FB,
Good points.

BTW, this brings up the point that a DGR ought to have a little slop in the chamber, and everywhere, for functional reliability. Too close tolerances can lead to combat problems.

I did not say that the firing pin fall could move the shoulder relative to the rest of the case, just move the whole case and jam that minimal sloping shoulder into the neck portion of the chamber. Then with pressures just under 60,000 psi when all is perfect, it would be asking for extraction problems, etc. As for the throat of the chamber, I have no ideas what the 411 Hawk is like there.

Definitely not a DGR cartridge, since basic function requires a benchrest chamber and precision, fussy reloading.

Dagga

I have long thought the belted cases such as 458 Winchester or Lott could be said to have the fault of fussy headpacing as well . You are dependent on the thickness of the belt , probably less than that of the Hawk's shoulder , for proper headspacing ........

Well said Fred.

Fred,

There are many knowledgeable people on this forum and I was wondering if you might share your credentials. Like...

How many Widlcats have you designed?

How long have you been teaching the Wildcat Design Course?

Thanks...

Elk Man: I've checked with a friend who also shoots a 411 Hawk with cast bullets. He like 270 grain bullets at 1950 fps and thinks the presure is around 30-35,000. His load uses 36.5 grains of powder. A nice low pressure load with no headspace problems! He has shot hundreds of these through his gun.

After building the .411 Hawk I haven't had near the desire to shoot my 35 Whelen Wildcat (similar to a brown Whelen). When I did shoot it, I had a blast and found it easy to load for.

The .411 Hawk has been an exciting wlidcat to build and shoot. It is very similar to the 400 Whelen, which Colonel Whelen stated "Properly loaded, however, this cartridge is a very excellent killer for heavy game, at medium and long ranges up to about 400 yards" (John Kronfeld, .400 Brown Whelen).

I know, I have one.

This in no way is meant to impugn Fred's character but when I see a velocity claim for a round I automaticaly deduct a significant percentage. This is proabably more to do with my caution as a reloader and my innate pessimism than anything else.

Thus if I bought a 411Hawk I would expect it to acheive 2,250fps, would be pleased to get 2,300fps and pleasantly surprised to get 2,350fps.

Also if the reccomended redline for 9.3x62 is 50kpsi why is it thought safe to exceed that by 10kpsi in the 411 Hawk?

sdgunslinger,
The H&H belt has a 90 degree "shoulder angle" per side. That is an abrupt and prompt stop of 0.010" thickness on each side/circumferentially. Compare this to the 17 degree 15 minute 0.012" sharp and pointy wedge that is the "stop" for the 411 Hawk. There is just no comparison.

Dagga

Reguardless of your opinion of the Hawk , pick up a belted case , take a look and tell me there is room for alot of "slop" in that portion of the chamber that determines headspace . I can also envision grit or some foreign matter that might stick in the "headspace" portion of the chamber interfereing with a cartridge going all the way home . In fact , I believe on the gunsmithing board there is a thread about a new Remington in a belted caliber with a small burr in that area of the chamber that prevented proper chambering of factory loads .......

sdgunslinger

A little experiment you might like to try.

Cut up some coke tin for shims, they will be about .005".

Now stick one between the bolt face and case head and close the bolt, force it if necessary. Then add another shim and force the bolt close again.

Now the try the same with a belted case and you will find when the belt has fully engaged the bolt hand will feel like you have hit a wall.

Mike

Mike , no doubt your experiment would work . It also makes my point that a decently cut belted chamber will not handle a great deal of dirt . And just because you can force the rimless case into the chamber with the camming power of the bolt does not mean the case wouldn't headspace well enough to ensure good ignition . The notion that our sporting rifles can have the chambers cut to handle a great deal of foriegn matter is bullshit , IF you want to use the cases more than once .

As I'm sure you know , you want a chamber with slop that will handle severe conditions, get an old Mauser or .303 SMLE . But they were not worried about saving the cases .

I suspect that something like the .404 Jeffry would be the most reliable large sporting round under dirty conditions .

I'm sure that Rigby, Holland and Holland, Kreighoff and others build slop into their double rifle chambers, NOT. Those are finely crafted, precise firearms that have served in Africa very well. You don't need a sloppy gun for it to be dependable.

Yukon Jack, actually the British gunmakers have been famous for sloppy chambers. When you drop a cartridge in the mud, pick it up and jam it in the chamber, you want the gun to work. And the british guns of old do.

500,
My bad. I have to admit to handling very few of the London rifles. The H&Hs and Rigbys I've handled seemed very precise, I guess that was my assumption anyway. I did not get the opportunity to fire any of them. Maybe there was mist in my eye because I knew I had to let go.

Yukon,

The fit of the action, wood to metal fit, etc, is usually quite good on those guns, but they have tolerances where they need tolerances.

FB,
You just get more wisdom every day, I'm proud of you, nice post...

sdgunslinger,

I don't think in most cases that will be right about dirt and the belt, assuming of course the belted case has plenty of clearance at the shoulder.

The very small area of the belt would mean the dirt was just pushed aside and/or crushed. I am referring here to being able to close the bolt with reasonable ease. The rimless case is always going to require a close fit at the much larger shoulder area.

What does all this mean? It means you need to replace your 35 Whelen with the 375 H&H

Mike

sdgunslinger,
Ditto Mike375. A burr in any chamber is bad. If the rimless will close on the burr then it might cause extraction problems after firing. Anyway you cut it, the H&H belt is proven functional with minimal fuss. No fussy reloading techniques.

Yes, the 404 Jeffery is a great cartridge, with a tiny shoulder angle and enough shoulder width to make up for it.

A 9.3X62 Mauser and a 404 Jeffery make a great pair.

So does a 9.3X62 Mauser and a 416 Rigby.

So does a 375 H&H and a 416 Remington.

So does a 338 WinMag and a 416 Taylor.

So does a 300 WinMag and a 458 Lott ...

I could go on and on and never mention a CENSORED.

RAB,

Personaly, I regard all these things like 411 Hawk, 45/70s with special bullets etc. and etc in the same area as busting roos and pigs with big Wbys and 375s etc.

The only difference being that those who use big bangers on roos, dragon flys etc. do not advocate them for such use, except under the heading of what you are shooting is not particularly important, there are heaps of them so efficiency can be replaced by the fun factor.

I also think that some of the 411 Hawk and 45/70 stuff is driven by a lower dollar number.

Mike

Mike,
Yep, and those that bust roos with 416 Weatherby do it with a big grin and not caring that others take them seriously or consider it some kind of "HOLY GRAIL."

And the dollar point is moot when one can pick up a CZ 550 Medium FS in 9.3X62 Mauser with a gorgeous brindle coated walnut stock for $495 USD like I just did.

I dunno boys . You are dependent on .01 inch or so on each side for proper headpacing with loads like the heavily tapered H&H rounds . If you have a belted cartridge with lots of shoulder any savvy reloader is headpacing his loads with the shoulder .

I submit most of those chambers don't really have a whole lot of "slop" to them and if you had one that was really sloppy you wouldn't be happy with it .........

Trade the Whelen for a .375 ? Nope. I've decided if I aquire something bigger it will be one with some real stomping power , with at least a .416 bore .

My guns have certainly been subjected to a lot of dirt, mud, dust, and whatever in the action and chamber and Lord knows what or where else..It happens to folks that hunt...Dirt, grit snow, ice, saddle scabbards, pickups create grit and dirt and what all..This has never been a major problem in my lifetime, just a very minor agrivation...I think this is mostly theory...unless taken to the very extreme...

sdgunslinger,
That 0.010" drop off from belt to head radius (0.020" diameter differential) is at the steepest possible 90 degree angle. This creates a WALL. You can force a 411 Hawk into the throat, but you will never get the H&H or Weatherby belt past the stop. Positive.

I am not making a big deal about grit and grime. The Mauser action (or AK-47, or Lee Enfield) are inherently sloppy enough to laugh off most conceivable abuse in peace and war, as long as they are not badly corroded in the chamber or other critical surfaces.

I just got my copy of Dr. Ken Howell's book on cartridge designing, today. I will have to see what he has to say on shoulders.

I could live with the .450 Howell. Great design.

RAB: Maybe I could save you some time.

Back on 9/10/02 Ken Howell posted the following comment on SHOOTERS.com regarding the .400 Whelen (close twin to the .411 Hawk, w/longer neck)

"I wasn't commenting on the .400 Whelen in any respect except the stupid allegation that its shoulder is indaequate for reliable headspacing."

Hope this helps!

Hey,
The 400 Whelen has a 0.012" shoulder-neck radius difference just like the 411 Hawk. The 400 Whelen shoulder angle is 17.2 degrees, comparable to the 17.25 degree angle of the 411 Hawk.

They are both based on the 30-06 case. The 411 Hawk has a shorter neck as the primary difference. So what is so great and new about the 411 Hawk. The 400 Whelen has been around for ages and never caught on.

Dr. Howell's statements should be read in context. He is a gifted man but I think more of a technician than a DGR practitioner. The fussy handloader can make the 411 Hawk work well on paper targets with great care. No one with deep pockets and/or common sense would ever mass produce this cartridge as a "factory load."

BTW, the 500 A-Square has a diminutive shoulder that is better than the 411 Hawk's, but it relies on the belted case, since it is a real DGR cartridge.

411 Hawk: 0.012" and 17.25 degrees: Tiny!
500 A-2: 0.016" and 35 degrees. Less tiny!

Why didn't they just use the 416 Rigby case instead of the 460 Weatherby case for the 500 A-2?

All I can say about the 450 Howell is that its shoulder is better than the 411 Hawk's.

450 Howell shoulder: 0.0175" and 25 degrees.

I like the 416 Howell much better: 0.0355" and 25 degrees. Now that is a good shoulder.

Maybe Dr. Howell has a vested interest in sticking up for the minimalist shoulder of the 400 Whelen, since he put an only slightly less minimalist shoulder on the 450 Howell? Maybe it was done as an experiment in minimalist shoulders?

Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

Kids, don't try this at home!

I dont know about all the british makers and sloppy chambers, but.. My little rigby .275 wont take Hansen ammo. I also know westley richards's early .458's wouldnt chamber all WW factory ammo. It seems WR chambered to win's cartridge specs, but win didnt hold tolerance with their ammo. The Win were sloppy enough to take it, the W.R.'s were not. I'll have to get into a friends collection and check this sloppy chamber theory, I'll be surprised if they are.

Hey, What does Kens book have to say about shoulders? You left us hanging .

Where did fussy handloading come into play? Please site the source, because I have not found this caliber to be any more fussy than my 30-06.

Out of Context? I do not believe I took his statement out of context. If anything, I left of more statements to back up the fact that this caliber has enough shoulder to headspace on.

Here is another Ken Howell statement regarding the shoulder on the .400 Whelen, "I said ne'er a mumblin word about anything other than the erroneous allegation of an inadequate shoulder on the .400 Whelen.

On 06/07/00 Ken wrote "my friend and neighbor Elmer Keith was undoubtedly the most famous fan of the .400 Whelen during its heyday and the period of its condemnation by the "X-spurts" in the gun press who wrote so much about it without any experience with it." Wow, that hits close to home.

Ken went on to say "Elmer held the cartridge in high regard - based on his experience with it."

The original post asked for anyone with EXPERIENCE with the .411 Hawk. I have not read where anyone asked about or wanted to mass produce the .411 Hawk. Anyone with common sense would not have taken the original post out of context like that.

The shoulders on a 500 A-Square was never questioned either. You can keep yours, but I would not build one.

Maybe you should check with Ray Atkinson about how adequate the shoulders on a .411 Hawk/Whelen are. Wait, I remember a post on the Big Bore forum where he stated "It doesn't take much of a shoulder to headspace on and I suspect the Improved version will do just fine." I believe he was refering to the .411 Hawk.

Shoot something different!

I have not found any statements by Ken Howell about what constitutes a good shoulder. This appears to be an issue that is seldom dealt with in any authoritative way. I'm still looking. If anyone else can site something from his book, help me out please. The rest of this hearsay is secondhand internet banter.

The 500 A-Square is a belted case that does not rely upon its slightly bigger and more obtuse angled (by more than two fold the angle) shoulder. It is often dismissed as barely existant but it is a more positive stop than the 411 Hawk shoulder.

I have no experience with the 411 Hawk, and I don't want any. Those who want to get on with their fussy handloading of this oddball cartridge, get on with it! And if only those with experience with this cartridge need apply here, WELL EXCUSE ME!

Simular, and older then the 411 Hawk, is the 400 Brown-Whelen. In an artical in the Wildcat book (Wolfe Publishing), the author proved the small shoulder is more then enough, by popping 100 primers (no bullets/powder), with the Mauser extractor removed in his rifle. All were chambered "push-feed" and the shoulder did indeed stop where it's supposed to, and all primers were shot, with no problems at all.
One thing that may not be taken into consideration here is the the 411 Hawk's shoulder area. Its not just the measurement on either side, but it's the total area that amounts to head space. The 411 has shown to be enough. Don't lose sleep over it. ~~~Suluuq

Suluuq,

I have the ideal solution

A big Weatherby with of course some stock inlays.

Firstly, it breaks the tradition barrier far better than any old 45/70 or 411 Hawk.

Heaps of power. Flat trajectory for plains game. No headspace issues. Vertical stack feed reliability. In fact it would not be that hard to get the magazine box extended down so they hold a box of ammo.

You could easily do a switch barrel in both 416 Wby and 416 Rigby. a Wby with inlays with the 416 Rigby barrel on board would really confuse everyone, a real case of

Mike

[ 09-30-2002, 09:20: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

If the 411 Hawk, will toss a .411 bullet at 2100 FPS then it is a dangerous game bullet par excellence...If it will shoot a 350 at 2300 then I don't see why it would have any trouble with a 400 getting 2100...It has a heck of a lot of SD..and duplicates the 450-400's....

Now if Hawk would wake up and solder their jackets to the core and get off the false claims that it destroys accuracy and all the other hype..Trust me I have used them extensively and they fail all the time...they need a little help and then they would be perfect..I know, Zeglin, you don't agree, but I have shot more stuff with them than you have! but I also realize that you sold that part of the operation to some guys in NY...

Groan! Resurrecting the dead ?

Who cares about this pipsqueak now that there is the 400 H&H?