Geo.
Excellent post. Although I am not quite in agreement with the single trigger. There is ample time to move finger to front trigger during recoil and recovery and that is simply a matter of the discipline of focused technique in training. Proper training, that is a key issue. Far to many confuse training and practice. An observation is that lots of people have trained wrong or poorly and then set about to practice that poor training and thus entrench bad shooting habits.

Under stress people revert to the training that they have received be it top notch or poor. Practice of poor training has but one result.

Andrew M.--
"I train under stress in varying conditions with my hunting rifles just exactly like I do with my service weapon. Shooting under varying and stressful conditions, malfunction drills, reloads from varying positions, reloading while moving, scooting and shooting, shooting from various positions, this is the kind of stuff that only makes sense when getting yourself and your chosen weapon platform ready for DG hunting." Andrew M.

Andrew . That is fitly spoken and good advice.

Elton

http://www.ftwoutfitters.com/Fliers/SAAM_Safari.pdf

Elton:

Not to get off topic, but the financial advisor I had sold me back end loaded funds and took a 1% fee. He sold me PFL and PCN as securities that would move opposite the stock market. A little digging on my end showed one was basically junk (moves with equities) and the other is a floating rate fund.

What is illegal about a planner sharing his personal results? Not those of his clients, but his own? I just googled it and couldn't find the law. Enlighten me please.

AZ,

I see your point. Luckily enough I have a range out to 380yds and if shooting from an elevated position about to 500yards. Not a bad deal. Water jugs are a fun way to practice and represent a pretty good vital area.

At the DSC show, there was an outfitter selling a cull hunt for 30 springbok for $2,750. I ALMOST booked the hunt. This would have been great opportunity to hunt Africa and get lots of trigger time.

quote:

Andrew M.--
"I train under stress in varying conditions with my hunting rifles just exactly like I do with my service weapon. Shooting under varying and stressful conditions, malfunction drills, reloads from varying positions, reloading while moving, scooting and shooting, shooting from various positions, this is the kind of stuff that only makes sense when getting yourself and your chosen weapon platform ready for DG hunting." Andrew M.

Andrew . That is fitly spoken and good advice.

Elton,

That was me who wrote that. Andrew M, was quoting it.

Thanks to both of you for commenting on it.

Surestrike.

Dear GeoffM24

Good topic to get the blood pumping.

Can not comment on the double rifle section as I can not afford one.

Mistakes pointed out are the kind I made on my first safari, I paid for at 17 years old. When I thought I knew every thing.
Read the posts and consider how to prevent them happing to you.

Practice, practice.
Before my last African safari in 2010, fired of 2000 rounds (mostly rim fire) as practice.
I do not take my rifle any more on safari. Sick of the paper work needed in Aussie.
This dose allow me to use rifles I would never other wise. This reinforces the need to practice.

Key positive points:
1. Get some life size targets, place a bush in front of it them. Then practice. (not on a bench) Turn the target at an angle as well.
I did not shot 1 animal out of 22 on the last trip, that walked out into a nice open grass land and stood broad side.

2. Practice with a friends rifle to get use to being in a different situation.

3. Get on every game animal ready to shoot. If the PH uses the Bino's get it in your gun sights. Then when he say's shoot you are already to go.

4. Get your wife to come along to a practice day. That will provide a distraction and some one that will tell you where you, have gone wrong. If you get through this then you are set for your safari.

Keep up the good post's.

I remember a PH once urging me to, SHOOT, SHOOT.

I didn't.

Why?

Because I couldn't see the bloody animal (Impala), that he and the tracker apparently could.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
1) Way too many guys hunting with doubles are pulling the first trigger twice. I believe it was Buzz that said this is an issue with many clients. If reliability, safety, and speed really are the most important aspects then a single trigger double is CLEARLY the superior choice.

I'm sure there's some truth to that. I've seen friends and aquantences do it while casually shooting on the range. You could imagine switching to the second trigger would go right out the window when actually excited and hunting. I think it has less to do with the design and more to do with practice. If you've never spent much time around doubles, suddenly aquire one, and then shoot it sparingly you're asking for problems. I grew up shooting a double trigger SxS shotgun, so going back to the second trigger on my double or a friends for that matter is second nature. As for switching triggers slowing you down. I'll have to agree to disagree. The time it takes to move your finger back is a fraction of the time it takes to come out of recoil, visually aquire your target, and then aim.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:
I remember a PH once urging me to, SHOOT, SHOOT.

I didn't.

Why?

Because I couldn't see the bloody animal (Impala), that he and the tracker apparently could.

I had the same thing happen to me. There was a branch hanging down from a tree. When they set up the sticks, I was behind this single branch, the tracker and the PH were both off to the side. They could see it, and I couldn't see it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have seen quite a number of very shooters make a real meal of shooting at animals.

I am not really sure why, may be because of some sort of perceived pressure from the onlookers.

I have heard some horror stories of why some people should really find anothersport to enjoy.

For example, the man who arrived in camp with one of those super accurate custom rifles.

He was only hunting plains game, so he brough only one rifle, in 300 Winchester magnum, and one box of ammo, also supplied by the rifle manufacturer.


First day out, he wounded a waterbuck, and proceede to fire a total of eleven shots to kill it.

Next animal was a black wildebeest, which required 7 rounds.

Luckily, he was in South Africa, and his PH was able to get him more ammo.

His PH told me, "he stopped enjoying himself sometimes during the waterbuck hunt. And he only started smiling as we were driving to the airport""

We fail as hunters when we come to believe that good hunting is the product of better equipment and larger trophies instead of sharper skills and difficult quarry.

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Re not shooting when PH says shoot ... PH's, I wish you would never use that word. I prefer "green light" instead of "shoot!" The latter puts unnecessary pressure on the shooter, who must only shoot if he is good and ready. I always tell clients "Two green lights" is the correct metaphor.
_____________________________________________

You're correct. What I always do is this: On day 1 before any hunting is started, I tell the client: when i see its a good trophy, in good range / position to shoot, I will say "take him" or "Yes, go ahead" etc. Now understand I am only giving you the "GREEN LIGHT" to shoot. its all up to you to shoot or not. If you dont feel comfortable, then dont shoot. after all, You'll be the one paying the trophy fee on wounded animal."

The problem is that too many guys take way too much time to shoot, and thereby lose the Window of Opportunity. most phs complain about this. (Its especially irratating when its a monster size trophy). I do agree completely that a Ph should try to keep a client calm by NOT shouting "Shoot!" I learned over 10 years ago that some clients dont like this.

but clients need to practice how to get the crosshairs on the shoulder & squeeze off reasonably soon. experienced hunters do the job quickly, and inexperience hunters take much time mentally talking themselves into finally taking the shot. it does not take long for a ph to see who is really experienced hunter, and who is not. (I am not referring to long range difficult shots, but relatively close, easy ones).

We've all seen the guy who moves his eye back & forth trying to find the animal in his poorly fitted scope, then fumble around trying to remember where the safety is on his rifle! Unfortunatly, this is more common than you would think.

Trophy animals constantly change positions (especially feeding leopard!), and move to a difficult angle, or move behind a tree, etc. Sometimes non-target females, young, etc move behind or in front of the "target" animal. again, the window of opportunity is shut... sometimes never to open again.

I guess the old adage may apply: "Take your time...but do it quickly."

Agree completely! And I want to thank GeoffM24 for starting an excellent and thought provoking discussion ...

Chuck

Great post! I agree wholeheartedly with the point that most hunters take too long to get the shot off. You see it on the Outdoor Channel all of the time. And I am always screaming at the T.V.: shoot! shoot! shoot! as you hear the music build and build! Another truism is the shot placement issue. On T.A.A. recently, a gentleman clearly gut shot a lioness that was sitting, with a scoped rifle at fairly close range, and on another show an Alaskan hunter flank shot a moose with his second shot, but only after making a poor first shot by waiting way too long to take the first shot.

Anyone see the guy break down while working his rifle today when following up his cape buffalo on Magnum TV? Ouch!!! I'm not sure if it was just buck fever or buck fever and lack of practice?

Brett

Decades ago, I saw an episode of "American Sportsman". I believe it was after my first African experience. It involved John Connally, who had been Governor of Texas, and an assortment of other cabinet level jobs in various administrations.

This was the same John Connally who was in the open car with John Kennedy in Dallas when he was assasinated.

He was shown flying into camp somewhere in Africa, being shown a .460 Weatherby, asking what it was, having it explained to him and then taking it out and downing a tusker with a frontal brain shot, all apparantly with no preparation. The viewer was left with the impression that the shot at the elephant was the first (and last) shot he ever fired with the rifle.

John Connally was not shown actually shooting the rifle, but the shot of the elephant, with the dust flying off its head on the impact of the bullet, was spectacular. I always wondered who really shot the elephant.


I suppose my experience would represent the opposite extreme of Connally's. I had my first African rifle, a .458 Winchester Magnum, built twelve years before I actually made it to Africa. In the intervening years I put hundreds of rounds through that rifle, mostly lead bullet reduced loads. I would walk around the farm, spot a rock or a stump out of the corner of my eye, turn on it and empty the magazine, then immediately reload.

Over time, in consultation with my friend John Buhmiller, I gradually increased the power of the rifle I was shooting until I was using a wildcat .505, built with one of John's barrels, firing a 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps. with a full load. Mostly I practiced with reduced loads and lead bullets, as I had with the .458.

The payoff came when I shot my first elephant. This was in Kenya, on a sisal plantation near a game refuge, where the elephants were raiding the plantation at night and retreating into the refuge by day. My elephant had lingered too long, and was peacefully attacking a sisal plant when first encountered.

We managed to approach him without his taking notice, up to the point we were about 30 yards away, on his right side. My PH indicated for me to shoot and I did, aiming halfway between the eye and ear hole, as I had been instructed. The elephant went down with the shot, but now was struggling to get up. My PH joined in with his .470 DR, and I continued to shoot until my magazine was empty, now aiming for the heart.

At first I was incensed that the PH had shot, until he explained that we were only about 100 yards from the border of the refuge, and if the elephant had made it over the line, we probably would never be able to recover it. This was the only time my PH ever fired at one of my animals.

The interesting phenomenon was my reaction to this highly charged experience. My hunter asked me how I had felt about the blood curdling scream the elephant had give out when first hit. I realized that not only had I not heard the scream, I had not heard the shots going off, either. However, before this happened, I had been standing looking at the downed elephant, when it occurred to me that I should reload. I opened the bolt on my rifle and was astonished to find that not only was there a round in the chamber, but the magazine was full. Then I looked on the ground and saw four empty cases. It finally dawned on me that I ahd immediately reloaded out of habit, and had not even been aware of it at the time.

Here I am, still looking somewhat dazed from the experience.



I had met my PH at the Game COIN convention in San Antonio the previous spring. He had then visited me in my home in Nashville. Consequently, he had seen my accumulation of guns and confirmed my ideas as to what was appropriate to bring on the hunt, which was to last five weeks, the minimum time for a rhino license. I would be bringing my .505, my Krieghoff Teck .458 WM double rifle, with interchangeable barrels in .375 H&H and 20 gauge 3" magnum, plus my pre-64 Model 70 Winchester in .300 H&H Magnum.

As luck would have it, a neighbor of mine down the road, whom I had never met, had used my PH on a trip some years previously. As I later found out, this client, who was almost totally unfamiliar with rifles, had missed a standing shot at a kudu some fifty yards away, because he couldn't find him in the scope! He had also missed a shot at a leopard only forty yards from the blind.

I went over in detail my experience as a Marine Corps high power team shooter, so in theory he knew what to expect.

Nevertheless, on the first day out in Kenya we were driving along a dirt road, when the PH suddenly stopped the car and pointed off to his right. "There's a kongoni which will be perfect for the boys' supper. Why don't you boff him?" I slipped out of my seat, took the Model 70 handed me by the gun bearer, followed him off into the brush. Suddenly he stopped and erected a tripod made of three long poles lashed together with a strip of inner tube. I immediately grasped the purpose, rested the rifle on it, just forward of the magazine, and squeezed off the shot. The kongoni cooperatively toppled over and I paced off the distance: 260 long paces. Previously I had promised myself not to shoot at anything beyond 200 yards, but I now hastily revised this to 300 yards.

My first use for the double rifle came on eland. We were stalking something else, when suddenly one hove into view on our right rear, striding along purposefully toward a water hole. He was over two hundred yards away, there was no way that I could shoot him off sticks or kneeling, so I finally sprawled across a very prickly thorn bush and fired a shot at his shoulder. He immediately turned and started directly away from us, so I gave him the second shot up the rear, whereupon he immediately went down. As it turned out, the first shot had been fatal, but had not had time to take effect. The second shot broke his hip. We later found the bullet in the hip socket, where it had shattered the ball joint.

I had been shooting skeet for years with over and under shotguns with single triggers. When the Krieghoff arrived, I started shooting skeet with it, using the 20 gauge barrels (and later shooting .410 shells through the .458 barrels). In no time at all I was thoroughly used to the double triggers. I went through the same reduced load, cast bullet routine with it as well. Since the stock dimensions were taken off my favorite skeet gun, there was no problem with instinctive shooting, either.

I was called upon to do some rapid fire shooting with a charging rhino later in the hunt, and I was able to empty my .505 into him and then reload one more round from my pocket to deliver a parting shot. He piled up about 100 yards away and was stone dead by the time we got to him.

Years of varmint hunting had taught me to acquire a sight picture and get the shot off in a controlled hurry, before the elusive target disappeared. This could be a groundhog close to his hole, or a crow perched on a solitary limb. Either way, the technique was the same, and it translated nicely into the African experience.

Hunting in Africa is a once in a lifetime experience and spoiling it by failing to properly prepare may turn it into life's greatest disappointment

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:
Interesting post; though not quite sure re. the Blaser being better than a bolt action!

If hunting dangerous game (rather than plains game), I think the majority would trust a Mauser-type bolt than any Blaser.

I have both, and prefer the Blaser for non-dangerous game (mostly European hunts).

My Mauser 98 .505 Gibbs accompanies me for the big stuff.

I read all the posts here, read the books and took the bait too. I built custom pre 1964 Winchesters, Mauser 98s etc because that is the thing to do. While doing this I bought and used some Sauer 202s and Blaser 93s. Low and behold the smoothest feeding, most reliable, fastest AND most accurate rifles were the Sauers and the Blasers by a long shot. I am 100% certain that any man who never read the old time books or visited sites like and purchased and used model 70s, Mausers, Sauers and Blaser would have more faith in the later then the former.

Sure the old CFR rifles have great history with the old timers but they are not more reliable, not even close actually.

More reliable, faster, and take down make a better DG rifle every time regardless of what Jack O'Connor shot.