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This is sadly true but I can send you to a very special place to hunt with a special guy where you will walk in front, you will make the stalk on your own (while the PH sits back and observes)...at least for PG. Don't know if it's too smart to have the neophyte lead the way on DG. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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C'est vrai, mon ami. Mais c'est un mon vie et mon conscience, n'est ce pas? ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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Gentlemen, I think the longer one hunts, the less hang up one has about this subjects. Hunting in the wild has enough twists and turns to make it interesting, without having to worry about it. In my own experience, the "arm-chair" hunters tend to argue this point more than those who would rather be out hunting. | |||
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Meaning what, I wonder? That the more one hunts, the less willing one is to work for the hunt and the less sensitive he becomes to killing for the sake of the kill, and not the hunt itself? Interesting perspectives, here. ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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I think that's the most singularly sad and troublesome statement about hunting I've heard in a long time. Not that I disagree; I guess I do in many ways and I applaud your brutal honesty, but I for one lament what it means for me and my hunting brethren; that is has little to do with how much time invested or skill you've developed as a hunter, but rather just exactly how deep your pockets are...* *Edited for clarification ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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Not at all. What I meant was the longer one hunts, the more one learns to accept the hunt for it is meant to be. I can follow a herd of buffalos for days without ever getting a shot. And I can be driving along and see a trophy by the side of the road, jump out and shoot it. I can accept both instances as being part of hunting. I can go out several days and not be able to fire a single shot. And I can find and shoot several trophies within walking distance of camp. I accept both as being part of hunting. I am afraid many people have the wrong outlook on hunting. They wish to make a sort of shopping list of what trophies they are going to get. Preferably arranged to be shot on a sort of time table, and the animals have to be standing broadside for the classic shoulder shot. So they can go back home and brag to their drinking buddies of their adventure in Africa. I can guarantee you these ones will have perfected their stories long before they get home. And these stories will be as close to the truth as a Hollywood thriller. I have seen this with my own eyes, to the extent that the PH who was with the so called hunter asked later if that hunter was telling the story of their hunt! Hunting IS a lot of luck. I won't go as far as mentioned earlier. But, one has to be at the right place at the right time. Many of the big shots who display their trophies in the record books have obtained them in unethical and probably illegal manners. While they claimed all the hardships they had to go through to obtain these trophies. Again, I repeat what I have said eariler. Do whatever makes you comfortable, and stay within the laws of the country you are hunting in. | |||
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Some of these guys that can afford to hunt all these SCI record book animals,have earnt the money to do so in ways,that to some,may also be considered unethical or illegal, so I dont think they be to concerned as to how they obtain their trophy. | |||
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Well, at the risk of getting some people's backs up, I am going to throw my opinion in. I absolutely and totally disagree with the statements of Jan Oelofse. What on earth has your means of transport in getting to the hunting area got to do with the actual hunting itself? Is he saying that for us foreign hunters to be ethical, we have to swim to Africa? Or can only people born in an area be ethical hunters? And hunting can be ethical - when you put yourself into the target animal's world and hunt in a manner that gives him full use of his senses and defences, then it IS ethical. Everyone who hunts is able to make up their own mind but I personally refuse to shoot off of a vehicle. I don't care if it is the 'accepted' way of the locals. I won't do it and I have refused to do it. Driving into the hunting area, because our hunting time is always limited, is acceptable but, once in the area, park the vehicle and hunt on foot. I am not just out to kill animals - if that is what I wanted to do then I would get myself a job in an abbatoir and be paid to do it! When I hunt I want the experience of Africa; I want to smell and taste the dust; walk and stalk the same game trails as the animals; smell the game up close (not the diesel exhausts of the safari car); feel the thrill of stumbling into big game at close range or feel the shudder of seeing a mamba up close; earn the honest battle scares of numerous scratches and cuts from pushing through the thornbush; and earn the respect and friendship of the PH and his staff because we put in the hard miles - the big trophy we were after may have eluded us, but we earned the right to hunt him, nonetheless. That is what hunting is really about. "White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell) www.cybersafaris.com.au | |||
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well said bob | |||
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PH: Thats a big Water Buck over there, do you want to shoot it from here? Client; no, not sporting old chap... | |||
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Well said. Laws are what bind us, in the sense that we are required to obey them, or face consequences. Ethics are what guide us as individuals. Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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“The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport†- Saxon Pope | |||
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I've noticed that attitudes toward these issues vary a great deal. With some threads on "ethics issues" one can see posts containing absolute condemnation of hunting in any enclosure, no matter how large, hunting from blinds, or the use of any kind of bait (natural or otherwise). While, I'm not advocating any of these practices (it is completely dependent on the level of challenge acceptable to the individual), just wanted to point out that all of them are legal practices in many, if not most, areas of North America. However, I really don't know of anywhere in North America where it is legal to road hunt and shoot from a vehicle. Yet, there doesn't seem to be as much of an outcry against it from some folks. Since we usually base our ethical perceptions on what is acceptable in our own culture, or within our own "inner-circle" of associates, this is very interesting. Have seen some of the same trends with certain folks in my local SCI Chapters and other organizations which I belong to, and, after years of witnessing these phenomena, I've been able to form my own conclusions about what drives these different groups. Overall, I agree with Saeed and several others -- It is really up to the individual, what level of challenge they are into. In fact, I know a few long-time hunters who's health has declined over the years, and this is really the only way that they can hunt anymore. Personally, I'd rather see them headed to the field and having fun, than staying home due to worrying about anybody's perception of the ethics of their hunting methods. | |||
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JPK, I will have to tell some of my friends who consider themselves "Dove Hunters" that in fact they are only shooters. If I want to take a walk thru the woods I will do so. But when I hunt I will hunt anyway I like. If one hunts or shoots (take your pick) from a truck in Africa and operator of the area says it is Ok you can be sure you are not the first cleint to do so and you will find the game is spooky of vehicles. Just my experience. | |||
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My thoughts exactly, vapodog, especially the part about arrogance. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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I consider dove hunting to be just that, hunting. I also have no problem with some holding themselves to a higher standard if they choose to do so. Where I have a problem is when they adopt the holier than thou attitude and cast aspersions on the character of those who do not agree with them. If it is a legal way to hunt in Texas, for example, it is ethical to some who do it that way, which makes it alright for them to do. If one chooses not to hunt in that manner, it is a personal choice, not binding on all of us. Some here seem not to be able to grasp that essential point. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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Well said patrkyhntr! Bravo!  Bravo! "America's Meat - - - SPAM" As always, Good Hunting!!! Widowmaker416 | |||
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FAIR CHASE STATEMENT FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals. HUNTER ETHICS Fundamental to all hunting is the concept of conservation of natural resources. Hunting in today's world involves the regulated harvest of individual animals in a manner that conserves, protects, and perpetuates the hunted population. The hunter engages in a one-to-one relationship with the quarry and his or her hunting should be guided by a hierarchy of ethics related to hunting, which includes the following tenets: 1. Obey all applicable laws and regulations. 2. Respect the customs of the locale where the hunting occurs. 3. Exercise a personal code of behavior that reflects favorably on your abilities and sensibilities as a hunter. 4. Attain and maintain the skills necessary to make the kill as certain and quick as possible. 5. Behave in a way that will bring no dishonor to either the hunter, the hunted, or the environment. 6. Recognize that these tenets are intended to enhance the hunter's experience of the relationship between predator and prey, which is one of the most fundamental relationships of humans and their environment. | |||
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Five things to add FWIW: First, I don't think its being holier than thou to have a debate and try to get others to see what they are missing from your perspective. WRT this topic, I am trying to get those truck bound fellows to realize that there is likely to be much more personal satisfaction in getting off the truck and going it on foot. And giving it a try. But that is it. I also think the sensativity and defensiveness, even indignation of some here is pretty clear indication of their own misgivings. Second, If a fellow is handi capped or otherwise incapable of or restricted in going it on foot, a hide or even the truck is certainly a fine alternative to staying at home. Third, shooting can be fun and there isn't anything nessecarily wrong with it, so long as the shooter doesn't confuse what he's doing with hunting. Personally, I have a great time shooting. Fourth, apparently diferently than Saeed, I find that the older I get and the more I do something the less critical the absolute success becomes and the more critical how that success is acheived becomes. Fifth, lots of talk about luck here, but large portions of good luck are made of preparation, determination and persistance. An equally large portion of bad luck is made of the absence of these. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I agree with Saeed, I like to stalk & hunt but have no problem shooting from the truck if the need arises. | |||
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Nickudu, Thanks for the Boone and Crockett Club information. Do you also have the SCI definition of "Fair Chase" and Hunter Ethics? I believe the Fair Chase definition is located in their record books. I've seen it and now cannot find it on the website. Les | |||
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I'm riding in the back of a cruiser reading a book. The PH spots a nice animal and stops the vehicle and tells me to shoot. I rest my rifle on the roll bar and make a perfect shot. I get out, walk over to the dead animal, bend down behind it while the PH takes my picture. I then walk over to a shady spot and continue my book while the staff takes care of the animal. When they are done I get back up into my seat and off we go with the PH and Tracker looking for game and me with my nose buried in the book. Am I a Hunter or a Shooter? I'm riding in a cruiser looking for game but the PH spots it. He tells me to shoot so I rest on the roll bar and make another perfect shot. yadda, yadda, yadda. Am I a Hunter or a Shooter? The definition of Hunter and Shooter seem to be the question here. Maybe sometimes we are both in the same day. To me it is important to know the difference and which one I am at the time. Many Shooters pretend to be Hunters when they are not. | |||
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Who died and made them god!  Mickey1 How can you go to Africa and ride around in the vehicle and read a book! You, for sure are not a hunter and not enjoying Africa. So yes, you are a shooter! "America's Meat - - - SPAM" As always, Good Hunting!!! Widowmaker416 | |||
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So if I look around instead of reading I will be a Hunter? | |||
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We all ride airplanes and vehicles to go hunting these days. The only debate is when we switch from the mechanical transportation to our own feet. Each makes our own decisions which may change with age and disabilities. | |||
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This shooters vs. hunters debate will never end. People hunt/shoot/chase/stalk/trap game because it is fun. It is the same thing when a little kid picks up a rock and throws it at a bird. He was having fun until someone told him he was not supposed to do it. Go with your gut. If you are having fun and are within the law, ENJOY. | |||
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We speak so far only of "personal ethics". Websters lists other varieties, such as "Codes of Ethics", governing the conduct of inumerable groups, from physicians to boyscouts. Are such ethics subordinate to personal ethics? Were they ever necessary? Desirable? How is it, do you think, they came to be? | |||
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Enter Socrates, stage right.  There definitely seem to be three distinct camps here: the 'shooting from the truck is always OK' gang, the 'shooting from the truck is never OK' gang, and the 'shooting from the truck is OK for others if they so choose, but is not something I choose to ever partake in' gang. It seems also reasonably certain that those with solid convictions won't change their stance. Variety is the spice, I suppose. Even if the truck shooters are kidding themselves about it being even a vaguely sporting method [tongue jammed in corner of mouth between cheek and gum].  ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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What Russ Gould and Nickudu posted. For me it is about the enjoyment of the hunt within legal and my physical limits. And I agree, no trophy goes on the wall if it has not been hunted fairly. And the term "fairly" is not used in a judgemental way as everyone has their own definition of that, once the restrictions are satisfied. If we continue this, then we have to evaluate each animal hunted and the way it is hunted, eg. baiting leopard vs use of dogs vs tracking only ,etc,etc,. Mark Sullivan likes all his in full charge . Bet he never bragged about shooting an Orbi.Dak | |||
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I was 4 times on safari in Africa I had no trouble about ethical or not ethical about shooting from the car (or at least beyond 300m from the car, or shooting a young male or a female, or shooting close to a waterhole) Why? Because it’s definitely against the law in Western and Central Africa. Just try it, You, the PH and the outfitter will be stiffly fined. The most respected law in the bush is denouciation : the bush’s secret doesn’t exist, we ‘ll be denounced sooner or later. The car is used to go in remote places of the territory (50 to 200 km) and help spooring from the dirt track, not more. Animals get shy of the car. When seeing it or hearing it they gently “start their motor†and leave slowly. They know they won’t be shot from or close to the car. That’s why my bag was always light Safari 1 : 10 days, 2 animals Safari 2 : 10 days, 3 animals Safari 3 : 13 days, 4 animals Safari 4 : 14 days, 3 animals. The only odd animals shot from the car was for feeding or baiting. : baboons and warthogs. I let go 1 World record class Major Hartebeest and 1 World record class roan. Both are known for a long time, they are leaving slowly whenever the car is coming, letting themselves admire. Shooting from the car would not have let them get so recordable. I’d have shot my leo and lion on the first safari and my buff the very first day. IMO, should one begin with shooting from the car, the animals will be more and more shy and the poor hunter (shooter) will see less and less animals. If they are shot only after a thorough tracking (not stalking) bet You’d not see more than 5 animals per day instead of between 100 and 300. For me, for my hunting partners shooting close from a car is “worst than a crime, a fault...â€(told about Napoleon when he made the Duke of Enghien shot by a firing squad) Worst than shooting from close to a car is shooting at a waterhole in desertic country or dry season. In these circumstances animals need and will come to drink, they cannot escape the shooter. I have been told that (Namibia???) in certain zones the waterholes are occupied during the night by the staff and their dogs so as to deter game to come nightly, forcing them to come and drink during the day (legal shooting time????) , when the shooter is in ambush. Fair Chase ? ....................and who cares??????????????? In my ordinary life, at work, at home....I don't cheat, so why cheat when hunting? J B de Runz Be careful when blindly following the masses ... generally the "m" is silent | |||
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Dakota45056: As a one time hunter to Africa, I would ordinarily not get into this discussion. However I do remember my PH saying that for whatever reason, wild animals (who detest the smell of oil and gas) rarely pick up the presence of a human being in the vehicle. In our camp we had a very old buff who used to senak up the slope to our camp and sleep behind the Landcruisers.(I tried repeatedly to get up early in the morning to get a pic but always he moved away either because he heard me or i just didn't get up early enough! .It always made me feel pretty good. He had survived another night!) I was told that it was because he knew the lions were repelled by the smell of oil and gas. (The buff was blind in one eye and my PH assured me that he would shoot him before letting the lions tear him to pieces- even though that was illegal{No interference with Nature} | |||
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A cliffhanger, eh? Begging the question, what exactly is a hunt 'meant to be'?
Saeed, I'd never challenge your expertise or experience, but I guess that's what I have trouble wrapping my head around with this topic: if one is out to enjoy a true hunting experience, and knowing every hard-earned beast that you've taken makes for the very best memories and sense of accomplishment, then why even ever consider shooting an animal that you've stumbled into from the vehicle? Doesn't that fly directly into the face of the whole hunting part?
Wait, you're switching arguments here just a wee bit. I don't think anyone's talking about a lucky random encounter while out of the truck, or just heel-toeing about. It was a discussion regarding *shooting from the truck*, was it not?
Your argument is drifting again!
For fear of being overly redundant, I'll just now insert a
Another
That statement and mindset I understand. But you still haven't really addressed directly the shooting from the truck being an equally sporting, or *ethical* endeavor, as it were. But thanks for your response. I've learned a lot from this thread, and hope to remember it if and when I'm ever pushed to shoot from the truck. I like to think I won't give in to the temptation to take a beast I haven't at least done my best to work for. Cheers, KG ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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I have but one word for the post above: BRAVO! ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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OK we all know what is legal and what is ethical is not neccasarily the same. So if a PH suggests that I shoot an animal from a vehical and I shoot the PH for suggesting that have I behaved ethically? If I felt it was would you say "OK that's the way you feel". I realize this is an absurd senario but that is the slippery slope of moral relativism, you can justify any behavior. A couple of years ago I was at my in-laws for some holliday watching a TV hunting show. It showed some pro athlete being driven around by his guide looking for Prong horn. They saw one, stopped, he got out and shot it. My in-laws are not hunters, but not anti-hunting but that was hard to justify to them! As far as "When in Rome..." that just sounds like my teenagers trying get me to let them do something because ALL their friends are doing it. I realize I can't impose my ethics on anyone, but I'd be remiss not to debate them. | |||
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I ahve made my posision clear earlier on this threat, but just to reiterate. I will not allow a client to shoot from a vehicle, because he is too lazy to do a bit of work for the trophy. Even if spotted from a vehicle, one normally can get in a short stalk to the animal. Sorry if I believe one should get the full experience you are paying for, that is just my opinion. Now I hear it is because I have not hunted long enough (Saeed). I have a cleint with angiloserus spondilytes (hope it is spelled right), a condition that seriously affects his mobility, and though he mostly shoot from the truck, he shot his first animal walk and stalk last year, and was over the moon doing it. He vowed to become fitter, and do it more often. Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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Since I was seventeen years old I have hunted the New Zealand Alps for Chamois, Himalayan Thar and Red Deer. Often using a Helichopter for access. But in recent years northern hunters have been using these choppers to shoot from. While not ilegal, how can one say this is ethical hunting??? Ozhunter. | |||
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This is not a personal attack Bwanabob,just using your words as an example to bring up some interesting points; You say you wont shoot from a truck thats your choice and thats fair enough.... but I also hope you dont take long shots using/ requiring rifle scopes that give you extra distance advantage over the distance limit of say, open sight hunting, cause that would take you a certain distance out of some animals zone of "full use of his senses and defences" and deny you the chance to " smell the game up close" as you put it. Unaided human eye against unaided animal eye sounds more rewarding sporting fair and ethical doent it? and Open sights would bring you closer to the zone you crave and rave so much about.... So you hunt open sighted and as a result you come back empty handed cause you could not get into open sight range, doesnt really matter does it?, cause your into "hunting" not killing right? otherwise you would work in an slaughterhouse right? What I m getting at is,does stepping down off a truck walking 50 or 500yds and taking a 200-300yd shot at an animal with a scoped rig that does not know your there all of a sudden put a person onto some supreme moral ground or give them the impression that they have achieved something superior over the person that takes an open sight shot at 50yds from a truck at an animal that does know your there? All im saying is,lets look at the other things we do before we attack the truck hunters. | |||
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From my understanding of the posts above, it appears that most those that are "for" or "not against" shooting from a vehicle use the argument that those "against" the practice should NOT impose their "ethical standard" on others. Yet by defending their position on being "for" or "not against" shooting from a vehicle they are doing exactly that! IMO, when "hunting" there is no justifiable reason to shoot from a vehicle other than being lazy, bored or uninterested. To me, HUNTING is about an experience; capturing a memory through active participation. This is my personal definition as others have their own different definition of the word. Woodjack: optics are essential to most hunters in order to "kill as quickly and as humanely" as possible which is the primary condition of ethical hunting. If one could do so effectively with open sights then that would be the way  happy hunting! "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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If a person uses a scope in order to avoid the greater task/challenge of a closer stalk to achieve a humane kill with open sights, then one could sorta say that makes them lazy bored and uninterested to some degree as well, doesnt it? Not wanting to stalk to a closer range and instead just cranking up the rifle scope out of convenience. is sorta like not wanting to get out of the truck aint it? They both chose a point thats seems inconvenient for them to go beyond. What Im saying is we all have our own level of challenge and our own level of convenience that we choose to suit ourselves. I was speaking to a guy who served in Vietnam,first as afoot soldier, then came the offer to fly Hueys bringing troops in and out Of hot LZs. Then he had the chance to go to attack Cobras. He felt his chances were better in the Air than all that crazy stuff on the ground so he took the Huey training/flying job offer, then he felt the Cobra was even better, cause it was less exposed/ vunerable cause it was more of an offensive craft that generally flew higher, faster, more heavily armored, all in support of the ground guys he once fought together with and Hueys he once flew. Did it make him any lesser a "man" cause he was now sitting in an "AirTruck" (Cobra), rather than still on the ground or landing Hueys in highly dangerous hot LZs? As hunters we are also in the same field and we each do battle our own way. | |||
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I guess we could carry this thinking a step farther and come to the conclusion that the only ethical hunting would be when challenging the animal on his own terms with primitive weapons, such as recurve bow, wooden arrows, and flint tips to the arrows. Perhaps spears? Maybe hand to hand combat with a knife? Gentlemen, I think this is a case where we will have to agree to disagree on what constitutes ethical hunting. There are simply no absolutes, except in the minds of the absolutists, are there? We all make decisions based upon our own concept of right and wrong, with the exception of sociopaths. While we might try, no individual can force another to adopt his personal code of ethics as regards hunting and fair chase. If one abides by the laws in the jurisdiction in which he is hunting, and if the hunting method is within his code of ethical conduct, the hunt is then ethical no matter what anyone else says. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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