Todays African hunter has the advantage of numerous videos and African hunting shows. Gone are the days when you had to rely on biased opinions and incorrect recollections of hunts.

A couple things are really coming to light in this new evidence.

1) Way too many guys hunting with doubles are pulling the first trigger twice. I believe it was Buzz that said this is an issue with many clients. If reliability, safety, and speed really are the most important aspects then a single trigger double is CLEARLY the superior choice. Picking double triggers because if tradition and because John Taylor said it is like having two separate guns seems foolish. Todays hunter isn't in the bush for 6 months or earning his living on ivory. I have seen zero hunts ruined by a trigger malfunction but lots of missed second shots due to pulling the first trigger twice.

2) Fumbling with the bolt and not getting off a second shot. It is disturbing how many guys can not work a bolt action correctly while under pressure. Numerous hunters take 5,10,15 seconds and more to finally get another round in the chamber. I have yet to see anyone fumble a Blaser though. I know some hunters don't work the Blaser bolt with authority and get a click from not having it closed but I have yet to see it. As simple a thing as the traditional bolt action is it is getting screwed up with disturbing regularity. Lots of guys seem like they would be better served with the simpler Blaser action.

3) Missing the brain shot on Elephant. Dropping an elephant to a brain shot is an incredible thing but holy shit do a lot of guys screw this up, way more then half! The problem I have with this is the PH is killing your animal. Typically the client shoots and misses, then the PH fires and actually kills the animal, then if the client is lucky and doesn't pull the first trigger again or fumble his bolt he gets in a random shot into the elephant.

4) Many clients don't listen to the PH. I couldn't even begin to count the times a client doesn't shoot when the PH tells them and then shoots when the PH tells them not to shoot.

5) People lie like rugs on shot placement. Somehow I hit him a little low is a description for gut shooting an animal.

6) If an animal charges more often then not the PH is on his own because the client is bolting for the truck.

7) There is a reason the vast majority of PHs in Boddington's surveys want clients to bring a .375, too many guys can't shoot the big bores worth a damn. Sure you might be ok at the range but getting an overweight client in their later years to shoot well when worn out is difficult to say in the least.

8) Most of these clients have much more experience then the average client so these guys probably make fewer mistakes then the average client or AR poster.

9) The good clients make it look easy. There seem to be certain guys that just get the job done whether it is making the brain shot or quick follow up shots. These guys are not the norm.

10) You can't practice the fear factor. The best example of this was Jeff Rann's son on a recent episode of Dangerous Game. Obviously Jeff's son has lots of hunting experience and has been around doubles his whole life. On his first Elephant bull hunt he was carrying a 470 double. Jeff obviously thought his son could get the job gun because he left his double with his tracker. Well Jeff's son missed the brain shot and froze. I'm not sure if he pulled the front trigger again or just froze up but Jeff quickly called for his double because a second shot was needed and his son couldn't get one off. There are a LOT of lessons in this episode on the reality of being in the heat of the moment.

Wow, a great post! I have to say I agree with you on just about everything you said.

#3 #4 #9 were the best!

#3) I had one time 2 client hunters shoot for the elephant bull's brain. Both missed. The bull ran and I had to shoot it. Had I not, the bull would have got away and they pay the trophy fee. They did thank me however.

#4) The best one. I've had (many times) client NOT shoot when I fairly beggged them to, and shoot when I NEVER instructed them to shoot!

#9) Yes, Ive had a few clients who were really fantastic shots. They were totally familiar with their firearms and fast, accurate shots. Man, did they ever rack up the nice trophies!!

sorry...typing too fast.
#3 should read: they both missed the brain. the elephant was hit twice in the head.

Interesting post; though not quite sure re. the Blaser being better than a bolt action!

If hunting dangerous game (rather than plains game), I think the majority would trust a Mauser-type bolt than any Blaser.

I have both, and prefer the Blaser for non-dangerous game (mostly European hunts).

My Mauser 98 .505 Gibbs accompanies me for the big stuff.

Great post and all I can add to it is that virtually everything you've written can be applid to nearly every aspect of life where life and limb is in the balance. Whether it's driving your car, shooting a firearm, performing surgery, facing the enemy on the battlefield, competing in the Olympics etc.
Growing up, we called that kind of failure "choking".
In my experience those that are best at not choking are those with the ability to focus on the task and to stay focused under adversity.

I was thinking the same thoughts Friday night watching the Outdoor Channel's selections. The first was a guy who missed a leopard sitting on the ground. The second, a coyote. Neither hunter was old or out of shape. And they both had lots of time to aim. Buckfever perhaps. Or the glare of being video-taped. Whatever, it left me shaking my head wondering why these animals got crippled. PS...mr spots was found alive and given the coupe de grace. The yote ran off to die in a snow bank somewhere in Canada. Pitiful.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Todays African hunter has the advantage of numerous videos and African hunting shows. Gone are the days when you had to rely on biased opinions and incorrect recollections of hunts.

A couple things are really coming to light in this new evidence.

1) Way too many guys
2) It is disturbing how many guys can not work a bolt action correctly while under pressure. Numerous hunters
3) holy shit do a lot of guys screw this up, way more then half!
4) Many clients don't listen to the PH.
5) People lie like rugs on shot placement. Somehow I hit him a little low is a description for gut shooting an animal.
6) the client is bolting for the truck.
7) too many guys can't shoot the big bores .

The above statements are painting African hunters with a very broad brush. I hope this is not typical. Sure, the video evidence is there but does it represent the MAJORITY OF AFRICAN HUNTERS? I hope not.

quote:

Many clients don't listen to the PH. I couldn't even begin to count the times a client doesn't shoot when the PH tells them and then shoots when the PH tells them not to shoot.

I have a bit of a problem with this statement. The PH is not the one in final control when deciding when to shoot or not. A hunter should never shoot if the PH says not to, but when the go-ahead is given, it's still up to the hunter to make the final decision to pull or not pull the trigger. If the PH has a problem with that, to bad.

Originally posted by wrenchmaster:

quote:

A hunter should never shoot if the PH says not to, but when the go-ahead is given, it's still up to the hunter to make the final decision to pull or not pull the trigger. If the PH has a problem with that, to bad.

I agree with that. I acknowledge that it would be difficult for a PH not to give a 'Shoot' command when the opportunity, animal position etc, is optimum, but if the hunter isn't ready then it's wasted.
I can also see that it would add more pressure to an already pressured situation and the chance of the whole thing going pear shaped is increased.
It's probably a point that should be discussed between the PH and the hunter before a shot is fired.

The frontal brain shot on elephant is a much more difficult shot than most people realise. I really doubt that if you looked at PHs using the frontal you would see a much better success rate than 50% on the first shot.

465H&H

The frontal shot on eles is tough. Clients' percentages are way down there, right there with the PH's.

I am amazed that my single trigger Krieghoff 470 has not sold on Gunbroker. Go figure.

Most of today's hunters have no idea how to shoot without a dead steady rest; I am shocked how often I see tripods clamped to a rifle - give me a break. Anything less than 500 yards is easily taken shooting sitting with a sling. And you ought to be able to shoot game off the sticks standing on our feet out to 300.

You may want to add one more mistake: taking WAY TOO LONG to shoot. If game is inside 75 yards, you don't need the sticks. Just stand and shoot. Unless, of course, you are shooting a croc or leopard. Don't get me wrong; if the PH tells the trackers to set up the sticks, I figure we have time. If not, I don't ask.

I practiced today sitting at 500 yards with a sling (not that that has much application in Africa), sitting at 400, sticks standing at 300, and then sticks standing at 200. You don't need some fancy $4000 course; just get out and practice. I shoot at painted rocks, which give me instant feedback on wind drift.

IMHO I do not believe the majority of hunters fit the picture painted by GeofM24.

As a card carrying "old guy" I have never squeezed the front trigger of my double twice when things got really "sticky". While shooting my 416 is not pleasant, shooting it well is mental.

As for not listening to my PH I agree with Wrenchmaster. I turned down a 100 yd + shot at a nice buff for multiple reasons. It was almost dark, the bull was moving in and out of the herd, and I WAS NOT COMFORTABLE with the shot.

I see Geoff's post as a wake up call to myself. As I plan on using my double next time I go to Africa I know what to practice! Having said that, #4 does cover a multitude of issues. If the hunter is not comfortable with the shot, for whatever reason, then he should not take it. The only problem is if the hunter then blames the PH for his lack of success etc.
The frontal brain shot on an ele is something that I keep coming back to and still do not have a clear "visual" in my brain. Sorry, the "pole through the earhole" trick doesn't seem to work for me, especially with the upward angle!
Peter.

quote:

Jeff obviously thought his son could get the job gun because he left his double with his tracker. Well Jeff's son missed the brain shot and froze. I'm not sure if he pulled the front trigger again or just froze up but Jeff quickly called for his double because a second shot was needed and his son couldn't get one off.

Rann's tracker hands him a bolt rifle, not a double. Has a rather large scope on it too.

TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!!

You will never rise to occasion under stress you will only fall to the level of your training.

Bolt gun or double get out, OFF the range off the sticks get off the bench and shoot your rifle under field conditions or at the range under stress training drills or you will screw the pooch when the moment of truth comes along.

Shoot way more than you think you need and do so under varying and stressful conditions. I use my double exclusively for hogs and rabbits and busting rocks for this reason. My first double had WELL over a thousands rounds through it and a hundred or so hogs and jack rabbits galore to it's credit before it ever went to Africa. I could reload it so fast that it became instinct and was making every shot from a running snap shot at super close range to pinging hogs at 200 yards with ease. It became an extension of my body just like any other rifle I take DG hunting.

I train under stress in varying conditions with my hunting rifles just exactly like I do with my service weapon. Shooting under varying and stressful conditions, malfunction drills, reloads from varying positions, reloading while moving, scooting and shooting, shooting from various positions, this is the kind of stuff that only makes sense when getting yourself and your chosen weapon platform ready for DG hunting.

If you are not doing this stuff you are kidding yourself if you think you'll be ready when the moment of truth comes.

quote:

Originally posted by wrenchmaster:

quote:

Many clients don't listen to the PH. I couldn't even begin to count the times a client doesn't shoot when the PH tells them and then shoots when the PH tells them not to shoot.

I have a bit of a problem with this statement. The PH is not the one in final control when deciding when to shoot or not. A hunter should never shoot if the PH says not to, but when the go-ahead is given, it's still up to the hunter to make the final decision to pull or not pull the trigger. If the PH has a problem with that, to bad.

Agree! I've seen multiple posts here when a PH told someone to take a shot they weren't comfortable with and animals were wounded and lost.

As far as:

"Fumbling with the bolt and not getting off a second shot. It is disturbing how many guys can not work a bolt action correctly while under pressure. Numerous hunters take 5,10,15 seconds and more to finally get another round in the chamber."


I agree that's inexcusable, but a rushed shot is rarely better than no shot at all. My sons and i practice rapid fire at water jugs at 25 yards, it's fun and is great practice! If someone misses one or fumbles they take good natured crap from the others.

That aside, calm and deliberate under fire is the mantra I've taught my boys ...

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!!

You will never rise to occasion under stress you will only fall to the level of your training.

Bolt gun or double get out, OFF the range off the sticks get off the bench and shoot your rifle under field conditions or at the range under stress training drills or you will screw the pooch when the moment of truth comes along.

Shoot way more than you think you need and do so under varying and stressful conditions. I use my double exclusively for hogs and rabbits and busting rocks for this reason. My first double had WELL over a thousands rounds through it and a hundred or so hogs and jack rabbits galore to it's credit before it ever went to Africa. I could reload it so fast that it became instinct and was making every shot from a running snap shot at super close range to pinging hogs at 200 yards with ease. It became an extension of my body just like any other rifle I take DG hunting.

I train under stress in varying conditions with my hunting rifles just exactly like I do with my service weapon. Shooting under varying and stressful conditions, malfunction drills, reloads from varying positions, reloading while moving, scooting and shooting, shooting from various positions, this is the kind of stuff that only makes sense when getting yourself and your chosen weapon platform ready for DG hunting.

If you are not doing this stuff you are kidding yourself if you think you'll be ready when the moment of truth comes.

I agree 100%, and what's more if possibl more than 100%!

Now "surestrike" as your name also makes a lot of sence!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

At the Camp Fire Club in NY, which some of you may know is a pretty exclusive club, they have an annual big bore safari shoot, minimum 375 H&H. Our local NY, SCI chapter were invited for a few years as one of our member's was also a member of camp fire. It was always a nice event with some super $$$ guns on display. What was always apparent is that 95%+ of the shooters were totally out of or never were in form or familiar with their guns! Many of them couldn't even chamber a cartridge without jamming it or fiddling with it, let alone shooting the running lion and other fun targets.

As they say in the land of the blind one eyed man is king so I was High gun 3 years in a row, each year the silver plaque became smaller in size and then they stopped inviting me/us , bad loosers.

Very few people have the means to hunt in Africa every year, and there is nothing that can prepare you for live hunting experience of getting close up to an elephant, so the least you can do is practice like hell before you go. I agree with everything Geoff had to say.

I have no idea what Geoff is talking about.

Only fools are forced to learn from their own mistakes.

Sounds like Murphy's law?

Re not shooting when PH says shoot ... PH's, I wish you would never use that word. I prefer "green light" instead of "shoot!" The latter puts unnecessary pressure on the shooter, who must only shoot if he is good and ready. I always tell clients "Two green lights" is the correct metaphor.

Re double triggers, it's what you are used to. If you have used double shotguns with DT all your life, no problem. If not, then practice plenty before you go. And make the first one count! Most times you don't get an oppy for a good second shot, no matter how good you are.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I am amazed that my single trigger Krieghoff 470 has not sold on Gunbroker. Go figure.

It's the price, not the trigger.

Pratice, practice, practice, PRACTICE !!! TEN rounds on the range for every round in the field. I know of one client from way up north, who after five days went home with nothing, NIL, ZIP, NADA, NIKS!! There were a number of animals with varying degrees of tinitus, one, an impala ram at about twelve paces in thick bush. The poor animal got the full muzzle blast of a .300 Win Mag. I knew that they could jump, but that chap flew. The tip was more than good though, it paid for the much needed scotch.

1 2 7 are just training. In todays word very few will spend the time and money to train to get good at something. If it hurts a little even more reason not to.
I bought a double barrel shotgun before buying the rifles just too make sure I could become a custom to the sighing plane and double triggers. By a bolt action 410 and try some skeet with it. You will learn to work the bolt and to hit running game all at the same time. Learn to shoot with out sticks, then learn to shoot your big bore. Then train! train! train!

He forgot conditioning , get in shape , If there are medical problems preventing proper performance, find work arounds or be straight with your ph on what your limitations are.


JD

I have seen quite a number of very shooters make a real meal of shooting at animals.

I am not really sure why, may be because of some sort of perceived pressure from the onlookers.

I have heard some horror stories of why some people should really find anothersport to enjoy.

For example, the man who arrived in camp with one of those super accurate custom rifles.

He was only hunting plains game, so he brough only one rifle, in 300 Winchester magnum, and one box of ammo, also supplied by the rifle manufacturer.


First day out, he wounded a waterbuck, and proceede to fire a total of eleven shots to kill it.

Next animal was a black wildebeest, which required 7 rounds.

Luckily, he was in South Africa, and his PH was able to get him more ammo.

His PH told me, "he stopped enjoying himself sometimes during the waterbuck hunt. And he only started smiling as we were driving to the airport""

For me personally, #1 would be way off. If anything, with a single trigger gun, I would be pulling the rear of the trigger guard for the second shot. I've shot nothing but double triggers in my shotguns and double rifles all my life. Going to a single trigger would have the opposite effect for me.

Your #1 sounds like alot of folks shoot single triggers in everything else, and then when they get to Africa, they want to use the double trigger DR. Total familiarity and practice with your gun of choice is of the upmost importance.

Having the same trigger set-up (either single or double triggers) and similar safeties on all one's guns would make common sense and should be considered when selected one's firearms, whether for Africa hunting or anywhere else.

I haven't done Africa, yet, hope to this coming year with my son. I don't think I'll have a fear factor issue, one can never know until the situation arises. But I know I won't have an issue with familiarity and confidence with my firearms.

Mike

I can attest to nerves on the first shot I ever took in Africa a waterbuck at 100 yrds me on sticks and my nerves going a bazzilion miles and hour. yes I missed him three time!!! my Ph Steve soothed my frayed nerves and I was cured from then one. practice practice practice practice and pray for steady nerves on your first animal on your first safari. if that does not work pray for a Ph like Steve to talk you though it. as I have said many time before Thank You Steve

Why anyone would spend $20K or more for a safari and not be prepared is beyond me.
If you can't prepare by shooting your DG rifle enough, you owe it to yourself to have a lesser caliber (even a 22) with the same action/safety and shoot it a lot. I don't have a double but if I did I would have a 20ga shotgun with the same trigger/safety set up and that would be my quail gun.
A lot of firearms training does not require shooting. You can dry fire in your living room as you watch your favorite safari show on TV and get good practice. At least that would help with some of the operator error problems. While there is no substitute for shooting the rifle you actually plan on using on your safari, there is no excuse for being totally inept.

I agree with Geoffm24's observations. If you watch the last 2 Tracks Accross Africa you can see first hand what #4 and #5 in action. Gut shot lion from a dead rest at bow range.

Disagree with his Blaser advertisement. It may or may not be an easier action for an incompetant to use, but that misses the point. I suggest that you owe the game and the future generations of hunters if any, absolute competance with your firearm. There is no excuse for not cycling the bolt fast enough to make an average PH think you are shooting an automatic. Its just good manners if nothing else.

To be most usefull, a double gun must have double triggers. With regular practice using a double trigger shotgun you will not pull the front trigger twice on your double rifle. A bolt gun can be short stroked under pressure, even by someone very familiar with bolt guns. I say this because I have never pulled the front trigger twice on any double trigger rifle or shotgun. But I did short stroke a bolt action rifle I had been shooting for years. Fortunately, I was shooting at a wart hog. I was in a hurry because he was rapidly departing. There were rounds in the mag but none in the chamber. As a result of the short stroke the bolt did not pick up a round from the mag.

Don't underestimate the affect that the camera has on your nerves and ability to shoot. I was once on an episode of "Remington Country" where I had to shoot a Whitetail doe for a feeding program. I've shot hundreds of deer in my lifetime but take my word for it, with the Mossy Oak camera rolling and being wired for sound, that was the most nervous shot I ever took, and it was just a plain old doe. I pulled it off of course or it wouldn't have been broadcast, but believe me, I'll always respect those "on air" shots now.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Re not shooting when PH says shoot ... PH's, I wish you would never use that word. I prefer "green light" instead of "shoot!" The latter puts unnecessary pressure on the shooter, who must only shoot if he is good and ready. I always tell clients "Two green lights" is the correct metaphor.
_____________________________________________

You're correct. What I always do is this: On day 1 before any hunting is started, I tell the client: when i see its a good trophy, in good range / position to shoot, I will say "take him" or "Yes, go ahead" etc. Now understand I am only giving you the "GREEN LIGHT" to shoot. its all up to you to shoot or not. If you dont feel comfortable, then dont shoot. after all, You'll be the one paying the trophy fee on wounded animal."

The problem is that too many guys take way too much time to shoot, and thereby lose the Window of Opportunity. most phs complain about this. (Its especially irratating when its a monster size trophy). I do agree completely that a Ph should try to keep a client calm by NOT shouting "Shoot!" I learned over 10 years ago that some clients dont like this.

but clients need to practice how to get the crosshairs on the shoulder & squeeze off reasonably soon. experienced hunters do the job quickly, and inexperience hunters take much time mentally talking themselves into finally taking the shot. it does not take long for a ph to see who is really experienced hunter, and who is not. (I am not referring to long range difficult shots, but relatively close, easy ones).

We've all seen the guy who moves his eye back & forth trying to find the animal in his poorly fitted scope, then fumble around trying to remember where the safety is on his rifle! Unfortunatly, this is more common than you would think.

Trophy animals constantly change positions (especially feeding leopard!), and move to a difficult angle, or move behind a tree, etc. Sometimes non-target females, young, etc move behind or in front of the "target" animal. again, the window of opportunity is shut... sometimes never to open again.

I guess the old adage may apply: "Take your time...but do it quickly."

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The frontal brain shot on elephant is a much more difficult shot than most people realise. I really doubt that if you looked at PHs using the frontal you would see a much better success rate than 50% on the first shot.

465H&H

I left out a word in this post. It should read, "if you looked at PHs using the frontal, you would NOT see a much better success rate than 50% on the first shot."

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
To be most usefull, a double gun must have double triggers. With regular practice using a double trigger shotgun you will not pull the front trigger twice on your double rifle. A bolt gun can be short stroked under pressure, even by someone very familiar with bolt guns. I say this because I have never pulled the front trigger twice on any double trigger rifle or shotgun. But I did short stroke a bolt action rifle I had been shooting for years. Fortunately, I was shooting at a wart hog. I was in a hurry because he was rapidly departing. There were rounds in the mag but none in the chamber. As a result of the short stroke the bolt did not pick up a round from the mag.

Great point, I switched from a Browning Auto 5 to a double trigger sxs shotgun for pheasant hunting 3 years ago. I'll admit I still miss the second trigger now and again when a bird goes up. I will say pheasant hunting over flushing dogs, springers in my case, works as great practice because you never know exactly if and when a bird will flush.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:


Great point, I switched from a Browning Auto 5 to a double trigger sxs shotgun for pheasant hunting 3 years ago. I'll admit I still miss the second trigger now and again when a bird goes up. I will say pheasant hunting over flushing dogs, springers in my case, works as great practice because you never know exactly if and when a bird will flush.

Following buff in the Selous. I was about 4th in line and a damned francolin flushed right next to me. Before I realized what it was, the 375 was halfway to my shoulder and I was swinging on the bird.
Sure glad it wasn't a buffalo!

quote:

I shoot at painted rocks, which give me instant feedback on wind drift.

I can hit painted rocks offhand at 1000yards.
We will not discuss the size of the rocks though.



I honestly WOULD go to a shooting school. I am a proficient 4 position small bore shooter, and have done numerous long range competitions and while I am pretty good, I can always be better. We go to school to learn, there will always be someone better than any of us to teach. (Saeed excluded ) And if I had the extra 4G's to go to a shooting school to learn better fundamentals, I would.

You need the trigger time, BUT if you are doing something fundamentally wrong, your shooting will not improve. A quality school I believe can help a good shooter become a great shooter, or a great shooter become a fantastic shooter.

Everyone can always learn.

SB:

Fair enough, but I maintain you are far better off shooting on your own once a week than going to a school. Of course, if you can do both, what is to lose?

I know I need help when I go shoot a shotgun. My first try at skeet was a 3. No kidding. A guy walked up to me and said "You shoot rifles a lot, don't you."

"How did you know?" I asked.

"Because you are shooting that shotgun like you are shooting standing rifle," he said. At the time, I was shooting over the course quite a bit.

My point is, if you can ding a clay pigeon at 200 yards off the sticks 90 percent of the time in less than 20 seconds, I don't think you are going to get a lot out of school.

If you can roll a running jackrabbit more than 50% of the time, I think you should be teaching the class. On second thought, we don't shoot DG running unless wounded, so scratch that idea.

Like Boddington once said in print (and I don't agree with everything he says): before you go to a school, make sure the guys teaching it are better than you.

I am sometimes solicited by financial planners; they promise to help me increase my wealth. When they ask me my net worth, I always tell them to fax me a copy of their statement of net worth, and if it is higher than mine I will get back in touch. So far, no faxes. I guess the really good ones have better things to do than try and sell to me.

AZ Writer.
You say.

quote:

I am sometimes solicited by financial planners; they promise to help me increase my wealth. When they ask me my net worth, I always tell them to fax me a copy of their statement of net worth, and if it is higher than mine I will get back in touch. So far, no faxes. I guess the really good ones have better things to do than try and sell to me.

AZW
If a financial person did send a statement to you,they could likely lose their registration and face large fines. All out going correspondence must be filed and reported and one would never not document out going correspondence.

You are most likely not aware but you have asked them to break the statutes of all states and national regulatory agency's.

In your request for statement comparison you have not allowed for age,time comparison,return ,money invested and investment objective. Your request in much like shotgun and rifles or apples and oranges.
Like you,I do agree with Boddington on shooting.