In the last issue, Feb 2006 of Sports Afield, Cameron Hopkins had an article about Namibian Professional Hunter Jan Oelofse. He is regarded as an expert in capturing and relocating wild game. However his take on ethical shooting is different from anything I have experienced or any PH I have ever hunted with. Here are the quotes:

ON SHOOTING: "I don't care about the animal that gets shot. He's dead. I care about the rest of the herd, not to upset them any more than necessary. The object is to take one animal with the least disturbance to the herd. That's why I want my clients to shoot from the vehicle when possible. The herd is not disturbed by a vehicle as much as it is by a man on foot."
ON ETHICAL HUNTING: "There is no such thing. Some guys talk about not wanting to shoot out of a vehicle because it's unethical. Nonsense. They flew on a jet to get to Africa and worry about a truck?"

So much for "Fair Chase" hunting!!!

Whats the opinion on all this??

Dak

dakota45056,

I am sure you are going to get many differing opinions on this, as the meaning of "ethics" can be taken to different levels by different people.

And, I might add, many people talk about one thing when they do the exact opposite on the hunt.

My own take on this, is follow the old saying "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".

Hunting in Zimbabwe, for instance, one is not allowed to even rest his rifle on the truck, let alone shooting from it.

I have no problems with this, and have hunted there many years.

In South Africa, it is a different matter. On many occasions I have shot off the truck, and never gave it a second thought.

At the end of the day, do what you think is right for you, under the circumstances you find yourself in. And that what you do is allowed in the country you are hunting in.

This morning I just watched a show on the "Men's Channel" called DIVAS and they were hunting in RSA with OoA.

All of their footage was shooting off the truck or from a high platform at a waterhole where tons of lucerne was dumped for game to feed on.

The ladies were wearing lots of jewelry and dressed quite fashionably and never looked dusty. They did make very fine shots but I don't think they stalked a single animal on foot.

They were very happy with their hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
dakota45056,

I am sure you are going to get many differing opinions on this, as the meaning of "ethics" can be taken to different levels by different people.

And, I might add, many people talk about one thing when they do the exact opposite on the hunt.

My own take on this, is follow the old saying "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".

Hunting in Zimbabwe, for instance, one is not allowed to even rest his rifle on the truck, let alone shooting from it.

I have no problems with this, and have hunted there many years.

In South Africa, it is a different matter. On many occasions I have shot off the truck, and never gave it a second thought.

At the end of the day, do what you think is right for you, under the circumstances you find yourself in. And that what you do is allowed in the country you are hunting in.

........CASE CLOSED......

I enjoy hunting on foot, but that has nothing to do with ethics, it is simply my choice! Your's may be different! That's fine by me. My ethics are only to make a clean kill with as little suffering to the animals as is possible. What the rifle is rested on, makes absolutely no difference to me!

Some outfitters in Namibia want you to shoot from the truck, others are 100% against it.

In the Khomas area (near Windhoek) it is pretty rough going if you don't shoot out of the truck. Stalks are really difficult because of the thorns.

In the Kalahari it is much more open and thorns are pretty non-exhistant. I recommend using your own gauge.

I didn't like it at first, but after getting my ass kicked by the thorns it really opened my mind.

If I were to hunt someplace as thorny as the Khomas mountains again, and a truck was provided I would damn sure think about it.

quote:

My ethics are only to make a clean kill with as little suffering to the animals as is possible.

Agree - - - - -

I enjoy the stalk, but sitting in a blind having a leopard walk in is breathtaking! I feel the end result, what the situation calls for, that's legal of course!

Being there is what really counts!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"when in Rome, do as the Romans do".

Agree 100%
To each his own. I stalk, I use spotlights, I have shoot from the truck, from a blind, etc, etc.

L

I know Jan Oelofse, and hunted with his outfit in '95. Oom Jan definitely has his own opinions, and is not shy about mentioning them.

Most people talking about hunting ethics mean "how we do it here", and confuse their way with the only way. They also do not differentiate between ethics and aestheetics. Or if you will the morals of the activity, versus the beauty of the practice.

I once argued the vehicle thing with a Namibian who was pushing people to sign up to his list of "hunting ethics". He could not grasp the difference between the morality of the activity, and the beauty of how it is practiced. I tied him up in knots because he would hunt from a dugout canoe, but not from a jeep -- and could not explain why one is good and one is bad.

But then I participate in a group of international hunters, and we have debated this issue long ago.

jim

My humble view is shooting from a vehicle is shooting. Not hunting. Thorns, mud, dust, snakes, fatigue, are all part of hunting. To shoot from a vehicle is to cheat one's self of the experience and in my view dishonors the game and the conditions they live in.

I have to go along with Saeed. If it is legal I have no problem with people hunting however they see fit. For me I'm always happier hunting away from the truck but on the other hand hunting from a non-motorized boat/canoe is OK with me.

I think a lot of hunters may be a little too stuck on what constitute hunting ethics and tend to believe what works for them should be the standard for all. My feeling is each to his own. If we become too divided we are more vulnerable to the Antis.

Mark

On my last hunt in June of last year, my best friend Todd had a hell of a time getting his kudu. He even missed a "chip shot" at what was probably a 60 incher at 50 yards in thick brush. In any event, he (we) walked miles only to be foiled at the last minute for myriad reasons. Finally, on the last evening of a 14 day safari, a nice 55" bull gave him a broadside shot from atop a ridge at 350 plus yards.

He was spooked and ready to go and our PH allowed him to use the vehicle's roll bar for a rest. He spined him with a hell of a shot. Did we break the rules? yes. Did we "lessen" the hunt in any way? I don't think so. That was a very hard won kudu taken most ethically.

I guess it must be the business I'm in, but I tend to use the word "honor" a lot more judiciously. jorge

GaryL, I assume you have and never will hunt from a blind for Leopard, or over a water hole. You have never set up and called in turkey or sat on a deer crossing. How about setting in a fence row for passing dove or participated in a driven pheasant hunt. If you bow hunt you have never hunted from a tree stand. Just wondering.

The Old Hunter:

Leopard Blind: Sept '07
Turkey call: No, but I've called varmints. Does that count?
Fence Row for Doves: Yes
Driven Pheasant: No, but I've walked on a "drive" hunt in Germany.
Bow Hunt: No, I haven't.

These things just seem different to me than shooting from a vehicle. You are physically "in their space", on their terms and usually with your feet on the ground.

Maybe its because where I come from if you shoot so much as a gopher from a vehicle and are caught you are in serious trouble!
Gary

I know of a case during World War II, of a P38 Lightning pilot on his way back to base from a training mission in northern Montana who spotted a herd of Pronghorn. He decided it would be fun to make a run on them. I don't know if he called it hunting, but the Court Martial called it criminal.

With ethics, the fundamental question is, "Where do you draw the line?" I guess we each have to decide, unless the law dictates, and then live with the choice.
Gary

quote:

Originally posted by GaryL:
I know of a case during World War II, of a P38 Lightning pilot on his way back to base from a training mission in northern Montana who spotted a herd of Pronghorn. He decided it would be fun to make a run on them. I don't know if he called it hunting, but the Court Martial called it criminal.
Gary

A. And the correlation to this post is???

B. Can you site the specific courts martial of this incident or is it urban legend. I don't doubt it happened, I just doubt it rose to the level of a general courts martial. Not back then anyway.

jorge

While I personally don't like to shoot from a vehicle, I will admit to have done it a couple times. I don't think it was unethical, but I much rather do my hunting on foot.

Lots of folks here seem against it. I woner how many of them hunt deer or elk from an ATV in the states. Every year I see more and more of that activity. What you all consider unethical in Africa would also be unethical in the states. I won't allow an ATV in my elk camp because of the way I ave seen them abused. People running all over the country. People chasing game on them. People going into areas closed to motorized vehicles with ATV's. But then hunting off a motorized vehicle is illegal in Colorado, but lots of folks do it. Not illegal in Africa.

I think the use of ATV's in America are a lot more unethical than taking an occasional shot from a vehicle in Africa. My rationale is that it is legal over there, but not where I hunt in the states. I guess when you see hundreds of ATV's rolling down the highways on trailers during elk season, you lose respect fo the guys that won't walk their game up.

I can honestly say I never had a PH that wouldn't stalk on foot if you stressed that is the way you want to hunt.

My 2 cents worth.

Mac

quote:

ON SHOOTING: "I don't care about the animal that gets shot. He's dead. I care about the rest of the herd, not to upset them any more than necessary. The object is to take one animal with the least disturbance to the herd."

Sounds like he's more interested in making sure his paying (& tipping) client is successful. Disturbed animals can be tricky to hunt after all..no sense in making life difficult...Got to think of that next pay day..

quote:

ON ETHICAL HUNTING: "There is no such thing.

I wonder how he feels about shooting animals in a pen?

It also strikes me that he does want a small thing like ethics to prevent his paying (& tipping?) client from getting a trophy...

I had thought of using Oleofse in Namibia. I guess I'll just keep looking.

465H&H

Die Ou Jagtuer,

The things you mention are not all hunting. Shooting driven pheasants is shooting not hunting. This is evident in the tiltle itself. You hunt pheasants with a dog, or with you or your buddy filling in for the dog by walking the thickets or the rows. Waterholes can go both ways in my view, depending on the circumstances. Dove "hunting" is not hunting but shooting when you are over sunflowers or corn, can be hunting later in the season when you are walking them up. A gathering of folks for the purpose of shooting doves over a harvested feild is called "a Dove Shoot." The others are definitely hunting.

For some examples:

Leopard baiting: This hard work, BTW. You must scout for leopard sign. Once you have found the spoor of a male, or have some other good reason, you must find the right tree. You need to find an appropriate blind site, prep the tree with that blind site in mind...for other spoor etc.

When you do get a male cat feeding you need to build the blind so that it blends with the surrounds...

It is a team effort the whole way, at least it should be.

Turkey calling: You need first to learn to use one, or better, several, calls. Then you must scout for roosting locations or feeding or strutting ground. Then you need to either get a gobler gobling to find him or hear him and get set up in a position that he will at least hopefully come to...

Deer at a trail crossing: First you need to find a good, current trail crossing and determine best you can when the trails are likely to be used .Then you need to set up with the wind in mind....

Bow hunting out of a tree stand: You need to know where the deer are likely to be and when. Random tree picking doesn't cut it with a rifle, let alone a bow, with its restricted range. Once you have found a good trail or trail crossing or whatever you need to select your tree. Again the prevailing wind will be a heavy limiting factor, also your range...

The common thread here is that the preponderance of the hunt occurs prior to the pulling of the trigger. Same as with spot and stalk or tracking. Not the same with shooting from a truck it seems to me.

WRT shooting from a canoe vs from a truck, well, you need to paddle the canoe along to find your game, but you don't push the truck!

The question of whether or not this way of doing it or that way of doing it is right is a purely personal one, so long as it is within the law. Same as to whether the experience is personally rewarding and satisfying.

That this particular outfitter looking to disturb the herd as little as possible, well great! That's his goal. He has a vested, long term intrest in his herds of game. Your goal should be to have a great hunt.

JPK

Learned a lot on this post. My own experience is that besides Zim, both Tanzania and SA have PH's that won't let you shoot from the vehicle. The reason was that they didn't want the game to get spooked by the vehicle or sound of it and associate it with the shooting. Sounded reasonable at the time.

For myself, I enjoy the walking in the bush, tracking, and stalking of the game as much as anything. Nothing as exciting as following a buffalo, well maybe an elephant.

But Saeed probably is right, do what the conditions and hunting format allows. I don't like hunting in swamps .

Dak

Ethics in my opinion means:
1) within the law
2) within what your peers would deem appropiate
3) within what your hosts deem appropriate
4) without undue cruelty towards the animal hunted/ his group (most important, IMO)
However, I do think that a visiting sportsman should experience all the tracking, thorns, dust, steep hills etc. of a real stalk. He/ she is paying good money to come to Africa, and IMO is being cheated out of a fuller hunting experience. I hunted with a very experienced American last year, also in the Karoo, which for those that do not know, can be pretty flat and featureless, and he did not shoot one single animal (out of 14) from a vehicle. According to him, it was his best safari so far, by far. Maybe I am old fasioned, but this is the way I like to offer my hunting.

I think I understand Gary and I also prefer to stalk animals, also I think that there are animals and "animals"...

I don't have problem to hunt pigs at night with a spotlight from a truck if the oportunity arise, but I will prefer not do it with other ones...

L

quote:

With ethics, the fundamental question is, "Where do you draw the line?" I guess we each have to decide, unless the law dictates, and then live with the choice.

quote:

Ethics in my opinion means:
1) within the law

I am unsure as to why ethics has anything to do with the law.

If the law allowed you to use a claymore mine to hunt would it be ethical?

If you shot a deer out of season to feed your family it would be illegal but would it be unethical as well?

To me ethics are a personal code and have nothing to do with the law.

Just had a quick scan...I was sure this one might get passionate!

I think Karl S two posts above has summed it perfectly and concisely.

Its not my bag, I prefer to walk but have taken game from a vehicle in the name of meat getting, colecting bait for lion research or culling...I guess its all in a name.

Thanks Karl.
Cheers

Everyone to his own desire. I don't hunt waterfowl because I dislike being cold and wet. Does this make me less a 'Sportsman'. I was not aware shooting from or using a truck as a rest was illegal in Zimbabwe. In 8 years of hunting there I saw it done as a matter of course. I have no for or against points. It's merely what you are comfortable with. I didn't hunt coons as a kid cause I didn't like tripping and running around in the dark, but for those that like it it's fine with me. Ethics is defined as a set moral values. You have yours I have mine. Hopefully they are similar but if you don't try to force your's on me I promise not to try and force mine on you.

Why not ban vehicles altogether from use in hunting? Vehicles artificially expand a hunter's ability to spot more game by extending his "reach" to a much wider area in much less time than he could possibly cover on foot. That's just not cricket, old boy . . . is it?

But wait a minute, you say . . . that's going too bloody far! Time is always a factor on a modern safari. No one can go on a three or six month safari anymore. So we need vehicles to extend our reach. Okay, so why can't we shoot from them? I think that, under almost all circumstances, it's fine to do so. Maybe not preferable, but fine nonetheless.

Unless the game is accustomed to vehicles to the point of being tame around them, or unless the vehicle is used to run an animal down--I have no problem with anyone who wants to shoot game from one. I have done it myself.

To me, it's the same as standing on my own two feet, or if the vehicle is used as a vantage point, the same as using a large boulder or a tree. I much prefer stalking on foot, but under the right circumstances--a sudden or last chance opportunity, or the need for a higher and better shooting angle than the natural terrain offers--I will gladly shoot from a vehicle.

It's important to remember that laws banning shooting game animals from vehicles generally date from the days when motor vehicles first showed up in the hunting fields. These laws were a reaction, or over-reaction, to the fairly common practice at that time (in some circles) of using hunting cars not just to spot game animals, but to pursue them. Some hunters would use their cars to run the animals down, sometimes to the point of exhaustion. Then they would shoot them, sometimes even from the moving car.

In some ways, this practice was a natural transition from hunting and pursuing game on horseback. However, with a motor vehicle, which is obviously much faster and never tires, the advantages are too great.

Rather than simply banning running animals down with vehicles, game departments found it easier simply to ban any and all shooting from any and all vehicles.

From there shooting from vehicles has assumed "unethical" dimensions, mostly in the minds of the dogmatic, "holier than thou" crowd, who make a great stink about it when it really is not and should not be an issue these days.

Hunting is not collecting. The goal isn't merely a dead animal. If its hunting you should fail sometimes, even often. And that is fail to get off a shot, not fail to connect. Time running out, sudden oportunity, height advantage, what ever, makes no difference for me. It doesn't amount to hunting in my view, providing little reward or satisfaction.

Kyakers post mentions shooting from a truck to get meat for food, bait for lion research. Thats shooting. The goal is a dead animal, only. Nothing wrong with that goal or result so long as you don't confuse it with hunting, which should test al lot more that your range skills.

Also, I don't buy into this non judgemental stuff either. If you did it legally, fine, thats the minimum standard. But if you did it right, you'll earn alot more respect from me - and I bet most here too.

Earning my respect shouldn't really mean a hill of beans to you - but I'll also bet you would find your experience more rewarding and satisfying as well.

KarlS's post had it right about being cheated or cheating yourself out of the better part of the experience.

JPK

Is it wise to use a steady rest or higher vantage point for a more precise clearer shot?... Shooting stick,tree trunk,rock, anothers shoulder, vehicle rollbar,... whats the difference?
lets see....Do some of the guys who decide that they wont shoot from a truck also happen to use spotscopes,RScopes,binoculars,Rfinders, latest high intensity loadings?
If they are so traditional,and to be true to their own principles, then all they need is open sights, an adequate moderate velocity round, and to get within range of their open sight capability, yes? I would imagine that from the impression they give,that they would prefer to look the animal in the eye unaided,"for the real African experience" they tend to sprout about,rather than through a Leupold, yet most use the scope,then state the use of a truck is unethical. If your on foot, using ascope to tag an animal at 200yds that you know would require you to stalk to 100yds to use open sights, that makes you unethical like the guy shooting from the truck does it not, cause your too lazy to stalk the extra 100yds?
It should not matter if you dont bag the animal cause you cannot stalk it to 100yds, cause its about "hunting" not the actual kill, right?
NO ,but you like your scopes dont you, and if you can vapourise something at 300yds on foot,then that makes you more "ethically Proud"cause you did it 50yds walk from the truck and in your mind you must be "better"than the guy who shoots something with open sights at 50yds from a truck.

JPK and Others,

After you've rowed the Atlantic and walked to your hunting grounds, then crawled up the spoor to your ultimate game animal, and killed it at arm's length with a pointy stick, then, MAYBE, you can presume to preach.

Okay, would-be Hiawathas?

As for the better part of the "experience," well, that cannot, in my view, be divorced from the facts of the experience, in the midst of the experience, while living and breathing the experience.

Be as judgmental as you wish, BTW. I have said that I prefer stalking on foot, as anyone would, I think. That does not mean that I disdain, or refuse, or condemn those who take, shots that would otherwise be impossible, or that would otherwise never be taken at all, if not taken from a vehicle.

Again, assuming that the game is not tame when viewed from a vehicle or pursued to exhaustion by the vehicle.

You may absolutely feel free to pass on the trophy of a lifetime, because you are above shooting from a vehicle.

Hell, yes! Ignore that 65 inch kudu, that 100 pound elephant, that 50 inch buff, because you just happened around a turn in a dry, sandy river bed, and surprised him as much as you, right smack where he was standing, and where your DRIVER stopped the Toyota. There he stood, looking right at you, big as life, on the verge of bolting, and not about to wait for you to back up, get out and put your best stalk on him.

There and then, if you don't stand quickly, and shoot more than quickly, you can be proud of yourself, I suppose . . .

But don't kid yourself, your preference and your pride are just that, yours and yours alone. Your preference and your pride.

Not a legal or ethical or moral mandate.

End of rant.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
JPK and Others,

After you've rowed the Atlantic and walked to your hunting grounds, then crawled up the spoor to your ultimate game animal, and killed it at arm's length with a pointy stick, then, MAYBE, you can presume to preach.

Respectfully, I think you make a pretty thin argument here. Getting somewhere to hunt with modern transportation and choosing to shoot from a vehicle are hardly synonymous to my mind. Makes for a dramatic argument, but not one that really holds water, I don't think.

quote:

That does not mean that I disdain, or refuse, or condemn those who take, shots that would otherwise be impossible, or that would otherwise never be taken at all, if not taken from a vehicle.

And I guess that's the crux of it; everyone has their own hunting standards and ethics.

quote:

You may absolutely feel free to pass on the trophy of a lifetime, because you are above shooting from a vehicle.

Naturally, I won't know for certain until faced with a situation like that, but I know this: I won't be bursting with pride or boastful of any hunting skill or prowess should I find ever pulling the trigger myself in your scenario, as IMO there is no hunting skill involved. Marksmanship skill, OK I'll maybe buy. But hunting? Don't kid yourselves guys, it doesn't take a set of fine-tuned hunting skills to take a seat as a passenger in a vehicle.

quote:

There he stood, looking right at you, big as life, on the verge of bolting, and not about to wait for you to back up, get out and put your best stalk on him.

There and then, if you don't stand quickly, and shoot more than quickly, you can be proud of yourself, I suppose . . .

I very much like to think I would be proud of myself for *not* shooting. Maybe not then , but later I imagine I'd feel good about exercising restraint and sticking to a standard I set and stand by for *myself*. I respect the game enough to want to always give them the chance to use their natural defenses as I hunt them. In your dusty road scenario, other than being handy with a rifle I wonder, what hunting skills do you believe were utilized?

quote:

But don't kid yourself, your preference and your pride are just that, yours and yours alone. Your preference and your pride.

Exactly. And while I'm not dead set against anyone choosing to do so, I'm certainly not ashamed to say to any man that I personally just won't do it.

Mrlexma,

Just to make sure you're not taking any personal offense that was not directly intended - and none was - The "you" in my prior post wasn't intended to be you personally but anyone, call it you universal, for discussion and thought by any reader.

If a fellow is pleased with his hunt, good for him. But if he did it the right way, so much the better of him for it.

I would love to have the time to correspond with Kerr and Downey and take my sailing yacht through the new Suez Canal, being sure to keep that amazing development, Nitrocellulose gun and rifle powder, dry and stable.

Somewhere you gotta draw the line. Planes, trains and automobiles are for getting you to the location from which your hunt can begin, not end.

So far as my passing on the 100pd elephant...from the back of the truck not being a legal, moral or ethical imperetive, I'm not so sure. Certainly in some locations it is a legal imperative - shooting from truck is illegal. In my view it is unethical and immoral to knowingly ignore rational law.

But more importantly, lets just say that I failed myself and cheated myself of the hunt for the 100 pounder, no matter how it may have turned out, and instead shot him as he appears in your scenario. Would it be rewarding or satisfying, hell no! Would I loose the time at every glance at the ivory, reliving the hussle and hump and hardship? The trevails or even perhaps the unexpected ease of a fairchase hunt? Would I be eager to tell the story to my buddies back home, to my son? Not me and not many I bet!

No difference between the accidental elephant and the intended impala.

JPK

KG,

Thank you for your careful response.

Which response indicates that you are another, perhaps even the latest, in a long line of masters of the hypothetical, expert theorists who would or wouldn't do whatever their (or my ) imagination may conjure because of supposed and so-called scruples that have never been tested.

But hypotheticals and theories are not reliable predictors of what the hypothesizers and theorists may or may not do when they are faced with reality, in real situations, in real, blood-pumping life!

And in any event, you only have to look at yourself in the mirror every morning, and--lucky for you--not me or anyone else, so do as you please when you round that corner in the sand river--mais vous devez le faire sans regret, mon ami, sans tout regret!

JPK, as a general policy, I refuse to take offense except when it is specifically and clearly intended, just as I do not give offense unintentionally. So, no foul.

But you are kidding yourself if you believe that most of hunting is skill.

IT IS NOT!

NINETY FIVE PERCENT of hunting, especially African dangerous game hunting, in the 21st century, is MONEY, and of the rest, ONE PERCENT is skill and FOUR PERCENT is PURE LUCK!

All the rest is boasting and bullshit. Sorry to be blunt, but that is my nature.

I think Kamo Gari's post merely recognizes that he realizes that he is mortal and not infallible.

My French is getting a bit rusty as moral relativism makes much of europe irrelevant, but I think I got the gist of it.

The toughest judge of anyone who even remotely aspires to be what the judgemental would call a man better be himself. Otherwise he won't make the first cut.

JPK

Mrlexma,

Responding to you most recent post, since we are out of sinc here:

I don't entirely agree. Wouldn't deny that money can be a big influence. But money doesn't, or shouldn't at least, buy results, only better opportunities. Your numbers only add up to 95%, and I'm not sure why but you forgot patience, endurance, persistence, practice. On the skill, I will argue a hell of a lot more than one percentage. But even leaving the skill out of it, when you shoot from the truck you have removed the neccesity for the physical and mental discipline that are or at least should be critical.

Also, if you want to see your cynicism drop into the tank and your apreciation of what a great hunt consist of perk back up, try hunting for a bunch of tuskless cows. $'s are not a hugeley determinitve factor on whether you will succede. But endurance, persistence and patience are. Maybe courage, if you find the right opportuity. Not much of anything significant required to ride around in a truck.

JPk

Personally I have never enjoyed shooting game when even spoted from the vehicle.
I enjoy hunting from foot and appreciate the hunt more.
For me, enjoyment is everything in the hunt, so why should I do somthing I don't enjoy especially when it cost so much.
Sure a good looking trophy is nice, the ulimate goal is the taking of a animal.
I just do what I enjoy.
Happy hunting,
AC.

When hunting in Africa the usual order for me has been tracker in the lead followed by the PH followed by me. That's more like following than hunting. If walking is the primary skill involved with hunting it's not very challenging just tiring. Hunting here in US I am usually alone and dependent only on my own skill to find and take game but in Africa the skill is generally always in the person of the trackers and the PH in my experience. I actually end up being only the shooter. Here again that is only my appraisal of African hunting but I have been on 8 Safaris and feel I have a pretty good idea of what takes place. Watching dangerous game on outdoor life the other night I see the same thing being filmed. On the following program I see an Elk hunt being filmed in US and lo and behold it's the same scenario with the guide leading and the hunter (shooter ) following. I have yet to read, see, or experience the hunter doing the tracking ,leading, shooting here or in Africa. The final 'stalk' may require a little stealth but when you are 72 years old 6'1" and 260lbs you don't 'stealth' too well so you take whatever shot you can get with the aid of whatever rest you can use. Just one persons observations but they are mine and define my hunting experiences and satisfaction and I don't let anyone else decide for me what I get pleasure from.

quote:

Sounds like he's more interested in making sure his paying (& tipping) client is successful. Disturbed animals can be tricky to hunt after all..no sense in making life difficult...Got to think of that next pay day..

This post comes closest to the truth behind Oelofse's statements. PHs who pressure clients to hunt from vehicles, or who go along with clients who prefer to hunt this way, are VERY cognizant of the monetary consequences: more trophy fees racked up in the shortest possible time without the need for anyone, particularly the "PH", to break out a sweat. If this isn't obvious, let me point out that you see more game per hour moving at speed; the game is somewhat less likely to spook because they are used to vehicles particulary on ranches (in this respect the man is honest); the shot distance is likely to be shorter; and the shot steadier (client has no elevated heartbeat and has a steady rest). It's quicker to load the poor beast onto the truck so you can be off to find another in a matter of minutes. Thus more dead animals per hunt day, translates to more dollars on the bill at the end of the hunt.

Here's why you are getting short-changed as a hunter if you do this: first, your best trophies (older animals) are NOT the ones that stand and stare at the vehicle on the whole; you miss out on the fresh air and good healthy exercise that most people associate with hunting, instead getting a sore ass and breathing a lot of dust and diesel fumes; you don't get the opportunity to observe the birds, insects, tracks, bleached bones, trees, grasses, nuts and snakes up close, all of which make the African bush such a rich and rewarding place to spend your precious vacation time and discretionary money; you miss the thrill of spotting an animal in it's natural surroundings and observing it before it sees you; the bigger thrill of creeping up undetected to make the shot; you don't experience the "all senses at 120%" feeling that is part of what is commonly called a fair chase hunt, including an elevated heartbeat; and worst of all, you don't have as many "close calls" where you get made and the stalk ends without a shot, making the ultimately successful stalk all the more memorable, and depriving you of the campfire tale of the "big one that got away".

"PH's" who practice this should be reclassified as HCD's (hunting car drivers). It's nothing less than greed and laziness on their part.

Having said all this, if my options were to hunt from a car or not at all (for example if I were wheelchair-bound), I would hunt from a car (or better yet a blind or rock or tree...). But as long as my legs will carry me, I will hunt on foot, on my knees, and on my belly, as the creator intended, and not from some smelly noisy bucking dusty clanking blood-soaked truck.

And yes, I do hunt with a bow at times, mostly a recurve without sights. I have had birds sit on my head. (That's sit without an h). Squirrels jump on my leg. And deer literally crane their necks to smell me from a couple of feet away. All moments and memories that I will never forget.

That's where I stand on this issue. Any questions?

I see that I have not made myself clear, or perhaps that I have just been misunderstood. Zim, you are right on the "money" where my comments on "money" are concerned. Again, the rest is boasting and bullshit.

And I stand by my percentages (with a slight arithmetical correction ). It is true that skill is important, perhaps the most important one percent of the entire gambit.

But assuming a fair bit of skill with a rifle and the will to use it under trying circumstances, which I would suggest that most who post here possess, the only other factors, and the far more crucial ones, are money and luck.

Money you can get by dint of hard work, judiciously applied, or even by choosing your parents well!

Luck you can pray for your entire life, and even wish and plead and hope for upon a falling star while clenching a fistful of four leafed clovers, but still curse, and never find, until that day . . . when you round the bend in that sand river in your Toyota . . . .

As for tuskless cows . . . well, here again I guess that we will just have to disagree. Not for me. Not to degrade anyone else's view or experience of it, but not for me. Again, not wrong, necessarily, but not for me.

And to re-emphasize, I do not mean to suggest that shooting from a vehicle is the pinnacle of achievement, by any means.

What I am suggesting is that all, or at least some, of the "holier than thouists" out there are not . . . oh, hell, I've already said it and won't say it again.

Now, I will leave the rest of this discussion to the "Day Shift."

Guys, just get off the truck and make a stalk, you will enjoy it a hell of a lot more. I went on a hunt in Northern Australia after water Buff and the so called "Guide" drove around and would spot buff and say "dont get out you will spook them. Shoot from the truck".
I refuse to hang a trophy on my wall if i actually havn't HUNTED it. I insisted that he let me out of the vehicle and a found and stalked a buff on my own. Seriously guys if you think hunting from a vehicle was enjoyable, you have realy missed the main attraction. The hunt itself. Shooting from a vehicle is exactly that 'shooting' , not to be confused with Hunting, which is done by (IMO) physical means!

Sorry if I have offended, but i think that the people that have shot from Vehicles are trying to justify doing so.