quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
Why are there so many posts talking about a GUIDE?

Well you know what AR is like, one dog barks and the rest of the pack dogs automatically bark with him.... ....

Not related to this story, except for the mentality of the modern 'City-iot' young person.

Today at work I met a young lady; 19 years old.

I started telling her how we'd seen a nice chocolate coloured black bear, on the drive home from work.

"Oh I hate bears!" she said.

So we got into this conversation and I asked her where she was from; Edmonton, Alberta. It's a relatively small city, only about 1,000,000 people.
Whitecourt, where I reside is 10,000 population. So I asked her what she thought of Whitecourt.

"All there is are trees! There's no buildings!"

So we went on talking and this girl was only comfortable in the city, in buildings, ZERO animals... "I hate animals"... zero insects... "I hate insects!"

We were at our plant site, which is in remote bush, and she looked out across the vast forest, and said, "Where's all the houses?"



As to the lady being killed. It's too bad. I blame the tour operator more than the woman actually.

Apparently she went there to protect wildlife!

Another example of how stupid city dwellers are!

Well how about this....

IF you have your windows up as required, the Lioness will instead just open your Door ....

Her death is truly tragic, but it looks like she knew what she was doing.

Trax and vvreddy: Look at the news article posted by Saeed. She was indeed with a guide.

You mean like a general local 'don't give a crap' Tour guide for hire, who takes tourists to anywhere of interest around Joburg.

Unlikely a guide-employee from the actual Lion park would tolerate the windows being open.

I think the lack of respect comes from the fact that we as hunters cannot believe why anyone would go to a staged zoo such as this while actually in Africa. Obviously there was a lack of understanding that Lions can be dangerous. Rules and common sense were not heeded and tragedy struck. This post is pretty spot on but unfortunately this is as wild as it gets for most city dwellers

quote:

Originally posted by Expat:
The "park" is more a zoo. It is filled with hand reared lions which are placed in various camps.they get fed rotten chicken and restaurant scraps. Nothing "wild" about it. It is only a few miles from the city of Johannesburg and right next to a squatter camp. No weapons are allowed in there and the guide was probably only a "tourism guide" or rather a driver showing tourists the sights and sounds of the CITY. There was a video on YouTube not too long ago where a lion in the same "park" opened the door of the vehicle with her mouth. A whilst ago some Japanese tourist also got mauled when he got out to take pictures. The "zoo" should be an embarrassment to the people of Johannesburg. But the owners make insane amounts of money from foreign tourists thinking they are experiencing "Africa". So the gates will stay open

A few years ago, we were in South Africa and went to visit one of those lion breading places.

The day before, we were told an American woman was mauled by a lioness.

The guide specifically kept telling her not to get out of the truck, but she insisted on doing it, and she got exactly what she deserved.

That old saying comes to mind "when the brain is dead, the body suffers".

People take risks in all kinds of situations,
YEs, they may be knowingly (or unknowingly) be exposing themselves to mishap,
( "asking for-inviting it"?)....but that does not mean they deserve it,
cause its all really just a game of chance.

People Sky-dive as a hobby, i.e.; Jumping out of perfectly good aircraft with a parachute,
Do the ones that sometimes die, deserve it?...really?

IF you tracked elephants for a living, do you deserve it IF you show poor judgement &
an elephant gets the better and stomps one to death?

One may just one day pay the ultimate price with ones life for getting it seriously wrong.
The only difference is that more sensible disciplined types & the Pros, are less likely to
get it wrong than the more openly careless-reckless,(or simply naive) types.

ITs Simple::

1./Takes risks as required or as you see fit,
and
2./then be fully prepared take the responsibility and blame for any resulting consequences of your actions
should you get it wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Milo and Juan: I must respectfully disagree with you both. The FIRST mistake was made when both the Guide and the client consciously chose to not follow the regulations by having all windows rolled up. (This in spite of big signs, and each receiving a personal written handout.) The SECOND mistake was made when the Guide did not enforce the windows up regulation. The THIRD mistake was made when the Guide failed to carry a firearm. Sorry that it happened, but their lack of respect for the regulations and their own agency caused the tragic outcome.

I was referring to guides in general, as, I believe, was Juan. I was not referring to zoos and enclosures in which I have no interest whatsoever. I can see how that might not have been clear in the flow of the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Death is tragic, regardless of the circumstances. I feel bad for her, and her family.

Well said Aaron. +1

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Riding in a tourist vehicle with the windows rolled down. Just asking for it! Like the tourists I have seen at Kruger who get out of their cars or do the same thing with their windows down despite the regulations. And then they or their estates want to do the American thing and sue!

In Kruger National Park, in fact in all South African national parks, one is allowed to keep the windows open. You can even travel in an open safari vehicle.

I guess that lioness was provoked somehow.


www.kapstadt.de/schindlers-africa

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Apparently she went there to protect wildlife!

Another example of how stupid city dwellers are!

Yup. Pretty shocking. Her ignorance cost her her life. Sad, very sad indeed. Her parents must really be suffering .

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Apparently she went there to protect wildlife!

Another example of how stupid city dwellers are!

Yup. Pretty shocking. Her ignorance cost her her life. Sad, very sad indeed. Her parents must really be suffering .

Yep, my point earlier too! The original situation was in deed foolish, but I hate to see a woman pay with her life for being foolish!

To clarify as some have, there was NOT a guide in this situation - but obviously there should be! Perhaps the attack may not have happened, had an experienced/responsible person be in charge?

Aaron,

Agree with you, it was foolish, but tragic.

I just saw on the news the driver of the car was called a guide. They stated he suffered a heart attack when the attack occurred. It seems as though he did not work for the park and was probably more of a hired driver than what we would consider a guide.

The American woman attacked and killed by a lion in a South African park has been identified by multiple sources as Katherine Chappell.

Chappell, whose identity was confirmed by her sister, was in her 20s, according to the sources.

The sister said the family is devastated, but declined further comment.

Chappell was attacked as she rode through the park Monday in a car driven by a tour operator, Scott Simpson, assistant manager at The Lion Park, told ABC News.

The tour operator driving the car was injured in the attack and remains hospitalized.

Witnesses quoted in South African media said the car's windows were open, contrary to park rules.

The Lion Park, near Johannesburg, South Africa, was "operating as usual" a day after the attack, Simpson said. However, the lioness was locked away in an enclosure and could be moved to a private location in the next day or two, Simpson added.

ABC News has learned the lioness had been mating and had cubs with her. That could help explain the attack.

The park is a popular tourist destination that allows visitors to drive in their own cars through large enclosures where lions roam freely.

ABC News' Sifiso Khanyile in South Africa, Hamish MacDonald, Liezl Thom and Jim Vojtech contributed to this report.

A good gun and being in condition orange it enough.
But of course you have to read Col Jeff Cooper books first .I train a carry a gun and i can say that the driver or guide or PH must have a gun .
I would open the windows ill not be in the field witha close window ,what a stupid solution .I GO TO THE FIELD TO ENJOY THE NATURE NOT TO WACHT TV.

This is South Africa........ keep your windows closed and your doors locked, all the time ! At the Traffic Lights too.

true just had a big article in the news here in the states about SA being a "ticking time bomb". Did not sound good on any level, animal or human

There are a bunch of sanctimonious old coots posting here. If one of your kids died every time they did something more dangerous or foolhardy than opening a window in a 20 acre zoo then your family would be pretty small and sad.

99 out of 100 people would say "He was asking for it" if one of us were killed hunting dangerous game. Only 1 out of 100 people would say "She got her comeuppance" for opening a car window...and it seems all of that small group post here.

I can quickly think of 50 or so things I've done that were seriously more stupid than opening a window in a game park. I did three of them before lunch today.

I blame this on Disney and the viral video of the guy getting hugged by a group of lionesses. People want to believe that somehow lions won't be lions. And the haters hate us because we treat dangerous animals as dangerous animals. crazy.

Once again, it's a real tragedy for her and her family, no doubt, but you have to grasp the undisputed fact that she consciously chose to not follow the rules. You, she or anyone else may die by choices that are made. Some of us have been lucky in dangerous situations, but that does not excuse foolish behavior that could lead to death. When it leads to death it becomes an even greater tragedy when it was due to the poor choice of the deceased.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
There are a bunch of sanctimonious old coots posting here. If one of your kids died every time they did something more dangerous or foolhardy than opening a window in a 20 acre zoo then your family would be pretty small and sad.

99 out of 100 people would say "He was asking for it" if one of us were killed hunting dangerous game. Only 1 out of 100 people would say "She got her comeuppance" for opening a car window...and it seems all of that small group post here.

I can quickly think of 50 or so things I've done that were seriously more stupid than opening a window in a game park. I did three of them before lunch today.

+1

A young girl died and a family is in mourning. Some of the comments here are pretty heartless.

There an outpouring of grief and condolences when a professional hunter or client get killed or injured by a wild animal. Most often ph/clients have injured and are trying kill an animal.

Why should we hunters get sympathies and non hunters who carelessly did not roll up a window get mocked.

From the outside (non hunter perspective not mine) - getting killed or injured when intentionally trying to kill wild animals seems far more deserved than a young women not rolling up the window.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:
Aaron,

Agree with you, it was foolish, but tragic.

I just saw on the news the driver of the car was called a guide. They stated he suffered a heart attack when the attack occurred. It seems as though he did not work for the park and was probably more of a hired driver than what we would consider a guide.

A part-time guide then?

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:
Not related to this story, except for the mentality of the modern 'City-iot' young person.

Today at work I met a young lady; 19 years old.

I started telling her how we'd seen a nice chocolate coloured black bear, on the drive home from work.

"Oh I hate bears!" she said.

So we got into this conversation and I asked her where she was from; Edmonton, Alberta. It's a relatively small city, only about 1,000,000 people.
Whitecourt, where I reside is 10,000 population. So I asked her what she thought of Whitecourt.

"All there is are trees! There's no buildings!"

So we went on talking and this girl was only comfortable in the city, in buildings, ZERO animals... "I hate animals"... zero insects... "I hate insects!"

We were at our plant site, which is in remote bush, and she looked out across the vast forest, and said, "Where's all the houses?"



As to the lady being killed. It's too bad. I blame the tour operator more than the woman actually.

Nice to read someone from Whitecourt. I will drive through Whitecourt in about 10 days on my way back to AK. Nice area.
Cal

Soooo....
Did everyone see today that the woman was from Hollywood and over there on a big Lefty animal rights, Anti-Poaching deal?
The Irony is amazing in these type of folks...
She worked on the HBO Game of a Thrones series apparantly.
Sadly, you can imagine these Animal Rights,completely uninformed soft headed people saying "here kitty kitty"...."nice kitty!!"
Clueless and Stupid...unfortunately to the point of Death.

quote:

Poyntman:
Clueless and Stupid...unfortunately to the point of Death

Is the lady staying in the car with windows down any more 'stupid' that this kind of thing:

IF that elephant expert and guests got stomped,
would there be outpouring of sympathy ,or, castigation-criticism from AR?

When the late PH-Ian Gibson continued on a bull after being told by his tracker that the bull they were tailing was in musth,
did Mr.Gibson then knowingly "go looking for trouble - get what he was asking for"..?

All I read were condolences and sympathy on AR following that incident.

Sad. Humanist egotarians think that if their intentions are pure somehow animals will pick up on that and do the fair thing. This is the what I think people refer to as the "Disney Syndrome". Fault? The individual and then the guide.

We all now and again do stupid things in the bush and once in a while we get caught out. Winding down a window to get a better photograph is hardly irresponsible and this is simply a tragic and isolated incident.

Trax - Bet that guide could whip around his double and put two through the brain before you could pronounce the word.

let me be clear,
I just put forward the question about 'stupid' cause others have made that accusation on this thread.

I see i t ALL as simply the person deciding,[ PH or tourist] what,
chances they wish to take (i.e.: "games they wish to play")... with wild unpredictable animals.

I don't much care how others decide to gamble their life, however....
Informed individuals can decide for themselves how much they want the dice weighted in favour of the animal.
whereas, uninformed/misinformed/naive individuals may not know how close to the precipice they really are.

quote:

Trax - Bet that guide could whip around his double and put two through the brain before you could pronounce the word.

FG,

YEh well I gather experienced Mr.Gibson also thought he could effectively deal-cope with an irate ele in musth.
He decided he wanted to gamble on those terms, and lost. ...I see NO Right or Wrong, just an end result.

IF someone else then wants to wave their SxS like a fairys wand 7 paces from a clearly unhappy ele, so be it...

I value freewill so I don't tell people what to do, but I also don't send prayers or condolences.

The deceased girl and Gibson are both now nothing more than a cold statistic regarding the perils of life.

http://m.news24.com/news24/Sou...im-report-20150604-2

There seems to be confusion over the "guide" the one article states he was the assistant manager of the park, bit the above states different.

quote:

Originally posted by Expat:
http://m.news24.com/news24/Sou...im-report-20150604-2

There seems to be confusion over the "guide" the one article states he was the assistant manager of the park, bit the above states different.

I also read it to say the guide was the manager, but it's badly stated and they mean the manager said there was a guide.

And I've been to that lion park - it is as you say - a bit of a drive-through zoo, where the animals have no fear of the patrons.

Back in SA I went with my aunt and her 4 kids for a birthday treat for the eldest. It wasn't uncommon for a woman to take her kids for a look.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Poyntman:
Clueless and Stupid...unfortunately to the point of Death

Is the lady staying in the car with windows down any more 'stupid' that this kind of thing:

IF that elephant expert and guests got stomped,
would there be outpouring of sympathy ,or, castigation-criticism from AR?

When the late PH-Ian Gibson continued on a bull after being told by his tracker that the bull they were tailing was in musth,
did Mr.Gibson then knowingly "go looking for trouble - get what he was asking for"..?

All I read were condolences and sympathy on AR following that incident.

I know this off topic, but why don't those who piss and moan about Mark Sullivan kicking up sand at a hippo don't spout off on a photo such as this?
Just wondering.
Cal

Well ,bad things happens ,and i prefer to be with my windows open in the field .If you want to see the wild game from a total safe position watch TV.Several mountain bikers were attacked by pumas and you will not ride again... .My condolences to the family the girl was just living .The pseudoguides must carry guns and must be trained .

quote:

I know this off topic, but why don't those who piss and moan about Mark Sullivan kicking up sand at a hippo don't spout off on a photo such as this?Just wondering.Cal

Most excellent question, sir...

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
[
I know this off topic, but why don't those who piss and moan about Mark Sullivan kicking up sand at a hippo don't spout off on a photo such as this?
Just wondering.
Cal

A question you and I have asked on this forum previously. But no intelligent answer from the peanut gallery because that would get in the way of the "mob mentality" and it's merry leader!

Shocking, regardless of the situation and faults, to be so flippant about this young woman's death.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Some cold hearts here. When a hunter or PH is killed when hunting lions or elephants or buffalo there is an outpouring of sympathy and sometimes even cash. When it's a non-hunter why the outpouring of venom? She didn't go out looking for trouble...it sounds like trouble just found her.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Shocking, regardless of the situation and faults, to be so flippant about this young woman's death.