The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting .411 Hawk for DG?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| .411 Hawk for DG? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Any of you Safari Aficionados have experience with the .411 Hawk? Found a web site that claims "This is the most efficient dangerous game cartridge on the market. The 411 Hawk will deliver over 4000 foot pounds of energy. The magic number, in many expert hunters eyes, for dangerous game. Compare to a 404 Jeffery." Seems like a pretty lofty claim from a necked up .30-06. http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm Thanks Elk_Man | ||
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| One of Us |
Yeah, it's a stretch and at the low end of the spectrum, but so is the 9.3 x 62 to be honest about it. | |||
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| one of us |
Ridiculously inadequate shoulder and the 300 grain .411 bullet is too light for DG. The 9.3X62 is definitely a better DG round than this monstrosity. .411 Hawk: Hype and BS, just begging for trouble. Just my 2 cents worth for free. | |||
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| One of Us |
Dagga, I asked the creator of the 411 Hawk about the shoulder and he told me the following. The 411 is basically a straight walled case with an ackley improved shoulder. It does not suffer headspace problems associated with the 400 Brown whelen due to the above features. I asked if the 411 could be made in .416 instead, and he said that there would not be enough shoulder left for headspacing. I agree that the 9.3 x 62 is a safer bet. But a bit light, although I will let my wife use one. A better idea than a 411 Hawk, and cheaper, is a win m70 in 416 rem mag. | |||
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| one of us |
500grains, So the cartridge with the .416" bullet is a no-no but with .411" it is fine and dandy? That is only 0.0025" difference per side at the shoulder. That is not too reassuring to me. I am sure it could be pulled off, obviously it has, but it requires too much fussiness and precision for a DG cartridge, and no commercial ammo loader with any sense of liability law suits would consider loading that cartridge. Just 2 cents donation to the cash register by me. | |||
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| one of us |
.411 caliber 350 grain bullet sectional density = 0.296. I would like to know the shoulder angle in degrees per side and the difference between neck and shoulder diameters. Sumbuddy who know? Also, what are the pressures like for the red-in-the-face loads with 350 grain bullets for the 411 Hawk? Sumbuddy who know? The best that it can offer is still way below what a 416 Taylor can do in the same size action. The only real advantage I see is increasing the magazine capacity for the beltless '06 based cartridge, but less whomp per shot than with the belted short magnum, of which the 416 Taylor is king. Maybe we should just turn the belts off the 416 Taylor? It would have a far better shoulder than the 411 Hawk for headspacing on, and a lot more whomp. Then we would have to turn the rim of the 416 Taylor down by .010" radius. Then we would have to open up the standard '06 boltface that much less to accommodate the new round. Sounds like a winner to me. The "416 Taylor Beltless." The 416 TB. Pure consumption for big came. Cough cough. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} That would be sweet. A lot better bullet availability than the .411. And Mike375 could provide varmint bullets for it. | |||
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| One of Us |
RAB, The 411 Hawk compares to the 416 Remington about the way a 9.3 X 62 compares to the 375 H&H. I am guessing its plus is for making up a trimmer rifle and a rifle that would match in all ways a companion 30/06 or 338/06. Mike | |||
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| <Mike Dettorre> |
Dagga, If you look at the link most of your ?s will be answered. Pressures are in 57-58 range...case is a near straight wall so that's what .473 on an 06 neck you could estimate. Fred's preffered shoulde rangle is 20 deg as I recall. Why don't you call him. Fred Zeglin Casper Wyoming. | ||
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| one of us |
The real reason I asked about the .411 Hawk was I was considering getting a Baikal Double in .30-06 and having it rebored to .375 Hawk or .411 Hawk. Still waiting for Fred Zeglin to tell me if the barrels on the Baikal are big enough (top barrel 12.028...12.039 mm and bottom barrel l3.957 ...14.000 mm according to the manufacturer). I am sure all the double gun snobs will be abhorred by this transgression but hey, it's MY gun! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
MD, The shoulder seems to be 17 degrees and 15 minutes per side, and amounts to a "few thousandths" per side? It is such a closely guarded secret that I can't find it. The pressures for barely mentionable ballistics are just under 60,000 psi. Not a DG round. I find this round so boring that I see why they call it Z-Hat. Like cutting Z's ... ZZZ ... gets me to snoring. | |||
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| <Mike Dettorre> |
Dagga, and why is it not a DG round.. | ||
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| one of us |
ZZZ ... ZZZ ... ZZZ ... | |||
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| One of Us |
RAB, I reckon going to Africa after buffalo and lion with a 411 Hawk would be like to going to a high class restaurant and taking your own prawns in a brown paper bag. The nutritional value would definitely be OK Mike [ 09-16-2002, 06:10: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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| one of us |
The 411 Hawk has already been used on DG (Brown Bear), and from a levergun! Phil Shomaker wrote of his friend, anothoer Alaskan guide, using this cartridge in a M95 Winchester levergun, I believe made by Z-Hat, with excellent results. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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| <Cobalt> |
Instead of turning off the belts on the Taylor, could we use a .375UM case trimmed to 2.6in and necked to .416? No belt and a little more case capacity. Just a thought. Cobalt | ||
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| One of Us |
Cobalt, There is a 416 Howell which is based on the shortened and blown out 404 case. Also, 375 Dakotas could be necked up. However if these were tight chambers they would probably not take reformed RUM cases as they are a few thou bigger than the 404 cases so expensive brass would be required. Mike | |||
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| <Mike Dettorre> |
Dagga, Thanks for your clear and insightful response and sharing your vast experience | ||
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| one of us |
DaggaRon, I am intrigued by the idea of turning off the belt, and then turning down the rim to match the new base diameter. This would more or less give you a 9.3x64 case. I have often wondered why nobody has ever used this as the basis for a wildcat, or a whole family of them -- same case capacity, better feeding and maybe even one more in the mag (my Taylor is oh-so-close to getting four down, I think losing the belt might push it over - perhaps I will experiment with some old brass), plenty of shoulder to headspace on, and plentiful brass. Todd | |||
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| one of us |
I have found the 9.3x62 to be perfectly adaquate on DG if the bullet placement is correct and a proper bullet is used and that it is the full equal of the 375 H&H and that is not slight praise....I have also found this true of the 577 N.E. It takes precious little shoulder to headspace a cartridge.... | |||
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| one of us |
I have a good friend of mine here in Alaska that has a 411 on the way. It's in Winchester's 1895 and Z-Hat is doing the conversion. Quarter rib rear sight with two folding leaf sights, one cut for the 350 grain Swift A Frame and the other for the 400 grain Barnes. Maximum PBR if I'm not mistaken. The rifle will have a barrel band sling swivel and banded front sight. While it may offend the African afficiando's on this board, the rifle should suited perfectly for his intended purpose of a medium (200 yard)range brown bear/moose rifle. Would it work on African DG? Probably, we all know for a fact that lesser calibers do on a consistent basis. I don't know if he plans on taking it to Africa, but I don't see why he wouldn't. | |||
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| <rossi> |
I'm not real sure why the Win 1895M would be a very good platform for the wildcatted 411 Hawk. I'm certainly no expert, but if I wanted a heavy duty lever gun spitting out big spitzers, I would go Browning BLR, hands down. I could easily wildcat a 375-338 Win or 416 Taylor by rebarreling and lightly modifying a BLR in 300 Win or 7MM Rem Mag. I'd have a much better bolt lockup system, I think 7 or 8 lugs on the Browning rotary bolt, and it would handle those belted mangums all day without breaking a sweat. Even the 411 Hawk would be better served on 30-06 BLR action. rossi | ||
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| one of us |
quote:Rossi... the M95 win can handle over 50,000 chamber pressure just fine, after all, it's available in both the 270 and 30-06 rounds. Its a strong action, most suitable for the 411 round. I do understand the idea of using a fatter case, ie belted/404 cases, and I'm sure they make for fine rounds in their own right. The 411/416 that intrigues me most is the 416 based on the 376 Steyr case, but it didn't live up to Steyr's hopes of equaling the 416 magnums, so it's bound to wildcat status for the duration of it's meager life. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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| one of us |
Besides, the BLR is just plain ugly. Just kidding, to each his own. I like the looks and feel of the 95 much better than any other lever, maybe because it's different. But the BLR is just ugly. | |||
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| <rossi> |
Rusty, After handling a new Miorka made 95, I just find them not very balanced and the ergos not very pleasing. Now, add more recoil and I know I'm not going to be particularly fond of it. That buttstock, whew how unappealing that feels. Nothing wrong with the platform though. YJ, as you have pointed out beauty must be in the eye of the beholder. I use to like the looks of the Win 1895, but by todays standards it seems less attractive (bulk and such)than it once did to me. The BLR is just plain modern technology, not necessarily appealing to my eye either, but a better platform than the 95 non-the-less. I'd rather have the older straight stocked Model 81 than the newer buckhorn stocked Lightning BLR. The Lightning is mighty unappealing in looks, but the ergos are much better than a 1895. Nothing gospel here, just the way I see it. Take Care, rossi | ||
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| <allen day> |
Sounds like another brainfart cartridge to me, but then my opinions don't tend to be very popular on a lot of subjects like this one........ Bottom line: I thinks someone's trying to force too much performance out of too small a case, especially for use in Africa, and especially with the rifles I've seen discussed in this thread. AD | ||
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| one of us |
rossi, Yes, indeed, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Wouldn't it be a bore if we all wanted and liked the same thing. Hope I didn't offend you, it was merely a light "ribbing". I personally think the old Farquharson single shots are some of the most appealing rifles ever made, but have some friends who think they are really ugly. Again, no offense intended, just lightening the mood a little. I don't know why so many of these threads get folks so wound up. Better Days | |||
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| one of us |
The 411 Hawk tosses a 350 grainer at 2366 FPS. SD is .296, just shy of the beloved .300. Speed is also shy of 2,400 some feel is a magic number. Will this actually make a practical difference in the real world? Will it come up short? will it fail? I serously doubt any animal on earth (that includes what ever DG on your list) will ever know the diference, nor will the shooter. It only makes a difference in some folks minds, unfortunately. ~~~Suluuq ~~~Suluuq | |||
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one of us |
The 411 Hawk is the beloved African 9.3x62 cartridge necked up to .411 with no other changes. I think the 300 grain bullet moving at 2500 fps is several hundred fps faster than the 405 Win that Teddy took too Africa and downed many animals with glowing comments and very similar to the 375 H&H. My copy of Hodgdon #26 shows a max load of H4198 w/300 grain bullet at 2410 fps for the 458 Win. I feel level of power would get the job done. The 411 Hawk is not a Taylor and was not meant to be. It is the most you can get out of a 30-06 case with 60 grains of powder. Cases are fun to make, easy to headspace and fun to shoot with plenty of power. Make your own trail. | |||
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One of Us |
Well, well, well... I occasionally read these forums but seldom chime in, since participants often see it as a commercial. I noted that only a very few of the posts here were from folks with experience with any of the Hawk line of cartridges, let alone the 411 Hawk. The 411 has seen substantial testing both in the field and on the range. It is a proven commodity commercially, mechanically, and ballistically. We have tested the 411 using the Oehler Model 43, pressures are held to the same level as factory 30-06. Often the question of why use the 411 in stead of the 416 comes up. It's straight forward, we were building the cartridge to be the most you could put on the 30-06 case, and still have reliability. The 416 would be much more difficult to form. Think about it the brass has to bend twice in a very short area, the thickness of the brass and it's spring back make this a problem. Some of the other wildcat ideas mentioned here are interesting. Most of them have been done already. The 416 BGA (Big Game Adventures) is the proprietary cartridge of the magazine by that name. We did the cartridge development and design for them. The 416 BGA is the equivelant to the 416 Taylor without the belt. The 416/375 Steyr is a cartridge variation of one I am building now for a client. He was a friend of Finn Aagaard and chose to name the cartridge for his buddy, "416 Aagaard". BTW... The 411 Hawk was just written up again, this time in "Deer & Big Game Rifles" published by Harris. It is on the stands now if you want some comments on the 411 that come from field tests and not from me. Finnally I wanted to address the headspace myth. In the Feb. 2001 issue of Precision Shooting, Michael Petrov wrote an article titled, "The 400 Whelen." In it he explains that thru years of investigation and collecting of original specimans he was able to prove that the mythical headspace problem in the 400 Whelen was a result of a bad set of dies that over sized the cases and in effect caused headspace. No one caught the problem, and the myth was born. Check it out for yourselves in the article if your care to look it up. Good shooting to all! ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} [ 09-19-2002, 09:10: Message edited by: Zeglin ] | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Zeglin... Welcome aboard (concerning your first post), although you've been here before. I've been reading of your cartidges for some time, and visit your web page on occasion. These cartridges are more then adequate to produce successful results. Although not a Hawk, mine is a 375 Whelen AI, of which I think is perfect for Alaskan game. As to the 416 based on the Steyr case... it came to my attention some months back. Apparently Steyr tried the idea and didn't like the speeds it offered, so they decided not to make it ligit. Its good to know it will be made available, especially that its named after a fine gun writer, Finn AAgaard, as the 416 Aagaard. Just curious... is this one an improved case, or the Steyr as-is? ~~~Suluuq [ 09-19-2002, 11:35: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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| one of us |
Bullet Selection for the .411 Hawk. Hawk, Barnes, Woodleigh and Northfork to name a few. Each company offers several weights. I've shot cloverleafs with the 325 grain Northfork at 100 yds. Built it, shot it, love it! | |||
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| One of Us |
quote:It's an improved case, shoulder is .495 with about a caliber length neck. Will be testing the first chambering this next week. I will try to find time to post some results. | |||
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one of us |
quote:Who made this wildcat? What was its performance? | |||
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| one of us |
0.454" = shoulder diameter of .411 Hawk Guesstimating: Neck diameter of .411 Hawk cartridge = 0.430" (as for the .411 JDJ) Shoulder angle per side = 17 degrees 15 minutes Shoulder to neck radius difference: (0.454" - 0.430")/2 = 0.012" A shoulder of only 12/1000" per side, with minimum case taper and a shoulder angle of only 17 degrees 15 minutes? When forming the brass from cylindrical '06 basic brass, one has to neck the brass up bigger than the base of the case and then neck it down and size it. Then one must use a controlled feed action to fire form, as a pushfeed may drive the case incrementally forward past the headspace datum line, and the firing pin strike may do so too? Minimum taper and minimum or worse shoulder and hot pressures, for marginal ballistics. That .416 BGA sounds like a good wildcat/proprietary round to rebarrel an '06 to. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Some months back, we were talking about this, and Jim Dodd (Hunter Jim) mentioned he had info striaght from Steyr on a "416 Steyr". Apparently, Steyr didn't like the speeds it offered, so decided not to produce this cartridge. Jim was kind enough to send the info to me on this "wildcat" of Steyr's, because I had some interest in it back then. My comments that it will live via a wildcat, was made unknowning of Z-Hat's (see Zeglin's comments above) version. I had only assummed if I was intrigued by this one (because Steyr didn't want it), then someone else will too. And now Z-Hat has it, the 416 Aargaard. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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| one of us |
Dagga Ron, Fred built a rear locking, push feed 1895 Winchester 411 Hawk for Master Guide Ed Stevenson up here in Alaska. Mr. Stevenson uses this rifle as his "stopper" for his bear hunts. Since there is no commercial factory cartridges at this time, Mr. Stevenson surely forms his own cases in the 1895 Winchester. Obviously there doesn't seem to be an issue. Don't make this more than it is, it works. It has been proven in the factory and the field. | |||
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| one of us |
FYI, Cylinder brass can be run through the dies in one pass to neck down the brass to form the .454 shoulder. I've used a .430 expander ball to expand Whelen brass up to .460 then back down to get the correct shoulder of .454. The case uses the Ackley taper of .0075 oer inch. Until the dies is positioned exactly in the press for a crush you cannot cram the cases into the chamber and move the shoulder. As for the firing pin moving the shoulder, thanks, I needed a laugh. It takes considerable force on my part to move the shoulder with my 1 TON RCBS press. I do agree that a case with the shoulder set improperly far back by improperly made dies can be slid forward by the impact of the firing pin in the chamber. A recent gun writer (Deer and Big Game Rifles)using a 6mm06 had headspace problems until the die was set to corectly crush fit the case to the chamber. I know your thinking a 6mm06 has a lot of shoulder and can't have headspace problems, but it did. The .411 Hawk is the Holy Grail of the 06 offspring. I know, I have one. Keep shooting! | |||
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| one of us |
Would some happy owner of a .411 Hawk measure the neck of the loaded brass with bullet in place? I have enough fussing going on with my 35 Brown Whelen and don't want anymore. Guess I am of a different religion if the .411 Hawk is "THE HOLY GRAIL." | |||
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| <Fat Bastard> |
quote:"Efficient"? Okay, I'm no expert, but in my book, "efficient" is way down on the list of qualities desirable in a dangerous game cartridge. I'd rather hear about "powerful", "low pressure", "easy feeding & extraction", "readily available", etc. Leave "efficient" to the benchresters. | ||
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