ALF,
That is really dissapointing to hear. I have many good friends from the RSA who have owned their land for generations and I certainly consider them "African". Most continents and nations have had people come in and move the indigenous people out of their ancestral home lands. It happened throughout history. Austrailia and the aborigines, North America and our Native Americans. (that means Canada as well as the USA) All manner of peoples in Europe in the Middle Ages. The redistribution of land argument could get real sticky. Who did the Zulu defeat to increase their holdings etc.???? Will black Africans of one tribe have to give up property to other black African tribes they took it from??? Interesting conundrum!

Oops, the black africans will have to give up most of southern africa to the San bushman tribes if that is to be carried out correctly. "D"

Why not give the blacks back their land, just the way it was before the whites arrived? Destroy the buildings and infrastructure. Cut down or bulldose the fruit trees, etc. Blast all the dams and water impoundments, scorched earth.
I doubt the blacks would have any interest in rebuilding.
Jim

Alf,

I'm sorry to say that I realized this was inevitable on my first trip to RSA.

In today's political climate the white farmers will not get any help from the Good Old USA that so righteously pushed for the embargo that set all this up (or at least accelerated it.)

As you see, it is happening more "voluntarily" here in the USA and Canada. Real estate prices in a rich suburb of Cininnati are in jeopardy due to a recent claim of ownership by some Indians whose ancestors lived here for 4 years 220 years ago. They pushed out the previous indigenes when the whites pushed them out of Pennsyvania and New York.

Where will it all end? Perhaps the sea mollusks really own the land. I see their bones in all the rocks....

Oh, by the way, said Indians have indicated they'd settle for a few hundred acres of farmland and a Casino license!

There's no element of bigotry in my position - it's just that when land policies and ownership are not solid as bedrock the entire society is in a very precarious situation. I fear Zim and RSA are not alone.

Alf & others



There are so many [official or semi official land claims] in the gravy train grievance system in SA now that realistically I dont believe they will ALL ever be solved, and most will be stuck in the ensuing { log-jam } for many many years in the future, believe me it will take a long long time to get all the legit claims through the system so to speak, by then the government will be on it's knees and crying for outside help and the whole cycle of pleading poverty will go around again and again and the silly west will pump money in to prop up the antagonists, we dont learn from history do we !!



BTW Alf there are some really lovely hunting properties and agricultural farms in those areas you have mentioned. We are located west of Tzaneen and about an hour by road from the town.



Basically all I can say is DONT worry unduly and get on with hunting, drinking cold castles, chewing on a stick of dried wors or biltong, and enjoy the glorious African Sunsets ...



Regards, Peter

I, too, was chastised by Ray for my suggestion that the hunting was going to disappear if the land grab continued and that we as hunters should boycott the country. This would have sent a big message to the government that despicable behavior is not going to be rewarded by the international community. All of the commenter's agreed with Ray. I don't think they were right. Now the grab starts in Namibia and RSA. At what point does the White community start to point fingers at the despots in Africa like the Blacks did at the White regime?????

.

It is heartbraking to see so many things that have been built over the last several hundred years, the rule of law, public health systems, land ownership and development, being torn apart piece by piece. There have always been waves of barbarism that overwhelm societies grown soft and lazy.
Here we go again.
JCN

Hi Alf

Holy s..t you are serious, I dont know if my brother is yet in that same BAD situation you are !!!

OK THEN .... how about you take your case to the International court in the Hague, like all the other people in thw world seem to do OR does justice not apply to white people in Africa, only to liberals in other parts of the world ??

Peter

.

Alf



Thanks for the update, I will keep my ears to the ground.



BTW my nephew Shawn goes to Stanford College which is near that district, it's location is a wonderful area in the mountains just near the lake, you will know the college well I presume.



Peter

What a pitiful shame, my regards to all of you folks.

Proelio Procusi

Arkypete,



So you are ready to raze your house and give away your land without compensation? What are *you* smoking?



What we are talking about here is the equivalent of all the farmers in the original "Northwest Territories"-based land grants (much of Ohio) having to return all their land to the Indians for (probably) less than 10 ten cents on the dollar after generations of work to improve the value.



It's amazing how fast the "fair market value" of land drops when there is any question as to a clear title.



It will immediately be almost impossible for the farmers in question to get operating capital (the seasonal loans that are necessary to keep large farms in operation) for the next years' crops. Those farmers with outstanding loans will have great chunks of their mortgage come due immediately as the land value that secures the loans drops overnight. Farm equipment will be in the same boat. For an agriculture-based economy this is disaster.



They are doing all this under the colour of law, though, so do not expect an international outcry.



This is the ultimate fate of all nations who give the vote to people with no property -- a notion the founding fathers of the USA found totally abhorrent.

.

500Grains, You are so right. They have never build up anything, all they want to do is take and once they got it they mess it up so that the whites must rebuild it.

Jaco Human

I've said it before--as much as 8 years ago--I'll say it again: RSA will be the first country to move from developed status to undeveloped third world status. Sad. (Zimbabwe wasn't "deveoped" enough for the honor). At the rate the USA is going, it could eventually join the group!

It appears Thressa Heinz Kerry was ahead of her time. She left when things were good and latched on to a American millionaire. She now books herself as an Africian American, eh.

Proelio Procusi is the motto of one of the most effective antiguerrilla units of all the times the battalion 32 the insignia is a buufalo and was chosen not only in honour of the vsat herds of them that roamed Caprivi where the unit was formed ,but in the recognition of the figthing spirit of these men shared with this animalthe 6 arows represented the six tribesfrom which the men came ,the ganguela,the kuangali buskussu,bacongo,lunda chokue,ovibundo and kimbundu .Juan

"Might makes right" is an old expression. It's not only old - it is true.

quote:

BTW my nephew Shawn goes to Stanford College which is near that district, it's location is a wonderful area in the mountains just near the lake, you will know the college well I presume.

Balla, off topic slightly, I know some folks who teach there, wonderful school with great programmes and outlook!

I am intensely interested in this whole land claims issue..it is so woven into elements of politics, culture, environmental risk, economics, its a helluva convoluted thing! I hope to dedicate some time to it as a research interest begenning next year (depending on some stuff) and try publish something on whats going on, not in black and white (excuse the pun!) but in terms the why's and what for's and how people see the outcomes...

There have been some that have been or are potentially going be protected areas/conservancies (re: hunting land). There just such an example in the KZN Midlands (small) and one apparently on the cards in Northern KZN...

I feel if this going to happen, we need to try guide it right from the beginning...
I would like to see what some people like the Childs brothers (CAMPFIRE guys) think of this...

Cheers

News making it to American online news:

Zim says they have a few hundred more whites signed up to farm -- they don't say they get to own the land -- but there's nothing like the 4,500 they kicked off their lands before.

From the BBC:

RSA's news with upcoming elections have Tutu speaking out about corruption, brain drain, and morals, the crime rate, the way poverty is proliferating under black governments while politicians line their pockets (I did say corruption)...

IN the US, the issue of reparations usually has far less to do with land than it has to do with going after corporations who made money from trade powered by slavery -- which includes banks that bankrolled the textiles and other industrial developments that depended on Southern Agriculture.

I read a linguistic study examining bushman art -- looks like it came from rituals that involve red roan antelope, that live north of SA, indicating that at some point the Khoi and San were immigrants to South Africa, where they painted their rock art. Meanwhile, Khoi and San are going through the process of distinguishing between themselves in their interests and enfranchisement issues. And none of them seems to remember what that art was about anyway (so could it be used for claims?). What about the migrations of Bantu speaking peoples? Go after them? after sorting out admixtures? Shoot, there are genetic markers that can trace SOME tiny part of the signal that marks where some of ones ancestors came (this is touchy for any rapairations claims as well as for "indigenous" groups who have their own stories and traditions about where they came from or how they came from the ground).

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by DanEP:


IN the US, the issue of reparations usually has far less to do with land than it has to do with going after corporations who made money from trade powered by slavery -- which includes banks that bankrolled the textiles and other industrial developments that depended on Southern Agriculture.

I am surprised that you would even acknowledge the reparations issue. Slavery ended 141 years ago. No one who benefited from it is alive today. No one who endured it is alive today. Time to get over it.

Reparation is just another bogus welfare handout scheme.

I *know* slavery has been over for 141 yrs... in all the ways you mean it. That isn't going to stop some factions for pushing for it, and trying to drive it through activist courts. Just as you must be aware of the 9th circus -- er circuit -- court, we have just as crazy judges, including one happy to go along with NYC in completely ignoring the new firearms manufacturers protection against junk lawsuits law (the judge determined it didn't apply to NYC because NYC has public nuisance laws -- an anorexically thin argument)... go figger. Bottom line, I have developed a habit of paying attention to all sorts of otherwise crazy and baseless ideas because they all too often come up and bite us.

As for reparations, before 141 yrs ago, slavery was legal. I still haven't been able to figure out how it can be reasonable to sue someone for actions that were performed when they were still legal.

During the war, the emancipation declaration didn't actually free any slaves down south -- only those in territories under northern control. 150 yrs before that, given the colonial contracts for most of the people who came to America under the British, the notions of freedom, enfranchisement, indenture, etc, were not that much further away from slavery according to modern sensibilities. The French and Spanish each had different behaviors -- and those conditions were still better than what was happening for many in Europe. In that context, simply applying modern standards to past events claiming reparations for behavior that wasn't yet illegal when it was done doesn't capture the context of the behavior we're complaining about now. I suppose we could as well complain about the effects of lead poisoning that came with the emergence of the bronze age and sue anyone whose history benefited from said technology because it has contribued to our ambient lead exposure -- or I could sue because my great, great, great,... granddad had to serve in indenture as a victualler in Western Pennsylvania prior to the revolutionary war... not to mention northerners and southerners who fought on both sides of that war (I should sue myself for that, and sue everyone who were emancipated as a result of that for the bullet that ripped through my great great great grandad's mouth, orphaning his children, while I'm at it).

But, where I live, if someone steals your gun, and you cannot prove you made an effort to secure it, you can be prosecuted if your gun ends up being used in a crime. If you are a victim of crime yourself, you are treated as a perp.

None of this means I agree with it -- for the most part, the people voting for and signing those laws could care less whether I think its fair or sane. Mostly, it disgusts me. But ignoring it is a good way to end up in trouble.

Dan

I am simply not willing to discuss reparations as a legitimate topic. I will fight it, but I will not grant it legitimacy.

It's kinda like finding an old car in the junkyard. You spend time and money fixing it up, getting it perfect. It's better than brand new.

Then someone shows up and says "Hey! that's my car!"

*I* am not granting any legitimacy to reparations.

Getting back to my prior point, the same movement devistating Zimbabwe, threatening family farms held for generations in SA, and threatening families in Namibia is also finding expression in the US -- whose targets are likely to be our pensions, if they depend on investments on companies tracable to old antibellum companies and banks. On the other hand, those pensions may be wiped out anyway...

Dan

quote:

Why not give the blacks back their land, just the way it was before the whites arrived? Destroy the buildings and infrastructure. Cut down or bulldose the fruit trees, etc. Blast all the dams and water impoundments, scorched earth.
I doubt the blacks would have any interest in rebuilding.
Jim

No need to put out any effort to destroy things. The new "owners" will do that on their own.

LD

This is an OLD TOPIC but seeing someone ressurected it again from the DEAD here is the latested GOOD NEWS from our point of view.

MY brothers (owner operated private farm/ranch) in that general local regional area of Limpopo the Province on the (tropic of capricorn) was/has now been formally SOLD back to the government.

They offered my bother a price which he duly accepted so he now (still owns all the animals) and he will give the ranch to the new land claim owners sometime before MID 2007.

So to cut a long story short, he is happy with the price and will vacate sometime next year

Life goes on and there are essentially no worries as he has three other ranches in SA & Zambia to operate

Cheers, Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:
MY brothers (owner operated private farm/ranch) in that general local regional area of Limpopo the Province on the (tropic of capricorn) was/has now been formally SOLD back to the government.

They offered my bother a price which he duly accepted so he now (still owns all the animals) and he will give the ranch to the new land claim owners sometime before MID 2007.

Peter,

Is this the same farm you were advertising on AR for sale to members here, hunters etc?

Knowing there was a claim on it?

quote:

Most continents and nations have had people come in and move the indigenous people out of their ancestral home lands.

Too true, in fact I suspect that there may not be any land that is inhabited by the orginal inhabitants - anywhere!

And how far back do we take it? Perhaps land ownership in Europe should be handed over to a trust to manage until the rightful owner, of Neanderthal descent, comes to claim it?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

Peter,

Is this the same farm you were advertising on AR for sale to members here, hunters etc?

Knowing there was a claim on it?

NitroX

YES that is the same ranch .... BUT we only advertised it on the open market prior to it being (formally gazetted) as a land claim.

What you & others need to be aware of is that there are a (multitude of claims) on many many ranches throughout SA and also rumours of claims BUT until it is formally gazetted and a letter is received it is open game for purchase by anyone.

Sometimes it takes years for claimants to prove their case in COURT and MANY have NOT proved their case and their (pre-claim testing the waters) has been thrown out of court, therefore the ranch becomes totally free from future claims, and open for sale again, so it is a tightrope sometimes to judge. Each case has to be taken on merit and with patience

The best policy to follow is to ignore the rumours of claims UNTIL the actual (letter arrives in the mail) that is how we operated and will do so in future instances should they occur again on the other ranch. That policy works well, unless someone can offer me some other better ideas on how to approach it

Dont worry, everyone interested and enquiring about a ranch purchase in SA ALWAYS asks me and others alike the same question (is there a claim) and they get the bona fide same answer as I have outlined above

All questions welcome

Cheers, Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

Peter,

Is this the same farm you were advertising on AR for sale to members here, hunters etc?

Knowing there was a claim on it?

NitroX

YES that is the same ranch .... BUT we only advertised it on the open market prior to it being (formally gazetted) as a land claim.

Cheers, Peter

I can't help but interpret that to imply you suspected there would be future land claim issues, even though no formal claim had been lodged at the time.

Yet you tried to sell the property here on AR, well aware that a land claim would be highly likely in the near future.

I am probably one of the more naive people on earth, but I cannot understand how anyone could have doubted the eventual trashing of SA.

Ever since the end of aparthied (1994?) the country has continuously been degraded toward tribalism and eventual destruction of the land, infastructure, and the rule of law.

It is just the way the greenies are, whether in SA or anywhere else.

BwanaBob:

Neanderthal descent? I though Mugabe did claim Rhodesia. I have yet to utter that other word to describe that once grand country.


Dutch

Held center this morning.