click here and smile!!!!

Very nice pocket t-shirts...jorge

All the thread says is that the animals were killed with Garrett ammo. Doesn't say how - they could have choked to death on it.

Am I missing something with the comment on very nice pocket t-shirts? Probably.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Am I missing something with the comment on very nice pocket t-shirts? Probably.

Me too....

I knew I had good reasons not to go to the levergun forum.

Are you gentlemen saying that one cannot kill these animals with a lever action rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Are you gentlemen saying that one cannot kill these animals with a lever action rifle?

Hey Saeed.....do you use one for buffalo?

No I don't.

Neither do I use a double, because I have always used a bolt action rifle, so I use a bold rifle for all my hunting.

I would have no problems hunting any of the mentioned animals with a lever action rifle, if I was that way inclined.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
No I don't.

Neither do I use a double, because I have always used a bolt action rifle, so I use a bold rifle for all my hunting.

I would have no problems hunting any of the mentioned animals with a lever action rifle, if I was that way inclined.

If you were that way inclined would you use the same caiibre as the one mentioned in this post on DG?

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:
If you were that way inclined would you use the same caiibre as the one mentioned in this post on DG?

Now you went and dunit!!!!!I just knew someone would take the bait and run with it!

You have to enlighten me.

I am afraid I did not see any mention of the caliber.

Would you tell me what calibers are available in lever action rifles?

Just wouldn't use a lever action, don't own one and probably never will. Just my likes and dislikes no flame.

Saeed, I'm gonna whisper this, cause I don't want it to get out of hand, but if it was Garretts loads the caliber is....ah...ah...the

.45-70

Mad Dog

HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!

RAC, I'll bring the beer, you bring the popcorn. We'll set in the bleachers[and you thought the Olympics were over].

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!!




Mad Dog

bad vapodog, bad vapodog

Is it legal to have this much fun?

OK guys, we all owe a big appology to Carmello, he was right all along... the 45-70 IS a DG caliber.

Vapodog,
Shame on you!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Is it legal to have this much fun?

Depends on where you are at. It is good though!

Geez,
I don't see a CRF or a DOUBLE in any of the pictures. Guy must be real lucky....

Roger QSL

OK, all the BSn and fun aside, this gent just did with what everybody said, wouldn't/couldn't work. I've been following these threads since I first registered here[Carmellow not withstanding]. Forget legal, stunt, whatever ya want to call it, you don't HAVE to take a bolt action, $3000 rifle in whatever whizzbang caliber over there, to get it done. Everybody should cheer the man. He did it HIS way. Pompus asses, not withstanding, say what you want, it ain't the caliber, or the action, that gits it done it's the dude behind the gun.

Mad Dog

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog

OK, all the BSn and fun aside, this gent just did with what everybody said, wouldn't/couldn't work. I've been following these threads since I first registered here[Carmellow not withstanding]. Forget legal, stunt, whatever ya want to call it, you don't HAVE to take a bolt action, $3000 rifle in whatever whizzbang caliber over there, to get it done. Everybody should cheer the man. He did it HIS way. Pompus asses, not withstanding, say what you want, it ain't the caliber, or the action, that gits it done it's the dude behind the gun.

Well said, Mad Dog.

If someone can get something done with a 7x57 what I am skeptical of doing with something less than a .375 H&H, then I applaud them. It's the man behind the gun that ultimately matters, not the style of firearm or the caliber.

Namibiahunter

I am sure someone will chime in to correct me if I am wrong. John Pondoro Taylor was credited with around 1200-1500 elephant kills with a 7x57 using 175 and 195 grain bullets moving about 2300 fps, right. Why not some chap with 45-70 nuclear loads?
AB

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am sure someone will chime in to correct me if I am wrong. John Pondoro Taylor was credited with around 1200-1500 elephant kills with a 7x57 using 175 and 195 grain bullets moving about 2300 fps, right. Why not some chap with 45-70 nuclear loads?
AB

I thought that was WDM Bell.....aka Karamojo Bell.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am sure someone will chime in to correct me if I am wrong. John Pondoro Taylor was credited with around 1200-1500 elephant kills with a 7x57 using 175 and 195 grain bullets moving about 2300 fps, right. Why not some chap with 45-70 nuclear loads?
AB

That was Bell. He accounted for about 1011 elephant of which about 800 I believe were with a 7x57.

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am sure someone will chime in to correct me if I am wrong. John Pondoro Taylor was credited with around 1200-1500 elephant kills with a 7x57 using 175 and 195 grain bullets moving about 2300 fps, right. Why not some chap with 45-70 nuclear loads?
AB

That was Bell. He accounted for about 1011 elephant of which about 800 I believe were with a 7x57.

Yep, Bell was quite a guy. With all those elephant, makes you wonder when he found time to invent the telephone....

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am sure someone will chime in to correct me if I am wrong. John Pondoro Taylor was credited with around 1200-1500 elephant kills with a 7x57 using 175 and 195 grain bullets moving about 2300 fps, right. Why not some chap with 45-70 nuclear loads?
AB

That was Bell. He accounted for about 1011 elephant of which about 800 I believe were with a 7x57.

Yep, Bell was quite a guy. With all those elephant, makes you wonder when he found time to invent the telephone....

He didn't.

Bell who invented the telephone wasn't the same Bell who shot the elephants.

Back to the subject of this thread.

We have far too many people who believe "bigger is better".

And no matter how hard you try to prov to them that is not the case when it come to hunting, they keep their blinkers on

Saeed it is not only their feelings of bigger is better they also dislike the fact that an out of the box Marlin lever gun selling in the USA for around $450 can and does equally well on DG as the the double rifle they have penis envy over.

I think it was in African Hunter some time back someone shot bull buff broadside shot and it killed the bull and also a cow that was standing behind it with lever action, don't remember what caliber, think it was 47/70

There was. It was gun writer Brian Pearce. He used a Marlin leveraction .45-70, and 405 gr. Corbon penetrator loads.

Mad Dog

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


He didn't.

Bell who invented the telephone wasn't the same Bell who shot the elephants.

Back to the subject of this thread.

We have far too many people who believe "bigger is better".

And no matter how hard you try to prov to them that is not the case when it come to hunting, they keep their blinkers on

I'll be darned! I am gonna have to stop listening to Walter. I suppose he didn't start the Taco Bell either?

Yes, back to the topic at hand.

I don't think the reasons for all the scoffing are necessarily related to the cartridge-when it comes down to it, it's a 45 caliber round just like the 458, 450#2, 450 Dakota, and so on.

What gets folks stirred up is the hype associated with the rounds. The 45/70 is a fine caliber and modern loads have extended its utility. But the issue is, how far a reach have modern loads provided?

When you look at the Garrett site, you find a lot if information - everything EXCEPT velocity:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

You get bullet weight, energy numbers, even the Taylor TKO values. But no velocity.
As far as energy goes, the maxium listed for any 45/70 round is 3200 foot pounds -far under the 5000 pounds pegged for DG rifles in some countries.

With the energy values, bullet weights and calibers, I suppose it's possible to back into a velocity figure. My guess is that velocity on these rounds is peaking at around 1800 fps.

There have been more than a few discussions and more than ample evidence that a large caliber bullet needs to be pushing north of 2100 fps for optimal effect on dangerous game. Sure, rounds below those velocities can kill game, but they are not ideal for thick skinned dangerous game. Aside from the cost of a Safari, most people prefer to use a round that has more capacity to kill than it does to wound.

Here's a quote taken directly from the Garrett site:

quote:

Our 420-grainer is ideally suited for hunting all but the very heaviest game on the planet. It is MOA accurate, and will shoot lengthwise through the heaviest coastal grizzly at 200-yards. Our 540-grainer provides impact-effect against heavy game that simply is all out of proportion to its apparent ballistics. It will shoot lengthwise through bison and Cape buffalo, and is a super hammer for stopping determined grizzlies. It is the bluntest hard-cast bullet available for the caliber. It is also quite accurate, consistently providing 1.2 MOA.

This round may indeed be fine for a North American Grizzly, but I hardly think it is the best medicine for the thick skinned dangerous game.

We all know that a 45 caliber round can be pushed well above 2100 fps. The reason this is not done with the 45/70 is because lever guns like the Marlin cannot take the kind of chamber pressure required to reach those velocities. And it is those kind of velocities that are desirable for DG hunting.

Yes, a 45/70 can kill a cape buffalo. So can a spear. The rift is not so much a "bigger is better" deal, but is more about using the right tool for the right job.

Ah, Jim, I hate to rain on your parade, but when it says 1650 fps, or 1850 fps, next to the product description, isn't that velocity?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Mad Dog

How fast is the most modern compound bow pushing an arrow heavy enough to be legal for elephants? My guess would be well under 275FPS yet there have been many one shot kills with archery gear on all the DG species. Surely a 45-70 with a good bullet traveling at 1800 FPS can out penetrate an arrow at normal DG shooting ranges. Having the balls to do it is another matter which leads one to ponder "if you haven't the balls for it go shoot some bushbucks"

1650, 1850, either way it is short what is required for reliable pentration on elephants, and then, if the bullets are cast, bullet integrity is questionable.

I have experimented with 45/70 level loads in Africa out of my 458wm at the request of a 45/70 fan. The loads were 540gr bullets of varoius hardness shot at 1500fps, the velocity specified by the bullet supplier. I used a an elephant I had killed the afternoon prior as the test medium. The vaunted penetration with hard cast bullets just wasn't there. Further, the harder bullets fragmented while the softer ones deformed too much. Some have blamed the bullet formulas. I used bullets cast and provided by a 45/70 and cast bullet aficianado, maybe his formula might be less than perfect.

My take is that I do not think it is a good choice for cape buffalo, especially given so many more suitable rounds, but I think it will do the job adequately.

One thing was clear though and that was that none of those bullets at that velocity were elephant medicine by any stretch of the imagination.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion


When you look at the Garrett site, you find a lot if information - everything EXCEPT velocity:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

You get bullet weight, energy numbers, even the Taylor TKO values. But no velocity.
As far as energy goes, the maxium listed for any 45/70 round is 3200 foot pounds -far under the 5000 pounds pegged for DG rifles in some countries.

With the energy values, bullet weights and calibers, I suppose it's possible to back into a velocity figure. My guess is that velocity on these rounds is peaking at around 1800 fps.

To calculate muzzle velocity, the formula is:
velocity = the square root of (muzzle energy x 450240 divided by bullet weight)
thus
the velocity of the Garrett 45-70 +P Hammerhead 420-grain super hard cast gas checked is:

(3200 x 450240) divided by 420 = the square root of 3430400 = 1852 ft lbs

Namibiahunter

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
Ah, Jim, I hate to rain on your parade, but when it says 1650 fps, or 1850 fps, next to the product description, isn't that velocity?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Mad Dog

MD

Not raining on my parade. I just flat out missed the velocity numbers they posted.

Be that as it may, it does not change my prior post.

Namibiahunter - thanks for the formula!

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
OK, all the BSn and fun aside, this gent just did with what everybody said, wouldn't/couldn't work. I've been following these threads since I first registered here[Carmellow not withstanding]. Forget legal, stunt, whatever ya want to call it, you don't HAVE to take a bolt action, $3000 rifle in whatever whizzbang caliber over there, to get it done. Everybody should cheer the man. He did it HIS way. Pompus asses, not withstanding, say what you want, it ain't the caliber, or the action, that gits it done it's the dude behind the gun.

Mad Dog

The bold words say volumes!