quote:

but I also hope you dont take long shots using/ requiring rifle scopes that give you extra distance advantage over the distance limit of say, open sight hunting,

Woodjack,

Now that you raise the subject, I do often hunt with open sights. Those of my big game rifles, that are fitted with scopes, are fitted with low power variables, such as 1.25-4x, and all in QD mounts so that I can opt for open sights whenever possible.

Yet even when hunting with a scope fitted, I always try and stalk as close as possible. I have waded into a number of other threads, on the subject of so-called long-range hunting and have made this point before. When I hunt, I want to feel as much a part of the environment and the game as is possible and that means getting in close.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:


...IMO, when "hunting" there is no justifiable reason to shoot from a vehicle other than being lazy, bored or uninterested.

Woodjack: optics are essential to most hunters in order to "kill as quickly and as humanely" as possible which is the primary condition of ethical hunting. If one could do so effectively with open sights then that would be the way

happy hunting!

If a person uses a scope in order to avoid the greater task/challenge of a closer stalk to achieve a humane kill with open sights, then one could sorta say that makes them lazy bored and uninterested to some degree as well, doesnt it? Not wanting to stalk to a closer range and instead just cranking up the rifle scope out of convenience. is sorta like not wanting to get out of the truck aint it? They chose a point thats seems inconvenient for them to go beyond.
What Im saying is we all have our own level of challenge and our own level of convenience that we choose to suit ourselves.

woodjack,
A scope is not only used to shoot something at 200 yds but very often to "find" a clear bullet path amongst branches, twigs, etc at a closer distance that may deflect and end up wounding an animal causing undue suffering

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by GaryL:
I know of a case during World War II, of a P38 Lightning pilot on his way back to base from a training mission in northern Montana who spotted a herd of Pronghorn. He decided it would be fun to make a run on them. I don't know if he called it hunting, but the Court Martial called it criminal.
Gary

A. And the correlation to this post is???

B. Can you site the specific courts martial of this incident or is it urban legend. I don't doubt it happened, I just doubt it rose to the level of a general courts martial. Not back then anyway.

jorge

This was a big problem in 1947 Alaska, too. You take a couple of squadrons of veteran fighter pilots fairly fresh out of combat and make them fly training missions all week; they got bored as hell.

The locals complained more and more about straffed bears, moose or whatever until the decision was made to create an in-house volunteer pilot game warden program. Actually, an order was issued to stop killing game. End of problem. The warden program was to appease the civilians. My father was one of the first and no pilot was ever charged criminally. No squadron or base commander was going to ruin one of his pilot's career over a dead bear or moose in that day and age and once ordered to cease and desist, no pilot would disobey a direct order for the chance to pop a moose.

I shoot from a vehicle whenever I'm out to harvest some doe meat and don't have a lot of time to play cave-man. Generally, I hunt horns the hard way but believe me, if I were out doe hunting and spotted a 200 pt buck in the process and it was buck season, I wouldn't turn him down. BTW, it's legal here.

Selecting a good quality high magnification scope has nothing to do with hunting etically or not. It has to do with making a claen kill at your chosen range, thats all. If you are confident with open sights, use it, if not, use a scope that fits you.

If hunting DG, would you shoot it from the vehicle? If yes, where is the danger? (apart maybe from leopard and elephant) If you do shoot DG from a vehicle, I must seriously question your motivation for doing so. Is'nt the biggest thrill of hunting DG supposed to be being close to something that can and will kill you? Where does this happen if shooting from a vehicle? Do you only do it to go and bragg to your friends about your experience in "wildest Africa?"
Now, while generally not dangerous, if hunting PG only, you are missing out on all the walking, sights, wet dung, spooring, a francolin that flies up from under you just after the PH has shown you a pair of leopard tarcks, etc. The vehicle hunter is definately having a lesser experience than his friend that is prepared to walk a bit, but they still pay the same money. Now, if you want it that way, and it is legal in that part of Africa, by all means, do it your way, from the vehicle, but just at least try hunting on foot-
You might like it more than you believe possible.

My down the street neighbor fell out of a tree a few years back while hanging a tree stand and landed on a root of a tree and is now paralyzed 100% from the waist down. His mobility is almost 100% from the waist up. Can he hunt from a vehicle? Does he need to have men push his chair over hill and dale to purse his lifelng dream of going to Africa? NO
In his case should he be excluded from the world of hunting?

Cunningham

In previous posts I mentioned a client of mine that also has huge mobility problems. What I am saying does not exclude him from the world of hunting, but he will surely be excluded from the fuller experience, unless he can find a lot of bearers. By all means, let him hunt from a vehicle (or should I rather say shoot?), at least he is having some of the experience, not only read about it.

Karl S,
Thats just what I'm talking about. Let those that have to do it. I am also saying that if you shoot from a vehicle, for any hunter, its okay. That would be a clients choice.

Last year I had a group in South Africa filming for some Cable shows here in the States. The cameraman was going to be treated to a Gemsbok by the host of the show at the end of the hunt after all filming was complete. The last day came and the cameraman's time was here. He would not for anything shoot from the vehicle. Several great opportunities were presented to him. He just would not shoot from the vehicle. He came home empty handed.

Yes Cunningham, ultimately it is the clients choice, after all he is paying to be there. All I am saying is, that he /she might be missing a great deal of the experience. I just prefer to walk and stalk with my clients. I use a vehicle to find tracks, spot game, and recover shot game, but would love to do a real walking only hunt, with porters and everything someday. (though recovery would still pretty much have to be done by "radio controlled" vehicle, to distribute the meat timely.)

Wow! I just finished churning through all three pages and am impressed with the richness of thought that has gone into this topic. It's hard to imagine what I might add, but let me throw in a few thoughts anyway.

I have a good friend who is a birdwatcher. He maintains that the best blind for birdwatching is an automobile. What that suggests it that you can get closer to wildlife, easier, in a vehicle than by most other methods. How many times have we spotted game from a vehicle, only to have it spook as we open the door. That's why most jurisdictions ban shooting from a vehicle. Personally, I agree with that approach, as to shoot from a vehicle, in my opinion, does not give the prey a fair chance to escape. I don't know what I would do if I hunted in a far away place where shooting from the vehicle was expected. It would be a difficult decision for me, but I know I would never go back. It would just leave a bad taste in my mouth. I am not passing judgement on anyone else's practice here, just stating how I feel.

I was intrigued to read about the comparison and contrast between the ethics and the aesthetics of hunting. They are not the same thing, but there should be some congruence between the two. I would add legality to that equation. The relationship between legality, ethics and aesthetics must have some significance for the sake of integrity.

Carry on!

I don't care what anyone else say's or what the popular opinion is or what the local custom is or the ethics of the situation I WILL NOT DRINK MY COFFEE ANY WAY BUT BLACK. Anyone who puts cream or sugar or cream and sugar is going against all things proper and I WILL NOT DO IT.

Cunningham!

"Hip Hip Horray" for ther camerman!!!!!


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Selecting a good quality high magnification scope has nothing to do with hunting etically or not. It has to do with making a claen kill at your chosen range, thats all. If you are confident with open sights, use it, if not, use a scope that fits you.

If hunting DG, would you shoot it from the vehicle? If yes, where is the danger? (apart maybe from leopard and elephant) If you do shoot DG from a vehicle, I must seriously question your motivation for doing so. Is'nt the biggest thrill of hunting DG supposed to be being close to something that can and will kill you? Where does this happen if shooting from a vehicle? Do you only do it to go and bragg to your friends about your experience in "wildest Africa?"
Now, while generally not dangerous, if hunting PG only, you are missing out on all the walking, sights, wet dung, spooring, a francolin that flies up from under you just after the PH has shown you a pair of leopard tarcks, etc. The vehicle hunter is definately having a lesser experience than his friend that is prepared to walk a bit, but they still pay the same money. Now, if you want it that way, and it is legal in that part of Africa, by all means, do it your way, from the vehicle, but just at least try hunting on foot-
You might like it more than you believe possible.

Hello Karl,

The word "Chosen" is the key principle here.
Everyone has the right to choose what or how they do things. Bwanamich states that one can use a scope to improve vision through close brush for a clearer more precise humane shot, so he allows himself the application of ascope to do so. Other Folk who strictly may use open sights would pass up the shot and wait for a better-closer/clearer oportunity should it arise(and if it dont arise, they accept that as part of the way they hunt),cause using a scope may contravine their own prefered level of challenge or personal ethics. Thats their freedom of choice aswell. Alldepends how compelled one is to get a certain result.
I for one find it downright sneaky and unfair to set a bait and hide in a blind when in persuit of leopard, but thats only my view and I wont condem people do it that way if they want ,just like I wont condem those who shoot from the truck. I personally am rather happy to go to Africa and not take a single animal,cause killing is not the ultimate challenge to me, nor is bringing home a trophy necessarily the ultimate achievement.

If people like the challenge of risking their lives with dangerous game, why do they have a PH backing them up? Why dont they just roll with the punches and full risks of hunting DG? to me it seems they have someone compensating for any error they may make,telling me that they really dont want to face dangerous game in the pure individual sense of one man against one beast, they sort of like it stacked in their favour incase the animal gets the upper hand at some point. It could potentially be more dangerous if they hunted unaided,but they chose not that option. Onemay choose to hunt alone, another with the safety/convenience of PH support, another may choose the safety/convenience of a vehicle. Once again,like everything in life,it is their choice where they draw the line.

Stalking close versus long range shooting is comparing two different skill sets. The abilty to use stealth to come close to the prey as opposed to the ablity to shoot accuratly at a longer distance. Both are valuable skills needed for consistant success.

What skill set is required to ride in a vehicle?

quote:

Originally posted by Ohiosam:
Stalking close versus long range shooting is comparing two different skill sets. The abilty to use stealth to come close to the prey as opposed to the ablity to shoot accuratly at a longer distance. Both are valuable skills needed for consistant success.

What skill set is required to ride in a vehicle?

A big bum or a thick pillow!

465H&H,

Yea you're right, "Hip Hip Horray for the camerman!!!!!"

Cunningham,

The cameraman didn't come home empty handed, he came home with a great experience. Better the great experience than the dead animal. Best if you get both.

JPK

Haven't read the three pages of posts, but ....

I shoot from a vehicle .....

and .....

I hunt on my own two feet.


To me shooting from a vehicle is an alien concept to actual hunting. Have done it myself when urged enough by the PH, but never respect the "trophy" it might produce.