quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Let's see, where to start...Loaded established African PH buys high fenced zoo in South Texas, donates livestock to be killed on tv for publicity, show brings in war vet sniper to take out the velvet farm bull elk at 100yds standing on a road in South Texas. Sniper misses 850lb bull standing broadside @ 100yds and proceeds to throw a temper tantrum blaming others for his botched attempt to snipe stall bull. Snipers behaviour gets questioned on worldwide hunting forum, poster is quickly crucified for questioning anything that a vet has done while every other "vet" on the forum proceeds to beat their chest and explain how they (and other vets) are superior to all others on forum who are not vets. Damn, guess I should have put on my profile that I was a vet, or black,

The best post so far on this thread, and so true.

And with all due respect to all the vets here, I bet we have individuyals who claim to be vets, and the truth is far from that.

One of the unfortunate results of the Internet.

Saeed's bet is solid.

As I recall the last census had about 80% (five times) more claiming to have served in Vietnam than the number who actually did...

Regards,
Emory

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
Being a vet never excuses you for conduct unbecoming. Even a decorated vet. Barring that, all vets are heros. Given that Brett made an observation of ones behavior, you can't really give him any crap.

John

Ditto - glad he served and sacrificed, but it was his choice to serve and to act like a fool.

All military personnel are my heroes. I deeply respect and appreciate what they did and do for our country. But they are all human and as such have some human frailties. I also have no problem with him missing the shot as we all have been there or if we haven't missed then we lie about it. But we also expect certain behavior standards from our heroes. Lutrel's tantrum and blaming others for his miss surely didn't show him in the best light.

465H&H

I tuned in after the show started...didn't know who the hunters were. Was amazed that Jeff Rann would paticipate in this particular event and equally amazed at the bizare behavior of the hunter shooting at the elk. I decided to avoid this show in the future.

Does anyone know for sure the 777 is totally high fenced? I can attest that it didn't have a single high fence about 15 years ago when I hunted there. Just wondering if things have changed there?

Didn't see the show, but have all the respect in the World for our vets. Too bad TV producers may have put this Vet in a bad light. Maybe blame the sources not the participants?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

There is an interesting book review in this morning's Barron's. The book is called Startup Nation, and it profiles Israeli entrepreneurs. Israel has more companies listed on the Nasdaq than all of Europe (but the review neglects to add Europe has several strong stock markets of its own). The ratio of startups to citizens is about 1: 1850, I think the highest in the world.

The theory behind this is military conscription. I don't want to rehash the whole story, but it is interesting given the military service debate going on here.

One other point I would like to make: when I was a company commander my 1SG had just arrived from Delta Force. We essentially took over that company at the same time. He was the most modest, yet the most impressive man I have ever met. He was taken hostage in Beirut in the early 80s; we were quite close but I didn't know about that until he told us about it in a code of conduct training class nearly a year after we joined the company. His name is Doug Carron. He was a CSM in the 82d during Desert 1.

One of my hunting buddies later went on to Delta Force as well. His name is Lee Van Arsdale; you can read what he has done on Wikipedia, but he was involved in the battle of Mogadishu. He has a Silver Star. They don't hand those out like crackers.

Both of these guys are the complete antithesis of the chest-thumping, "been there, done that" kind of person. Very modest. Very impressive.

Jeff charges enough that he can afford to put up with some client shenanigans!

465H&H

I may have overreacted a bit. I don't mean to imply that we combat veterans are a superior race, just one that had made a commitment that might have cost us our lives for something we believe in. America's freedom. We were willing to die for our country if asked to.

You guys are just about all patriots, and I would expect nothing less than a willingness to die for your country if it came to that someday. We went to other countries to defend Liberty so that a war would never be fought here.

Those of you who have hunted Dangerous Game have a taste of that, especially if you have gone into dense jungle after something that would kill you if given the chance. You live by your training, knowing that, in my case, your man killing skills are what keeps and kept you alive.

The only thing positive about the MS videos, they give you a taste of close up "kill or be killed". If we could get 465H&H to talk about some of his Elephant hunts...

God Bless each of us and our families in this new year of 2010


Rich

Bless you too Rich, I'm not a veteran, but my oldest son is in the 3rd Ranger Bat, one combat tour so far, he starts Ranger School (the winter class) this week. Though if he muffs a shot, he will get come crap from his Dad ... Appreciate every one of you, particularly the combat vets...




Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
God Bless each of us and our families in this new year of 2010


Rich

You too Rich.

for those of you not familiar with MJines, he and I go back and forth at times. We're friends, but we have some differences of opinion...

And, the man is an Elephant killing machine. There are several villages in Zimbabwe that have been renamed after him and dozens of babies. I think he feeds more people there than UNICEF.

Rich

Code4

Now you have done it. We are going to now suffer through another rendition of how ISS won the Vietnam war and how he killed a bear when he was only 3.
In the US you are not supposed to ever call out a vet for his/her conduct. We are all respectful to them for their service, even that legend of sacrifice Pvt Slovik. Without them we would be living in a socialist or worse country.

Oh yeah we already are. But I am sure it would be worse without their sacrifice.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
for those of you not familiar with MJines, he and I go back and forth at times. We're friends, but we have some differences of opinion...

And, the man is an Elephant killing machine. There are several villages in Zimbabwe that have been renamed after him and dozens of babies. I think he feeds more people there than UNICEF.

Rich

It's the babies over there that look like me that have me worried.

Differences of opinion, openly expressed and respected (perhaps with a dash of humor) is what makes life interesting. I rather enjoy the give and take.

quote:

In the US you are not supposed to ever call out a vet for his/her conduct

So they are supposed to be able to behave any way they want, and not be critisized, just because they were in combat????

Did Mr. Luttrel do something illegal? Or are you all just complaining that his reactions and actions didn't meet the approval of YOUR high and mighty way of doing things? That's what I thought!!

I am sure none of you detractors have ever reacted to a missed shot or botched hunt in a way not considered proper? No cussing, stomping around, acting child like? Yea, right. You just were not on TV so that makes it OK.

And how about you green with envy ones out there that can't stand that Jeff Rann, a successful, competant PH has bought property and is enjoying it in his Stateside time? Get real people.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

If I am allowed to throw in .02? How many guys on here have been the shooter for a TV show? Surely CB, Dave Fulson, Tim Herald, etc. could shed some light on this but it seems VERY frustrating for the shooter, the cameraman and the hunted to all get lined up for the PERFECT camera shot. When I'm hunting and I see the animal I want to shoot, I shoot it!!! If I had to WAIT on the camera man to say "OK you can shoot when you want" I would not be focused as I should be. Bottom line, it seems a lot more difficult to pull off the perfect camera/TV show shot than it appears. Maybe.....this is why we see a lot of high fenced semi domesticated animals shot on TV shows....just makes for easier filming. (This is not intended to start another fist fight).

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:

quote:

In the US you are not supposed to ever call out a vet for his/her conduct

So they are supposed to be able to behave any way they want, and not be critisized, just because they were in combat????

No. Being a veteran or an active duty is a choice just like working at the car factory or for the local dairy. It is a job with higher risks that most of us are ever exposed to. It is a duty when our society is in time of crisis - but it is not an excuse for whatever behaviour someone chooses to exhibit.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
There is an interesting book review in this morning's Barron's. The book is called Startup Nation, and it profiles Israeli entrepreneurs. Israel has more companies listed on the Nasdaq than all of Europe (but the review neglects to add Europe has several strong stock markets of its own). The ratio of startups to citizens is about 1: 1850, I think the highest in the world.

The theory behind this is military conscription. I don't want to rehash the whole story, but it is interesting given the military service debate going on here.

One other point I would like to make: when I was a company commander my 1SG had just arrived from Delta Force. We essentially took over that company at the same time. He was the most modest, yet the most impressive man I have ever met. He was taken hostage in Beirut in the early 80s; we were quite close but I didn't know about that until he told us about it in a code of conduct training class nearly a year after we joined the company. His name is Doug Carron. He was a CSM in the 82d during Desert 1.

One of my hunting buddies later went on to Delta Force as well. His name is Lee Van Arsdale; you can read what he has done on Wikipedia, but he was involved in the battle of Mogadishu. He has a Silver Star. They don't hand those out like crackers.

Both of these guys are the complete antithesis of the chest-thumping, "been there, done that" kind of person. Very modest. Very impressive.

you mean like a certain poster from the norhtwest??

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Code4

Now you have done it. We are going to now suffer through another rendition of how ISS won the Vietnam war and how he killed a bear when he was only 3.

I got it! ISS reminds me of Walter Sobchek from the movie "The Big Lebowski"! Lotsa bluster, lotsa blather and in the end, probably not a golfer.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Did Mr. Luttrel do something illegal? Or are you all just complaining that his reactions and actions didn't meet the approval of YOUR high and mighty way of doing things? That's what I thought!!

I am sure none of you detractors have ever reacted to a missed shot or botched hunt in a way not considered proper? No cussing, stomping around, acting child like? Yea, right. You just were not on TV so that makes it OK.

And how about you green with envy ones out there that can't stand that Jeff Rann, a successful, competant PH has bought property and is enjoying it in his Stateside time? Get real people.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Not on TV so it makes ok?

Absolutely!

When you are a private person you are free from scrutiny (for the most part). If I act like a child after flubbing a shot, I may be an ass, but I'm not garnering potentially negative reaction to a brand (my show, and myself). Nobody is sponsoring me or hiring me to hawk their wares etc. If they were then my childish actions would take a new light. It's not illegal to screw cocktail waitresses (albeit morally bankrupt), but how did that work for Tiger? It's not illegal (albeit unethical) to induce charges but that sure gets Mr. Sullivan alot of attention that isn't all good. These people are subject to critical analysis because they are a business, that show is a business, they are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart and good for them, I like to make money too.

When you are a business or in the public eye, you are no longer free from scrutiny and you will be scrutinized ala Craig Boddington, Mr. Rann, Mark Sullivan and Wayne Van Zwoll Etc. Etc.

When you are a product, like this show, you will be measured against your competitors. Chevy versus Ford, Winchester versus Weatherby etc.

As far as Jeff Rann goes, I'm very happy for him. It is always nice to see someone do well doing what they love. Hell with what I suspect he paid an acre for that place, if he ever wants a California division, I've got a place to sell him.

Wow!!! I make a post on new year's evening based on my observations from 4 minutes of a hunting show, party up back in Ohio, and then get caught in the marathon from hell in missed flight connections with Continental Airlines and this is what I return to.

Where do I start.........

1. Thanks to all who gave me the benefit of the doubt for not being a butt! I'd like to think anyways that I'm usually not. That said had I seen this earlier I would have diffused this topic.

2. I am not familiar with the show or it's "theme" hence I didn't even know the name. I also did not watch the whole episode in question. I just happened to turn it on at the "right" or "wrong" time depending on your outlook on that one. I then promptly turned it off after said incident due to one the incident and two my family showing up for a new years party. That said I was not aware of Mr. Luttrell being a seal or his service record.

3. I am not in the service nor have I ever been. That is one of my FEW regrets thus far in my short life, but I serve now in a different capacity and I think that is where I am needed. My first choice was the Airforce Academy. I was nominated by my US rep and high in admitions, but ultimately denied as I am dislexic and they will not allow anyone with learning disabilities. So I went to Ohio State and proceeded on to Chiropractic College.

4. I am fully 130% aware and greatful for everything I have and know who to thank for that. I try to thank vets when I can. I worked in the Buffalo VA during my residency and have many vets that I treat in my practice. My family has been in every American war up to the Persian Gulf. I grew up idolizing my grandfather because one he introduced me to the outdoors and two was a copilot for a B17 in WW2. I would sit and listen to his stories for as long as he cared to tell them (which in hind sight after his passing was never long or frequent enough). My best friend is a Sea Bee in the Navy and I have many more friends in the armed services.

5. As to Mr. Luttrell's behavior I quite frankly don't care if he's the pope! You are accountable for your actions and although I certainly have a great deal of respect for him due to his actions in service that does not in any way change the fact that his actions were an abismal display of sportsmanship by a fellow hunter representing us all on national TV!

6. Although Mr. Luttrell became the focus of this thread that was not my intent. I was simply pointing out that if I were Jeff Rann I'd rather be back in the Okavango!

7. Again: A happy and prosperous new year to all!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
There is an interesting book review in this morning's Barron's. The book is called Startup Nation, and it profiles Israeli entrepreneurs. Israel has more companies listed on the Nasdaq than all of Europe (but the review neglects to add Europe has several strong stock markets of its own). The ratio of startups to citizens is about 1: 1850, I think the highest in the world.

The theory behind this is military conscription. I don't want to rehash the whole story, but it is interesting given the military service debate going on here.

One other point I would like to make: when I was a company commander my 1SG had just arrived from Delta Force. We essentially took over that company at the same time. He was the most modest, yet the most impressive man I have ever met. He was taken hostage in Beirut in the early 80s; we were quite close but I didn't know about that until he told us about it in a code of conduct training class nearly a year after we joined the company. His name is Doug Carron. He was a CSM in the 82d during Desert 1.

One of my hunting buddies later went on to Delta Force as well. His name is Lee Van Arsdale; you can read what he has done on Wikipedia, but he was involved in the battle of Mogadishu. He has a Silver Star. They don't hand those out like crackers.

Both of these guys are the complete antithesis of the chest-thumping, "been there, done that" kind of person. Very modest. Very impressive.

you mean like a certain poster from the norhtwest??

When I was a newly minted 2LT my platoon sgt was a Vietman vet, as were most of the NCOs that contributed to the foundation of my military ethos.

I respect them greatly. No one is perfect, me included.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Did Mr. Luttrel do something illegal? Or are you all just complaining that his reactions and actions didn't meet the approval of YOUR high and mighty way of doing things? That's what I thought!!

I am sure none of you detractors have ever reacted to a missed shot or botched hunt in a way not considered proper? No cussing, stomping around, acting child like? Yea, right. You just were not on TV so that makes it OK.

And how about you green with envy ones out there that can't stand that Jeff Rann, a successful, competant PH has bought property and is enjoying it in his Stateside time? Get real people.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry, you make a good point that we can all get pissed off if we "blow it."

But I get really tired of the "you are just envious" argument often touted here. There are some people that I really respect and try to emulate. Mostly they are self made gazzillionares who love the outdoors (but that is not an exclusive rule). I really respect Jim and Dick Cabela. Henry Mills, who stared Mills Fleet Farm (go Packers!), and with whom I shared a camp in 2001 is another.

I don't think I have ever seen those I "envy" quoted or referred to on AR. So while I don't offer any criticism of Rand per se, niether do I wish I were him.

Gentlemen, is there anyone on the PH outfitter list you can't find a way to trash?

Damn! There's not a PH in Africa who is any more sqeeky clean that Jeff Rann! My God, I think if God started up a safari service, or wrote a book he would be in the garbage bin before the days end here!

...............

quote:

Originally posted by Emory:
Saeed's bet is solid.

As I recall the last census had about 80% (five times) more claiming to have served in Vietnam than the number who actually did...

Regards,
Emory

At last count the boathouse at Hereford ( ) seats 436,238 men of which approximately 147,800 abseiled into the Iranian embassy from the roof during the siege of 1980.....

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

At last count the boathouse at Hereford ( ) seats 436,238 men of which approximately 147,800 abseiled into the Iranian embassy from the roof during the siege of 1980.....

What colour is that boathouse again?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Gentlemen, is there anyone on the PH outfitter list you can't find a way to trash?

Damn! There's not a PH in Africa who is any more sqeeky clean that Jeff Rann! My God, I think if God started up a safari service, or wrote a book he would be in the garbage bin before the days end here!

...............

Mac,

If you read the thread in its entirity you find very few comments that could be construed negatively towards Jeff Rann. Certainly none from me. I wouldn't say I'm jealous as I'm not a jealous person, but I'm certainly envious of the life he's lead! Unfortunately the bulk of this discusion swung off into never never land with talk about Mr. Luttrell. So for all concerned I was not intending to trash a vet or Mr. Rann if that's how anyone construed my first post. I was only trying to point out how if I were Jeff Rann I'd rather be in the Okavango! See you all at Reno!

Brett

Ideally, the goals of the hunter and the PH are identical: a great hunt, a fine shot, and a clean kill. The film-maker, cameraman, director and producer have an entirely different set of priorities. They are, in the end, simply not to be trusted. They own your image and will make the best use of it – whether their goal is to make a point (the antis) or to sell their product.

Whether you are portrayed as a hero or a goat is of no concern to the media, other than what will best serve their purposes. I have not seen the subject show, but whoever produced it and put it on the air should be the focus of the vitriol in this thread, not Luttrell and certainly not Jeff Rann.

Those of us who came to hunting later in life did not have the privilege of making mistakes with an interested elder looking over our shoulder. Luttrell was put in an awkward situation because the hunt was (apparently) taken over by the camera crew. And as a neophyte he was in no position to object. He already had enough to think about and he trusted (unfortunately) the people behind the camera.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

At last count the boathouse at Hereford ( ) seats 436,238 men of which approximately 147,800 abseiled into the Iranian embassy from the roof during the siege of 1980.....

What colour is that boathouse again?

Which one?

The one next to the mosque or the one by the tanning salon?

Good news everyone, this episode will re-air today on "The Outdoor Channell" (115) for those of you with Comcast @ 2pm cst, enjoy..

I just forced myself to endure the entire show. One of the most pathetic "hunting" shows, I have ever seen. They should all be embarrassed. I'll add it to the long list of "hunting" programs, I will never watch again. Good grief.

Jeff

I've seen the show three or four times, including the episode discussed in this thread. It is bad TV, period.

I did not know the story behind the story when I first saw it. I thought to myself, "Who is this guy and why is he on this show." The episiode was really bad and Marcus' behavior did nothing to make him very likeable or endearing to a viewing audience. Personally, I share Brett's opinions based on that episode. Marcus acted like a bozo and he did it in front of a camera knowing that the footage would find its way to TV. War hero or not, he acted like a bozo.

Fast forward a few months, and Marcus is on The Bucks of Tecomate with David Morris. Morris guides him to a couple of big deer in South Texas and Marcus seems genuinely appreciative of the experience, the hunt, and Morris' generosity.

However, the common thread was that in both cases Marcus did not come across as a TV-type personality. He may be a war hero and all that, but a TV host he is not. He is not very likeable, does not have any measurable hunting experience, and not is not believable as a big game hunter.

SL - Acting like a bozo to me is someone acting like a circus clown. Didn't see this from Marcus at all. Maybe some better characterization would better describe him?

SL you say Marcus is not a good "TV Host". I thought Rann and Morris were the "hosts"?

Give the guy some slack. He obviously does not have the hunting experience all you "super hunters" have. I am sure though at sometime in your lives you were just as much a "greenhorn" as he appears. At least the guy is back from a very bad situation trying to put his life back together and "yes" just maybe is trying to become a hunter.

SL - You say Marcus does not come across as a TV type personality. He has never professed to be as far as I know. I am sure you could do it the proper way and beome an instant star the first time out? Right?

SL - You state Marcus is not very likeable. You state this as a fact after only one second hand glimpse of the man on a TV program that has major flaw components. He may not be likeable to you but I am sure given a different situation and audience things might be a whole lot different.

SL - I hope someday we get the privilege to see you in action on a TV program.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

SL - I hope someday we get the privilege to see you in action on a TV program.

I can tell you that will not happen. I can talk to anybody in any situation, unless a camera is rolling. I would be a train wreck. I know this. I know my limits. I know that TV hosting is not in my skill set.

This is no different from the super-talented singer who decides that he/she wants to act. Or Michael Jordan, the greatest basketball player of all time, who decided he wanted to play baseball. How did that go? OJ Simpson crossed over to acting after football, how believable was that? Not everybody can do everything. No different with Marcus. War hero? Sure. TV personality? No way at this point.

Attack me if you like, but I know what I saw, it was real bad TV with Marcus as the chief offender.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
SL - Acting like a bozo to me is someone acting like a circus clown. Didn't see this from Marcus at all. Maybe some better characterization would better describe him?

SL you say Marcus is not a good "TV Host". I thought Rann and Morris were the "hosts"?

Give the guy some slack. He obviously does not have the hunting experience all you "super hunters" have. I am sure though at sometime in your lives you were just as much a "greenhorn" as he appears. At least the guy is back from a very bad situation trying to put his life back together and "yes" just maybe is trying to become a hunter.

SL - You say Marcus does not come across as a TV type personality. He has never professed to be as far as I know. I am sure you could do it the proper way and beome an instant star the first time out? Right?

SL - You state Marcus is not very likeable. You state this as a fact after only one second hand glimpse of the man on a TV program that has major flaw components. He may not be likeable to you but I am sure given a different situation and audience things might be a whole lot different.

SL - I hope someday we get the privilege to see you in action on a TV program.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Being on TV is not a very good place for somone who isn't a tv personality. I already pointed out in above post why he is subject to scrutiny.
Your argument is akin to us all talking about a doctor botching a surgery and being scolded because we couldn't perform the surgery any better. Surely, you can recognize this is a ridiculous angle to take.
If Safari Lawyer did a bad job as an attorney could he just say "hey I never professed to be an attorney, I just try cases"? Of course not. So what are you saying here? That he isn't a TV hunting show personality, just a guy on a TV hunting show?

I think that there might be an audience for someone like this guy. It will never include me. If you want to defend him because he is a war hero don't lose sight of the fact that he is putting himself on a different stage now and no one is going to ignore what they consider bad behavior. I also think it is bad behavior to call others "yappers and lap dogs".

Lutrell is a war hero and deserves our thanks for serving his country. However I have to wonder how a Navy SEAL did not keep his cool after missing a shot. Those guys are trained to keep cool under the worst kinds of pressure.

HORRIBLE!!!
What was the producer / editors of this show thinking ?

should have shot that elk when standing on the road. less distance to drag that way! i watched the show, and it's not for me and i wont be watching it again. mr Luttrell made a bad shot. but i might have done the same with people whistling and shouting at me. especially if i am not used to being in front of the camera. but in my opinion as the consumer, it's bad form (even for a decorated war vet) to "blame" someone else for a flubbed shot. that's probably better off on the cutting room floor.

and for the record, the hosts of the show are mr luttrell and the shotgunner. mr rand was merely the outfitter. (i would have to imagine with all the exotic game, the 777 ranch has pretty significant fences... but i dont know that for sure!)