Hi there,

I'm going to be in the East Cape sometime in the not-to-distant future. What game animals are must haves and what should I avoid taking?

This will be my first trip to Africa, so please assume that I don't know much.

I hunted with Dion Van Niekirk on Blaaukrantz.

Must haves:

Cape Bushbuck
Cape Kudu
Cape Grysbok

and a Vaal Rhebok of course.

You will love it down there.

Have a great hunt.

Wildebeest Black.

Good Hunting

If they are available Nyala without exception...
Triple trophy kudu, bushbuck, and nyala....Everytime you walk into your trophy room you will smile...

Mike

Cape Kudu, Cape Bushbuck, Vaal Rhebok, Black Wildebeest, all 3 Springbok color phases, Mountain Reedbuck, and maybe a Bontebok.

Actually there are very few "indigenous" species in that area. That means most of the species you will be offered (eg Nyala, BWB..) are trucked in and released, or were bred from animals that were transplanted from their natural ranges.

If you want to research this, get a copy of a good reference book that has maps showing distribution of various species. "Mammals of Africa" is one, and "Hunting Africa" is another. (We have the latter in stock, and it's a must-read for a first timer).

However, if it makes you feel any better, your buddies won't know this when you show them your trophies and the E Cape hunts are very inexpensive. It's not real Africa though, not the flora nor the fauna. Sorry....

What is "real" Africa Russ?

What store do you represent?

Dear Russ,

You are so very wrong! I don't know where you got your info, but Bushbuck, Mt Reed Buck, Vaal Rehbok, and Grey Duiker are INDIGENOUS to the Cape. Kudu require an incredible fence to keep them in. They pretty much go where they want to go. Blesbok and Bontebok are both native and "rehabilitated", ie, reintroduced species; however, once introduced, they are natural. The springboks are a different case. The black and white are almost high bred subspecies, but the common is similar to the blesbok.

Are there farms where all of these species are put and take? Yes. However, there are plenty of venues in the Cape where this is not the case. The Cape Kudu, Vaal Rehbok, Mt Reedbok, Bushbuck, and Grysbok that I took are among my most prized trophies, taken in some of the most beautiful country and under some of the most demanding conditions of any hunt I've made in Africa.

To give the impression that hunting in the Cape is not a legitimate African experience is similar to suggesting that hunting elk or sheep in the American Rockies isn't a legit hunting experience.

Shame on you. Kudude

Analog,

You probably have, but if not, meet with your taxidermist and discuss mounts; i.e. pedestal mounts, where they will be displayed, etc.

This will important information for the skinners when caping trophy.

What species to hunt in the “Anywhere area�

Very easy answer: Firstly choose those that are naturally endemic to the “Anywhere areaâ€. If you want more species choose those that are natural fauna [have always occurred there] in the “Anywhere areaâ€! If you still want more species, go hunt in the “Elsewhere areaâ€, where those are natural fauna!

analog_peninsula asked about the Eastern Cape, so if he applies my general advice to this province:

First sub question: Are there any species which are endemic to the Eastern Cape? I don’t think so. Species like bontebok, Cape grysbok are also natural inhabitants in the Western Cape. If someone can correct me, please do so, but I really don’t think there are any species endemic to the Eastern Cape.

Second sub question: Which are natural fauna in the Eastern Cape? Kudude gave you some suggestions. You can add quite a number to his list, steinbuck, warthog and bushpig come to mind as some others which are natural inhabitants or indigenous if you like in the Eastern Cape. Springbok is another. I do not intend listing all these here, it will just complicate the arguments.

To just briefly address some other issues raised: One may ask if a certain species has since very long ago, say the year 0, been present on “Anywhere area†? If you ask this question about a very specific small area, like the game farm Vaalkop [or Blaaukrantz, or wherever you intend to hunt] I can say with some confidence that duiker, steenbok and a few others have probably been there for a long time. This means that during the past 300 odd years they have maintained a presence despite the pressure by sheep, goat cattle and other farming practices. On many farms the bigger, and easier to hunt, species have been totally eradicated by hunters and farming practices. With the rise in prices for game animals, and labor costs and many other factors, it became profitable for the farm owners to re-introduce these species. These re-introduced animals may be [I’ll explain later why the ‘may be’] in their natural habitat and do very well and breed successfully. Usually a re-introduced nucleus herd grows in numbers to a point where culling has to be used to keep things in check. To take a trophy from such a herd, even if it was the original bull/ram that was caught and released to be re-introduced 5 to 10 years ago, is IMHO quite acceptable.

The change in habitat due to 300 odd years of, mostly bad, farming practices has resulted in changing much of the original grassveld or savannah into dense thorn brush thickets, just about ideal nyala habitat! Now, I think it is an indisputable fact that nyala had never occurred in the Eastern Cape (?), but some farmers with suitable nyala habitat introduced nyala on their properties. With the habitat being suitable, or even ideal, nyala do very well in such areas and breed to the point where hunting and culling is required to keep things in check! Is it OK to hunt such an artificially “introduced†or exotic species on a property where they breed naturally, are truly free ranging and on a property that is very large when judged against the requirement for such animals to escape from a hunter? Each individual must make up his own mind about this one. If you say “Yes, it is OK to hunt nyala in the Eastern Capeâ€, then I ask: “Is it OK to hunt Nyala on a ranch in Texas where they also breed well?†If not, what is the difference? If you are happy with the situation, by all means go hunt your nyala in the Eastern Cape, I won’t hunt a trophy nyala there. Shooting a nyala cow or young bull for meat as part of a cull hunt is different and I would do it if the price was right!

What is never OK is to hunt a “catch and release†trophy animal! In a previous paragraph I said it is OK to hunt a trophy that was caught and released as part of a re-introduction program. Please note that the young and virile 3 year old kudu bull that was released 10 years ago has had 10 years to adapt and get to know very intimately the farm into which he was released. He has also grown old on the farm; he grew from a young bull to become a trophy on that farm. I have no ethical hang-up about hunting him as my own trophy, and I would let my clients do the same. But, and this is a big BUT, when a fully grown trophy is caught and released, just to be hunted the next day, or the same season, it is quite different. This animal has not yet become integrated into his environment. He is harassed by the dominant established animals on the farm, if there are any, he simply does not know yet where the fences are and how to escape detection by a hunter. It is simply NOT ethical to hunt an animal within at least a few years [5?] form it’s release on a property. I will not do and I make very sure that not a single client of Andrew McLaren Safaris will ever get to hunt such a “put & take†trophy!

So, analog_peninsula or anyone else, go hunt the Eastern Cape just the way you like it, but if you want real ethical hunting at very competitive costs, in the Eastern Cape or elsewhere, send me a PM and we can discuss it!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Often when the Eastern Cape gets mentioned there is a controversy as to the authenticity of the hunting experience.
Please remember that the Eastern Cape is a big province with a wide variety of habitat and generalisations are not possible.
The semi-desert mountains of the Karoo make very big hunting country and many hunting ranches (mine included) are not high-fenced. You may need to be fit as the hunting can be physically demanding.
As for having few indigenous species, that is simply not true, as kudude says.
For more info, I suggest you contact the East Cape Game Management Association at www.ecgma.co.za or, for an objective opinion, contact PHASA
Enjoy your hunt!
[URL=www.graaffreinetsafaris.co.za]

I am no great expert, but I think the Eastern Cape is the place to get Cape Grysbok, Blue Duiker, Vaal Rehbok, Cape Bushbuck, Black Wildebeast and Cape Kudu (unless your position this is not a tru sub-species) then don't worry, Bontebok, and the color phases of the Springbok. The Nyala, Gemsbok, Blue Wildebeast etc I would leave for another hunt in say Zulu Natal or the Limpopo.

quote:

Please remember that the Eastern Cape is a big province with a wide variety of habitat and generalisations are not possible.

Correct, the E Cape may physically/'traditionally' have less big game species (but certainly has them) than other areas, but many have been there for decades on private property, and on provincial reserves (contact my friend Gavin Shaw, manager of Double Drift GR and chat with him). I can't think of any that are 'endemic' (i.e. there don't only occur in the E. Cape). It is fallible to think only of Geo-political boundaries in most cases, think rather of biomes or habitat types that are not limited by borders. The E . Cape is diverse!

To call the E. Cape not 'real' or 'true' Africa is simply nonsense! What is real or true Africa???? Savanna biome, grassland, miombo, thicket??? That would rule out Ethiopian highlands as 'real African hunting'...its high, cold and heather like. Is Fynbos or Karroo not real Africa? Of course it is! Valley Bushveld and Alexandria Forest? Of course, it occurs nowhere else.

Enjoy your E. cape hunt....I have hunted there little (kudu and springbok only) but always enjoyed the people and environment. The eastern karroo is a great place, as are the valley bushveld areas, lovely coastline too!

If you enjoy trout fishing, head up to the NE around Rhodes. Its very 'un-African', but come to think of it...totally African! Enjoy.

Guys,

I grew up in South Africa and spent many glorious Christmas holidays on the beautiful beaches of the Eastern Cape. Surfed all the breaks there. Know the area. It's a wonderful place, Wine Route, Garden Route, Karoo, fishing for elf and tunny etc. But, much as this offends the E Cape hunting ranch fraternity, trophy hunting there is, for the most part, a new phenomenon and there is a sense of artificiality about it. Yes, there are SOME indigenous species there, the Kudu being the most notable quarry, but the typical game farm has 2x the species that naturally occur. The Lowveld and Zululand areas also suffer from the SCI syndrome to some extent but those have been traditional hunting areas for ever and for the most part, the animals you will shoot there were born there and come from an ancient gene pool. But you may as well kill an Nyala or a BWB in Texas as in the E. Cape. Sorry guys, but there you have it.

For the record, I "represent" hunting areas that I believe offer a fair chase hunt for naturally occurring species in South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Mozambique, Zim, Cameroon, Tanz, Benin... I don't represent the E Cape, because I don't feel it provides the visiting sportsman with a true African experience. Hell, even the Bantu peoples steered clear of it.

Russ:

What is your definition of a "true African experience" and what is your definition of "real" Africa?

Are you a PH or booking agent or both?

Additionally Russ:

I don't understand your comment about Bantu peoples steering clear of Eastern Cape. Please elaborate.

I am going to assume your questions are sincere Buliwyf. Can't tell from your profile, it's very scanty. If you are asking these questions in order to tear down my responses (and unfortunately that happens a lot on this forum), then that's just too bad and I won't respond to any further questions from you.

Let me state at the outset that I am not posting my pocketbook. This gentleman is going to the E. Cape and he is going to hunt there no matter what I or anyone else says. And he will have a good time. Hard not to while hunting. But he should go with his eyes open.

Just wanted to let unsuspecting readers of this forum know that some of the hunting "safaris" in today's Africa are a little contrived, and while that's not really geographically specific, most of the hunting in the E Cape, as well as in the Orange Free State, is of the contrived sort. These are areas that for the most part have been commercially farmed for many decades. The natural fauna is limited and for the most part it was shot out by farmers and others who settled in these areas. Only when the "Safari Industry" developed in the eighties, and these folks saw that they could make a substantial profit from "game farming" did many of these farms establish game populations for the sole purpose of hunting. These animals were, in most cases, purchased at auction like cattle, trucked to their new homes, and released. Unfortunately, the choice of species was governed by what sells, as opposed to authenticity. So now you have species all over RSA outside of their natural habitat and range. This is particularly true in the E Cape. The Nyala is a case study. This species occurs naturally ONLY on along a small strip of subtropical coastline in KZN (and up into Mozambique), hard to hunt in the thick bush of that region, and were consequently a much sought-after and expensive trophy. But a lot of game farms (and many of these have the balls to call themselves "concessions") outside of this area now offer Nyala to the visiting hunter. The Nyala is an animal adapted to the thorn thickets and riverine brush of Zululand. To hunt him there is a challenge. To put an Nyala on the open plains of the E Cape or OFS is a travesty, in my book, and one taken in this environment is not a true trophy, and the taking of one is not a hunt. Same with Lechwe.

Furthermore, many of the very low dollar hunts offered in SA, and in particular in the E Cape, are only possible if a large number of hunters are processed through these operations. This means that game must be replenished, as natural reproduction is not sufficient to yield the number of "representative mature" animals necessary to achieve the turnover needed to support these low prices and low margins. Thus developed "put and take" hunting, and even more crass form of "safari".

Hence my aversion to the E Cape as a hunting destination.

What is "real Africa". It means different things to different peoplem, I suppose. To me, it means an area that is and always was too wild and savage to support white settlement and commercial farming; an area where the Big Five, or at least a couple of them, are found in their natural habitat. It means naturally-reproducing populations of truly wild animals and their natural predators. A jumble a flora and fauna with no order or scars from human settlement and habitation. It means dry red earth, rivers of sand, golden grasses and colorful birds calling from the limbs of indigenous trees. An area where the white man was and is an anomaly.

I could go on but you get the picture, I hope. I know it when I see it, and to me, the E Cape is not it.

Russ's description of the "real Africa:"

"To me, it means an area that is and always was too wild and savage to support white settlement and commercial farming; an area where the Big Five, or at least a couple of them, are found in their natural habitat. It means naturally-reproducing populations of truly wild animals and their natural predators. A jumble a flora and fauna with no order or scars from human settlement and habitation. It means dry red earth, rivers of sand, golden grasses and colorful birds calling from the limbs of indigenous trees. An area where the white man was and is an anomaly."


By your description, Russ, the real Africa exists no where in RSA, large parts of Zimbabwe, Tanzania, or Namibia, and doggoned few other places on planet Earth.

Russ's quote on the safari experience:

"Just wanted to let unsuspecting readers of this forum know that some of the hunting "safaris" in today's Africa are a little contrived, and while that's not really geographically specific, most of the hunting in the E Cape, as well as in the Orange Free State, is of the contrived sort."

I think that your comment about the "safari experience" could apply to most every hunt that I have been on (nine). What is the "safari experience? What Ruark or Hemmingway described? They were looking for what their fathers and grandfathers generation described. In Tanzania we lived in tents, but could have stayed in relative luxury not too far away where there were lodges. In Kikosi there was a four BR house built for a nabob who hunted there a couple of years ago we could have stayed in as opposed to the tented camp on the river. Was our rustification contrived? Is living at a farm house and hunting the mountains on unfenced farms in the Winterberg for indigenous species contrived?

I saw some video footage this week taken by an acquaintance who was hunting Kenya in the mid-50's. The animals were pretty much the same. The trucks were larger and, of course, older. The tents were similar. The camps were without hot showers, and the food was not as elaborate; however, the rest was pretty much the same as I experienced in the Caprivi last year. My hunting experience in the Winterberg is the same as the farmers who live there or those hunters who come up for the Conservancy Hunt annually. Is that contrived?

The hunting experience in the Winterberg is very similar to what one would experience in the western US in the Rockies. Is that contrived? Is it Kenya? No, and it never was. However, it is no less a legitimate "African" experience. It is hunting in the Winterberg. Hunting elk in the Rockies, isn't hunting white tail in Georgia. RSA isn't Tanzania and Tanzania isn't Cameroon or Sudan. Africa is a big place and the hunting varies from east to west and north to south.

I think that to portray the hunting in the Cape has a contrived safari experience or less than a legitimate experience is damaging to hunting generally, hunting in RSA particularly, and contrary to the facts. Can one have a "packaged" hunt in RSA in the Cape? Yes. And you can have a similar experience almost any place you go. The difference is not geographic, as you correctly mention. Legitimacy lies in the people who set up the hunt and the people who go on the hunt.

I don't generally get this disturbed or personal about post because they generally are opinions and everyone has their own; however, your post tars a bunch of really fine providers and hunters in the Cape who provide a wonderful experience for folks who want to break the ice in hunting Africa in a country that does not generate instant culture shock and anxiety over the political situation. To suggest that what they get is "illegitimate" is wrong. Kudude

Just to answer your question analog, I would take what appeals to you and you alone. Take what you budget for but do plan on taking some extra $$ in case something you hadn't planned on shows itself. That is about a 99% certainty. If you aren't planning on returning to the E. Cape, I recommend a Springbok, Impala, Black Wildebeast, Cape Kudu, Cape Bushbuck, Red Hartebeast, Blesbok and if possible, a Bontebok (CITES permit needed). If you can, please shoot every Baboon you have opportunity for. Just kidding, but getting one will be a challenge. Don't know who your hunting with but be prepared to hunt daylight till dark, and some of the terrain can be strenuous. Good hunting and enjoy yourself!

Like it or not Russ is 100% right. There will always be different opinions, You will have to decide if you are being told or sold!
Depending on the person this might or might not be the once in a lifetime hunt you always dreamed about.

Russ is 100% right.
The "TRUE" Africa experience is 2 things;
Firstly it is a legend, I think we all wish were born 100 yrs ago, so we could experience the experiences of that age, which IMO is what everyone beleives to be the "True" Africa experience.
Secondly and more importantly, the "true" Africa experience is what each individual makes it and gets from it,I think sometimes people forget this and are more concerned with tape measures and "trophies".
The Africa experience is the trophy,just being there, the smells,the noises, the countryside and all of it.
I have hunted large concessions in Zim and RSA and some of the smaller "farms" in the Eastern Cape. I will not knock any of them as they were all part of my experiences of Africa, although,I do have my favourites and less favourites

analog,

Forgot to mention the various colour phases of Springbok, get em!

And take a warm coat and gloves, I nearly froze my Aussie arse off there in 2000

[

quote:

If you aren't planning on returning to the E. Cape, I recommend a Springbok, Impala, Black Wildebeast, Cape Kudu, Cape Bushbuck, Red Hartebeast, Blesbok and if possible, a Bontebok

Thanks L. David Keith for getting back to truthfully reply to analog_peninsula's original question.

Russ,

One thing that I think should be cleared up:

BWB can be either Black WildeBeest - an indigenous Eastern Cape species in many areas of the Eastern Cape. Was almost extinct and now available as [IMHO] a legitimate trophy after being re-introduced on many hunting ranches where there is still significant grassveld plains - their natural habitat. Black Wildebeest have also been "re-introduced" to many ranches or farms where they may very well have occurred 200 years ago, but where agricultural practices have so altered the original grassveld habitat that they can now be regarded as "exotics" in that particular thornbush area. Then there are also without any doubt a number of areas within the Eastern Cape where Black Wildebeest has never occurred naturally, and where this species has recently been introduced as an 'exotic'! On these areas where the re-introduced or introduced Black WB do not do well the farmers can either call it an expensive lesson, and not offer the species for trophy hunting. Or, and many have chosen this route, the simply keep on stocking the farm with auction-bought Black WB trophies.

BWB can also be seen as meaning Blue WildeBeest: A very adaptable essentially grassveld or savannah species, but one which does very well in denser bush areas. None of the many books with distribution maps - including the one that I regard as the most aythoritive; Mammals of the Southern African Subregion, 3 edition as revised by John Skinner and Christian Chimimba, shows the Blue WB as naturally occurring in the Eastern Cape. So, as far as I'm concerned ALL Blue WB in the Eastern Cape are 'exotics’. Some were introduced on farms where they have adapted well and breed naturally. Here a hunter can take a 'legitimate' trophy, although I would advise against it. Some were introduced where they do not do well, and the farmers must yearly replenish their trophy stock with auction-bought trophies. Here an unsuspecting hunter can also take a 'trophy' - but I wish I could wanr every prospective hunter which game farmers and which hunting outfitters practice such 'put & take' hunting! Natrally I can't! But I can and do say that with Andrew McLaren Safaris no hunter will ever be exposed to put & take hunting.

So it is important for you to clearly say what you mean by BWB - which one of the 5 variants of BWB that I've described do you refer to?

I also feel obliged to inform you that I take offence by your statement that implied that the whole of the Eastern Cape does not offer a true African experience. I offer true dense thorn-thicket bushbuck stalking, and once away from the house and in the bush, the hunter is exactly at the same disadvantage as the hunters after the same species in the exact same location were 200 to 300 years ago. A true “African†hunting experience! Having read many of your posts I am quite sure that you will be man enough to admit that this particular wording conveyed a wrong message, and consider re-phrasing it. If you don't re-consider and attempt to defend the statement? Well.........

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

.

BWB is the commonly used abbreviation for blue wildebeest, you know that surely Andrew.

If you read my posts above, I did acknowledge that there are some indigenous species in the E Cape. Kudu, bushbuck, and some lesser stuff. No problem with that. My problem is that the vast majority of the game farms have stocked many many species that are characteristic of Africa but are not local species. And, as you state, if they can't reproduce successfully, they just truck in replenishments. In addition, the E Cape has a very characteristic climate, topography, and vegetation that are NOT representative of most of sub-Saharan or East Africa, the traditional hunting areas on the continent. So my statement stands, it's not the real Africa.

I understand that some folks won't agree with me, and some will be annoyed with me. Those on the selling side obviously wish that I would shut up; and some of those that have bought may feel annoyed that I am putting down their "African Experience". But hopefully my comments will educate some to make an informed safari decision.

Let's just say there are many shades of gray here. Not all E Cape operations are phony, and not all Bushveld operations are genuine. But I'm a simple black and white guy. And I happen to take a dim view of put and take hunting, and also the practice of muddying up the natural distribution of species. I take a particularly dim view of these practices and then trying to keep them a secret from foreign hunters. If you are going to offer "exotics" then at least let your clients know what they are getting into.

Here's a story that will wake some folks up. Recently, a farm in the lowveld (not the E Cape but this is the type of thing I am referring to) had some clients who wanted Oryx. There are no Oryx in that area. The animals were ordered for delivery two days prior. Each had hosepipes on its horns to prevent injury during the translocation. As they were released, a helper laying on top of the truck was supposed to pull the hosepipes off the horns. He missed one of them. So now you have an Oryx running around the bush with a piece of hosepipe on one horn and clients arriving any day. Needless to say, this animal was discreetly shot before the clients arrived, and the unknowing hunters got their Oryx trophies without suspecting a thing.

Now you tell me, Kudude, whoever you are hiding behind that silly name, who is damaging hunting in RSA? It's not me who is damaging hunting in general or hunting in RSA particularly. I can't see any logic behind that particular conclusion. It's the people who practice this deceipt that are damaging to the industry. What dog do you have in this fight, pray tell?

If it's cheap, too easy, or both, prospective hunters, there's a reason. Ask what the reason is before you write the deposit check or pull the trigger.

/

Introduced, or re-introduced does it really matter? As long as it is not put and take and is a self sustaining population it is alright with me. That does not mean I would I would hunt everything there. Nyala is a prime example. There is some good habitat and populations there but I would prefer to hunt them in KZN. That is just my preference. It is not a matter of right or wrong, just personal choice. Go hunt and have a good time. You can concentrate on the animals you want but do not be afraid to take what comes along.

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
Hi there,

I'm going to be in the East Cape sometime in the not-to-distant future. What game animals are must haves and what should I avoid taking?

This will be my first trip to Africa, so please assume that I don't know much.

Eastern Cape Kudu with Kevin "Doctari" Robertson at his farm Buffelshoek! That farm is unbeliveable, plenty of + 50" Eastern cape kudus, mountains that makes the Table Mountain look like a hill!!



Saki (tracker) and Kevin at Buffelshoek.

Send Kevin an email: buffelshoek@is.com

From Russ's Website.

"Mature Wild Lion RSA Ex Kruger, $31,500 incl. 10 days, 2007 will be last year."

So I guess since he books "not real" Lion hunts, according to most on this foroum, in South Africa. He must know the the Eastern Cape is not real African hunting!

quote:

Now you tell me, Kudude, whoever you are hiding behind that silly name, who is damaging hunting in RSA? It's not me who is damaging hunting in general or hunting in RSA particularly. I can't see any logic behind that particular conclusion. It's the people who practice this deceipt that are damaging to the industry. What dog do you have in this fight, pray tell?

Russ,

I ain't hidden' nothin'. I've been here using that handle for a very long time and before that the hyphonated version of the name (ku-dude). I am the past president of two SCI chapters, have hunted Africa nine times, and started hunting Africa in RSA with Chappie Scott (Scott of Africa).

I don't sell hunts. I don't want to sell hunts, even though I have been asked to do so by several folks (not by Chappie!) I think that my initial comment addressed analogue's question about the best animals to take in the Cape. I think that your comment could be best interpreted as saying that no hunting experience is the Cape is legit because it doesn't meet your criteria for a "real African hunt."

I have hunted Zim, Tanz, Namibia and RSA. I have hunted with very good providers and some that were not so good. My experiences reinforce my belief that before one books a hunt, you really need to check references, understand the nature of the hunt for which you are contracting, and be personally satisfied with the opportunity that is being offered.

As you have admitted, one can have a very challenging hunt for indigenous species in the Cape and you can have a very entertaining hunting experience that you and I probably would not enjoy. That does not mean that the folks who booked that second hunting experience won't enjoy it totally, and you and I have no right to judge what is, in essence, their taste.

What jerked my chain was your painting the entire experience of hunting in the Cape with a broad brush that was not accurate, isn't accurate, and distorts the reality of the experience.

When asked about hunting in the Cape, I generally say that hunting in RSA is a great way to get one's feet wet. One must be careful to get a reputable provider and understand that the experience will be more like hunting a western US ranch than a Hemmingway adventure. At its best, it offers a real challenge, in beautiful country, and for unique animals you'll not get elsewhere. Take the experience for what it is and build on it.

By the way, I plan to stay right here, callin' 'em the way I sees 'em. I don't post as much as some, and I am windier than most, but I try to speak the truth as I know it based on my experience. Kudude

PS: I picked ku-dude as a handle because I feel that folks going to Africa the first time are sold on taking a kudu. They need to go a few times and see some before they shoot one, otherwise they can get "kudu-ed." k-d

quote:

Mature Wild Lion RSA Ex Kruger, $31,500 incl. 10 days, 2007 will be last year."

Yes indeed, these are wild bred Lions that cross the fences from Kruger park into an adjoining private property. We use bait and we have been very successful for our clients, reliably delivering full-maned males with facial scars. There are no wilder lions anywhere in Africa than those in Kruger. Unfortunately, the Greens don't see it that way and they want to stop these hunts as well as the canned and captive bred variety. Hence my statement, 2007 probably the last year.

Tradewinds, I think you are getting confused with the lions hunted in the Northern Cape...another cheap and fako hunt. We can sell you one of those hunts but I will tell you upfront, you are shooting a captive bred Lion. If you want to piss on me, then hold your dick straight.

Kudude, it's a truce. I think you know what I am getting at and I understand where you are coming from. No hard feelings.

Russ,
You got it, Bear! K-D

quote:

As too the people, do you know that for years under the Afrikaner national party rule White English speaking South Africans who lived in this area since 1820 were denied social and political recognition as also being "true" South Africans?

Alf, I am one of them. A soutpiel. Paid taxes to the Nats, fought their silly and shortsighted idealogical war for them, but they still regarded me as a "fokken Engelsman".

Yes of course, the E Cape is part of Africa. So is the Sahel and Johannesburg. But I am speaking metaphorically. Maybe that's a little too subtle for a dutchman to grasp

Russ posted

quote:

Here's a story that will wake some folks up. Recently, a farm in the lowveld (not the E Cape but this is the type of thing I am referring to)............. So now you have an Oryx running around the bush with a piece of hosepipe on one horn and clients arriving any day.

So this happens elswhere as well. Any examples from the Eastern Cape?

The Bantu people avoided the Eastern Cape? I guess you are going to have a hard time convincing the Xhosa people they are not one of the Bantu races. Mandela is not a Black African!!?? Wow!

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:


As you have admitted, one can have a very challenging hunt for indigenous species in the Cape and you can have a very entertaining hunting experience that you and I probably would not enjoy. That does not mean that the folks who booked that second hunting experience won't enjoy it totally, and you and I have no right to judge what is, in essence, their taste.

What jerked my chain was your painting the entire experience of hunting in the Cape with a broad brush that was not accurate, isn't accurate, and distorts the reality of the experience.

I basically put a challenge to Russ in my previous post to rethink , or, wel…...... After reading his reply my first reaction was to take him on strongly! But the two paragraphs posted by kudude and quoted above contains much truths. No person has a right to judge another person's taste. Certainly not in public and if all the facts are not accurately known.

Russ chose to equate the "true Africa" to the East African area. OK. That's his choice. Somone may, and note I don’t say 'do', just ‘may’, choose to say that traditional African hunting is that what the first European [Dutch] colonist did: Hunt Blaauwbuck and Quagga in the fynbos of the present Western Cape. Such a person could then try to impose his tatse or beliefs on us all and say that 'anything' that is not hunting these extinct species, is not a 'true African experience'. But this would then be exactly what Russ makes himself guilty of: Attempting to impose his tastes and sense of what ‘true African hunting’ is on everyone else!

Another posting clearly identified the Eastern Cape as indeed a true part of Africa, and a genuine Eastern Cape hunting experience is also a genuine African experience! Maybe not what Russ thinks, but nevertheless a true African experience! I’ve also said that I can, and do, offer true African [of the Eastern Cape variety] hunting experiences in the Eastern Cape!

I further echo the sentiments expressed by kudude in the second quoted paragraph.

To just put the observation by Russ that not all hunting in the Eastern Cape is fake, and not all hunting elsewhere is genuine into perspective I’ll give a bit of insight into the high degree of sophistication that the put & take game shooting industry has developed. Russ, do you have any idea of how many so-called 'wild' lions hunted on areas next to the Kruger National Park are really captive bred lions? “But this lion has facial scars!†Yes, so what! How difficult is it for a lion breeder to put two grown male lions in the same cage for a bit of fighting? Nothing serious would be allowed, just enough of a fight to ensure both gets a few scars. A vet is on standby just outside the cage with a dart gun loaded with a very fast acting immobilizing drug to intervene if it seems that one can get seriously hurt! These scarred face lions are typically released when they are very hungry at bait [read their ‘given food’ - as that is what they have been used to until being delivered to the killing farm] just before the client's booked hunting period ends. The first 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 days of the clients hunt were very real, baiting and calling for lions in the hope of enticing a real wild lion from the Kruger Park. In some instances even the poor Professional Hunter does not know that he is part of a ‘hit’! If this real hunt for a truly wild lion is successful the Hunting Outfitter makes a lot of money, as the lion is really ‘free’, and he does not need to pay for it! But if this true hunting fails, and the booking agent had guaranteed the client a ‘wild lion’, well the Hunting Outfitter calls his friend at the lion breeding farm! It is arranged to have a very hungry captive bred, but specifically scarred, lion delivered right next to the bait. Being very hungry he is not likely to leave the bait and get himself lost.

So with minutes of the last light of the last day of the booked period remaining, the lucky hunter gets his trophy ‘wild’ lion! Now the Hunting Outfitter makes a bit less money, as he actually has to pay the lion breeder for the lion and delivery. But the retaining of his good name and reputation as a place where wild lions can be hunted makes up for the bit of a financial loss of having to pay for the lion. Good Brownie points to the good hunter! Good Brownie points to the good Hunting Outfitter. Good Brownie points to the good Professional Hunter. Good Brownie points to the good Booking Agent. Happy faces all around! Go read the fantastic Hunt Report posted on AR Forum on what essentially was a fake hunt, but one that could equally well have actually been a true wild lion hunt enticed over the border from Kruger National Park.

Does anyone here really think that it is only because the Park’s lions are so ‘stolen’ by owners of property along the Park border that the greenies want to stop this? Go read the context in which Russ stated that the greenies wants to stop all [lion] hunting!

Russ, I don't for a moment call your offer phony! Let me say here and now that I’m not. I simply do not know enough about the Hunting Outfitter(s) where you book lion hunting to do so. I’m not even generalizing in any way about how many hunts for lion along the open borders of the Kruger Park are in fact put & take of captive bred lions. That would be using the same broad brush with which you painted all hunting in the Eastern Cape as phony! But what I will say is that the ‘average’ American Booking Agent simply does not have the experience or knowledge, even if he has the real desire, to find out the truth about how really wild the lions that his booked clients have hunted were. Please not my use of ‘the average’, I’m not saying you can’t find out if ALL of the lions that clients have booked through you were indeed real wild lions. I hope that all prospective lion hunters will read this and go on their lion hunts with their eyes open!

I will remind everyone that the Captive Lion Breeders are now under severe pressure to get rid of their captive lions. A bit of an in-cage fight between two males soon changes a couple of “Mickey Mouse†lions, with no facial scars into a real ‘wild lions’; complete with facial scars! One is getting to be almost worthless; the other is getting to be almost priceless! The cost of getting a vet on standby with a tranquilizing dart gun during the fight is negligible in the bigger scheme of things.

In hunting there are for sure black’ and ‘white’, but, as has been remarked on this thread, there are also very many shades of grey! To get back to the original question: Analog_peninsula, go hunt what you like and can afford, but please take the attitude of Mike Smith, “it doesn’t really matterâ€, as long as the animals hunted are totally naturally breeding and the trophies have grown into trophies on that property! If you are more inclined to share my, Russ’ and a few others’, preference of only hunting a ‘trophy’ in it’s natural environment, you have enough info here to know what is natural in the Eastern Cape. But you should still always go with your eyes open!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

I want to thank everyone for their useful and thoughtful suggestions.

To Russ,
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am appreciative of folks like you who take the time to provide sincere and thoughtful responses. Those who disagree should do so with courtesy and respect.

This topic interested me because this September I too will be hunting in the East Cape. I have previously hunted in the Limpopo, Zululand, and the Free State, and along the Gwai River in Zimbabwe. The East Cape region offers some PG, such as Cape Bushbuck, that are not found in other areas. I have seen numerous shows on the Outdoor Channel of hunts in the East Cape that show terrain varying from grassy plains to brush covered mountains overlooking the Indian Ocean.

I'll agree that my African experience is very limited, but I would like to visit and hunt different places in Africa, and as I view a map of Africa, I see that the East Cape is in Africa. I would also love to hunt Botswana and/or Tanzania, but that is not financially possible at this time.

I also see alot of discussion on this thread about animals that are not "native" or animals that were "re-introduced" to the East Cape, and the implication that hunting them somehow is not "real" hunting. How is this different from the United States where in the early 1900's big game populations were at an all time low, and many animals were on the brink of extintion? Through the efforts of state game departments and sportsmans organizations such as FNAWS, RMEF, and the WTF, animals were trapped and "re-introduced" to not only their former habitat, but also to new suitable habitat. Today many of these populations are thriving, and in some areas, they are overpopulating their habitat. Is hunting a Bull Elk in Arizona not real hunting because you can trace that elk's heritage to the elk in Yellowstone Park in Wyoming?

I also don't think it would take 5 years for an animal transplanted to a new area to become totally aclimated and to become wild in that area. Given enough space, and sufficient cover, I think a wild animal would become wild in it's new habitat within 6 months to a year. If that animal is then hunted in the wild, ie, not over a feeder or food bucket in front of a permanent "hide", then i don't think hunting it is any different than hunting it in it's original habitat.

As far as analog's original question, I hope he has a great hunt in the East Cape for such as, Cape Bushbuck, Cape Kudu, Grysbok, Bontebuck, various Springboks, Steenbuck, Vaal Rhebuck, and anything else he may find. Come September, I know I will.