Seriously, what constitutes a 'stunt',...its all subjective to ones personal opinion, correct?

If you take game at longer ranges, you can be accused of stunt shooting
[Saeed, you're long range (450yd?) shot would be a 'stunt' in some peoples minds]

If you take game with a certain TYPE[or certain calibre] of weapon, thats not in approval with other people,
one can be accused of stunt shooting, no matter how successful the spear,bow or rifle hunt, actually was.

- Was Fred Bear stunt shooting when he filmed his own Grizzly bow hunt? [you know he switched from guns to bows at age 29]

- Was Gail Selby as a young teenage girl, stunt shooting when she was guided by her PH father Harry,
to successfully take a Bull Ele with a single 7x57 solid?
Sure, she was backed-up by her skilled PH father with a larger bore,[which he was not required to use]
but there have been a whole plentitude of clients going to Africa carrying anything from 9,3 - .375, .416, .458. .470,
that are backed-up by PHs with even larger bores,..with the assistance of the PHs rifle sometimes desperately required!

If one is talking about humane killing , well we have all seen animals run off and be tracked for many hours after being hit by
OOO's of grains of large rifle bullets,...OOO's of feet in velocity,...and many thousands of Ft/lbs of energy.
And we have seen large African game properly hit with a BROADHEAD with a mere 100 ft/lb of energy at a mere 200fps or less
and be brought to ground in fairly quick time.

- IMO, If someone is consistently proficient with their particular weapon of choice, I don't consider it a stunt.
I don't see any difference in a client hunting with an edged weapon (vs) say .375 cal, when either of them
are likely to be backed by PH with anything from .458 to .600nitro-....& either hunter could well require the PH to assist.

Snuffing ones shot with medium or large bore, can put one in exactly the same position as the person snuffing his shot
with spear or arrow. There is no difference between the two, IF either of them can't close the deal without PH-'Uber bore',
assistance.

The amount of footage I have seen of rifle hunters who cannot shoot for shit their DG bolt rifle or largebore SxS rifle,
where the PH has to urge and direct the client on, like he is dealing with a 'special needs' child,
or where the PH has to urgently remind the client to quickly reload their SxS, because, after firing the first two barrels
the client just stands there staring at the approaching DG,..holding a rifle void of live rounds.

Seriously, its enough to make a proficient spear user on a successful spear hunt, such a pleasure to view.


...all other opinions welcome,

it's a "stunt" if the pissaant complaining about it and calling it a stunt is incapable of doing it himself, and so therefore no one else is capable of doing it.

agreed, plus 1!

Generally the naysayers are people without the income to replicate the "stunt".

It is a stunt if you stand on your head while you pull the trigger with your little toe!

It is a stunt if you are facing away from the animal & using a mirror to align your sights as you shoot.

It is a stunt if you catch a black mamba with your hands, extract the venom in a syringe and use a blow gun to shoot a buffalo at 10 meters.

It is an even better stunt when the buffalo charges you and you run up the nearest tree and come face to face with the mamba's grieving widow!

In other words they are all stunts when it is not a conventional or commonly agreed way of doing something.

It stops being a stunt as more and more people start using that method and SCI includes it in its records!

Trax,

For those bow hunters or spear hunters, etc....ask yourself this question and be honest in your answer...

You're in Africa with your family with kids (you love them), you need food to eat to survive, otherwise you're going to starve, and you have a choice of taking hunting a .375 H&H magnum or a spear or a bow & arrow to hunt with... and let's stipulate there are many buffalo in the area but there are also lions, leopards, hyenas, and even elephants that you might encounter on the hunt.

What do you choose...

Well Trax you might take the spear or bow, but I'll take the .375 H&H...no time for stunts...this is serious and it is about survival.

But, this is not the case in modern Africa...you can do stunts.

AIU

quote:

Originally posted by DTala:
it's a "stunt" if the pissaant complaining about it and calling it a stunt is incapable of doing it himself, and so therefore no one else is capable of doing it.

Pay that!

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
It stops being a stunt as more and more people start using that method and SCI includes it in its records!

you know that a hopeless shot client can punch two holes in an elephants ear with his .600 nitro,
then have the PH deal with charging beast, and the paying client still goes into the SCI record books.
because theres a principle that says,the person who merely drew 'first blood', can claim the prize.

Yet if one successfully hunts DG with spear- not requiring PH to finish it for you, one is accused of performing a stunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Trax,

For those bow hunters or spear hunters, etc....ask yourself this question and be honest in your answer...

You're in Africa with your family with kids (you love them), you need food to eat to survive, otherwise you're going to starve, and you have a choice of taking hunting a .375 H&H magnum or a spear or a bow & arrow to hunt with... and let's stipulate there are many buffalo in the area but there are also lions, leopards, hyenas, and even elephants that you might encounter on the hunt.

What do you choose...

Well Trax you might take the spear or bow, but I'll take the .375 H&H...no time for stunts...this is serious and it is about survival.

But, this is not the case in modern Africa...you can do stunts.

AIU

AIU,

Do you ever wonder how Bell and some of those professionals before him[who also regularly used smaller medium bores on DG]... survived?

Bell had to do all the ivory shooting ,all the camp meat shooting,.. and all the protective shooting of any DG threatening his 150 staff,
with his humble 6.5mm and 7mm.....Some 1000 ele,700 Buff,numerous lions,Rhinos and species of plains game....and no-one backing him Up!
He also used to hunt Lion with a .303 in Uganda, when working for the British rail construction, helping to protect the line workers.
The secret was adequate cartridge/bullet and high level of personal skill/nerve/proficiency.

I accept that not too many people have it to such a high level, But going larger & larger in cal can only limitedly compensate for ones personal lack.
A poor lousy shot with a large bore is just that, a poor lousy shot! A largebore won't help such a person, infact, it can be a detriment,
and that is something highly seasoned and respected PHs can confirm.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

Well Trax you might take the spear or bow, but I'll take the .375 H&H...no time for stunts...this is serious and it is about survival.

Personally, I would not hunt with a spear, cause I don't believe I have what it takes, but power to those who do.
It would also be foolish and ignorant of people not to acknowledge that a rifle would be a better choice for many people.

But even your serious choice of .375HH would be be considered by some to be a marginal calibre for what you hypothetically proposed.
and that is despite the fact that the .375cal earned its great reputation by the mountain of accolades given to it from many seasoned PHs,
who used it extensively [and saw it used extensively] for many decades and over many thousands of rounds being fired on all manner of game.
And with todays great bullets, it could only be a more consistent performer, than it ever was in the past.

Strictly speaking,
Id rather have Bell and his 7x57, Saeed and his .375 and just about any good PH with a .375 backing me up,
than a bunch of blowhards with bigbores, who in the heat of the moment cannot shoot for shit or be relied apon, to save their life or anyone else's.
If anything, its the over-rated relatively unskilled people with rifles chambered in cartridges they cannot handle, that manage to get a hunting party
into hairy situations.

I like all sorts of hunting. People use 'primitive' weapons for lots of different reasons, mostly because they enjoy it and it is an extra challenge.... but using such weapons on dangerous game really is a stunt IMO and I dont think that is being disrespectful to the hunter - that is just the honest truth. There is no need to use those weapons when there are far more appropriate means - they (me included) choose and use them simply for their own pleasure and satisfaction ..

No big deal...

Trax, that is a very well written piece there, and I pretty much agree with everything you said. I have hunted with many clients ( I am a professional "entertainer" at work, not a PH), and most couldn't hit a plate at 100 yards, most couldn't even estimate 100 yards, much less longer ranges. Best customer money I ever spent was taking LOADS of these guys to SAAM class, everyone of them upgraded optics and rifles. The hunting experience for these guys was vastly improved - THEY NOW KNEW THEY COULD HIT THE SPOT AND WHEN THEY HAD TO GET CLOSER!!!!!

A couple of points also:

1. Bullets are MUCH better today than fifty years ago. Doubt that any of the bullets Bell shot, were as good as the worst we have today.

2. It is still about shot placement, today as 100 years ago. Whether it be a rifle, small or large, or spear or arrow - without you put it inthe right spot - poor results. If you can bust that plate at 400 yards, in all conditions, everytime, that is not as much a stunt, as the rightful exercise of your skills. I shot more than one critter on the last safari, because I had the long shot in the repertoire. If you couldn't make it, you weren't going to take it. Once the PH knows you know your limits better thanhe, he usually gives you latitude on that shot selection.

3. Seriously, a 416 or 375 is all you NEED, you may want more, so have it. Once past 5000 ft pounds, I seriously doubt the ele is any more dead. If however, it punished you so bad that your marksmanship is affected, the outcome may still be in doubt. A 416 will penetrate very well, and is a lot less rifle to carry for MMBA. It's still back to shot placement......

Its a stunt if your doing it for me.

Stunts are meant to impress others. Evil Knievel didn't run his motorcycle at anything without a crowd around and the cameras rolling. How far did Evil jump? Evil didn't care, it was what others thought that mattered to him.

I was talking to a duck hunting friend on the phone this evening that was filling me in on this young fellow we know that is sponsored by this, that and the other merchandiser. Records videos of his hunts for whatever program and on and on. Is he hunting or is this "Entertainment Tonight"?

If it isn't a Stunt Hunt, don't make your concern and pursuit for my/ our approval so obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:


I was talking to a duck hunting friend on the phone this evening that was filling me in on this young fellow we know that is sponsored by this, that and the other merchandiser. Records videos of his hunts for whatever program and on and on. Is he hunting or is this "Entertainment Tonight"?

Good point Scott!!

When Joyce and I lived in your neck of the woods we made a trip to Round Island to see the Walrus haul out. Cool trip.

We met a professional photographer from Mississippi there for the last week of four weeks in Alaska. We saved his emotional life because we shared some cheese and crackers with him when he was down to Ramen Noodles only.

We started talking about photography. This was pre-digital so every shot ended up on film and you burned a lot of film and processing costs hoping for the one flying shot of a crowned Puffin worth publication.

I told him how cool it must be to travel around doing what he loves in these far off places. He looked at me dead eyed and said, "My electric has been turned off multiple times. my kids know how to live on peanut butter and crackers. I've had some great shots published and I used to love to shot pictures. Now it's a job and I'd trade with you in a heartbeat."

Whoa!! Made me realize. Be care what you wish for and certainly be careful about trying to use your passion as a means to make a living.

I would not trade places with Tim Herald or others I see on the Sportsman Channel.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

Stunts are meant to impress others. Evil Knievel didn't run his motorcycle at anything without a crowd around and the cameras rolling.
How far did Evil jump? Evil didn't care, it was what others thought that mattered to him.

Evil.K relied on a crowd to generate revenue and to earn an income, did he not?
He was a professional performer/entertainer, it was his job too do it for the crowd,
what he did is what they payed to see him do. It was expected of him.
....I think it was much the same with crack-shot Annie Oakley.....

some might even say clients pay to see PH-MS perform the task of shooting their DG for them,
and then entertain the public with a series of videos capturing & promoting such a commercial 'stunt'
...

Hi Jim, financial compensation is certainly a segment of my thought, but not its entireity.

If we're hunting for the approval of the paying public, its a stunt. If we're hunting for the approval of the record books, the guys at the gun shop or my friends here on AR, its a stunt. Years ago a felow came out here hunting with Rick Grant for spring bear and shot a 27 7/8" skull bear. Because the bear wasn't 28" and didn't meet the Boone and Crockett min., he left the hide and head with the guide and returned home "unsucessfull" as he saw it. "Stunt Hunting".

Sunday I head out for a week of wingshooting with the dog. This hunt in its totality is for the personal satisfaction of the dog and myself, I'm not sure which is 1st. Certainly I'll post a report on AR, but if its uniformlly critisized by my AR friends it won't bother me too much, I didn't hunt for them. I'm not into stunts.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

Evil.K relied on a crowd to generate revenue and to earn an income, did he not?
He was a professional performer/entertianer, it was his job too do it for the crowd,
what he did is what they payed to see him do. It was expected of him.
....I think so so did crack-shot Annie Oakley..... [/QUOTE]


I wouldn't have suggested otherwise. Evil K and Annie O were both entertainers and stuntmen. You asked about "Stunts" and we appear to be on the same page.

Good luck to both you and your dog!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Good luck to both you and your dog!

Very gracious of you Saeed, many thanks.

All indicators seem to suggest we'll be able to take good advantage of the migration of waterfowl. I hope to provide something along the lines of 200 retrieves for the dog in a week of hunting. "Babe" is just less than eight now and is of journeyman status. With your permission I'll flood the Bird Shooting and Dog Forum with her pictures in two weeks or so.

I would hunt DG with a spear or bow. And I would call that a stunt. And I believe a lot of PH's will too I had this exact conversation while in Africa. Especially if I had a TV show where I was trying to get compensated for said stunt. I wouldn't go in the thick stuff after a wounded DG animal solo with a spear or bow. But I would with a rifle. That would be the difference for me

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:


you know that a hopeless shot client can punch two holes in an elephants ear with his .600 nitro,
then have the PH deal with charging beast, and the paying client still goes into the SCI record books.
because theres a principle that says,the person who merely drew 'first blood', can claim the prize.

Its a real bugger when the PH is a hopless shot also in that situation ... And yes there is..

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:


you know that a hopeless shot client can punch two holes in an elephants ear with his .600 nitro,
then have the PH deal with charging beast, and the paying client still goes into the SCI record books.
because theres a principle that says,the person who merely drew 'first blood', can claim the prize.

Yet if one successfully hunts DG with spear- not requiring PH to finish it for you, one is accused of performing a stunt.




than a bunch of blowhards with bigbores, who in the heat of the moment cannot shoot for shit or be relied apon, to save their life or anyone else's.
If anything, its the over-rated relatively unskilled people with rifles chambered in cartridges they cannot handle, that manage to get a hunting party
into hairy situations.

again you failed to miss your chance with a couple of jealous stabs at those who have evidently done something that you havent

with such disdain, why bother even visiting this forum?

Is life really this boring?

Tim killed the buff with a spear, that much is fact. Some admired the hunt, some did not think it wise(even while they appreciated the difficulty) I am in the latter category. Let me throw a hypothetical out there for honest, well thought out response.
QUESTION: Lets imagine that on Tim's hunt, the spear had hit the bull,it spun into the hunters, the PH got off a shot but did not stop the bull who then got a horn into the PH, got him down and the mauling resulted in his death. Please, honestly as possible, tell me where this discussion would be headed. How would a spear hunt be received on this forum?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Tim killed the buff with a spear, that much is fact. Some admired the hunt, some did not think it wise(even while they appreciated the difficulty) I am in the latter category. Let me throw a hypothetical out there for honest, well thought out response.
QUESTION: Lets imagine that on Tim's hunt, the spear had hit the bull,it spun into the hunters, the PH got off a shot but did not stop the bull who then got a horn into the PH, got him down and the mauling resulted in his death. Please, honestly as possible, tell me where this discussion would be headed. How would a spear hunt be received on this forum?

I am sure there would be much hell raised.

IMO - it's no different - the staff go into it fully aware. Sure a few AR readers might be whipped into a (extra) frenzy.... but that's the www.

On AR life is never boring.We have experts arguing over almost every thing. For me AR is a window from where I can see and be a part of every hunt reported or learn from the advise of those who know better than me. Yet I am amazed why some people get cheesed with others. Let every body do their own thing as long as they pay the fees and follow the rules. Who is braver , who can shoot better does not really matter. As long as the hunter does not kill or injure his fellow companions or gut shoot a leopard, lion , buff or an elephant and then refuse to follow up, then its not sporting at all. Then you are not man enough to hunt these animals in the first place. You should stay at home and just surf the hunting sites. There is recorded incident in the Forest Record book of Sunderbon Forest about a wood cutter cleaving the head of a tiger with his axe, while it was trying to eat his dead father. Was it stunt ? No it was a desperate reaction to save his father. Would I go to the core area of Sunderbon forest with an axe ? Definitely no.The probability of me turning into tiger poo will 99.99 %. Pachapdi Gazi a forest guard during his service in Sunderbon shot over 37 man eating tigers with double barrel non ejector hammer gun , using LG or Slug. He was the most skilled tracker and the bravest hunter I ever came across in my life. I have never stepped inside outer core of that forest without a adequate rifle with me. Does it make me a coward ? May be to some it may. We all have our limitations. Being aware of these limitations can make like safer for all around us and with us during a hunt. If some one is paying to get injured and has the insurance to pay for the recovery then good for him. If he dies from those injury then bad luck. The Safari outfitters and the PH need the money so they let people do many things that they would not do themselves. I do not blame them. In this rat race if you say no there are others who will say yes. Gone are days of being gentlemen. We live in a world of You tube and Facebook, instant meals, we are pushed to make a fool of ourselves in the quest for recognition and futile glory. On the other hand if you really want to prove your metal then go alone without a PH backing up with a heavy rifle, do your stuff, we will all bow down and sing your glory till we live.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Tim killed the buff with a spear, that much is fact. Some admired the hunt, some did not think it wise(even while they appreciated the difficulty) I am in the latter category. Let me throw a hypothetical out there for honest, well thought out response.
QUESTION: Lets imagine that on Tim's hunt, the spear had hit the bull,it spun into the hunters, the PH got off a shot but did not stop the bull who then got a horn into the PH, got him down and the mauling resulted in his death. Please, honestly as possible, tell me where this discussion would be headed. How would a spear hunt be received on this forum?

Dave,

I'm in agreement with you. I admire the ability to do the hunt with primitive or in this case, extreme primitive weapons. And I'm an outspoken proponent of getting up close and personal with DG, even using a somewhat "limited" weapon system as in the open sighted double rifle.

The difference for me is that the weapon I choose is capable of stopping a potential charge, therefore the hunt is exactly what it is purported to be ... an up close hunt with a range limited weapon where a like capable weapon is employed for back up. Whenever the back up weapon is capably superior to the primary weapon used on the hunt, it becomes a stunt. JMO

Well said

quote:

Originally posted by MamunurRahman:
On AR life is never boring.We have experts arguing over almost every thing. For me AR is a window from where I can see and be a part of every hunt reported or learn from the advise of those who know better than me. Yet I am amazed why some people get cheesed with others. Let every body do their own thing as long as they pay the fees and follow the rules. Who is braver , who can shoot better does not really matter. As long as the hunter does not kill or injure his fellow companions or gut shoot a leopard, lion , buff or an elephant and then refuse to follow up, then its not sporting at all. Then you are not man enough to hunt these animals in the first place. You should stay at home and just surf the hunting sites. There is recorded incident in the Forest Record book of Sunderbon Forest about a wood cutter cleaving the head of a tiger with his axe, while it was trying to eat his dead father. Was it stunt ? No it was a desperate reaction to save his father. Would I go to the core area of Sunderbon forest with an axe ? Definitely no.The probability of me turning into tiger poo will 99.99 %. Pachapdi Gazi a forest guard during his service in Sunderbon shot over 37 man eating tigers with double barrel non ejector hammer gun , using LG or Slug. He was the most skilled tracker and the bravest hunter I ever came across in my life. I have never stepped inside outer core of that forest without a adequate rifle with me. Does it make me a coward ? May be to some it may. We all have our limitations. Being aware of these limitations can make like safer for all around us and with us during a hunt. If some one is paying to get injured and has the insurance to pay for the recovery then good for him. If he dies from those injury then bad luck. The Safari outfitters and the PH need the money so they let people do many things that they would not do themselves. I do not blame them. In this rat race if you say no there are others who will say yes. Gone are days of being gentlemen. We live in a world of You tube and Facebook, instant meals, we are pushed to make a fool of ourselves in the quest for recognition and futile glory. On the other hand if you really want to prove your metal then go alone without a PH backing up with a heavy rifle, do your stuff, we will all bow down and sing your glory till we live.

Really,
So killing a lion with a .22 WMR is not a stunt?

quote:

Originally posted by DTala:
it's a "stunt" if the pissaant complaining about it and calling it a stunt is incapable of doing it himself, and so therefore no one else is capable of doing it.

As Justice Potter Stewart once stated:

“I shall not today attempt further to define [obscenity]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it….”

Kind of the same with stunts while hunting.

We all do stunts in all walks of life
Welcome to human world of pride and prejudice
PH's in Africa wouldn't know what to do if all of us were crack shot
They guide us all year long , we do it on occasion so that's why we hire them and pay kings ransom