Seems to me the part about this rhino bull having killed 7 other rhino bulls had to factor into the decision to put him on a tag.

So, instead of the hunter using the tag he bought, he should have just left the bull to keep killing other bulls of an endangered species?

Maybe they could have put the bull in a time-out instead?

In a similar vein: http://torontosun.com/news/nat...de-b481-7dd67319ef31

Let's make decisions based on facts, not emotion. Let's make decisions based on the species, not the individual.

I don't see a single "pro" argument on the comments section. Looks like HSUS or some other organization sent a "copy and paste" email because there are lot of identical comments.

I definitely made a pro argument.

As did I.

quote:

Originally posted by WannabeBwana:
Seems to me the part about this rhino bull having killed 7 other rhino bulls had to factor into the decision to put him on a tag.

Maybe they could have put the bull in a time-out instead?

Those idiot PETA have a tag line "A cat is a dog is a man, etc. or something like that, trying to say that all are equal.

If true, then the rhino should have been arrested for homicide, tried, convicted, and executed, just like a man that kills other men.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
As did I.

+1 more

My response was as follows:

"I am writing in favor of allowing the import of the rhino. My reasons are set forth below:

1- The hunt was conducted under the laws and regulations of the country in question. This is part of its wildlife management plan. It is absolutely absurd for those from other countries to attempt to tell the country in question how to manage its wildlife. It would be a little like an African country telling the USA how to manage whitetail deer.

2- CITES has approved the quota for black rhino for the country in question. If the international organization responsible for overseeing such matters approves of this, why should the US not comply? It makes no sense whatsoever.

3- It costs an immense amount of money to conserve and protect wildlife, particular species such as black rhino. Where is that money coming from absent a hunter putting up an immense amount of money? The reality is that these poor African countries do not have the money. No one else is putting up the money. With the increased levels of rhino poaching across the continent, it makes the need of this funding all the more critical.

4- It is a fairly well established fact that many rhino bulls, as they age, become belligerent and start attacking other rhino, often killing them. Personally, I have seen this on multiple occasions in my many trips to Africa. That is exactly what happened to this rhino. He attacked and killed several other rhino. Removing this particular rhino from the population enhanced the survivability of the remaining rhino. Simply stated, five years from now, there will be more rhino living , with this particular rhino dead.

Please do not be swayed by emotional arguments. Please base your decision on laws, science and facts.

Thank you!"

Permit me to point out that Lacy is a model citizen and civic leader in his community and has given over one billion dollars to charities including more than one hundred thousand dollars to Black rhino protection several years before his hunt. He is not just one-of-us, he is one of the best of us.
See the Fact Sheet that covers the more legitimate issues raised thus far. Those among us that so easily criticize self-made Lacy and the finest, most rhino conservation program and strategy in the world should “check it.”

Conservation Force - Black Rhino Fact Sheet

I can't wait to hear what fault Eagle 27 finds with this.

quote:

I don't see a single "pro" argument on the comments section.

I am pretty sure the comment I made was "Pro"!

quote:

Please do not be swayed by emotional arguments. Please base your decision on laws, science and facts.

Publicity is the negative factor - the killing of this Rhino was well substantiated and legitimate from all logical points view.

Unfortunately the word "logic" doesn't hold water with some individuals.

If we were all to go about our hunting pursuits without too much fanfare we would attract less attention to those who are desperately trying to stop us from conducting an activity which is dear to us.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Please do not be swayed by emotional arguments. Please base your decision on laws, science and facts.

Publicity is the negative factor - the killing of this Rhino was well substantiated and legitimate from all logical points view.

Unfortunately the word "logic" doesn't hold water with some individuals.

If we were all to go about our hunting pursuits without too much fanfare we would attract less attention to those who are desperately trying to stop us from conducting an activity which is dear to us.

Why should we hide doing what we enjoy?

How much of what is going on in society today goes completely against the grain of humanity?

Are we screaming our heads trying to stop it?

We don't.

We mind our own business, and try to enjoy it.

I have stopped a long time agao pandering to the bloody idiots.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
And do you honestly care whether future generations have the ability to hunt anything or are you only worried with your future ability to hunt?

I think in the case of the 'Texan Ranger' he only cared for having a trophy on the wall that most others today haven't.

How about the the news value if that hunter had won the auction and then asked that the tag be cancelled and also made a donation on top of what he paid at auction to cover the expenses of the outfitter/PH and all those whose wages would have been derived from the hunt.

Personally I don't imagine there was an ounce of conservation thought in the Texan's mind when he purchased that tag. he'll have his lawyers on the job to make sure that trophy hangs on his wall no matter what.

One to four rhinos per year killed by poachers in the period 2006 to 2013, 90 rhinos killed in 2015. How's that showing the antis that hunters funds are saving endangered species. That is the fatal flaw in our argument. Shooting a critically endangered animal no matter how old and feeble it may be is just plain fueling the fire. We just don't get it do we!!!!

Eagle,
While lecturing of “cold hard facts” to others...why don’t you sir...adhere to your own advice. Here, you are stereotyping Lacy...throwing around monikers like “Texas Ranger.” The truth is that Lacy and his wife are kind, decent, and generous people. I don’t know him well but have met him and he is a good friend of a very good friend of mine.

Lacy puts his trophies in a very nice museum about 30 miles from my home. It is open to the public and is very well kept. He sponsors Boy Scout Troops trips to be able to come and visit the museum.

Lacy is thought very well of in our neck of the woods and is known to be a very low-key generous gentleman.

Advice to you sir: If you are going to lecture others on “cold hard facts” and “doing the right thing”...maybe first you should get facts before writing and give “doing the right thing” a try by not stereotyping people.

Lane, I don't need to stereotype Texans, they are well known for having done that themselves, usually quite willingly. No doubt, like many others who have made a lot of money through business and hard work, Lacy likely does donate a lot to worthy causes just as he could well have done in this case without killing a black rhino. if it was a problem animal it could have been quietly culled like many PAC animals are without paying hunters involved.

Obviously we wouldn't be having this discussion if the whole affair hadn't blown out, now did no one see that coming!!!!

Nevertheless each to his own and I truly hope many of you guys will still be able to hunt in the future, I just see it so pointless to needlessly hasten what maybe inevitable in some countries.

Spoken like a true idiot stereotypist who has likely spent little to zero time in Texas.

Thought you might enjoy this quite topical two liner posted in the humor section on another forum, I don't have to stereotype Texans, was done years before I was born:

What's the difference between a Texas zoo and an English zoo?
The Texas zoo has a description of the animal on the front of the cage along with a recipe.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Please do not be swayed by emotional arguments. Please base your decision on laws, science and facts.

Publicity is the negative factor - the killing of this Rhino was well substantiated and legitimate from all logical points view.

Unfortunately the word "logic" doesn't hold water with some individuals.

If we were all to go about our hunting pursuits without too much fanfare we would attract less attention to those who are desperately trying to stop us from conducting an activity which is dear to us.

Why should we hide doing what we enjoy?

How much of what is going on in society today goes completely against the grain of humanity?

Are we screaming our heads trying to stop it?

We don't.

We mind our own business, and try to enjoy it.

I have stopped a long time agao pandering to the bloody idiots.

I don't think anyone disagrees with what you are saying in principle but as in many cases in life we need to apply some diplomacy. Anyone who has hunted more than a few animals will have had situations that are not particularly nice when considering the concept of a swift and as painless a death for an animal that we choose to dispatch. I myself have experienced a few of these and I note from watching videos of your hunts that you so kindly provide, so have you and your friends. I recall one in particular of a baboon wounded in the back end and pulling itself along by it's front legs trying to escape. The PH eventually held its head down with a stick while he knifed it through the heart. These things happen in hunting and I think most of us are moved in some way when these situations happen, but I sure as hell would not publish images or video on social media showing these sorts of scenes.

I don't thinks hunters are in a position today to take the moral high ground and say I will do what I want when I want. More than one way to skin a cat. The black rhino, if it was deemed threat to other animals in the herd, could have been quietly been handled as a PAC animal and dispatched by game rangers, I don't think the antis would have taken any notice, in fact some positive publicity could have been gained if this approach had been taken.
Instead we have (forget Texan for a moment) a super rich American paying megabucks for the privilege of shooting the animal and wanting to import and hang the trophy on the wall or display it in his museum. He might be the nicest man in the world but do you really think the antis give a f..k about that.

I agree entirely with what fulvio has said and this has been the point I have been trying to make in this discussion. Why hasten the end or severely restrict the activity we all like?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
And do you honestly care whether future generations have the ability to hunt anything or are you only worried with your future ability to hunt?

I think in the case of the 'Texan Ranger' he only cared for having a trophy on the wall that most others today haven't.

How about the the news value if that hunter had won the auction and then asked that the tag be cancelled and also made a donation on top of what he paid at auction to cover the expenses of the outfitter/PH and all those whose wages would have been derived from the hunt.

Personally I don't imagine there was an ounce of conservation thought in the Texan's mind when he purchased that tag. he'll have his lawyers on the job to make sure that trophy hangs on his wall no matter what.

One to four rhinos per year killed by poachers in the period 2006 to 2013, 90 rhinos killed in 2015. How's that showing the antis that hunters funds are saving endangered species. That is the fatal flaw in our argument. Shooting a critically endangered animal no matter how old and feeble it may be is just plain fueling the fire. We just don't get it do we!!!!

Eagle,
While lecturing of “cold hard facts” to others...why don’t you sir...adhere to your own advice. Here, you are stereotyping Lacy...throwing around monikers like “Texas Ranger.” The truth is that Lacy and his wife are kind, decent, and generous people. I don’t know him well but have met him and he is a good friend of a very good friend of mine.

Lacy puts his trophies in a very nice museum about 30 miles from my home. It is open to the public and is very well kept. He sponsors Boy Scout Troops trips to be able to come and visit the museum.

Lacy is thought very well of in our neck of the woods and is known to be a very low-key generous gentleman.

Advice to you sir: If you are going to lecture others on “cold hard facts” and “doing the right thing”...maybe first you should get facts before writing and give “doing the right thing” a try by not stereotyping people.

Lane, I don't need to stereotype Texans, they are well known for having done that themselves, usually quite willingly. No doubt, like many others who have made a lot of money through business and hard work, Lacy likely does donate a lot to worthy causes just as he could well have done in this case without killing a black rhino. if it was a problem animal it could have been quietly culled like many PAC animals are without paying hunters involved.

Obviously we wouldn't be having this discussion if the whole affair hadn't blown out, now did no one see that coming!!!!

Nevertheless each to his own and I truly hope many of you guys will still be able to hunt in the future, I just see it so pointless to needlessly hasten what maybe inevitable in some countries.

Spoken like a true idiot stereotypist who has likely spent little to zero time in Texas.

Thought you might enjoy this quite topical two liner posted in the humor section on another forum, I don't have to stereotype Texans, was done years before I was born:

What's the difference between a Texas zoo and an English zoo?
The Texas zoo has a description of the animal on the front of the cage along with a recipe.

Grow the hell up. You are making yourself look like an ass, and that is me going out on a limb and assuming you are not an ass.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
And do you honestly care whether future generations have the ability to hunt anything or are you only worried with your future ability to hunt?

I think in the case of the 'Texan Ranger' he only cared for having a trophy on the wall that most others today haven't.

How about the the news value if that hunter had won the auction and then asked that the tag be cancelled and also made a donation on top of what he paid at auction to cover the expenses of the outfitter/PH and all those whose wages would have been derived from the hunt.

Personally I don't imagine there was an ounce of conservation thought in the Texan's mind when he purchased that tag. he'll have his lawyers on the job to make sure that trophy hangs on his wall no matter what.

One to four rhinos per year killed by poachers in the period 2006 to 2013, 90 rhinos killed in 2015. How's that showing the antis that hunters funds are saving endangered species. That is the fatal flaw in our argument. Shooting a critically endangered animal no matter how old and feeble it may be is just plain fueling the fire. We just don't get it do we!!!!

Eagle,
While lecturing of “cold hard facts” to others...why don’t you sir...adhere to your own advice. Here, you are stereotyping Lacy...throwing around monikers like “Texas Ranger.” The truth is that Lacy and his wife are kind, decent, and generous people. I don’t know him well but have met him and he is a good friend of a very good friend of mine.

Lacy puts his trophies in a very nice museum about 30 miles from my home. It is open to the public and is very well kept. He sponsors Boy Scout Troops trips to be able to come and visit the museum.

Lacy is thought very well of in our neck of the woods and is known to be a very low-key generous gentleman.

Advice to you sir: If you are going to lecture others on “cold hard facts” and “doing the right thing”...maybe first you should get facts before writing and give “doing the right thing” a try by not stereotyping people.

Lane, I don't need to stereotype Texans, they are well known for having done that themselves, usually quite willingly. No doubt, like many others who have made a lot of money through business and hard work, Lacy likely does donate a lot to worthy causes just as he could well have done in this case without killing a black rhino. if it was a problem animal it could have been quietly culled like many PAC animals are without paying hunters involved.

Obviously we wouldn't be having this discussion if the whole affair hadn't blown out, now did no one see that coming!!!!

Nevertheless each to his own and I truly hope many of you guys will still be able to hunt in the future, I just see it so pointless to needlessly hasten what maybe inevitable in some countries.

Spoken like a true idiot stereotypist who has likely spent little to zero time in Texas.

Thought you might enjoy this quite topical two liner posted in the humor section on another forum, I don't have to stereotype Texans, was done years before I was born:

What's the difference between a Texas zoo and an English zoo?
The Texas zoo has a description of the animal on the front of the cage along with a recipe.

Grow the hell up. You are making yourself look like an ass, and that is me going out on a limb and assuming you are not an ass.

And since when do we need permission from the USA before we can post a joke - get a life mate and put a little humor in it.

Eagle 27,
The bottom line is this: I would bet my bottom dollar that Lacy has done more for conservation of threatened species than you could likely do in 3 lifetimes.

He does not need a lecture on “how to do it right” from you...and...is a salt of the earth human being.

I will leave it at that.

Well seeing that this has, if nothing else clearly displayed why hunting will be lost for future generations, we can't sim,ply set aside our personal prejudices.

As for the comment about the hunter just donating the $$$$ and the "Problem" animal being "Quietly" culled, basically that is what happened.

The problem came to light when the hunter simply applied for the permit to import that trophy.

Looks to me like everything had been kept pretty quite concerning the animal being killed, UNTIL the permit was applied for and the "Watch Dogs" that HSUS/PETA have monitoring the Federal Register looking for such requests and began protesting.

I happen to agree with Saeed's assessment of the issue.

quote:

ANY ANIMAL hunted under CITES rules and issued with a permit should not be second guessed by the importing country!

As to the folks who know, is there any value for non scientist statements about sustainable use with USFWS?

I’ve made comments in the past on these things, but if it does nothing but aggravate me, I’d just as soon not waste my time writing a comment that will be summarily ignored.

If it does nothing else it proves hunters are concerned.

Do we simply give up and play dead?

There currently are 651 posting on the government discussion page.

there are 13 posters who are in favor of allowing the permit for the Black Rhino.

That is pathetic.

That is; I am one of the 13. Come on AR members!

ap·a·thy ˈapəTHē

noun: lack of interest, enthusiasm, or concern.

synonyms: indifference, lack of interest, lack of enthusiasm, lack of concern, unconcern, uninterestedness, unresponsiveness, impassivity, dispassion, lethargy, languor.

Apathy among hunters is just as bad an enemy as the worst anti's.

Enjoy our sport while it lasts.

http://www.heralddemocrat.com/...7t-regret-rhino-hunt


Lacy Harber doesn’t regret rhino hunt

By Drew Smith, Herald Democrat
Posted Jan 8, 2018 at 10:41 AM
Updated Jan 8, 2018 at 7:52 PM

After two animal welfare groups recently requested the U.S. government block Lacy Harber’s request to import the carcass of a black rhinoceros he shot and killed in Africa last year, the Texoma businessman and hunter said his hunt likely saved several of the critically endangered animals.

The Humane Society of the United States and Humane Society International released a joint statement last Friday in which they said permitting hunters to kill black rhinos would only drive the species closer toward extinction. But Harber, 81, said the rhino he killed in Namibia in February 2017 was an aging male who had been kicked out his heard and had fatally attacked a number of other black rhinos.

“He had turned into a rogue rhino and the Namibian game department had documented that he had killed two females and three babies,” Harber said. “But they had no money to move him off by himself somewhere. They’re very poor.”

Harber said he paid the Namibian government $275,000 for a permit to kill the animal through an auction hosted by the Dallas Safari Club in December 2016. He said the Namibian government had contacted the hunting club and discussed the problem with the rhinoceros. Harber said he was convinced to bid on the permit by a representative of the pro-hunting organization Conservation Force, who he also described as an adviser to the Namibian government. Harber also said he understood the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service would green light the import of the animal if the permit sold for at least $250,000.

“I didn’t want that permit,” Harber said. “I knew there was going to be a lot of controversy about it, but I did that to save the black rhino.”

Trophy hunting critics have called on the federal agency to block the import of the carcass and said allowing hunters to kill any black rhinoceros only drives the species closer to extinction.

“We call on the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to support the conservation of critically endangered black rhinos by keeping them alive, and not permitting trophy hunters to kill them and import gruesome ‘prizes’ into the United States,” Masha Kalinina, international trade policy specialist at Humane Society International, said in the group’s statement. “Allowing trophy hunters to kill black rhinos will take a severe toll on their populations, already under immense pressure from poaching.”

Harber, who owns the Harber Wildlife Museum in Sherman and formerly owned the American Bank of Texas institutions, said he, his two personal hunting guides and a host of Namibian game personnel spent three days hunting the rhinoceros before making the kill. Once Harber had taken the animal, he said, 4,500 pounds of meat was harvested and “distributed to needy families.” Harber said he also donated an additional $20,000 to Namibian anti-poaching efforts.

“Now, in Namibia, I am a national hero,” Harber said. “The Namibian government gave me a medallion and they also gave me documents (saying) where I had contributed ... above and beyond what anybody else in the world had ever done to help save the black rhino.”


A message seeking comment from the Embassy of Namibia in Washington, D.C. was not immediately returned Monday. The Humane Society statement said fewer than 5,500 black rhinos remain in the wild and less than 2,000 are found in Namibia.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has opened a 30-day, public comment period on Harber’s request to import the carcass. Harber said he had no issue with the Fish and Wildlife Service’s handling of the matter and did not regret his decision to take the rhino. He did, however, say that many big game hunting critics were hypocritical in their opposition.

“These people that are sitting back, hollering, ‘Don’t kill,’ they’re wearing leather belts and leather shoes and eating hamburgers for dinner,” Harber said.

With several weeks left before for the public comment period ceases on Feb. 5, Harber said he was hopeful that he would be allowed to import the rhinoceros. He said he planned to spend roughly $100,000 to have the carcass processed and displayed in his museum for visitors and students to see. Harber said he and his wife have hunted and killed the majority of the animals on display in the museum and have made more than 50 trips to Africa.

“If you don’t have a use for an animal, if it has no value, it’ll just disappear,” Harber said.

I also made a supportive comment, but I am uncertain of the value of doing so.

As I understand it, the purpose is to offer evidence. All I can do is offer informed opinion, and if that is meaningful, then the antis emotion posts are also meaningful.

To me, they should not be... either the evidence is there from the applicant and Namibia or it is not...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
That is; I am one of the 13. Come on AR members!

Make it 14.

https://thehill.com/policy/ene...-of-endangered-black


US to approve import of black rhino killed in hunt


BY MIRANDA GREEN - 09/24/18 05:38 PM EDT 162



The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) plans to approve within ten days a request by a hunter to import the trophy of a black rhino killed in a controversial hunt last year, according to an official email reviewed by The Hill.

Lacy Harber, the owner of a taxidermy museum in Texas, shot and killed the black rhino during a February 2017 hunt in Namibia. The black rhinoceros is considered a critically endangered species, but Namibia allows up to five of the animals to be killed in hunts each year, according to FWS.

Harber, who news reports say is 80 or 81 years old, won the chance to hunt the rhino after bidding $275,000 at a Dallas Safari Club event in 2016. He said he viewed the hunt as a way to raise money to protect the black rhino. The World Wildlife Foundation estimates there are currently fewer than 5,500 wild black rhinos left.

“I didn’t want that permit. I knew there was going to be a lot of controversy about it, but I did that to save the black rhino,” Harber told the Herald Diplomat in January.


While Harber’s hunt was legal and his subsequent import request is authorized under U.S. law, both were challenged by wildlife groups opposed to the idea of hunting for conservation.

The Humane Society of the United States and the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) fought to restrict the import of the rhino Harber killed since he first submitted a request for a permit this past January.

FWS alerted CBD last Thursday of its plans to approve Harber’s permit request within ten days.

“It’s disgusting to see federal wildlife officials giving a Texas billionaire a pat on the back for blowing away this incredibly rare rhino,” said Tanya Sanerib, CBD’s international legal director, in a statement.

“We shouldn’t be sanctioning the death of this majestic animal by allowing this trophy into the United States. The cruelty of trophy hunting simply doesn’t comport with efforts to save Africa’s imperiled wildlife.”

Both groups wrote a letter Monday to Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke and Acting FWS Director Jim Kurth, arguing that the permit should not be granted.

“We dispute that permits can be issued under the Endangered Species Act (“ESA”) for sport-hunted trophies of endangered or threatened species. Section 10 of the ESA authorizes the permitting of actions that enhance the survival of a species,2 and killing a critically endangered rhinoceros and importing the trophy clearly does not benefit the species,” they wrote in their letter.

Harber's permit request for the black rhino trophy will only be the forth FWS has granted from Namibia. Two were granted in 2015 and one in 2013, FWS told the Hill. FWS has never denied a permit application for the rhino.

FWS officials defended the practice of granting hunters the ability to import their trophies in the name of species conservation.

“Legal, well-regulated hunting as part of a sound management program can benefit the conservation of certain species by providing incentives to local communities to conserve the species and by putting much-needed revenue back into conservation," a FWS spokesperson said.

The spokesperson added that by law the agency does not allow trophy imports of certain protected species that were hunted in nations whose conservation programs fail "to meet high standards for transparency, scientific management and effectiveness."

A frequent U.S. method of limiting overhunting internationally is to limit or ban imports of the carcass or other animal parts from being shipped back to the country to be used in trophies.



Few hunters are interested in spending thousands of dollars to hunt an animal and not be able to bring the trophy home. The U.S. has implemented such restrictions on elephant trophy imports from various African countries deemed to not be in compliance with FWS measures of hunting conservation.

The Trump administration last fall overturned an Obama-era ban on the imports of elephants from Zambia and Zimbabwe, a move scorned by animals rights groups and others.

More recently, animal rights groups have called for a ban on the imports of giraffes, which some believe should also be listed as an endangered species. CBD, the Humane Society and the Natural Resources Defense Council formally threatened to sue the administration last week.

Harber owns and operates the Harber Wildlife Museum in Sherman, Texas, described on its website as what “may be the greatest, most complete collection of big game animals anywhere in the world.”

It pictures displays of various animals, including lions and a giraffe, that have been taxidermied.

This story was updated 9:10 p.m.

Good for him.

good result!