makes. Years back I can remember on a hunt to New Caledonia watching a hunter miles away with his shiny stainless Barrel waving about  .Yes I do enjoy good quality classic Kit and really, other than a double rifle It doesn't really add to a huge expense for me as from Aus you are limited to 20kgs of Luggage so you tend to limit what you take . | |||
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  Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Mark- I'm not into doubles as they just can't measure up to the long shots that I take in the Cascades. I tailor my kit to me and tradition has nothing to do with my practicality. I shoot Model 70's and carry my Randall. My boots are the best for me and that is what is important to me. I tailor my kit to me and not tradition. I do like leather for my cartridge belt and wood for my guns but do have a composite on my 375 cause it rains alot in Wa. but intend on wood for my next trip over the pond. I'm sure you and I could share the same campfire with no problems! The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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I agree Mark, I use the highest quality gear I can afford without concern for tradition. Would I like to have a double? Sure! But if I could use the money to go on another safari instead, I'll take another hunt any day. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Folks, Interesting so far. I really expected more comments favoring an all traditional or at least the picture of an all traditional kit. I also really expected folks to be quite crtitical of my personal choices that are far from Africa "cool". Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I go with what works and what fits, in both cases for me - and me alone. Some of the so-called traditional stuff does, but a lot of it doesn't. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I was thinking a bit more on my answer (the 60 year thing) and on what gear I actually use on trips. As it turns out upon closer inspection you will find much of my gear is from our friends at Texas Hunt Co. My knife still has the 60 year look to it though  So while I walk around in my mind 60 years back with Teddy and Kermit... the reality of my kit is new peformance gear. Now if THC would start making some leather gear I would have to buy all new stuff yet again. | |||
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Mark: It would appear that I will be among the minority here, but I appreciate where you are going with your question. For some of us, hunting on safari in Africa is the culmination of a lifetime of dreaming – and saving – so as to experience something that is far more than a hunt. It is a childhood dream fulfilled, one that represents our longing to actually relive the mystery and history that only the Africa of antiquity can conjure for us. For many I’m sure, hunting in Africa is simply a remote version of hunting anywhere else, Alaska or Kansas or wherever. But for others of us, perhaps of a certain age I suspect, there is an undeniable romance to safari: a host of classic and time-honed images indelibly etched in our mind’s eye that hearken back to the books by Nyschens, Hunter, Roosevelt, Bell, and so many others. We want to relive - if but for a brief snapshot in time - those bygone days. For me ‘safari’ conjures up an undeniable obligation of tradition; a preparedness to dispense with certain ‘modernities’ and reaching back instead to the khaki and canvas of ‘old Africa’. Yes, for me that means a double rifle for dangerous game; khaki instead of camouflage; cotton instead of nylon; Courteney's instead of high-top sneakers. And please, as my PH leave the ‘Budweiser’ nylon ball cap back at camp. I want you to look like an African PH, not a backwoods hunting guide standing ready with a pack of 'coon hounds. It boils down to this: For my safari I’m looking for something more than a trophy; I’m looking for an experience. And tradition is an important part of that experience. Hunting dangerous game is, in itself, an anachronistic pursuit. So, no matter the practicality of it all, give me epaulets or give me death! Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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KPETE I couldn't have said it better myself | |||
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I like the traditional Safari Kit for the pure comfort of 100% high quality cotton. While the look is less important, the traditional kit fit and comfort make the hunt that much better. I would not wear the same kit on a costal brown bear hunt in Alaska! Jim | |||
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I'm 50/50 on this one.. Like the DRs and bolts with nice wood, but am not opposed to take a syn to Africa either if the need arises. Dont need Courtneys on my feet.. 80% of the time I wear Keen sandels when hunting over there. Like light weight syn fabric shirts from Columbia or the sorts, not the old heavy cotton types.. Also like hunting in shorts most of the time while there. To each his own on this one.. | |||
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I haven't been to Africa yet, but I'm with KPete on this one. I could've gone by now, but wanted to do it with a double rifle. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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My safari kit is the exact same kit I use to hunt S. Texas for white tails and hogs. Exactly the same. Wood stocked 30-06 rifle, nylon Uncle Mikes belt slide cartridge holder, earth tone cotton pants and shirts from Bass Pro, and sneaker style hikiing boots from Academy Sports and Outdoors, and a wide brim canvas hat from REI. I would really like to get a couple of two-tone PH shirts though. Elephant Hunter, Double Rifle Shooter Society, NRA Lifetime Member, Ten Safaris, in RSA, Namibia, Zimbabwe | |||
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For me it is all about functionality. I want the clothing and gear that performs the best in the field. If that means traditional kit, then fine...if it means more contemporary gear that is okay too. Go Duke!! | |||
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When I got back from my first elk hunt, I realized it was like being 5 years old again, except with real horses, real guns and real elk. (OK, I know this is an African Hunt forum, but the point is the same) Last year I went on a fly-in moose hunt in Newfoundland . It was like the stuff I read about when I was 10 - guys in checked wool shirts and boots loading gear into float planes, and guides calling in moose. I am hoping to go on my first African safari in the next year or so. You can't bring the meat back, and most of our friends will not be impressed by whatever I hang on the walls. But the chance to be FC Selous for a week or so is what is driving me over there. Liberals believe that criminals are just like them and guns cause crimes. Conservatives believe criminals are different and that it is the criminals that cause crimes. Maybe both are right and the solution is to keep guns away from liberals. | |||
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Mark Interesting post and I concur on this one with you - and I think you know my philosophy on this. A safari is not a fashion parade and no one really cares what you wear, as long as it does not scare away the animals, you feel good wearing it and it does not become a nuisance to other hunters. Any shoes are good if you are comfortable with them and the are "quiet". Some shoes just make too much noise! For us, the Courtneys are just the boot that works very well as it is super comfortable, goes the distance, is strong and very quiet. For us over here, Courtneys are an every-day item so I don't view that as anything traditional and it really has no snob value. As far as the synthetic stocks and stainless steel rifles go - these are great and they work very well for us, especially in Mozambique. All my PHs use such rifles. We get the odd hunter from time to time that wants to hunt with some "special" (often old) rifle and that very often is associated with problems involving poorly made custom ammo, shaky and worn-out mechanisms, ill-fitting scopes and so on. Others hunt with rifles that are worth more than 3 times what the safari costs. Functionality is important ... but whatever makes you happy is what you do. I personally like some standards to be maintained, if only for some of the "proper old fashioned" safari atmosphere - but except for the odd loud T-shirt, most hunters conform. Johan | |||
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I think it adds to the ambiance to some degree, but I stop short of pith helmets! You all have my permission to kick my butt if I ever wear one!!!! Call it a standing order! Seriously though you could argue that the classic tented camp that many of us know, love, and wouldn't trade for anything is part of the "traditional kit" or the ambiance of safari. I know I feel it is. I think to some degree as well it depends on why we got into safari hunting. Perhaps if it was just because you always had a hankering to shoot a cape buffalo after reading O'Connor or Kieth then the traditional style may not matter a bit. For people like me who grew up reading the African greats telling their tails of hunting and adventure in East Africa it takes on something more that just a quest to hunt a buffalo, lion, or leopard. The lore of safari and a bit of the old school go a long way to make a safari more than just another hunt to me. Of course there's no right or wrong way. To each their own. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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African climate and terrain is a lot like some areas of Australia so what works here often works over there. I belieive you can get the same quality and just as effective gear for a much cheaper price without a brand label on it. | |||
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Great topic, Mark!  Good responses, too! I'm glad there are people with so varying tastes posting here. For me it's also about the experience - but reality kicks in and I have to go with what I have. In honesty, my desire for comfort is such that I wouldn't really want to do a full-out safari in the old style w/o some modern comformities. I mean want want; if offered the opportunity, I'd take it in a heartbeat! It's about personal preferences. My preference is comfort; a good hunt; good trophies (not in that order), and to get the trophies I need to cut the costs a bit here and there. As to preferences - I'm hoping to execute a safari in Namibia in the autumn of 2010 tagging along my Winchester lever action; so as not to need to rent the outfitter's gun as I did in Zim. - Lars/Finland A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot | |||
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Quality, functionality and comfort help with the success of a valuable Safari. Its amazing how well things work that where designed so many years ago and often they are better than their modern counterparts. | |||
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Mark, I am also 50/50 on this. I use my traditional double rifle when its a good fit but have no problem hunting with my synthetic stocked Bansner bolt rifle when appropriate.My clothes are a mixture of cotton and new age Under Armor type stuff.I like a wide brim cotton hat and found one at a local market for cheap and it served me well on numerous safaris. I will pick up a pair of Courtneys on my next trip if I can find them just because I think they look good and I have several friends that wear them every day and love them.Currently 90% of my hunting in Africa has been done in Rocport ankle high hiking style boots because they are quiet and comfortable as hell.I too use an Uncle Mike's butt stock ammo holder and it has served its purpose well,however with my double I use a traditional waist style cartridge holder on a belt I found in an estate an it fit me. For the true puriest I would love to see them try an Alaskan hunt with the kit that was recomended back in the 50-60's instead of the new age materials available LOL. Wesley | |||
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KPete, you said it much better than I was going to. While it's true we can't go back to Robert Ruark's or Roosevelt's Africa, a tiny part of us can. I like the combination of words "obligation of tradition." Of course, I still wear Filson wool bibs when I hunt Minnesota white tail. My first RSA plains game hunt involved an HS Precision synthetic stocked rifle and a ball cap. Since African hunting has captivated me so over the last ten years, I find my kit becoming more and more traditional. I haven't yet decided whether I think I'm Ruark, Bell, or Roosevelt. Perhaps I think I'm Walter Mitty. | |||
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tradition and nostalgia are wonderful...I just find it hilarious when folks try to justify it as something else...like insisting $70 cartridge holder is somehow 7 times more functional than a $10 one... if it's pride of ownership just say so but don't berate the other stuff... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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This from a man who uses a single action colt clone as a avitar!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Adam certainly there is an element of nostalgia that goes along with the acquiring of a double rifle for a safari rifle, especially with folks who specialize on elephant hunting. I think also the use of clothing, and shoes that the people who live there use when hunting game only makes sense. The people who live there and are in the bush professionally have found that the type of clothing and shoes they use work well for their type of hunting. I can remember when folks all wore red plaid wool in the hunting fields of the USA, and used Rocky boots with Vibram soles when sheep hunting in the high mountains, because for no other reason than they worked. I see the point of using the things that work well enough to save money for another trophy fee, but the taking of African animals is after all, a nostalgic affair to begin with, for anyone who was not born in Africa. In fact hunting it's self is a nostalgic afire because it was originally a necessity, not a vacation. So I guess what I'm trying to say is we are all in a dream world when it comes to hunting in general, and African hunting in particular. So if the use of a certain kind of rifle, or wearing a certain kind of cloths enhances the Safari experience, then why not. It seems to me that is the whole point of SAFARI HUNTING! ........................ ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Could not help myself, but since when has Courtney boots become traditional African Hunting gear? | |||
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Ever since this happened: http://www.courteneyboot.com/c...ney_adventure_us.php | |||
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John Sharpe is all that is man! I hope I'm in half as good of shape as he is when I'm his age! Even if I am in that good of shape I'll probably still keep the sleeves on my suit coats and tuxedos!  Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I wondered the same thing. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Well, you can't really call them a modern high tech design with all the fancy materials type of shoe? And aren't they similar in design to what has been used in Africa for quite some time now? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting How important is a traditional kit to your enjoyment of the safari?
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