oddsix - Thanks for your input on this thread. Your comments were probably the most common-sense ones posted here. In the past I've joined in on threads of this type, which talked about the positive economic impact of hunting, but I initially gave it a pass this time because who ever wrote that article is clearly a person with highly questionable figures/statistics and an obvious agenda. I agree with you that it is ridiculous to take conservation out of the discussion, because without it you wouldn't have photo safaris OR hunting, and therefore the employment figures are moot. The author of the article would have us believe that all big game hunting areas would be put to much better economic use by tilling them for agricultural/human use. Really? What about things like irrigation? Where is the water going to come from to grow the crops? One only has to look at the state of Wyoming, which looks a lot like parts of Namibia and other arid African countries, to realize that it's not economically feasible to till every square acre of that state, given soil quality and annual rainfall, right? So the author is dead wrong to imply that all land can be turned into arable land which will be profitable for agricultural use. As fairgame stated, "we hunters are utilising marginal communal lands that are not really desirable to suit other models."

You are also correct in stating that hunting not only benefits the local African economy, but also the global economy, and saves wildlife, and conserves land, and provides jobs for people. Most of the guys I know buy ALL of their guns and hunting gear here in the States BEFORE they even set foot in Africa, or Argentina, or Tajikistan, or where ever they hunt, and those products are manufactured all over the world. And there's no question that the airlines, booking agents, lodges, etc. make a lot of money off of us hunters, which also stimulates the economy. And it has been stated probably a THOUSAND times here on AR that once you take away the monetary value of game animals by banning hunting, as Kenya did, the animals simply disappear. There are only so many shutterbugs and eco-tourists in the world, and the ones who are into wildlife viewing usually want to go to a National Park or Nature Conservancy setting where there is a bonanza of game viewing oportunities to make it worth their money and effort.

Just look at a satellite photo of any African country, or of any state in the U.S., and the term "mixed-use" comes to mind. One will also soon discover that only a fraction of the land is being used for agricultural or human housing purposes. The rest of the land lays in a wild or semi-wild state, and that is the type of land where hunters do their hunting. So this will be my one and only post on this thread, as I find the quoted article so full of lame theories and misinformation that it was hardly worthy of comments by any of us in the first place.

Glen

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
With respect dismissing this research as lies is very easy to do. How about we have a proper discussion about it and you show me evidence to the contrary?
People find it very easy to accept 'evidence' that backs up their belief but when it comes to something which challenges that belief they choose to ignore it or make light or claim it is lies.
It's not long ago that i wouldn't have even consider that hunting could be a conservation tool but by putting my emotional response aside (as much as possible) and being rational i have learnt a lot.
Is it really too much to ask others to try and do the same?

OK, let us have a proper discussion.

How about you give us a list of the companies conducting photo safaris in Kenya, and a list of compnaies conducting hunting safaris in Tanzania, with how much each earns every season?

We can them compare apples with apples, rather tha hearsay.

I have been to both Kenya and Tanzania, and have seen a lot more animals in Tanzania than in Kenya.

What does tell you?

There is a LOT more poaching going on in Kenya than Tanzanmia.

Although I can see that the situation in Tanzania is also getting out of hand.

When hunting stops, the animals (or trophies, prey, whatever) no longer have a value. the government will no longer strive to insure to continue the species. they will no longer care.
Lions will become just another predator to be dealt with because of their inherent desire to hunt to survive. When the impala, zebra, wildebeest and so on are decimated, they will turn to cattle that have a value to the locals and when the cattle are gone, they will turn to humans.
when hunters place a value or a desire to pay to play, so to speak, the animals now are worth something to everyone concerned. The camps and the locals benefit from the protein they receive when I shoot a cape buffalo, Kudu, Eland, springbok, wildebeest or even an elephant. Problem animal control permits are issued, for example in Mozambique, when animals interfere with the local population. In 2010, I took an elephant, (PAC permit) for an elephant that was part of a group that was marauding into the local villagers corn fields. the amount of damage just one elephant can do in a very short period of time is amazing, besides the fact that they were eating the subsistance that the locals were counting on to survive. After the hunt, it took the locals a mere 5 1/2 hours to COMPLETELY dismantle the carcass of the approximately 6500 lb elephant for food. None of the meat and body parts go to waste there. They don't have the luxury of going to the grocery store for food. They depend on the concessions to supply them with the necessary protein to help them along. they consume everything. As to the economics of hunting. I am just one person. I don't know the percentage of the fees that I pay when I go to Africa to hunt that the government gets but on average, I spend between 20,000US and 40,000. Each trip. that's just little old me. I'm pretty sure that the government gets the trophy fees for each and every animal that I take. Plus the tip money that I leave with each and every single person that makes sure that I have a pleasant stay. The ladies that do my laundry, the housekeepers, the cooks, the trackers, the skinners, the PH's and the outfitter themselves all get something from me. In almost every camp that I have stayed in, in each of the countries that I hunt, they have a multitude (pardon me, I don't really know how many that is) of employees that are damned grateful for the tip money that they make. Their yearly gross has got to be many times over what they would make on a farm or a cattle ranch where they are just grateful for a shack to live in and enough to eat. I am not privy to the actual number of concessions in the countries that allow hunting in Africa but, on average, I end up tipping at least 7 to 10 camp staff wherever I stay. When the average monthly income of a worker in Zimbabwe is 125. to 150 US per month and they make, in tips, 15. a day in tips, Plus their wage, that greatly inhances the chance for improvement in their lifestyle.
I need to clarify that, at home in the US, I am a subsistance hunter. I would much rather harvest a bear, a doe or female deer or elk and personally don't care if the animal has horns that would look great on a wall or what. I hunt for meat. And when I hunt for horns or trophies, in Africa, it is my request that I have meat off of the animals that I take instead of domestic meat. I cannot export the meat per government regulations but note that none of it goes to waste. Without money, there is no conservation and the anti hunters don't, on average, buy hunting licenses. Hunters do. We are the ones that foot the bill for the preservation of the species we hunt. I am not trying to be antaganistic, everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions. That's just the way it is. Just my .02 worth.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
With respect dismissing this research as lies is very easy to do. How about we have a proper discussion about it and you show me evidence to the contrary?
People find it very easy to accept 'evidence' that backs up their belief but when it comes to something which challenges that belief they choose to ignore it or make light or claim it is lies.
It's not long ago that i wouldn't have even consider that hunting could be a conservation tool but by putting my emotional response aside (as much as possible) and being rational i have learnt a lot.
Is it really too much to ask others to try and do the same?

OK, let us have a proper discussion.

How about you give us a list of the companies conducting photo safaris in Kenya, and a list of compnaies conducting hunting safaris in Tanzania, with how much each earns every season?

We can them compare apples with apples, rather tha hearsay.

I have been to both Kenya and Tanzania, and have seen a lot more animals in Tanzania than in Kenya.

What does tell you?

There is a LOT more poaching going on in Kenya than Tanzania.

Although I can see that the situation in Tanzania is also getting out of hand.

Too true!

Kenya has lost vast tracts of land which were once largely inhabited by wildlife, to cattle overgrazing and haphazard subsistence farming which has resulted in mass deforestation and annihilation of wildlife.

The hunting ban signaled the beginning of the end for Kenya's free ranging wildlife populations - what little is left finds relative safety in the Parks.

Masailand and western Tanzania are indeed heading in the same direction; the overall damage is noticeable year after year!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

The hunting ban signaled the beginning of the end for Kenya's free ranging wildlife populations - what little is left finds relative safety in the Parks.
!

It is also worth noting that there still is good game numbers within the small popular areas of the most popular Kenyan National Parks BUT in not so popular areas of National Parks and and Game Reserves(often ex Hunting areas) there is little game BUT plenty of farming grazing and Poaching of what little is left. This does not include the Communal lands adjacent.

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
no ma'am, my bad.

It should be "lies, damn lies and statistics"

And as you say; either way same outcome.

Good day to you.

Or as Churchill put it so succinctly: "I believe only statistics that I have falsified myself!"
Cheers, Hans

How about the old one: Figures don't lie but liars figure.

In as much as considering the amount of monies generated by two uses of the land, one must also consider the carbon foot print or adverse negative inpact on the land by each. Ecotpourism leaves quite a large carbon foot print and damage to the environment as compared to safari hunting. Safari hunting's adverse impact on the environment is virtually NIL.

Jeff

Saeed and others, this thread might possibly be a sincere inquiry, but the data on which the anti-hunting position is based is so false that intelligent debate is impossible.

For example, hunting has been banned in Kenya since the 1970s (I happened to have heard why) and thus there can be no comparison between hunting and photo safaris there.

The other data is similar. There are no useful citations to valid sources, but just wild assertions. You cannot conduct a debate on that basis.

Norm

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
With respect dismissing this research as lies is very easy to do. How about we have a proper discussion about it and you show me evidence to the contrary?
People find it very easy to accept 'evidence' that backs up their belief but when it comes to something which challenges that belief they choose to ignore it or make light or claim it is lies.
It's not long ago that i wouldn't have even consider that hunting could be a conservation tool but by putting my emotional response aside (as much as possible) and being rational i have learnt a lot.
Is it really too much to ask others to try and do the same?

OK, let us have a proper discussion.

How about you give us a list of the companies conducting photo safaris in Kenya, and a list of compnaies conducting hunting safaris in Tanzania, with how much each earns every season?

We can them compare apples with apples, rather tha hearsay.

I have been to both Kenya and Tanzania, and have seen a lot more animals in Tanzania than in Kenya.

What does tell you?

There is a LOT more poaching going on in Kenya than Tanzanmia.

Although I can see that the situation in Tanzania is also getting out of hand.

quote:

Can you point out where I addressed you personally?

I didn't say you addressed me personally, i only said not to make assumptions like 'antis dont read the small print' because i am walking proof they do.

quote:

I know there is no hope of the creators of this unsubstantiated drivel answering any of their critics, so I am just pointing out a few of the obvious blunders in case others miss them.

Have you contacted the people who wrote this or are you just making another assumption?

quote:

I posted accurate game count figures for particular hunting/conservation areas, ridiculed Derrek Joubert and other lying antis publicly and challenged anyone to dispute the facts I had posted, and/or to a public debate.

Perhaps they didn't prove you otherwise but it's the same on both sides. I see noone here giving actual proof this article is wrong just people giving opinions it is wrong!

It's a problem that isn't going to go away, neither side will accept research from the other side and neither side are willing to work together and get some independent research done.

Me? I'm just trying to get both sides of the story and see where i fit in from there. A lot of people have been very helpful here and have helped me learn a lot i didn't know before coming here. But there are also those who have just behaved like children and do nothing for a hunters rep. Same on both sides, bad and good in all camps. But these attitudes don't help and someone will end up losing because of it all and i fear it will be the animals.

quote:

I think it boils down to that we do our bit outside the protected areas. Our contribution is the protection of pristine environments and the game not just the Government coffers.

Thank you Fairgame, i get what you are saying and have seen this worded in different ways in other threads. I do not dispute what you are saying only the claim i have also heard before that hunting contributes to a countries economy in a big way. Unfortunately i have yet to see anyone post research to back this up.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
someone will end up losing because of it all and i fear it will be the animals.

Quite right about that. And you can call me biased, but after spending plenty of time in both camps, there are a lot more level-headed hunters out there than antis. Generally speaking, here you will find guys who say antis talk bullshit, but I cannot even begin to go into the highly offensive verbal abuse that has been directed at me on anti groups. As soon as one brings up a valid pro hunting point which they have no answer for, they start going on about the size of one's genitalia etc, really childish crap from people who others may imagine have the answers to the world's wildlife issues. To me that abuse is like water off a duck's back because I know most of it comes from people with 0 experience outside of the city limits, but I fully understand why other hunters couldn't be bothered. Hunters are far more prepared to discuss/debate wildlife issues rationally than antis. Why? Because they know we have a valid argument and have many successful hunting areas worldwide to prove it. Let's start in the US, which has an incomparable conservation record over the last 100 years and the highest per capita percentage of hunters on earth. How sick I am of stating that, and yet nobody has ever been able to argue that point. Obviously.

I would like to know what one anti hunting group has done to address the Zimbabwean wildlife crises. All they do is cut and paste from hunting sites and squeal their outrage over anything with the letters h u n t in it, never mentioning the fact that it is hunters who have blown the whistle and that it is hunters who are trying to get on top of the situation.

quote:

Actually, echoing unfounded numbers repeated by unquestioning sources does not give the data credence.

The Jouberts frequently state there were 450,000 Lions on the African continent. How do they know?

That number though is repeated as if it's scientific gospel.

I never said it had credence, i put it out there in the hope other would be able to provide research to weigh it up against. So far though this hasn't been the case.
Honestly not one person here can say it isn't the truth and not one can say it absolutely is. Noone knows and everyone has an agenda including those whose research and those who read that research.

One thing I have been able to understand much better in recent times is the vast difference between the way anti hunters and non hunters think. The difference between fanatics and people with a little more grey matter. And what I have also come to realize is that there are many more non hunters than antis. The outlook is bleak, but there is hope, and I actually commend you for coming here Jolo.

JBrown,
Fantastic $499!!
but how am I getting there? Flights and transfers aren't listed. Oh and no Brit does a ten hour + flight for 7 days safari! So here it is:-
Accom $6986
flight $875.33
total $7861.33

Just a little over your $5000 guess and a little under my £6000 as it equates to £4957.28

Now can we stop digressing and get back to discussing the hunters contribution to the African economy?

David,
I have had some conversations with Jo,(PM's). I am impressed with her ability to; one, stay on topic, two not bring hyperballa into the discussion and most notabaly, she shows enough intelligence to question her own beliefs. I think that is the sign of true intelligence.

If we as sportsman had more people in the other camp like Jo, we could make progress.

Steve

Jolouburn came to this forum as a self proclaimed anti hunter. There have been numerous replies that show hunting does add to the African economy yet Jolouburn feels no one has given proper response to the question. It is clearly obvious that Jolouburn does not want to see the truth and very possibly came to stir up a little trouble. I think it would be best to leave this person alone and not bother with any further replies. As Jolouburn stated previously, it is easy to disregard the statistics you don't want to see. That appears to be exactly what Jolouburn is doing here. Have a pleasant day troll.

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

Now can we stop digressing and get back to discussing the hunters contribution to the African economy?

Yes, okay, let's do that then. Now this may not happen for a while, but I will do the best I can to provide figures for at least one Zimbabwean hunting area ASAP. I'd say the 15000 employed in African hunting is an irresponsible underguestimate, a thumbsuck. Regardless, even if it was accurate, when you amplify those 15000 by bringing their dependents into the equation....And people fortunate enough to have a job in Africa have long lists of dependents...I cannot imagine how many people are dependent on the Save conservancy but will do what I can to find out - workers and dependents. I will also figure out how much money is generated from hunting in that area. However much it may be, I know most of it gets pumped straight back into wildlife.

quote:

So all in all i guess i'm asking does hunting really contribute that much to the countries economy? Or is the only thing really benefiting the hunting oufitters etc pockets?

Jo,

Here's my take. Hunting may not be a big contributor economically for any particular country but it certainly does benefit all wildlife. Just the fact that so much acreage is devoted to huntable land provides wildlife habitat rather than goat and cattle pastures.

Many African countries could have more viable income from hunting but their governments are reltively unstable and difficult to conduct business with. I also have to expect the green tourism outfits also line their own pockets with money paid by tourists, right?

As an example, Zimbabwe pretty much slashed all of the privately owned land holdings where lots of wildlife flourished and hunting business flourished. I know many also provided for green tourism as well. Now these lands are poached of wildlife and forests and are now nothing more than deserts full of goats and cattle.

One thing I would point out while hunting is certainly not for everyone, it does support wildlife by placing a value on the land and animals. Rather than battle over which is better, green tourism or hunting, why not work together? I like to observe wildlife and tour just as much as a non-hunter.

Back to your original question:

quote:

So all in all i guess i'm asking does hunting really contribute that much to the countries economy? Or is the only thing really benefiting the hunting oufitters etc pockets?

It may be better to ask: Do goats and cattle benefit a countries economy better than (all) wildlife use?

You can't have both.

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Jolouburn came to this forum as a self proclaimed anti hunter. There have been numerous replies that show hunting does add to the African economy yet Jolouburn feels no one has given proper response to the question. It is clearly obvious that Jolouburn does not want to see the truth and very possibly came to stir up a little trouble. I think it would be best to leave this person alone and not bother with any further replies. As Jolouburn stated previously, it is easy to disregard the statistics you don't want to see. That appears to be exactly what Jolouburn is doing here. Have a pleasant day troll.

jfm

If that indeed is the general consensus here, I am happy to continue this conversation on my facebook Borderline walk page Jolo. Even if you did come here with no plan to change your mind ever, I will reach others by conversing with you there. It's not too difficult to get open minded people to see the good that properly managed hunting areas do, just time consuming. If it was a live public debate situation with impartial judges, it would be over fast. That is why you will never see Derrek Joubert take on someone like Clive Stockil for example, because he knows he'd be trashed in short time.

I'm going to start being brief for a while as i have intermittent internet connection and also cannot keep up with the amount of replies etc.

oddsix,

quote:

, because you are asking the hunting community to say that hunting is not valuable. Well that is like winning an argument with your wife. IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. Hunting bennifits the economy globally and saves wildlife and gives people jobs and yes it conserves. Just because you don't like it in the grand sceme of things really doesn't matter. I don't like photography and that doesn't matter. Stats are only as good as the guy making them up and usaully benifits the cause that they are linked to or they benifit the persons that are paying their bills.
enough said.

No i'm looking for research from your side of the fence that proves this info to be false.
Even the wife is wrong sometimes, remember this!
And if research is just flung around for an agenda please remember this fits both sides of the fence.

Leopardvalleysafaris,

I've covered the cost of safari already so not going over that again.
Please provide research to show the rest of your post or it is all just opinion again.
I'm not justifying anything, im questioning, there is a difference.

Saeed,

Again this only takes the subject off topic. I'm asking about how much hunting contributes to the economy not for justification of photo safari or hunting.
Noone yet has been able to provide any research which questions the research i have, this is what bothers me.

To those i haven't addressed so far or at all i either take on board what you are saying and will look further at it or it's not of relevance to what i asked the question for.

quote:

One thing I have been able to understand much better in recent times is the vast difference between the way anti hunters and non hunters think. The difference between fanatics and people with a little more grey matter. And what I have also come to realize is that there are many more non hunters than antis. The outlook is bleak, but there is hope, and I actually commend you for coming here Jolo.

One thing i have said all along whilst here albeit in a different thread is that i am here through no other reason than the wish to learn. I do not hide that from an emotional point of view i do not like hunting but that i accept a hunters right to hunt. From a rational point of view i can also see what hunting contributes to conservation and the local communities. Like i've said before i can put up a pretty good argument NOT to ban hunting with ease.
My only reason for posing this question was that i thought others here would have some alternative research for me to study and make my own mind up on regarding the contribution to the economy of hunting. Not conservation, not benefits to communities, just economics.

quote:

Jolouburn came to this forum as a self proclaimed anti hunter. There have been numerous replies that show hunting does add to the African economy yet Jolouburn feels no one has given proper response to the question. It is clearly obvious that Jolouburn does not want to see the truth and very possibly came to stir up a little trouble. I think it would be best to leave this person alone and not bother with any further replies. As Jolouburn stated previously, it is easy to disregard the statistics you don't want to see. That appears to be exactly what Jolouburn is doing here. Have a pleasant day troll.

Yes i came to this forum as an anti-hunter. HOWEVER over the course of many pages of discussion i have taken a lot on board and my opinions have changed immensely. I can only assume you did not read the thread and that therefore you missed my attitude change.
Please do not presume to speak for me, i have not once said that i feel noone has given proper response to my questions.
If i had come here to stir up trouble i would have already done it, i came here to learn and you can choose to believe that or not i don't really care.
You have absolutely no obligation to speak to me or take part in this discussion but im pretty sure the people of accurate reloading can decide for themselves whether they wish to talk with me or not.
Please see the other thread to see how many times i have disregarded statistics, believe me it is nowhere near the amount of time statistics i have provided have been disregarded but im not crying about it.
As for the last sentence - grow up!

Here are statistics for 2009 in RSA, 6292 foreign hunting cleients generating US$ 77396395 / RSA R 650129718 this totals are just for species fees and daily rates.
Traveling and extended holiday not included, sou figeres goes up! Source PHASA

Maybe this is what your looking for?

This is just ONE province of just South Africa;



Institute for Tourism, Wildlife Economics & Leisure Studies, North-West University, Potchefstroom, South Africa

2 School of Economics, North-West University, Potchefstroom, South Africa


* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: melville.saayman@nwu.ac.za

Corresponding Editor: J.N. Blignaut


We here estimate the economic impact of hunting (both biltong and trophy) on South Africa's Northern Cape province economy. This study used the input-output (social accounting matrix) and multiplier analyses to evaluate the economic impact of hunting in the regional economy of the Northern Cape province. Data on biltong hunting were derived from a national survey conducted in 2007 and data on trophy hunting were derived from the Professional Hunting Association of South Africa (PHASA). The results indicated that the direct economic impact of hunting in the Northern Cape province economy, resulting from increased expenditure, exceeded R696.1 million for 2007. This direct impact resulted in a total economic impact in the order of R774.3 million, and consequently, in a multiplier effect of 1.11. With regard to employment, it was estimated that some 9072 jobs plus those of the employees directly involved might be dependent on hunting in the province, thereby supporting the notion that this is a viable and important sector of the tourism industry.
Received: May 28, 2009; Accepted: April 30, 2010

from;
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/...115?journalCode=sawr

South Africa

South Africa has the largest share of trophy hunting in Africa and is responsible for nearly 85% of all trophy exports (Falkena 2003)

U.S. $100 million was generated by foreign trophy hunters in South Africa in 2000 (Anderson 2003) with estimates surging to nearly $137 million per year if multiplier effects and secondary industries are considered (Damm 2004a)

Believed that the nearly 70,000 individuals are employed by trophy hunting and its related industries (PHASA 2004) with nearly 6,000 being directly involved (Chardonnet 2002 and Patterson & Khosa 2005)

The recovery of White Rhino from 30 to nearly 11,000 in South Africa has been directly attributed to the incentives resulting from trophy hunting (Leader-Williams et al 200?)


Just from SA....

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

I think it boils down to that we do our bit outside the protected areas. Our contribution is the protection of pristine environments and the game not just the Government coffers.

Thank you Fairgame, i get what you are saying and have seen this worded in different ways in other threads. I do not dispute what you are saying only the claim i have also heard before that hunting contributes to a countries economy in a big way. Unfortunately i have yet to see anyone post research to back this up.

Even if hunting did not "contributes to a countries economy in a big way", which it does, are you more concerned about the country's finances or the conservation of land and species which hunting has undisputedly supported?

Thank you for all the research and pending research, ill look at it all closer over the next few days.

Joloburn

In Africa money talks
If the government could make more out of photo tourists they would.
If you anti hunters want to make your point then go into a country with all of your ill gotten gains and make your point.
Go forth and conquer the evil of hunting with your photographic Utopia.
If you succeed you surely will have no problem converting every other African government with the long term gains that only photographic tourism can offer. Not to mention the massive amounts of support you will have from the conservation community due to the fact that your vision will surely be conserving more land with more money generated which should empower the people, stop poaching and improve the GDP of the country by a substantial margin.

Its time for you guys to put your money where your mouth is and show us how its done. We are doing it, our conservation model is securing rangeland against threats and preserving wildlife as it has done for 200 years. What have your effots accomplished. How much wilderness is safe because of you?

If your vision is all you profess it to be you should not have to take over land by proving the evils of hunting , but rather by growing your own portion through good business.
After all, the only way you are going to grow the GDP is by making the pie bigger, not eating the piece that was give to someone else.

I noticed you said many time that the land could earn more through other forms of utilization. That lends itself to exploitation of our natural resources purely based on financial gain rather than conservation aims and biodiversity protection.
I think most would agree with me that your motivations then are not conservation based. If this is the case, why are you here proclaiming the ills of our conservation model when clearly you have no conservation ethic at heart.

I think you have been misplaced, you should be working in business, possibly mining or mass industry if you purely want more money. These types of industry have no conservation ethic and are all about money, you should be right at home.

I do sincerely wish you the best of luck if you decide to pursue the ideals of real conservation as I know that were you to spend a single month in Africa on the ground doing actual conservation work, you would be back here the day you landed apologizing and touting the good that hunting is doing to protect wilderness.
I hope to hear from you soon
Kind regards
HQ

quote:

Even if hunting did not "contributes to a countries economy in a big way", which it does, are you more concerned about the country's finances or the conservation of land and species which hunting has undisputedly supported?

Honestly i'm concerned about both. I'm concerned about the whole bigger picture too. Corrupt governments, poor communities, poverty, treatment of blacks by some white africans etc etc etc.

When it comes to the animals however which is what we are discussing, of course even a little revenue provided by hunting is better than loss of animals, jobs, economy, land because something less beneficial replaces hunting. I don't dispute this in any way but you also can't berate me for questioning and wanting was IS best for those animals, the land, the people, no matter what that may be.

There are certain things claimed to be of benefit to Africa that hunting provides that i don't agree with or have problems with but i'm pretty certain they would be things that concern you all too.

For example i have a problem with animals which are under age according to the rules beng shot and people saying oops its an accident, its difficult to tell or my PH said shoot.

I have difficulty with the concept of donating the meat from kills to local communities. One locals don't eat lion meat, they have superstitions about it and two much more importantly if you give a man a fish he will eat once, give a man a fishing net and he will eat every day. Not the hunters problem i know but still donating meat doesn't solve the bigger problems and isnt the saviour its claimed to be.

On the other hand i read a thread here recently about a guy who hunts wolves (and ill be damned if i can find it now) and some antis had written a vicious piece about him and his job, he was a judge apparently. I didn't like the way the piece had been written or what it implied.

I'm probably not the troll, rabid anti, whatever you want to call me that some of you think i am. I'm here for one reason and one reason only to make an INFORMED decision on how i feel about hunting and conservation.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
[QUOTE]

Honestly i'm concerned about both. I'm concerned about the whole bigger picture too. Corrupt governments, poor communities, poverty, treatment of blacks by some white africans etc etc etc.

You seem to be a bit behind the times. Shouldn't you be more concerned about the treatment of white Africans by some blacks in this day and age? Or maybe you should be more concerned about the treatment of black Africans by some black Africans....

quote:

If you anti hunters want to make your point then go into a country with all of your ill gotten gains and make your point.

Which ill gotten gains would those be?

quote:

Its time for you guys to put your money where your mouth is and show us how its done. We are doing it, our conservation model is securing rangeland against threats and preserving wildlife as it has done for 200 years. What have your effots accomplished. How much wilderness is safe because of you?

If you think for one minute that hunters are the only people who put money into the African economy and conservation you are sorely mistaken. How much wilderness is safe specifically because of me? Very little to none i would suspect but at least i am trying to do my part and to do my part i need to know where i stand. Hence my coming here.

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If your vision is all you profess it to be

Please go on tell me what it is you THINK MY vision is?

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I noticed you said many time that the land could earn more through other forms of utilization.

Please show me where i said that.

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I think most would agree with me that your motivations then are not conservation based. If this is the case, why are you here proclaiming the ills of our conservation model when clearly you have no conservation ethic at heart.

yes those who are narrow minded and jump to conclusions would see that. Luckily i have come across many here though that are not stereo typical, judgemental and do not assume.

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I think you have been misplaced, you should be working in business, possibly mining or mass industry if you purely want more money. These types of industry have no conservation ethic and are all about money, you should be right at home.

Have a look at the other thread i started and you will see you are way off base. We are all in business in some manner or other and to be fair there is greed all over the place. Do not try and tell me there are no greedy hunting outfitters there. And trust me im not in my job for the money, i run a pub which breaks round about even due to taxing, smoking bans and all other manner of crap the government puts in our way. Im also a writer and believe me that aint bringing the big bucks in.

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I do sincerely wish you the best of luck if you decide to pursue the ideals of real conservation as I know that were you to spend a single month in Africa on the ground doing actual conservation work, you would be back here the day you landed apologizing and touting the good that hunting is doing to protect wilderness.

I would love to spend more time in Africa and see whats really going on but honestly my 'ill gotten gains' dont allow for it. And i agree the only real way to see what is ging on is to be there and spend time there observing.
Truthfully i don't have to go to Africa to understand there are benefits to hunting all round but i wont just say hunting is great, ill weigh it up against all other research and sides of the argument.

David,

Perhaps you are right, i can only go on what i witnessed and what i hear. Perhaps i should rephrase that and say i am worried about how some Africans treat their fellow Africans.

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Originally posted by jolouburn:
more importantly if you give a man a fish he will eat once, give a man a fishing net and he will eat every day.

First of all I have not berated you. I have disagreed with your numbers posted and no I am not going to research sources to prove how ludicrous the numbers are.

Secondly, my boots on the ground limited experience in Africa tell me if you give a man a fishing net in Africa the stream will have NO fish in a few years.

Frostbit,

It was a generic 'you' not aimed at you personally. Sorry i didn't make that clear.

With respect if you will not back up your claims then for me they are nothing more than opinion. Thats just the way it is for me and no offence is meant.

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Secondly, my boots on the ground limited experience in Africa tell me if you give a man a fishing net in Africa the stream will have NO fish in a few years.

Really and why's that?
I would hazard a guess local communities in Africa would rather be independent and have the means to support themselves than rely on the charity of hunters. In my opinion they have the right to do that and should be given the opportunity to do that. Oh but hang on a minute that would take away one of the reasons hunting contributes to Africa wouldn't it? Cynical? Yes, very much so just as you (generic) in the main are of me.

Jolouburn, The only way you will ever truly understand hunting in Africa and it's dynamics is to get out of the bar, go deep into the African bush, meet the locals, hunt the animals, pay the trophy fee's. Your choice whether you pull the trigger or not! Do it now, before you wear out your keyboard Regards.

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Originally posted by jolouburn:


Really and why's that?
I would hazard a guess local communities in Africa would rather be independent and have the means to support themselves than rely on the charity of hunters. In my opinion they have the right to do that and should be given the opportunity to do that. Oh but hang on a minute that would take away one of the reasons hunting contributes to Africa wouldn't it? Cynical? Yes, very much so just as you (generic) in the main are of me.

Bad guess. Anyway, we hunters do not provide charity, we forge partnerships with locals and local communities. Mr Fairgame could tell you more about that I think, if he has the time. I would not like to see the reaction of the locals in Zim if all wildlife areas were handed over to antis tomorrow. Make no mistake, here the locals are firmly on our side. I hope you don't ask me to conduct a study to prove this. Come and visit and ask them yourself. Can't pay for your ticket but I will feed you. Rather, the locals will feed both of us, on elephant nyama.

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Originally posted by jolouburn:
Frostbit,

I would hazard a guess local communities in Africa would rather be independent and have the means to support themselves than rely on the charity of hunters.

"charity"? It's a business relationship. "You don't poach (kill anything regardless of gender or age) and we will pass the meat along.

Jo,

I lived in bush Alaska. There's an interesting attempt to balance "self-determination" with "traditional values" among the Native people there.

One thing I certainly learn in travel to the villages is the concept of time.

When you take a medical history and ask how long have you had this problem the answer is always either "long time" or "sometimes I always have a headache".

My point is traditionally there is no feeling for future investment other than making it to the next season. Put up enough Salmon to make it through the winter. Pick enough berries to make it as long as possible. Kill enough Caribou or Moose to feed the extended family. The idea of only killing male Moose or caribou was foreign. The idea of preserving for future generations is foreign. Things tend to be better with AK Fish & Ganme setting regs based on sustained yeild. Before that, good luck finding any game within 50 miles of a village.

The same exists in Africa. The locals aren't worried about "a better life for my grandchildren" they are worried about making it another season.

Bottomline, hunting helps the local game and the local people. How can you oppose (other than emotionally) a win-win situation?

David,

Thank you very much for the offer, i hope to make it again to Africa eventually. Our long time goal is to set up somewhere there one day near a national park providing accomodation and also doing some conservation work. What exactly is undecided and its a long way off financially.
I'm not going to ask you for proof i doubt there is research out there that would give the info you have stated. :-)

Frostbit,

But does that 'business relationship' actually work? I see lots of reports of poaching, poisoning etc by locals.

I take your point on 'future investment' but perhaps that is potentially something that should be worked on and the local people educated on?

2kuduhunter,

Perhaps one day when i come back to Africa i will visit a hunting lodge for a day or too and see what actually is the crack.
Until then i can only attempt to learn by discussing these things with those in the know.