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First part...."lots of poaching". I guarantee there is less poaching in hunting concessions than in non-hunting concessions. e.g. Look at Kenya. Second part....why must all people in all locations be "helped" to live as we do? Seriously, I once asked a village elder in Perryville, Alaska what the difference is between his childhood and his grandchildrens childhood. His answer stuck with me.... "I was poor and happy. I ran dog teams and had to work hard to hunt and subsist. These kids are poor and unhappy. They ride snogos and 4 wheelers and watch TV on a Satellite. They want everything but what they have plenty of around them." So Jo, did "we" help them? ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Good point Frostbit :-) Perhaps i could rephrase and say help and educate those who want it. | |||
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Funny you would say that. We as hunters, often take hundreds of pounds of school supplies, medical supplies and other items with us on our hunting safaris and distribute them to the local indigenous communities. All at our own cost and expense. So, we are trying to lift our Zimbabwe friends up in that area as well. Combine that with trophy fees, jobs, anti-poaching patrols, strict trophy quotas, and conservation through the sustainability of the wildlife as a valued asset and you can see that we have Zimbabwe in our best interests long term. May I suggest that you plan to spend an entire month in a hunting camp becoming acquainted with all aspects of the business? I am sure that there are plenty of operators here that would welcome your volunteer service and would give you the chance to experience all aspects of the hunting safari business. | |||
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"Nearly 75% of trophy hunting revenue remains in Botswana. In comparison, only 27% of all tourism revenue remains in Botswana." Like I said in an earlier post; just because someone spends money in Africa, does not mean it stays there nor is it a benefit to locals Heres some more to digest; Original page with all the sources listed. http://www.scilowcountry.org/a...n_hunting_survey.htm THE BENEFITS OF HUNTING Trophy hunting by 18,500 hunters generates US$ 200 million annually in remote rural areas of Africa in 23 countries. Private hunting operations conserve wildlife on 540,000 square miles, which is 22% more land than is found in the national parks of Africa. (Lindsey, 2007, Conservation Biology) “… during the late 1990s, sport hunting is responsible for a large component of economic growth. Initially, most sport hunting revenue accrued to government and private landowners, however, more recently, an increasing proportion of such revenues has been apportioned between these two sectors and local communities.” (Report of the Southern African Development Community, a treaty organization.) "Trophy hunting is of key importance to conservation in Africa by creating [financial] incentives to promote and retain wildlife as a land use over vast areas…". (National Geographic News, March, 2007) Specific examples: Botswana Trophy hunting alone currently generates $20 million annually in Botswana and more than 1,000 jobs. $6.7 million is generated from trophy fees alone. Nearly 75% of trophy hunting revenue remains in Botswana. In comparison, only 27% of all tourism revenue remains in Botswana. Trophy hunting generates 28.2% of the income for Community Based Natural Resources Management. Almost 50% of the income is reinvested in the local rural communities. In 1993, the Chobe Enclave Conservation Trust district council produced $12,000 in revenue by sub-leasing resource use rights to safari operators. In 1994 the Trust’s revenue more than doubled to $27,000, in 1995 revenue jumped to $77,000, and in 1996 the Trust earned $100,000 in revenue. Sankuyo Community followed suit in 1996 by sub-leasing their resource rights for $90,000 per year, and the Beetsha/Seronga Community sub-leased their rights for $110,000. Namibia: LIFE, Living in a Finite Environment 2004 estimates show that trophy hunting in Namibia generates $28.5 million, representing 14% of tourism revenue and 2.3% of the entire GDP. The Namibian economy is 38 times smaller than South Africa’s therefore the income from trophy hunting is 9 times more important. By 2003, local communities had placed 74,000 square kilometers of land into 29 conservancies, which represent approximately 75% of all hunting lands in Namibia. These 29 conservancies involve almost 150,000 rural individuals through trophy hunting, conservancy management or secondary industries. The fee for hunting a single elephant is greater than what could be generated by thirty households from agriculture or livestock in a single year. Zambia: ADMADE, Administrative Management Design Program By 1999 trophy hunting in Zambia produced close to $4.0 million annually, however some estimates were as large as $10 million In 2004, Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) disbursed K1.8 billion to 49 communities living in and around Game Management Areas around the country. Zambia Wildlife Act of 1998 states that all revenues from trophy hunting will accrue back to the state: includes hunting rights fees paid for lease of land, permit fees for the hunt and the trophy -- The government allocates the funds quarterly on a percentage basis for Wildlife Management-45% (Zambian Game Scouts), Community Development-35% (Community Infrastructure Projects) and Administrative-20% ZAWA has many contractual requirements that safari operators must comply with to enhance the economic benefits and overall quality of life in rural communities -- These requirements include: Development and management of roads Employment of Zambian Professional Hunters or Apprentice Hunters Minimum of 80% of labor must come from neighboring communities Fulfillment of contractual pledges to develop local infrastructure: schools, clinic, wells Employment of Zambian game scouts to manage both wildlife and poaching Zimbabwe: CAMPFIRE, Communal Areas Management Program for Indigenous Resources Economic earnings peaked at $22.3 million in 1998; however since 1999 political instability within Zimbabwe due to government land seizures have caused a decline in revenue. Still trophy hunting generated $12 billion Zimbabwe dollars in 2004 and accounted for approximately 60-90% of all revenues for the Department of National Parks and Wildlife Management. In 2000, 20 to 30% of income from trophy hunting was produced on private land, while 70-80% was produced on the communal lands. Trophy hunting generates 85-90% of the income from wildlife in CAMPFIRE areas. CAMPFIRE has taken strides to restore natural resource use rights to 600,000 of the poorest people in Zimbabwe. From 1989 to 1994 CAMPFIRE earned US$ 6,054,198. South Africa South Africa has the largest share of trophy hunting in Africa and is responsible for nearly 85% of all trophy exports (Falkena 2003) U.S. $100 million was generated by foreign trophy hunters in South Africa in 2000 (Anderson 2003) with estimates surging to nearly $137 million per year if multiplier effects and secondary industries are considered (Damm 2004a) Believed that the nearly 70,000 individuals are employed by trophy hunting and its related industries (PHASA 2004) with nearly 6,000 being directly involved (Chardonnet 2002 and Patterson & Khosa 2005) The recovery of White Rhino from 30 to nearly 11,000 in South Africa has been directly attributed to the incentives resulting from trophy hunting (Leader-Williams et al 200?) Tanzania Has the 2nd largest share of trophy hunting in Africa after South Africa (Hurt & Ravn 2000) In 2001 trophy hunting estimates ranged from as high as $36.1 million to as low as $27.1 million (Baldus & Cauldwell 2004) Trophy hunting employs approximately 3,700 people annually with 2,282 individuals are permanently employed by trophy hunting with another 2,000 seasonally employed (www.tanzania.go.tz/) who in turn support a minimum of 88,240 families (Hurt & Ravn 2000) There was approximately a 325% increase in trophy hunting revenue between 1988 and 1996 (Broomhead 1997) 33% of trophy hunting revenues accrue to the state as compared to only 8% from eco-tourism which goes to support the government (Baldus & Cauldwell 2004) In Selous Game Reserve, Trophy Fees represent 60% of trophy hunting income Baldus & Cauldwell 2004) Revenue retention schemes have been devised where 50% of income is retained by the reserve for management and infrastructure investment (Baldus et al 2003) Revenue distribution for reserves with retention schemes (Kayera 2005) 25% goes to Tanzanian Wildlife Protection Fund 25% to the central treasury 50% is retained by the reserve Under this scheme 42 district councils have received $5 million from 2000/1-2004/5 (Kayera 2005) 50 of 80 villages around the Selous Game Reserve have created Wildlife Management Areas where sustainable wildlife utilization is the primary land use with through tourism or consumptive utilization (Baldus et al 2001) Sources Anderson, H.J. 2003. An econometric analysis of the wildlife market in South Africa. MSc Thesis, Univerity of Cape Town, Cape Town, South Africa. Anon, 2005c. wildlife off-take, economic impact of hunting in Botswana. Presentation at the IV AWCF meeting, Mauritius, 7th-9th November 2005. Baldus, R.D., & Cauldwell, A. 2005. Tourist hunting and its role in development of wildlife management areas in Tanzania. Proceedings of the 6th International Game Ranching Symposium. Paris July 6-9, 2004. International Foundation for the Conservation of Wildlife, Paris. Baldus, R.D., Kibonde, B., & Siege, L. 2003. 15 Years of Conservation Partnerships in the Selous Game Reserve and Ecosystem in Tanzania. PARKS, 13(1): 50 – 61. Baldus, R.D., Hahn, R., Kaggi, G., Kaihula, S., Murphree, M., Mahundi, C.C., Roettcher, R., Siege, L., Zacharia, M. 2001 Experiences with community based wildlife conservation in Tanzania. Tanzania Wildlife Discussion Paper, Number 29. Bond, I., Child, B., de la Harpe, D., Jones, B., Barnes, J., & Anderson, H. 2004. Private land contribution to conservation in South Africa. In B. Child Editor. Parks in trasition. Earthscan, UK. Booth, V. 2002. Analysis of wildlife markets (sport hunting and tourism). WWF-SARPO report, Harare. Broomhead, N. 1997. Income arising from game hunting by Tourists, report No. 2. Tourist Hunting Section of Wildlife Department, Ministry of Natural Resources and Tourims of United Republic of Tanzania, Dar es Salaam. Chardonnet, P.H., des Clers, B., Fischer, J., Gerhold, R., Jori, F. & Lamarque, F. 2002. The Vaule of Wildlife. Rev. sci. tech. Off. int. Epiz. 21(1): 15-51. Child, B. 2000. Application of the southern African wildlife experience to wildlife utilitzation in Kenya and Tanzania. In H.H. T. Prins, J. G. Grootenhuis, and T. T. Dolan, editors. Wildlife Conservation by Sustainable Use, Conservation Biology Series. Kluwer Academic Publishers, London. Chimuti, T. Zimbabwe: country presentation on hunting. Presentation at the IV AWCF meeting, Mauritius, 7th-9th November 2005. Cumming, D.H.M. 1999. Study on the development of transboundarynatural resource management areas in southern Africa. Environmental context: natural resources and conservation. Biodiversity Support Programme, Washington, DC, 67pp. Damm, G. 2005a. Hunting in South Africa: facts, risksa dn opportunities. African Indaba, 3(4): 1-14. Damm, G. 2004b. Hunting creates financial benefits in Zambia. African Indaba, 1(4):3. Elliot, J. & Mwangi, M. 1009. The opportunity cost of the hunting ban to landowners in Laikipia, Kenya. Laikipia Wildlife Economics Study Discussion Paper CEC-DP-4, African Wildlife Foundation. Falkena, H. 2003, Game ranch profitability in South Africa. The S.A. Financial Sectore Forum, Rivonia. Humavindu, M. N. & Barnes, J. I. 2003. Trophy hunting in the Namibian economy: an assessment. South African Journal of Wildlife Research, 33(2): 65-70. Hurt, R. & P. Ravn. 2000. Hunting and its benefits: an overview of hunting in Africa with special reference to Tanzania. Pages 295-314. In H.H.T. Prins, J.G. Grootenhuis, and T.T. Dolan, editors. Wildlife Conservation by Sustainable Use, Conservation Biology Series. Kluwer Academic Publishers, London. Hutton, J.M. & N. Leader-Williams. 2003. Sustainable use and incentive-driven conservation: realigning human and conservation interests. Oryx, 37: 215-226. Kampamba, G. 2005. Safari hunting in Zambia. Presentation at the IV AWCF meeting, Mauritius, 7th-9th November 2005. Kayera, J.A. 2005. Conservation and trophy hunting activities. Presentation at the IV AWCF meeting, Mauritius, 7th-9th November 2005. Leader-Williams, N., Milledge, S., Adcock, K., Brooks, M., Conway, A., Knight, M., Mainka, S., Martin, E., & Teferi, T. 2005. Trophy Hunting of Black Rhino Diceros bicornis: Proposals to ensure its future sustainability. Journal of International Wildlife Law & Policy, 8(1): 1-11. Modise, Sedia, Botswana: the Role of Wildlife in Developing Sustainable Land Use Management, “Rural Development and Conservation in Africa”, Ed: Paula Hirschoff, Simon Metcalfe, Liz Rihoy and Eren Zink, African Resources Trust, 1996 Nuding, M.A. 2004 Wildlife Management in Namibia: the Conservancy Approach. In O’Riordan, & Stoll-Kleemann S. editors. Biodiversity, Sustainability and Human Communities: Protecting beyond the protected, Cambridge University Press. Patterson, C. & Khosa, P. 2005. Background research paper: a status quo study on the professional and recreational hunting industry in South Africa. http://www.wag.co.za/Canned%20lion/final_draft.html. PHASA. 2004. South African hunting guide, 2004. Professional hunting association of South Africa, Octagon creative, Johannesburg. Sithole, Abraham, The View from the Village: the Community Perspective, “Rural Development and Conservation in Africa”, Ed: Paula Hirschoff, Simon Metcalfe, Liz Rihoy and Eren Zink, African Resources Trust, 1996. ULG Northumbrian Ltd. 2001. Economic analysis of commercial consumptive use of wildlife in Botswana. Botswana Wildlife Management Association (BWMA), Maun, Botswana. Weaver, C.L. & Skyer, P. 2003. Conservancies: integrating wildlife land-use options into the livelihood, development, and conservation strategies of Namibian Communities. Paper presented at the 5th World Parks Congress, September 8-17, Durban, South Africa. | |||
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Use Enough Gun, From speaking to many here i have no doubt that the majority here are extremely passionate about conservation etc. | |||
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Thank you Dinsdale, i appreciate you posting this. Ill wade through over next couple of days. | |||
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The sum of all of this is that both industries have thrived and co-existed in the past and hopefully will do so in the future. Kenya is a prime example of what happens when one (hunting) is removed from the mix...We don't want an Africa full of Kenyas! JW | |||
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1+ ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Jolouburn I posted those numbers to show that the numbers you originally posted were way, way off(you wrote: "Don't know how long it is since you lot went on a photo safari but you're talking £6000 upwards.". Most of what you posted in your reply is incorrect:
Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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These prices are pulled from the http://www.kenyasafaris.com website. I am posting them to illustrate that photo safaris DO NOT start at 6000GBP as you stated. Also, the website shows many safaris that are between 3 and 10 days. Please note that "budget" safaris start at $60 per day and "deluxe" Kenya safaris start at $175 a day.
Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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And there's a Lion hunt advertised in the offered hunts section at $2,500 per day for 21 days.  ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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JBrown, I'm going to be blunt here as i'm sick of faffing around with this now. There is no offence meant by the following. Shifting the parameters in a discussion does you (generic)no favours whatsoever. First it was only that a safari costs around $5000. Then it was a 7 night safari costs that and now the cost of air fare etc is not allowed in the equation. Please stop shifting the fences to support your agenda.
So what? I still have to pay for my flight to go on safari. It is part of the over all cost which is what was being discussed in the first place.
I know many people who go on safari and not one of them would go for under 14 days. They are all brits, i didn't claim to know what americans or any other nationality does.
I didn't quote the $499 i used as an example of a nightly safari cost here, someone else did. I used their example, if that cost is (you think) high take it up with them.
Again so what it is part of the cost of the safari and that was the cheapest budget flight i could find for this time of year.
How am i down playing hunting when i am perfectly aware going hunting is far more expensive than a safari is? I personally would say that probably hunting and photo safari play their part in the economy. My point in starting this thread was i was led to believe that hunting contributed far more than 0.06% of its annual turnover that my original research shows. Now i have other research to study and weigh up i will be able to look at the situation much better. The problem with some of you here is that you like many antis are far too emotional and react very defensively to anything or anyone that dares to question aspects of hunting. Well believe it or not there is good and bad everywhere and whilst many antis have their own agenda so do some hunters and they will do anything they can to protect that agenda. Honestly i have found that many times over here and im sure i will continue to. There are parties on both sides of the fence that do themselves absolutely no favours at all and just make themselves look petty and selfish. I personally will continue to seek the knowledge that will help me decide where i stand on the issues of hunting, conservation etc. How many of you (generic) can say the same thing, that you continue to try and learn about the other side and maybe seek some common ground that can be worked on. And please dont tell me you have tried and recieved abuse because haven't we all? Yes we have but some of us try and continue to bridge the gaps and do what is best for the conservation of many species. And if that makes me sound bad in any way i really dont give a rats ass because im sick of being pulled from pillar to post and having my words twisted or put in my mouth. Im sick of being told what i think, why im here and what my agenda is. If you want to know these things ASK, dont presume. Rant over. | |||
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The basic problem is for the "anti" they are not willing to allow hunting in any form nor any for any reason. Hunters on the other hand aren't attempting to stop or prevent the "anti" crowd from doing anything. The "anti" crowd is free to "not hunt" or just do photos if they so choose. The crux of the issue is they feel they have to impose their beliefs on the hunters. | |||
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Perhaps that is because the "questioning" usually leads to a ban of some sort. Perhaps, and I do believe this, you personally may not want to ban hunting but you have admitted giving to "Lion Aid" so in essence you have contributed to the next step towards a ban. rant over ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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It is impossible to discuss the issue of hunting's impact on the economies of African countries when you begin by stating something so unbelievably incorrect(that Kenya brings in four times more from photo safaris than the rest of the convenient brings in from hunting). BTW, Do you really believe that Kenya brings in nearly a billion dollars each year from photo safaris? Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Well with respect i am not your average anti. I'm not even sure anymore that i am an anti. I don't want to take away your right to hunt as long as the species you hunt is sustainable. The actual crux of the issue is that antis believe hunters endanger species. Not entirely on their own of course, there are other factors. Whilst you believe the anti is trying to take away your right to hunt, the anti believes you are taking away entire species feom them. Frostbit, I see your point regarding my contribution to Lion Aid. As of yet i have contributed nothing but i am in the middle of arranging an auction. I still am not entirely sure where i sit on the conservation of the lion but when i do then my efforts will go to supporting whichever side of the fence i take. As for questioning leading to bans i have not come here to use things you say against you elsewhere. I think as time goes on you will see this and hopefully come to trust me. JBrown, No i wasn't wildly incorrect with my figures regarding the cost of safari. You just changed the parameters to suit your cause. Hey ho, shit happens. I didn't state anything i posted research which stated. There is a huge difference and i think you know this. Ok i get you think my figures from research i found are incorrect and perhaps they are. But until i manage to study other research which can give me a balanced outlook i wont comment on whether they are true or not because i just dont know it for a fact. The problem here is that some get confused between fact and opinion. Do i really believe? We'll see when i have looked at more research. | |||
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You know, I have to wonder at anyone's directing these questions at a hunting forum, or the depth of your interest in the animals, since last night on the Animal Channel here, I happened to see a show of a troop of cuddly chimpanzees, large and small, surrounding a band of small monkeys to kill and eat them all. Bearing in mind that animals do such things every day, I tend to be skeptical of those who question the hunting community, which for the most part shows respect and concern about game populations and spends a lot of money around the world to nurture them, even species that are not hunted. Rather than confronting a hunting support group, there frankly are many other sources that appear (at least to me) to be entirely "objective" and should thus be acceptable to you. Maybe you are not a researcher, but a little more (maybe one minute's!) looking on the Internet by Googling "hunting ban Kenya" gave me several sources including this one: http://www.awf.org/documents/CEC-DP-4_hunting_ban.pdf which is a study entitled "The Opportunity Cost of the Hunting Ban to Landowners in Laikipia, Kenya" by Joanna Elliott and Muthoni M Mwangi, November 1998. It is not hard to find such studies. Kindly note this statement on page 8 of the study, which of course was in 1998 dollars: “The average trophy hunter spends 100 times more on his African safari that the typical well-heeled viewing tourist.” “Viewing tourist” surely means photo safari patron. Also see the Safari Club Interntional survey of expenditure breakdown for a “typical” trophy hunting safari at the same page, which shows an average of US $49,000 for an “average” 21-day safari. Naturally, there are many expenditures that do not directly benefit the host country, but look at all those that do. I could analyze this more for you, but I am in Japan, and it is surely as easy to do it yourself. Why not draw your own conclusions. What are you doing? Writing a paper? Norman Solberg International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016. | |||
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So if you read this, the Kenya report does claim almost a million tourists and at current exchange about $780M US from that sector.... Hmmm 33,000 from Uganda alone...... These seem optimistic for a country of 34M, a median age of 15, and life expectancy of 53. Maybe they live the good life on safari in their short years here touring the national parks with their DSRL's....maybe I'm just a cynic ------------------------------------------------ Kenya recorded the highest number of tourists’ arrivals ever at 1,095,945 tourists as at 31ST December, 2010. This was a 15% growth compared to the 952,481 experienced in 2009. This figure excludes the cross border tourists’ arrivals which could add up to another approximately 700,000 tourists once the results are fully tallied by the Kenya National Bureau of Statistics. The 2010 Tourism performance has surpassed the 2007 record by 4.5 percent the later being the best recorded year in terms of tourist arrivals and earnings. “This performance is impressive and is optimistic to achieving Kenya’s vision target of 2million international tourists by 2012,” the Minister for Tourism Hon. Najib Balala said today while releasing the results to the Press at Utalii House. The sector has earned Kshs 73.68 billion in terms of revenue earnings within the same period. This is the highest tourist revenue ever recorded and it represents an impressive growth of revenue by 18 percent compared to the 2009 revenues. The Minister said, he was impressed by the performance of the sector that has shown great resilience in spite of the local and global challenges. He accrued the impressive performance to aggressive marketing in the new markets and efficient utilization of the resources available. He said Kenya Tourist Board has continued to reposition the destination since 2009 as a high value for high spending tourists and this is paying dividends. Hon. Balala said India, Russia, China and Middle East has shown great improvement though little resources were put into marketing in the regions. United Kingdom was leading in terms of arrivals with 174,051 followed by United States 107,842 while Italy and Germany took third and fourth positions at 87,694 and 63,011. France took the fifth position with 50,039 visitors. Uganda topped the African market with 33,900 followed by South Africa 33,076 and Tanzania with 30,264. From Asian markets, India led with 47,611 arrivals followed by China 28,480 and UAE 14,874. Hon. Balala lamented the decline of cruise tourism which recorded only 508 arrivals as compared to 12,096 received in 2009. He blamed insecurity along the Indian Ocean for this decline. http://www.tourism.go.ke/minis.../pages/facts_figures ------------------------------------------------ Like has been said....ahhhh.....statistics  | |||
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Then in your first comment you and all hunters can totally agree - no sport hunter wants to see animal populations depleted/eliminated/eradicated. It is entirely counter hunting. i.e. no more animals equals no more hunting. Every hunter wants to increase the numbers of animals (to within the limits the ecology of a given area/region can sustain) because it increases the availability of hunting. There has never been a species of animal, in modern times (last 50 yrs) that has been "hunted" by sport hunters into or near extinction, under and within the constraints of a well regulated hunting industry. In the US there has been one - the Passenger Pigeon at the end of the 18th century. There have been other species that have been eradicated in certain areas around the world by poachers, farmers and ranchers because the game animals had no "economic" value. Cases in point are the Lion, Leopard and Cheetah that where shot on sight or poisoned because until a well regulated sport hunting industry gave them an equal or greater "economic value" than the domestic animals they killed. Another case in point are the East African Black Rino that are being decimated by POACHERS NOT HUNTERS. The primary reason nearly all of the game parks in Africa were started in the first place (beginning of the 19th century) was because "hunters" began to realize the continued "unregulated" hunting was not "sustainable". If the "free market" economic principles/models and actual hunting "business" wasn't currently more economically beneficial than "photo only" safaris then hunting would quickly become obsolescent. If you actually LOOK into the animal populations in Kenya PRIOR to the total ban on hunting 30-35 years ago to today's current animal populations (some species in Kenya are near total collapse) and at the same time compare the animal populations in, South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Tanzania, Mozambique and Zambia BEFORE they allowed a regulated sport hunting industry 15 - 20 years ago, to TODAY'S animal populations you would be absolutely dumfounded by the population INCREASES in those countries. In many cases they are now facing problems of over population and having to cull animals to prevent the animals from facing futures of starvation - look up elephant populations in the Chobe river basin for example. Since you seam to like "researching" stuff, you should look up the "economic impact" of the Biltong industry and how much game meat is raised and killed for food and not just "sport hunting" - those animals just don't walk into the abittoir all by themselves. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Molepolole: oddsix - Thanks for your input on this thread. Thanks Molepolole This was the first time I've ever responded on AR. I have however been devoted to reading the posts here and enjoy the fact that people can speak their minds no matter what their views are. Keep up the good work AR! | |||
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Me, too. The only animal I ever saw outside the parks in Kenya while working there off and on for eight years was a cobra. On a 7-day buff hunt in the Selous in 2006 in K4 and K3, we counted over 25 species, from elephant, (plenty), lion, (several), to the occasional monkey. I shot exactly two animals and spent a hell of a lot more on that little hunt than any photo snapper would on a park tour. | |||
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I wonder what percentage got mugged? | |||
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Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Fantastic responses, well done hunters! Thank you Jolo, you have done me a service here - this thread provides more than enough hard fact for a critical response to this ridiculous IUCN report which certain people in other groups have asked me to put together. I don't expect any major headway to be made by doing so - some positive comment from those who are not blindfolded, and nothing at all from those who contribute nothing at all to conservation with their uncompromising stance, as usual... But I believe it is important to get the REAL TRUTH out there anyway... How blatant the antis are in their refusal to accept any positive pro hunting fact. And how pathetic their silence is when presented with such fact. Good luck with your research, we are encouraged to see folks like you peeping out from beneath the blindfold. What you must understand is that many on this site live in or spend a great deal of time in wildlife areas - they know what goes on on the ground and therefore know how ridiculous the average extremist anti's 'argument' is. Where you are way off the mark is with your comparison between hunters and antis emotional approach. There is no comparison - you have been treated with a great deal more respect here than I have been by antis in non hunting groups. What encourages me is that in most instances the whackheads have been brought into line by non hunters. Indeed, I have made enough progress to get admins on one huge non hunting group to ban anti hunting rhetoric. Though there is a massive mountain to climb, the good news for us is that the majority of non hunters are not crazy and do genuinely want what is best for wildlife, unlike the fanatics who cannot possibly have any agenda other than to fill their pockets with the cash of the uninformed gullible. | |||
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I can tell you with absolute certainty, that no matter how many immature animals are killed accidentaly by hunters, they come nowhere near as many as killed by poachers. I would hazzard a guess that hunters kill less than 1% compared to what the poachers kill. And the sad part is the governments in some countries are not doing enough about. And they add insult to injury, by not allowing non-government entities to do it either. If all the anti-hunting orgenizations really want to see the conservation of wildlife, they would put their efforts into persuading governments to do something about the poaching. Which is getting out of control in several countries. Instead of being so blind to the real danger and keep screaming their heads off to ban hunting. And now the Chinese have a foothold in East Africa, one can only guess what is goling to happen. | |||
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What animals do well in strip mines?  ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Yeah, the strip mines will be hard on wildlife. But just think how much more money will be made by converting the wildly inefficient, barely profitable, hunting areas into strip mines. And once the ore is depleted all that will be left is a big hole, and you know that a hole requires a lot less upkeep than a wildlife area. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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jolouburn, to digress just a minute or three; what would be your response if I ask you if you have stopped abusing children under the age of ten? This is a variation on the universal theme of accusing your opposite view point supporters of something that cannot be responded to. You cleverly make a statement that can have no acceptable response, and at the same time you situate yourself on the high moral ground. You bring questionable data to the forum and then say "if you do not prove me wrong, I am right..." In America we call that the "If, then..." fallacy of assumption. Some years ago the anti-hunters pushed hard to try and eliminate Elephant hunting in Africa. Do you recall that effort? The CITES people actually went to the trouble of taking an aerial survey, and calculating numbers from their objective data gathered. The best scientific figures, arrived at by a neutral study; gave a number of 1.2 to 1.3 million Elephants in Africa. The data arrived at by private organizations always reflects the bias of those organizations. With Kenya not having hunting, one could safely assume that tourists are there to engage in non-consumptive use of wildlife. The simple way to calculate that impact is to just find out how many planes land in a given week by type and capacity. Airport capacity is not subjective, it is what the numbers show. | |||
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I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but in reading the prior posts it seems that there are about 1,000,000 tourists who visit Kenya each year and photo safari tourists spend about $800MM in total. Or so they say. That means that each photo safari costs $80,000. Poppycock. Check your data. Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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$800 million divided by 1 million = $800 not $80,000  I'm more confused than ever! Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Seriously, does anyone regard ANY of these figures quoted by the Kenya government to be truthful? I have only been through Kenya once, passing through on the way to a hunt elsewhere, but I simply cannot believe Kenya gets such numbers of "tourists." At that time, the most common tourism seemed to be sex tourism to Nairobi by Europeans and that was declining because of the rise of Aids. Are the Ugandans properly so characterized? Has anyone else thought more highly than I do about the state of government corruption and plain old lying there? I wonder what they will claim for 2011 and I for one will be watching with interest. Has anyone in the tourist industry noticed the violent kidnappings and killings of tourists in Kenya by Somalis? Hmmm.
Norman Solberg International lawyer back in the US after 25 years and, having met a few of the bad guys and governments here and around the world, now focusing on private trusts that protect wealth from them. NRA Life Member for 50 years, NRA Endowment Member from 2014, NRA Patron from 2016. | |||
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Peddling falsehoods and creating confusion is anti strategy. | |||
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David, surely you can't believe this fine lady has no agenda and would peddle falsehoods- EVEN THOUGH HER STATISTICS ARE ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT!!!. I REPEAT---DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Then please tell me now honestly that you are not Liz mentioned in this blog piece from Lion Aid. "Do take the time to read the Accuratereloading entries while sitting at your next airport. And do consider the wonderful world of conservation hunting as is revealed. Thanks to a wonderful LionAid supporter who digs in muck on our behalf, if I was Liz you would have an OBE. Lion Aid Blog ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jolouburn: Fairgame, The comparison was that a non hunting country brings in more than ALL the hunting African countries. Firstly, the Kenyan Government itself does not even state that photo tourism brings in $840 million dollars. This number is quite frankly fictitous. Secondly, you must look at how income is derived from Photo tourists. The vast majority of photo operators simply pay a fee to a Park or wildlife area for the privilige of taking their clients around said Park. This most certainly works and creates a sustainable income in popular destinations such as Kruger Park etc, however it also has a down side in that these areas are expected to be developed to cater for these tourists(ie tar roads,visitor complexes,camp grounds etc) This is my opinion is not preservation of an enviroment but rather commercialisation of it. You must also take into account that in countries where there are less popular destinations, Photo tourism simply does not meet costs. Within countries there are regions which can rely on photographic safaris and others which just do not have the numbers to rely on photographics for survival. An example of this is Victoria Falls which has large numbers of photographic tourists and at the other end of the scale, Gona Re Zhou or even ,if taken in context,Hwange National Park,who have very little support from Camera clients. It is a simple and irrefutable fact that National Parks in Zimbabwe have survived because of hunting and hunting alone. The lack of photographic revenue has caused major problems in some Parks. When Parks are broke, this opens the door for unscrupulous operators to resort to hunting in order to generate funds for cash strapped entities. Whilst still on regions, it should also be remembered that very few photographic clients will climb into a landcruiser,travel 6 hours, stay in a bush camp, and see a relatively small variety of species. They prefer to transfer in luxury, stay in lodges and see varieties of game. Hunters who travel to remote areas do so in order to target specific species and are not phased if they dont see 30 different species during their stay. Finally you have to look at the yield that each sector brings. The average hunter will spend approximatley USD15k to USD18k on hunting alone. The average Photographic client will spend $8 to 10K. These figures are Zimbabwean based but I would guess that the 6k British sterling you quoted would be for a family safari rather than for an individual. I know a number of operators who are both photographic and hunting operators(myself included) and speaking from this perspective I can honestly say that The revenue from hunting is significantly more than that generated from Camera clients. | |||
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one final thought.........if hunting is not sustainable and does not contribute, why have Kenyan wildlife numbers FALLEN and Tanzanian numbers increased over the last 20 years. | |||
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Jolouburn comes to a well known pro-hunting forum and poses a question which is designed to stir up trouble. "Big game hunting in Africa is economically useless" All of the pro-hunting responders try to explain the obvious to no avail. Jolouburn claims this is just a learning process. Grow up and learn somewhere else. | |||
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Jolouburn or should I call you Liz? I took some time to find out about your facts (you keep going on about no-one on AR having any facts) and it seems that the article in the wildlife extra news is not the official IUCN position, as you and lion aid would have us believe. Please see the email that I received below. Hi Zig, hi others Thanks for the interest. I don’t know who have prepared the article that is posted on the Wildlifextra website, but it is directly extracted from a study we conducted 18 months ago. The study is mainly focused on West and Central Africa, but tried to enlarge the discussion and established comparison with other hunting areas in Africa. You can find the whole text on papaco.org, page “our publications” and then page “our studies”. It’s the n° 2 of them (by the way we have conducted more than 10 works of that kind, not all of them available in English yet). What is important, is that people using the study have a full look at it, as it’s currently being used by different stakeholders but in a quite partial way (it has been used by hunters to justify the hunting activity too…). Our objective was to feed the discussion about hunting and conservation in Africa, not necessary to make a statement. And as all our study, this should not be seen as an IUCN official position (very difficult to obtain and only possible at the HQ level) but as a contribution of one of IUCN’s program, in that case the program on protected areas in West and Central Africa that I lead. Thanks again for your interest, and at your disposal if you need more clarification. All the best Geoffroy MAUVAIS UICN-PACO/ESARO (Ouagadougou/Nairobi) Programme Aires Protégées d'Afrique & COnservation (Papaco) Program on African Protected Areas & COnservation (Papaco) This is the website: http://www.papaco.org/angl%20nos%20etudes.htm And this is the paper if you have the inclination to read all 110 pages. http://www.papaco.org/etude/Et...chasse%20anglais.pdf This is the disclaimer at the top of the first page: "The geographical terminology used in this study, and its presentation, are in no way an expression of any opinion on the part of the IUCN regarding the legal status or authority of any country, territory or region or on the tracing of its borders. The opinions expressed in this publication are not necessarily those of the IUCN." One point that I would like to make with regards to the number of lion that they claim are shot in Africa each year. Of the 600 that is claimed at least 400 of that number would be canned lion from South Africa and have absolutely no bearing on wild lion populations. Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Folks Irrespective of where people come from or what their ulterior motives are, \I still beleive that we must not become guilty of behaving just like the antis. Antis choose to ignore the facts and have a blinkered view of the world. Thier biggest single fault is that they choose to disregard the opinions of others irrespective of whether they make sense of not. The fact is you will never convince an anti that hunting is viable. However it is the fence sitter or average Joe that we must convince. Resorting to agression and falsitudes is something we must leave to the antis. I beleive we should simply deal in facts and present them in as simple manner as possible. If Liz cant understand them or chooses to ignore them...there is nowt we can do about it | |||
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